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Thread: A little help from my friends please.

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    A little help from my friends please.

    Okay fellow MFers ... er ... Medium Formaters ...help me spend my budget:

    Here's the drill ...

    First off I think I'm sticking with Hasselblad ... Leica priced themselves out of the ball park with the S2, especially considering the fact I already have a complete Hassey H system.

    I explored the Phase System and it is far more financially viable, especially with the great trade-in promos and super support from Phase dealers and tech services.

    However, in the end, I use a waist level finder to often and am adding the HTS 1.5 ... have never liked the dual battery needs of the Phase ... and almost never need more than the 1/800th top shutter speed of the H ... more importantly I need high sync speeds for all my lenses from 28mm thru 300mm, not just some ... all personal preference and specific needs, and has absolutely nothing to do with which is better than the other.

    My current camera is a H3D-II/39 with only 2910 shots on it (studio work is rarely a matter of hosing off shots ... using live view, most jobs only require two or three shots to nail it) It has a hot swap Enhanced Flexcare warranty until the end of June 2010. The camera has been bullet proof on every shoot.

    But technology moves on.

    1) I can trade the H3D-II/39 for a H4D/60 that uses the Dalsa chip. This is just about a 1X crop factor (almost none), and is the only H choice featuring the newer 2X resolution LCD.

    2) Or for a little more money, I can secure a Certified H3D-II/50 Demo kit with 80/2.8 that has 6500 shots on it and 6 months Hasselblad standard "Depot" warranty PLUS a brand new H4D/40 without a lens ... but no trade-in is allowed on this deal ... I'd have to sell the H3D-II/39 myself.

    I'd estimate the difference at about $5,500. additional for the 2 camera set-up. (roughly $20K verses $25.5K after sale of the H3D-II/39 without lens at a fair market price). All funded by recent sales of all my V and Nikon gear.

    The H3D-II/50 uses a Kodak sensor, is a 1.1X crop factor, would be mostly used in studio and offers more than just 11 pixels more ... the newer sensor technology is reported to produce better color and cleaner files (hard to believe given how good the 39 is). The newer AF of the H4 is of less consequence in a studio environment IMO.

    The 1.3X crop frame H4D/40 is also a Kodak sensor using micro-lenses ... and would be used for high-end weddings, location work and anything that requires higher ISO performance (first looks at ISO 1600 appears to be excellent!). The True Focus innovation would be of great value here as would the improved focus assist light.

    3) The third choice would also require my selling the H3D-II/39 myself. It would be a Certified CF/39 Multishot that I would use on my current H2F camera for studio captures with full access to all Phocus software features AND on my complete RZ Pro system using an iAdapter, PLUS the H4D/40.

    This dual choice would be approx. the same cost as the H4D/60.

    At my age, this will most likely be my last big Hurrah! in MF movement, unless I win the Lotto


    What would you do?


    Thanks for any input,

    Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Tough choices here but first I would go for the latest tech here with the HD4 and the one thing I see if the 60 can do 1600 than it could certainly do studio and wedding. But like me the 40 itself is maybe the more versatile tool and you could use it in either place. The difference between Jacks and mine for instance is there but again your already at 40 and how much more do you need to go. Now if the 50 was a multi shot than i would go 50 and 40 so you have some real difference between the backs plus they could back each other up. Now if the HD4 60 has a good 1600 than it is a no brainer , I would just go for that with all the latest tech and body. You can still do weddings with it plus you still shoot the M9. Myself my P40+ kind of replaces the M9 in file size with sensor plus and I get a real clean 1600 binned. Now Jack could do the same with the P65 plus. I like the binning stuff but Hassy does not have that but it just makes it more versatile. Not sure the 50 buys you anything except you can use it in the studio does not have micro lenses and is a back up plus maybe a biggy here has the same sensor look. Tough call and can see why your asking the question which i would be also. let me think some more and come back , this requires 3 espresso's. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Marc not trying to switch your systems because I know how tough that is but if you went for a P65+ does it save you anything with a complete turn. It's just a lingering option to consider. Reason why is you can shoot it all with one back. The Hassy 60 may not have high ISO , that I don't know and i am not trying to suggest switching systems either but we have to look at all options out there.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Than on the other hand here the 40 alone maybe the better overall option in Hassy since it looks like a good 1600 and it can still do studio.

    Some of this also depends on your wedding work and how much **** you want to deal with. Are we going away from the M9 or staying with that for certain things and I think this plays a part in the decision. Me i have the P40 that will do all of the wedding work which i have one coming up. I can do all the real stuff at 40 mpx than switch to sensor plus for the reception stuff. Guess we look at theM9 as the sensor plus stuff in a sense.

    Sorry folks but thinking out loud and this is how I make these decisions and just did with the P40+. You have to throw all the stuff out there and decide what is making the most sense. Emotions don't count

    Going for espresso 2
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Now having said all that and i know you are just like me here when I retire all i want is a M9 and get rid of all this other stuff. But my retirement is with a freaking walking stick time frame. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Don't you guys ever sleep? :-)

    Anyway, Marc I would not presume to make any recommendation (being a good consultant) but you have the answer, just need to find it.

    I use something called "dominance thinking". Take a decision; say the H4/40 and then live with it; consider when it doesn't work. Does anything seem better? If after a week you can't change, then you're there.

    Only issue is oscillation; today H4/40, tomorrow thinking P65+, then back, and forth..

    There is a decision making device... in your pocket, small disk :-)

    Flip it to decide.

    THEN if you get a warm feeling inside for the winning side go for it; if you get a little fi brilation in your heart, then the loser of the flip is the choice you should make.

    An of course, no decisions are worth a damn without a good french wine LOL
    ALl the best,
    Victor

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Hi Marc,

    I believe timing needs to be considered here as well. We can certainly
    expect some photokina '10 promotion from Hasselblad (remember photokina '08?). It probably doesn't affect the H4D-40 too much since this seems the
    new entry model and the price is already fairly aggressive IMO.

    But i wouldn't buy into a 50 or 60 now if not absolutely required and necessary for the job.

    So the big question is what you will get for your H3DII-39 now compared to September this year. If you believe its a significant difference i would replace
    the H3DII-39 with the H4D-40 and then wait for photokina.
    Otherwise i would just stick with the H3DII-39 for now and wait what these
    guys have to offer later this year, then go for a H4D-40 plus 50 multishot or
    60.

    The option with the CF-39 sounds odd to me.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents, not an easy decision for sure.

    Regards,
    Ralf

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Maybe the two back setup is the way togo. First you have two systems that back each other up. The H40 makes much more sense for the wedding stuff than any other Hassy out there plus you get the new body and 40 mpx is plenty of file for sure, it appears it does a nice 1600 and most likely the fastest back in the Hassy line. Certainly a welcome feature.

    The 50 may or may not be needed so much for the studio since you have the 40 but it does not have micro lenses which would be a better studio back, you get a little extra res. and certainly serves as a back plus your using the same Kodak sensor in both.

    Now the HD60 if it can do all that the two backs can do together you save some money. If it has the shooting speed of the 40 and the high ISO of the 40 than it maybe a better choice and this one has a Dalsa sensor which on a tech camera maybe a better option in the studio and obviously you get the biggest dog out there, which I know you being a gear slut like me is kind of cool.

    The big question and maybe David can address it is shooting speed , high ISO and does it match the 40 in these regards. Also the look of the Dalsa maybe different
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Keep it coming Guy! Good points made. Get that next Espresso in you and crank it up. I'm on double coffee number 3 already. Buuzzzzzzz

    The new H4D/40 does full resolution 1600 ... and apparently really does it well ... a visible improvement over my previous crop frame H3D-II/31 which already did an acceptable job at 1600 if care was taken in exposures ... not much leeway there though. The H4D/40 seems next generation better from what I've seen so far.

    I can't recall seeing a full resolution studio shot using strobes that was done with a 60 meg Dalsa sensor. The assumption being that the Phase will be similar to the Hassey (give or take). I think the H4D/60 version will top out at 800, and I've no idea how good it will be.

    I use MFD at weddings where it's outdoors, or when using off-camera lighting indoors during formals. I'm interested in the H4D AF improvements which may increase the wedding applications some.

    A single choice over the H4D/60 would be a H4D/50 Multi-Shot @ about a $5,000 premium. However, a M/S is a bit more awkward and heavier than a non-M/S for applications like a wedding or location shoot with talent ... and adding a H4D/40 would exceed the budget to much.

    The M is for reception candids, and is irreplaceable for those type of available light shots (24/1.4, 50/0.95, 75/1.4) ... I'll never get down to just one system unless it IS the M which is unlikely since it really isn't suited to on camera flash work.

    I'd say my leaning is back toward my original H4D/60 decision which most likely will meet or exceed any requirements in future, distance itself clearly from any 35mm progress, and has the better LCD. But it will not be an ISO performer.

    Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmueller View Post
    Hi Marc,

    I believe timing needs to be considered here as well. We can certainly
    expect some photokina '10 promotion from Hasselblad (remember photokina '08?). It probably doesn't affect the H4D-40 too much since this seems the
    new entry model and the price is already fairly aggressive IMO.

    But i wouldn't buy into a 50 or 60 now if not absolutely required and necessary for the job.

    So the big question is what you will get for your H3DII-39 now compared to September this year. If you believe its a significant difference i would replace
    the H3DII-39 with the H4D-40 and then wait for photokina.
    Otherwise i would just stick with the H3DII-39 for now and wait what these
    guys have to offer later this year, then go for a H4D-40 plus 50 multishot or
    60.

    The option with the CF-39 sounds odd to me.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents, not an easy decision for sure.

    Regards,
    Ralf
    Good thinking! Sell/lease w/purchase the H3D-11/39 while it's attractive, and has 4 months of premium warranty.

    BTW, the CF39 is a Multi-Shot and would work across camera platforms. It's my least favorite choice ... if it was a CF-II/39 MS I'd be more interested. Hasselblad seems to be smoking the drapes on CF and CF-II pricing, or they don't care if they sell any.

    -Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Don't you guys ever sleep? :-)

    Anyway, Marc I would not presume to make any recommendation (being a good consultant) but you have the answer, just need to find it.

    I use something called "dominance thinking". Take a decision; say the H4/40 and then live with it; consider when it doesn't work. Does anything seem better? If after a week you can't change, then you're there.

    Only issue is oscillation; today H4/40, tomorrow thinking P65+, then back, and forth..

    There is a decision making device... in your pocket, small disk :-)

    Flip it to decide.

    THEN if you get a warm feeling inside for the winning side go for it; if you get a little fi brilation in your heart, then the loser of the flip is the choice you should make.

    An of course, no decisions are worth a damn without a good french wine LOL
    ALl the best,
    Victor


    A coin flip is probably as good as any decision I'd make right now Victor!


    Ouch, GAS pains.


    -Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Keep it coming Guy! Good points made. Get that next Espresso in you and crank it up. I'm on double coffee number 3 already. Buuzzzzzzz

    The new H4D/40 does full resolution 1600 ... and apparently really does it well ... a visible improvement over my previous crop frame H3D-II/31 which already did an acceptable job at 1600 if care was taken in exposures ... not much leeway there though. The H4D/40 seems next generation better from what I've seen so far.

    I can't recall seeing a full resolution studio shot using strobes that was done with a 60 meg Dalsa sensor. The assumption being that the Phase will be similar to the Hassey (give or take). I think the H4D/60 version will top out at 800, and I've no idea how good it will be.

    I use MFD at weddings where it's outdoors, or when using off-camera lighting indoors during formals. I'm interested in the H4D AF improvements which may increase the wedding applications some.

    A single choice over the H4D/60 would be a H4D/50 Multi-Shot @ about a $5,000 premium. However, a M/S is a bit more awkward and heavier than a non-M/S for applications like a wedding or location shoot with talent ... and adding a H4D/40 would exceed the budget to much.

    The M is for reception candids, and is irreplaceable for those type of available light shots (24/1.4, 50/0.95, 75/1.4) ... I'll never get down to just one system unless it IS the M which is unlikely since it really isn't suited to on camera flash work.

    I'd say my leaning is back toward my original H4D/60 decision which most likely will meet or exceed any requirements in future, distance itself clearly from any 35mm progress, and has the better LCD. But it will not be an ISO performer.

    Marc

    HD4/60 Since the wedding stuff is outdoors 40 or 60 would not matter and than you have a killer studio cam as well. Plus a bigger LCD and also high ISO will not matter for you on the weddings. I have to go dually if you know what I mean. Eventually i will go P65 but that is a ways out. My one issue with the P40+ and maybe the same on the Hassy is the crop factor in the finder not the back but the finder. I sometimes crop to tight since I see so much room outside the lines. If it was like the P25 frame lines i would be happier. Might have to look at a chart to see what I mean. See if I can find one. The HD4/40 maybe the same look in finder. BTW i am trying to get a HD40 to review.

    See I would like the P45 cropping in finder here. Wonder how Hassy finder is in relation to this
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Maybe the two back setup is the way togo. First you have two systems that back each other up. The H40 makes much more sense for the wedding stuff than any other Hassy out there plus you get the new body and 40 mpx is plenty of file for sure, it appears it does a nice 1600 and most likely the fastest back in the Hassy line. Certainly a welcome feature.

    The 50 may or may not be needed so much for the studio since you have the 40 but it does not have micro lenses which would be a better studio back, you get a little extra res. and certainly serves as a back plus your using the same Kodak sensor in both.

    Now the HD60 if it can do all that the two backs can do together you save some money. If it has the shooting speed of the 40 and the high ISO of the 40 than it maybe a better choice and this one has a Dalsa sensor which on a tech camera maybe a better option in the studio and obviously you get the biggest dog out there, which I know you being a gear slut like me is kind of cool.

    The big question and maybe David can address it is shooting speed , high ISO and does it match the 40 in these regards. Also the look of the Dalsa maybe different
    The shooting speed of the 60 is an unknown ... the 40 is quite fast. I do not think ISO 1600 is in the cards for the 60 Dalsa. Probably 800. We'll see what they can do with firmware/software.

    Having had a Aptus 75s (that Jim C. now applies his considerable talents with great results), I'm familiar with the subtile differences in "look"
    between Dalsa and Kodak. Either are fine. I leaned toward Dalsa for people and environmental applications and Kodak for studio product works with strobes ... but frankly it's half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. I recall the Dalsa ISO 800 being pretty impressive, but that was before Hassey improved the 39 meg backs and upped it to ISO 800 also.

    What's a MFer to do

    -Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Looking forward to your opinion on the HTS..as for more megapixels 39 is more than enough for me...anyway its your hard earned spend it the way you want to to - however there is always next years even better model to look forward to and then the one after that and the one after that and ....

    arTec with 23/40/90 is my preference.30-40 megapixels is just fine hangin off this set-up oh and a nice new 500 series body to go with some glass i recently picked up from someone ..

    Cheers

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The shooting speed of the 60 is an unknown ... the 40 is quite fast. I do not think ISO 1600 is in the cards for the 60 Dalsa. Probably 800. We'll see what they can do with firmware/software.

    Having had a Aptus 75s (that Jim C. now applies his considerable talents with great results), I'm familiar with the subtile differences in "look"
    between Dalsa and Kodak. Either are fine. I leaned toward Dalsa for people and environmental applications and Kodak for studio product works with strobes ... but frankly it's half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. I recall the Dalsa ISO 800 being pretty impressive, but that was before Hassey improved the 39 meg backs and upped it to ISO 800 also.

    What's a MFer to do

    -Marc

    We need more data on the 60 than. You will need some decent shooting speed here. At least as fast as the strobes outside can go
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Marc,

    As you know I have no commercial interest in photography...it is just the black hole that consumes a fair amount of my time and capital. With that in mind I must be the odd man out because of the trades the H4D 50 MS makes a bit more sense to me.

    I cannot imagine a better combination of IQ - especially in the studio with the HTS. True focus at 50 for single shot and higher multishot when needed...it will probably beat the 39MS by a fair margin. While you may lose a stop or two in exposure latitude it does not seem that your wedding photography has suffered to this point...at least on the basis of the pictures you has shared.

    I imagine that in a couple of years all of the Uncle Bobs (Not a relation of mine!) may make your wedding photos less rewarding. I can imagine a setting of formal wedding pictures isolated from the masses with the H4D 50MS - Profoto or Hensel lights, and the more spontaneous moments captured with a M9 and A900 replacement (Higher ISO?).

    Your advantage with the H4D 50MS is known technology massively great IQ easy tradeup and all the advantages of the H4D improvements...plus all of your lenses are dialed in and functional. Now the H4D 60 may match resolution but I know you would value the MS advantages.

    I anticipate that this has given you a number of less than restful nights...as you have said many times - no one camera or back will meet all needs perfectly. Our difficulty now is the options extant are not differentiated well enough to make the choices simple.

    I, like many here, will be interested to hear your decision and see the results.

    Bob

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    some more thoughts to muddy up the water

    First I would convert the H3D2-39 to cash sooner than later.
    As for the H4D-60, I have been told first hand that Hassy has been having teething problems with it (and with Dalsa), This was part of why they decided to go back to using Kodak for the 40, and why there is still no 60 as a H3D2 or H4D.
    For me personally, I would want to see the 60 perform in the real world first before committing my $. ( not that I'm saying it will not perform )

    I briefly handled the H4D-40 at the launch, TF is excellent and works. (took my own captures on my CF card).
    So if I was in your shoes, I would sell/trade the H3D2-39 to the H4D-40 and then wait to see what happens at fotokina this year and what the user reports are on the H4D-60.
    I think the 40 would be more than capable of double duty in the interim.
    I can understand a 60 and 40 in the same case or a 50MS and a 40 (my own first choice), but I'm not sure a Reg 50 and 40 would be that far apart to justify the investment, of course this is just my 2c.

    completely OT, but it really is a shame that Leica priced the S2 too high and ship it with lame Tethering.

    Don't worry these decisions are never easy as many here know.
    good luck
    am

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Option (4)

    Keep your mint H3DII39, it works!

    You must have pretty high end wedding clients if they will appreciate anything above your current set up

    I would put that money in the bank! Boring I know, but who knows when a rainy day is coming along....

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    some more thoughts to muddy up the water

    First I would convert the H3D2-39 to cash sooner than later.
    As for the H4D-60, I have been told first hand that Hassy has been having teething problems with it (and with Dalsa), This was part of why they decided to go back to using Kodak for the 40, and why there is still no 60 as a H3D2 or H4D.
    For me personally, I would want to see the 60 perform in the real world first before committing my $. ( not that I'm saying it will not perform )

    I briefly handled the H4D-40 at the launch, TF is excellent and works. (took my own captures on my CF card).
    So if I was in your shoes, I would sell/trade the H3D2-39 to the H4D-40 and then wait to see what happens at fotokina this year and what the user reports are on the H4D-60.
    I think the 40 would be more than capable of double duty in the interim.
    I can understand a 60 and 40 in the same case or a 50MS and a 40 (my own first choice), but I'm not sure a Reg 50 and 40 would be that far apart to justify the investment, of course this is just my 2c.

    completely OT, but it really is a shame that Leica priced the S2 too high and ship it with lame Tethering.

    Don't worry these decisions are never easy as many here know.
    good luck
    am
    Now this changes the scenery. No question having a 40 Mpx back myself it is more than capable and is a far above the P45+ in my case which is the same sensor for the H39. I would certainly switch over to the 40mpx . Much faster back and much better ISO. I would do this than see what becomes of the 60 and Photokinia . This will certainly hold you until than with the 40. My decision to go to the 40 was a very good one. I would get out of the 39 while you still had a salable warranty on it. H39 for sale see B&S . LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    I have to also add that right now I think the 40MPX backs from all the camps are at a sweet spot of resolution vs speed vs ISO.
    Partly because the Dalsa (leaf/phase) can be used on a view/tech camera and the H4D-40 also apparently plays really nicely with the HTS ( I don't have any hands on knowlage of this, but even with micro lenses, the HTS does a good job with the H3D2-31 )
    for my own rentals I have always liked the P30+ and the H3D2-31 and I think the 40's are a nice natural progression to them.
    hence I think the 40 would do a good job of holding down the fort till the bigger back arrives.
    am

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Marc,

    I don't have much to add except some comments on Kodak v Dalsa rendering. First, I'd say the difference is small, and will probably go unnoticed by the majority of your clients in a print. However, I am equally certain it won't go unnoticed by you...

    To my eye, the color is smoother, and offers visibly better distinction of hues in the green palette, and to a small extent this carries into the the blues. What becomes noteworthy here is then the B&W conversions -- where there is then more and/or smoother tonal gradations within a given area (better "inter-tonality" ?) rendered by the Dalsa. For whatever reason, it is also easier for me to maintain better visible separation in stronger highlight areas with my Dalsa back.

    I have read where other folks claim the Dalsa is more film-like. I understand why they say that, but hesitate to use that analogy myself. I will say the Dalsa file appears more "organic" and natural looking than the Kodak, which appears more digital. Of course I have no idea if these traits hold in the Hassy line, but I suspect they would.

    My honest answer to you is there any way you can visit a dealer that has all of these options available, and spend a day or so creating files, then a week or so analyzing the performance for your needs? A 2-back solution sounds nice, but my experience is you'll either never have the back mounted you want to be using, so a time suck deciding and mounting whichever. Or you will ALWAYS migrate to one of them over the other, favoring some aspect or aspects, so the other is a wasted expenditure.

    If the 60 had multi-shot and pixel binning, you'd be set...

    Offered IMO only...

    PS: Here is one image from my P65+ that I think conveys my green and highlight comments. This is a single capture, shot toward a full Sun, which is not in the image directly but is reflecting off the water. As such, the undersides of the cars are in deep shadows as can be seen. The grass is new, so contains varying hues of green and yellow. Not the greatest image, and much has been lost in the sRGB jpeg conversion, but perhaps you can see in it what I'm trying to explain above. I believe this same image captured by my P45+ would have rendered more consistent bluer greens, and not held the varying highlights in the specular reflections off the river mud as well:

    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Summary:

    1) H4D/60.
    Pros: 1x crop, resolution, simple system.
    Cons: 1 egg in your basket, risky chip, slower/lower ISO than H4D-40.

    2) H3D-II/50 + 80/2.8, H4D/40
    Pros: ISO, speed, backup system.
    Cons: Not much difference between 40 and 50MP, expense.


    3) CF-39 MS on H2F, H4D/40
    Pros: ISO, speed, studio resolution, alternative cameras.
    Cons: Not a true backup, pricing/upgrade structure.

    From these three options, I don't really see one which is head-and-shoulders above the others. Each has advantages and disadvantages. There are some other potential constellations though:

    4) H4D-40
    Pros: ISO, speed, single body/back system, money to put into something else.
    Cons: no backup, no super-high-res solution.

    5) H4D-40, H3DII-39/50 MS
    Pros: ISO, speed, resolution, backup system.
    Cons: price.

    I would say get the best trade-in deal on the H3DII-39 towards the H4D-40, and use that for a while. Keep a rental phone number in your pocket in case. Keep an eye on your studio resolution needs, and if you really need more than 40MP, find the best deal you can on an H3DII-39/50 MS.
    Carsten - Website

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Pretty interesting at least for me is it all came down to the 40. Guess i did okay myself.

    I think until the 60 is out and the data on specs is real than I would not buy on spec. Hell we all have been burned on spec on something or other in MF, 35mm and RF

    Even though the 40 just is hitting the streets from me at least i have more faith in it right now. I guess owning a 40 helps
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Lets summarize;

    You want the 40. That is more or less set in stone since you would like to use the better high ISO & the better AF.

    You want a MS back for studio work. I use multishot very often, though I find the 16MP, 22MP & the 39MP are pretty similar in IQ (the resolution is basically the only difference). The Ixpress multishot backs I would exclude since they do not have the CA correction from DAC. This would definitely limit you to the CF22MS, 39MS or the H4D50MS.

    I have a CFII39MS & a CF39. The difference in the screens is negligible, they both suck. OTOH, when you have them for multishot usage you do not use the screen!

    If I were in your position I would get the cheapest deal that would ensure me I got the 40 + a MS back no matter which MS back as long as you have DAC (22MS, 39MS or the 50MS).

    I lust for the H4D50MS. If I can get a great deal for it I will certainly go for it but I don't need it. The 39MS is more than adequate.

    Or...

    get the H4D50MS but realize you lose over a stop on the ISO side.

    I totally understand your dilemma. As you know I am pretty much in the same boat with the only difference being that I already own a MS back. I could not do without that. It has earned itself back several times within the first year I had it. YMMV.

    I know what will happen if I would go for the H4D50MS. I would feel forced to get a second comparable (or the same) back as a backup. If you recognize this sentiment don't kid yourself than you know it will turn out twice as expensive.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    side note
    I just want to put this out there so there is no confusion.
    All I know is it's taken Hassy a bit more to integrate the Dalsa chip.
    While I'm one of those people who likes to test drive before I buy, I don't want to cast any un-certinaty on the final product, it may turn up to be brilliant, as proven by Phase in the P65+
    thanks
    am

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    side note
    I just want to put this out there so there is no confusion.
    All I know is it's taken Hassy a bit more to integrate the Dalsa chip.
    While I'm one of those people who likes to test drive before I buy, I don't want to cast any un-certinaty on the final product, it may turn up to be brilliant, as proven by Phase in the P65+
    thanks
    am
    My experience is that Hassey releases few mistakes to customers, preferring being late to market.

    The one exception to this was the ill fated H2D/22 that shot DNG files straight from the camera ... which was infested with hidden bugs. Hassey promptly replaced my camera with a new one that shot 3F RAW, and added a free 3 year Hot Swap warranty for the inconvenience.

    That was years ago, and everything since has been bulletproof. So I have less concerns about the 60. Let them get it perfect, I can wait.

    -Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Thanks to all for their considered opinions and truly great input.

    As it stands, I am leaning toward sticking with the original plan ... trade the H3D-II/39 for a H4D/60.

    In the end it is the least expensive option, even when I include a 3 year Flexcare Enhanced Warranty which somewhat mitigates the need for a true back-up. Plus, it represents the largest leap in resolution and sensor size to distance my MFD kit from anything the DSLR makers may deliver in future... like the rumored Sony 35 meg Alpha.

    Jack's input in particular was valuable in terms of the performance of the 60 meg Dalsa sensor he is already working with. Everything he demonstrates are IQ attributes that I value ... especially when shooting people. My previous Leaf Aptus 75s had those image attributes, so I know what he is referencing.

    A 50 Multi-Shot may well produce higher IQ in static shooting conditions, however H Multi-Shots are a bit less suited to more spontaneous work due to the MS module increasing the length of the back a tad past the finder, and it adds a bit of weight to an already heavy camera. I shoot a lot of hand-held or Mono-Pod stuff (which will be an interesting challenge when I up the resolution this much).

    I am waiting for my accountant's tax results ... maybe Uncle Sam will fund a H4D/40 also ... or ... I could be keeping the H3D-II/39 and feel lucky to have it

    Thanks again!

    -Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Marc, I won't get into the technical advantages/disadvantages of the various options... you know them better than I. I will say that I think you've made a wise choice in going with one back vs. two. Been there... done that, and to some extent am still doing it with the multiple platforms I have with the Hy6. I found/find myself choosing which back/platform to use for all the wrong reasons, e.g. boy, I haven't shot with the Hasselblad in a while... if I'm not going to use it, why have it. So I switch to the Hassy when the Hy6 would have been the better choice. There's also something to be said for going with your first choice. We all second guess ourselves, whether before or after the purchase, and going with the top of the line-up helps avoid that (at least for me). I do like the advice about selling your existing kit while it's still got warranty remaining. Of course you'd need to get more for it then what they'll give you on the trade-in. I can't help but feel that these trade-in deals "overstate" the value of our existing gear and that if you were an all cash buyer you might be able to negotiate a heck of a good discount.

  29. #29
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Marc, I won't get into the technical advantages/disadvantages of the various options... you know them better than I. I will say that I think you've made a wise choice in going with one back vs. two. Been there... done that, and to some extent am still doing it with the multiple platforms I have with the Hy6. I found/find myself choosing which back/platform to use for all the wrong reasons, e.g. boy, I haven't shot with the Hasselblad in a while... if I'm not going to use it, why have it. So I switch to the Hassy when the Hy6 would have been the better choice. There's also something to be said for going with your first choice. We all second guess ourselves, whether before or after the purchase, and going with the top of the line-up helps avoid that (at least for me). I do like the advice about selling your existing kit while it's still got warranty remaining. Of course you'd need to get more for it then what they'll give you on the trade-in. I can't help but feel that these trade-in deals "overstate" the value of our existing gear and that if you were an all cash buyer you might be able to negotiate a heck of a good discount.
    Actually David, that's exactly what I did right away. I asked what the flat out purchase price was with the intent of selling my existing rig myself. Not even close. Even with discounts on the straight purchase, the trade deal is better. I suspect they did this back in November to estimate actual interest and production numbers for this new model ... and they are looking to get as many previous backs off the streets as possible.

    This may not be true a year from now ... or even this fall at show time. But by then my rig would be less attractive.

    The shame of it is that this kit is so low use, has worked perfectly, and has 4 months left on the coverage ... but it fetches the same trade value as a non-Mark-II unit with 100,000 shots on it.

    Oh well ....

    -Marc

  30. #30
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Marc same with me and the Phase the trade in deals are just better to do. They also want to keep you in there system too. So for them it makes sense and for us it does as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  31. #31
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Just to confuse the issue, you could always find someone with a Phase back who is hell bent on Hassey.
    Trade +- some bucks. Both benefit on trade
    IF you wanted to switch to Phase that is.

    I actually did some years ago. Unlike warranty, trades are uaually 'who owns now"

    Just mentioning since the chance is likely high of finding a swap, so the Phase option shouldn't be locked out.

    OR I hear the new Contax 645 III will take ANY MF trade......

  32. #32
    DougDolde
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    The big question is Will It Satisfy You (no matter what the choice) and if so for How Long ?

  33. #33
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Actually Doug, that is really the net question, isn't it? And I think I know Marc pretty well, at least when it comes to camera gear --- basically all I have to do is look in the mirror

    I am taking bets: Marc will end with a Hassy 60 within 90 days of them being readily available. I'll even go 1 for 2 that he grabs the first one he's offered!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  34. #34
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Not betting against you on that one. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  35. #35
    DougDolde
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    This is kind of like going to a bunch of alcoholics and asking what the best drink is.

  36. #36
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here." (Dante)

    Says it all
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  37. #37
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Maitre d': Et maintenant, would monsieur care for an aperitif, or would he prefer to order straightaway? Today, we have for appetizers - excuse me - uh, moules marinières, pâte de foie gras, beluga caviar, eggs Benedictine, tarte de poireaux - that's leek tart - frogs legs amandine or oeufs de caille Richard Shepherd - C'est à dire, little quails' eggs on a bed of pureed mushrooms. It's very delicate, very succulent.

    Mr. Creosote: I'll have the lot.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Here is some food for thought..

    Shot this last night on the rooftop bar of our hotel, following our partner conference that day.

    H4D40
    ISO800
    1/3 second
    f6.7

    (So really not much light around)

    Hand Held by balancing on a glass partition!
    Zero noise reduction
    Shadow Fill and Clarity applied.

    Quality-wise. You can be the judge.

    Ill upload a TIF file soon on a separate thread.

    D

    EDIT - Forgot to attach JPEG
    Last edited by David Grover / Phase One; 26th February 2010 at 00:44. Reason: EDIT II - TIF upload a little slow, might not happen today before I need to fly out!

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Here is some food for thought..

    Shot this last night on the rooftop bar of our hotel, following our partner conference that day.

    H4D40
    ISO800
    1/3 second
    f6.7

    (So really not much light around)

    Hand Held by balancing on a glass partition!
    Zero noise reduction
    Shadow Fill and Clarity applied.

    Quality-wise. You can be the judge.

    Ill upload a TIF file soon on a separate thread.

    D

    EDIT - Forgot to attach JPEG
    Hey David, if you get a spare minute could you Drop Box a 3FR RAW file of that 40 shot to me?

    [email protected]

    While the 60 decision stands firm now, the 40 is not out of the running here ... depending on what my tax refund may be. I don't have a conflict in terms of distinguishing applications between a 40 and a 60. The 60 would live in the studio for the most part, while the 40 would be the go-to camera for more spontaneous work ... just like the 39 and 31 were previously.

    -Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hey David, if you get a spare minute could you Drop Box a 3FR RAW file of that 40 shot to me?

    [email protected]

    While the 60 decision stands firm now, the 40 is not out of the running here ... depending on what my tax refund may be. I don't have a conflict in terms of distinguishing applications between a 40 and a 60. The 60 would live in the studio for the most part, while the 40 would be the go-to camera for more spontaneous work ... just like the 39 and 31 were previously.

    -Marc
    Sure Marc. I am just about to head to the airport so it might be in 20 hrs time.

    Hopefully the TIF will be available later today though.

    D

  41. #41
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Actually Doug, that is really the net question, isn't it? And I think I know Marc pretty well, at least when it comes to camera gear --- basically all I have to do is look in the mirror

    I am taking bets: Marc will end with a Hassy 60 within 90 days of them being readily available. I'll even go 1 for 2 that he grabs the first one he's offered!
    Marc
    The answer is clear
    Put BIG bucks on Jack's offer, sit on your hands for 91 days, and then

    ...you'll be able to buy EVERYTHING

  42. #42
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    I went through a similar process a couple of months ago. My starting point is an H3D -39. I shoot mainly landscape. The 60 megs vs. anything else was easy - in landscape the number of pixels matters a lot. 60 megs by itself is terrific, and stitching two or three frames puts you in scanning back territory with much greater convenience and flexiblity.

    I tortured myself on H vs. P1. in the end I decided to stay with H. The reasons:

    1. Glass. The HCD 28, HCD 35-90 and the HC 100 are all terrific, as is the HC 150. The tele-extender is also a real surprise I'm certain that the Mamiya offerings are as good - people who I respect praise them - but I have the HC lenses in hand and I understand their capabilities.

    2. HTS 1.5. Very slick piece of gear.

    3. I prefer leaf shutter for landscape. If I want wide open I use an ND.

    4. H's very aggressive promotional pricing. The H3D gets the same deal as the H3DII, so I'm not penalized for skipping a generation.

    5. I've been very happy with H service and their policy of providing firmware support for older models.

    If I ever feel the need for high ISO capacity and speed I'll buy a 5DII and a couple of lenses for a small faction of the MF investment.

    If I had started with a Phase kit using the same logic I probably would have kept it.

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    that 28 would be nice on the ff 60

  44. #44
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    You lose the corners, since the lens has a crop factor. It is apparently very little though.
    Carsten - Website

  45. #45
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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    You lose the corners, since the lens has a crop factor. It is apparently very little though.
    Apparently just a few rows of pixels. The question will be how much over the old 1.1X crop factor of the 39 does the 28mm render, and how good is that tiny extra portion?

    In other words ... how many pixels can sit on the end of a pin.

    -Marc

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    Re: A little help from my friends please.

    Bottom line like for Jack and his P65+ and 28mm the worst case scenario he has a 30mm. Which is really like a 20 mm or so in 35mm. BFD

    Even if he had to crop to the P40+ framing he is still ahead of the game, he does not need to crop in that much but for him he has a 30mm lens. That's life and easily manageable
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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