A little help from my friends please.

[fotografz]

Okay fellow MFers ... er ... Medium Formaters ...help me spend my budget: :salute:

Here's the drill ...

First off I think I'm sticking with Hasselblad ... Leica priced themselves out of the ball park with the S2, especially considering the fact I already have a complete Hassey H system.

I explored the Phase System and it is far more financially viable, especially with the great trade-in promos and super support from Phase dealers and tech services.

However, in the end, I use a waist level finder to often and am adding the HTS 1.5 ... have never liked the dual battery needs of the Phase ... and almost never need more than the 1/800th top shutter speed of the H ... more importantly I need high sync speeds for all my lenses from 28mm thru 300mm, not just some ... all personal preference and specific needs, and has absolutely nothing to do with which is better than the other.

My current camera is a H3D-II/39 with only 2910 shots on it (studio work is rarely a matter of hosing off shots ... using live view, most jobs only require two or three shots to nail it) It has a hot swap Enhanced Flexcare warranty until the end of June 2010. The camera has been bullet proof on every shoot.

But technology moves on.

1) I can trade the H3D-II/39 for a H4D/60 that uses the Dalsa chip. This is just about a 1X crop factor (almost none), and is the only H choice featuring the newer 2X resolution LCD.

2) Or for a little more money, I can secure a Certified H3D-II/50 Demo kit with 80/2.8 that has 6500 shots on it and 6 months Hasselblad standard "Depot" warranty PLUS a brand new H4D/40 without a lens ... but no trade-in is allowed on this deal ... I'd have to sell the H3D-II/39 myself.

I'd estimate the difference at about $5,500. additional for the 2 camera set-up. (roughly $20K verses $25.5K after sale of the H3D-II/39 without lens at a fair market price). All funded by recent sales of all my V and Nikon gear.

The H3D-II/50 uses a Kodak sensor, is a 1.1X crop factor, would be mostly used in studio and offers more than just 11 pixels more ... the newer sensor technology is reported to produce better color and cleaner files (hard to believe given how good the 39 is). The newer AF of the H4 is of less consequence in a studio environment IMO.

The 1.3X crop frame H4D/40 is also a Kodak sensor using micro-lenses ... and would be used for high-end weddings, location work and anything that requires higher ISO performance (first looks at ISO 1600 appears to be excellent!). The True Focus innovation would be of great value here as would the improved focus assist light.

3) The third choice would also require my selling the H3D-II/39 myself. It would be a Certified CF/39 Multishot that I would use on my current H2F camera for studio captures with full access to all Phocus software features AND on my complete RZ Pro system using an iAdapter, PLUS the H4D/40.

This dual choice would be approx. the same cost as the H4D/60.

At my age, this will most likely be my last big Hurrah! in MF movement, unless I win the Lotto :ROTFL:


What would you do?


Thanks for any input,

Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Tough choices here but first I would go for the latest tech here with the HD4 and the one thing I see if the 60 can do 1600 than it could certainly do studio and wedding. But like me the 40 itself is maybe the more versatile tool and you could use it in either place. The difference between Jacks and mine for instance is there but again your already at 40 and how much more do you need to go. Now if the 50 was a multi shot than i would go 50 and 40 so you have some real difference between the backs plus they could back each other up. Now if the HD4 60 has a good 1600 than it is a no brainer , I would just go for that with all the latest tech and body. You can still do weddings with it plus you still shoot the M9. Myself my P40+ kind of replaces the M9 in file size with sensor plus and I get a real clean 1600 binned. Now Jack could do the same with the P65 plus. I like the binning stuff but Hassy does not have that but it just makes it more versatile. Not sure the 50 buys you anything except you can use it in the studio does not have micro lenses and is a back up plus maybe a biggy here has the same sensor look. Tough call and can see why your asking the question which i would be also. let me think some more and come back , this requires 3 espresso's. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Marc not trying to switch your systems because I know how tough that is but if you went for a P65+ does it save you anything with a complete turn. It's just a lingering option to consider. Reason why is you can shoot it all with one back. The Hassy 60 may not have high ISO , that I don't know and i am not trying to suggest switching systems either but we have to look at all options out there.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Than on the other hand here the 40 alone maybe the better overall option in Hassy since it looks like a good 1600 and it can still do studio.

Some of this also depends on your wedding work and how much **** you want to deal with. Are we going away from the M9 or staying with that for certain things and I think this plays a part in the decision. Me i have the P40 that will do all of the wedding work which i have one coming up. I can do all the real stuff at 40 mpx than switch to sensor plus for the reception stuff. Guess we look at theM9 as the sensor plus stuff in a sense.

Sorry folks but thinking out loud and this is how I make these decisions and just did with the P40+. You have to throw all the stuff out there and decide what is making the most sense. Emotions don't count

Going for espresso 2

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now having said all that and i know you are just like me here when I retire all i want is a M9 and get rid of all this other stuff. But my retirement is with a freaking walking stick time frame. LOL

 

[gogopix]

Don't you guys ever sleep?

Anyway, Marc I would not presume to make any recommendation (being a good consultant) but you have the answer, just need to find it.

I use something called "dominance thinking". Take a decision; say the H4/40 and then live with it; consider when it doesn't work. Does anything seem better? If after a week you can't change, then you're there.

Only issue is oscillation; today H4/40, tomorrow thinking P65+, then back, and forth..

There is a decision making device... in your pocket, small disk

Flip it to decide.

THEN if you get a warm feeling inside for the winning side go for it; if you get a little fi brilation in your heart, then the loser of the flip is the choice you should make.

An of course, no decisions are worth a damn without a good french wine LOL
ALl the best,
Victor

 

[rmueller]

Hi Marc,

I believe timing needs to be considered here as well. We can certainly
expect some photokina '10 promotion from Hasselblad (remember photokina '08?). It probably doesn't affect the H4D-40 too much since this seems the
new entry model and the price is already fairly aggressive IMO.

But i wouldn't buy into a 50 or 60 now if not absolutely required and necessary for the job.

So the big question is what you will get for your H3DII-39 now compared to September this year. If you believe its a significant difference i would replace
the H3DII-39 with the H4D-40 and then wait for photokina.
Otherwise i would just stick with the H3DII-39 for now and wait what these
guys have to offer later this year, then go for a H4D-40 plus 50 multishot or
60.

The option with the CF-39 sounds odd to me.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, not an easy decision for sure.

Regards,
Ralf

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Maybe the two back setup is the way togo. First you have two systems that back each other up. The H40 makes much more sense for the wedding stuff than any other Hassy out there plus you get the new body and 40 mpx is plenty of file for sure, it appears it does a nice 1600 and most likely the fastest back in the Hassy line. Certainly a welcome feature.

The 50 may or may not be needed so much for the studio since you have the 40 but it does not have micro lenses which would be a better studio back, you get a little extra res. and certainly serves as a back plus your using the same Kodak sensor in both.

Now the HD60 if it can do all that the two backs can do together you save some money. If it has the shooting speed of the 40 and the high ISO of the 40 than it maybe a better choice and this one has a Dalsa sensor which on a tech camera maybe a better option in the studio and obviously you get the biggest dog out there, which I know you being a gear slut like me is kind of cool.

The big question and maybe David can address it is shooting speed , high ISO and does it match the 40 in these regards. Also the look of the Dalsa maybe different

 

[fotografz]

Keep it coming Guy! Good points made. Get that next Espresso in you and crank it up. I'm on double coffee number 3 already. Buuzzzzzzz

The new H4D/40 does full resolution 1600 ... and apparently really does it well ... a visible improvement over my previous crop frame H3D-II/31 which already did an acceptable job at 1600 if care was taken in exposures ... not much leeway there though. The H4D/40 seems next generation better from what I've seen so far.

I can't recall seeing a full resolution studio shot using strobes that was done with a 60 meg Dalsa sensor. The assumption being that the Phase will be similar to the Hassey (give or take). I think the H4D/60 version will top out at 800, and I've no idea how good it will be.

I use MFD at weddings where it's outdoors, or when using off-camera lighting indoors during formals. I'm interested in the H4D AF improvements which may increase the wedding applications some.

A single choice over the H4D/60 would be a H4D/50 Multi-Shot @ about a $5,000 premium. However, a M/S is a bit more awkward and heavier than a non-M/S for applications like a wedding or location shoot with talent ... and adding a H4D/40 would exceed the budget to much.

The M is for reception candids, and is irreplaceable for those type of available light shots (24/1.4, 50/0.95, 75/1.4) ... I'll never get down to just one system unless it IS the M which is unlikely since it really isn't suited to on camera flash work.

I'd say my leaning is back toward my original H4D/60 decision which most likely will meet or exceed any requirements in future, distance itself clearly from any 35mm progress, and has the better LCD. But it will not be an ISO performer.

Marc

 

[fotografz]

Hi Marc,

I believe timing needs to be considered here as well. We can certainly
expect some photokina '10 promotion from Hasselblad (remember photokina '08?). It probably doesn't affect the H4D-40 too much since this seems the
new entry model and the price is already fairly aggressive IMO.

But i wouldn't buy into a 50 or 60 now if not absolutely required and necessary for the job.

So the big question is what you will get for your H3DII-39 now compared to September this year. If you believe its a significant difference i would replace
the H3DII-39 with the H4D-40 and then wait for photokina.
Otherwise i would just stick with the H3DII-39 for now and wait what these
guys have to offer later this year, then go for a H4D-40 plus 50 multishot or
60.

The option with the CF-39 sounds odd to me.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, not an easy decision for sure.

Regards,
Ralf

Good thinking! Sell/lease w/purchase the H3D-11/39 while it's attractive, and has 4 months of premium warranty.

BTW, the CF39 is a Multi-Shot and would work across camera platforms. It's my least favorite choice ... if it was a CF-II/39 MS I'd be more interested. Hasselblad seems to be smoking the drapes on CF and CF-II pricing, or they don't care if they sell any.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Don't you guys ever sleep?

Anyway, Marc I would not presume to make any recommendation (being a good consultant) but you have the answer, just need to find it.

I use something called "dominance thinking". Take a decision; say the H4/40 and then live with it; consider when it doesn't work. Does anything seem better? If after a week you can't change, then you're there.

Only issue is oscillation; today H4/40, tomorrow thinking P65+, then back, and forth..

There is a decision making device... in your pocket, small disk

Flip it to decide.

THEN if you get a warm feeling inside for the winning side go for it; if you get a little fi brilation in your heart, then the loser of the flip is the choice you should make.

An of course, no decisions are worth a damn without a good french wine LOL
ALl the best,
Victor

:ROTFL:

A coin flip is probably as good as any decision I'd make right now Victor!


Ouch, GAS pains.


-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Keep it coming Guy! Good points made. Get that next Espresso in you and crank it up. I'm on double coffee number 3 already. Buuzzzzzzz

The new H4D/40 does full resolution 1600 ... and apparently really does it well ... a visible improvement over my previous crop frame H3D-II/31 which already did an acceptable job at 1600 if care was taken in exposures ... not much leeway there though. The H4D/40 seems next generation better from what I've seen so far.

I can't recall seeing a full resolution studio shot using strobes that was done with a 60 meg Dalsa sensor. The assumption being that the Phase will be similar to the Hassey (give or take). I think the H4D/60 version will top out at 800, and I've no idea how good it will be.

I use MFD at weddings where it's outdoors, or when using off-camera lighting indoors during formals. I'm interested in the H4D AF improvements which may increase the wedding applications some.

A single choice over the H4D/60 would be a H4D/50 Multi-Shot @ about a $5,000 premium. However, a M/S is a bit more awkward and heavier than a non-M/S for applications like a wedding or location shoot with talent ... and adding a H4D/40 would exceed the budget to much.

The M is for reception candids, and is irreplaceable for those type of available light shots (24/1.4, 50/0.95, 75/1.4) ... I'll never get down to just one system unless it IS the M which is unlikely since it really isn't suited to on camera flash work.

I'd say my leaning is back toward my original H4D/60 decision which most likely will meet or exceed any requirements in future, distance itself clearly from any 35mm progress, and has the better LCD. But it will not be an ISO performer.

Marc

HD4/60 Since the wedding stuff is outdoors 40 or 60 would not matter and than you have a killer studio cam as well. Plus a bigger LCD and also high ISO will not matter for you on the weddings. I have to go dually if you know what I mean. Eventually i will go P65 but that is a ways out. My one issue with the P40+ and maybe the same on the Hassy is the crop factor in the finder not the back but the finder. I sometimes crop to tight since I see so much room outside the lines. If it was like the P25 frame lines i would be happier. Might have to look at a chart to see what I mean. See if I can find one. The HD4/40 maybe the same look in finder. BTW i am trying to get a HD40 to review.

See I would like the P45 cropping in finder here. Wonder how Hassy finder is in relation to this

 

[fotografz]

Maybe the two back setup is the way togo. First you have two systems that back each other up. The H40 makes much more sense for the wedding stuff than any other Hassy out there plus you get the new body and 40 mpx is plenty of file for sure, it appears it does a nice 1600 and most likely the fastest back in the Hassy line. Certainly a welcome feature.

The 50 may or may not be needed so much for the studio since you have the 40 but it does not have micro lenses which would be a better studio back, you get a little extra res. and certainly serves as a back plus your using the same Kodak sensor in both.

Now the HD60 if it can do all that the two backs can do together you save some money. If it has the shooting speed of the 40 and the high ISO of the 40 than it maybe a better choice and this one has a Dalsa sensor which on a tech camera maybe a better option in the studio and obviously you get the biggest dog out there, which I know you being a gear slut like me is kind of cool.

The big question and maybe David can address it is shooting speed , high ISO and does it match the 40 in these regards. Also the look of the Dalsa maybe different

The shooting speed of the 60 is an unknown ... the 40 is quite fast. I do not think ISO 1600 is in the cards for the 60 Dalsa. Probably 800. We'll see what they can do with firmware/software.

Having had a Aptus 75s (that Jim C. now applies his considerable talents with great results), I'm familiar with the subtile differences in "look"
between Dalsa and Kodak. Either are fine. I leaned toward Dalsa for people and environmental applications and Kodak for studio product works with strobes ... but frankly it's half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. I recall the Dalsa ISO 800 being pretty impressive, but that was before Hassey improved the 39 meg backs and upped it to ISO 800 also.

What's a MFer to do

-Marc

 

[PeterA]

Looking forward to your opinion on the HTS..as for more megapixels 39 is more than enough for me...anyway its your hard earned spend it the way you want to to - however there is always next years even better model to look forward to and then the one after that and the one after that and ....

arTec with 23/40/90 is my preference.30-40 megapixels is just fine hangin off this set-up oh and a nice new 500 series body to go with some glass i recently picked up from someone ..

Cheers

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The shooting speed of the 60 is an unknown ... the 40 is quite fast. I do not think ISO 1600 is in the cards for the 60 Dalsa. Probably 800. We'll see what they can do with firmware/software.

Having had a Aptus 75s (that Jim C. now applies his considerable talents with great results), I'm familiar with the subtile differences in "look"
between Dalsa and Kodak. Either are fine. I leaned toward Dalsa for people and environmental applications and Kodak for studio product works with strobes ... but frankly it's half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. I recall the Dalsa ISO 800 being pretty impressive, but that was before Hassey improved the 39 meg backs and upped it to ISO 800 also.

What's a MFer to do

-Marc

We need more data on the 60 than. You will need some decent shooting speed here. At least as fast as the strobes outside can go

 

[docmoore]

Marc,

As you know I have no commercial interest in photography...it is just the black hole that consumes a fair amount of my time and capital. With that in mind I must be the odd man out because of the trades the H4D 50 MS makes a bit more sense to me.

I cannot imagine a better combination of IQ - especially in the studio with the HTS. True focus at 50 for single shot and higher multishot when needed...it will probably beat the 39MS by a fair margin. While you may lose a stop or two in exposure latitude it does not seem that your wedding photography has suffered to this point...at least on the basis of the pictures you has shared.:thumbup:

I imagine that in a couple of years all of the Uncle Bobs (Not a relation of mine!) may make your wedding photos less rewarding. I can imagine a setting of formal wedding pictures isolated from the masses with the H4D 50MS - Profoto or Hensel lights, and the more spontaneous moments captured with a M9 and A900 replacement (Higher ISO?).

Your advantage with the H4D 50MS is known technology massively great IQ easy tradeup and all the advantages of the H4D improvements...plus all of your lenses are dialed in and functional. Now the H4D 60 may match resolution but I know you would value the MS advantages.

I anticipate that this has given you a number of less than restful nights...as you have said many times - no one camera or back will meet all needs perfectly. Our difficulty now is the options extant are not differentiated well enough to make the choices simple.

I, like many here, will be interested to hear your decision and see the results.

Bob

 

[arashm]

some more thoughts to muddy up the water

First I would convert the H3D2-39 to cash sooner than later.
As for the H4D-60, I have been told first hand that Hassy has been having teething problems with it (and with Dalsa), This was part of why they decided to go back to using Kodak for the 40, and why there is still no 60 as a H3D2 or H4D.
For me personally, I would want to see the 60 perform in the real world first before committing my $. ( not that I'm saying it will not perform )

I briefly handled the H4D-40 at the launch, TF is excellent and works. (took my own captures on my CF card).
So if I was in your shoes, I would sell/trade the H3D2-39 to the H4D-40 and then wait to see what happens at fotokina this year and what the user reports are on the H4D-60.
I think the 40 would be more than capable of double duty in the interim.
I can understand a 60 and 40 in the same case or a 50MS and a 40 (my own first choice), but I'm not sure a Reg 50 and 40 would be that far apart to justify the investment, of course this is just my 2c.

completely OT, but it really is a shame that Leica priced the S2 too high and ship it with lame Tethering.

Don't worry these decisions are never easy as many here know.
good luck
am

 

[Aaron]

Option (4)

Keep your mint H3DII39, it works!

You must have pretty high end wedding clients if they will appreciate anything above your current set up

I would put that money in the bank! Boring I know, but who knows when a rainy day is coming along....

 

[Guy Mancuso]

some more thoughts to muddy up the water

First I would convert the H3D2-39 to cash sooner than later.
As for the H4D-60, I have been told first hand that Hassy has been having teething problems with it (and with Dalsa), This was part of why they decided to go back to using Kodak for the 40, and why there is still no 60 as a H3D2 or H4D.
For me personally, I would want to see the 60 perform in the real world first before committing my $. ( not that I'm saying it will not perform )

I briefly handled the H4D-40 at the launch, TF is excellent and works. (took my own captures on my CF card).
So if I was in your shoes, I would sell/trade the H3D2-39 to the H4D-40 and then wait to see what happens at fotokina this year and what the user reports are on the H4D-60.
I think the 40 would be more than capable of double duty in the interim.
I can understand a 60 and 40 in the same case or a 50MS and a 40 (my own first choice), but I'm not sure a Reg 50 and 40 would be that far apart to justify the investment, of course this is just my 2c.

completely OT, but it really is a shame that Leica priced the S2 too high and ship it with lame Tethering.

Don't worry these decisions are never easy as many here know.
good luck
am

Now this changes the scenery. No question having a 40 Mpx back myself it is more than capable and is a far above the P45+ in my case which is the same sensor for the H39. I would certainly switch over to the 40mpx . Much faster back and much better ISO. I would do this than see what becomes of the 60 and Photokinia . This will certainly hold you until than with the 40. My decision to go to the 40 was a very good one. I would get out of the 39 while you still had a salable warranty on it. H39 for sale see B&S . LOL

 

[arashm]

I have to also add that right now I think the 40MPX backs from all the camps are at a sweet spot of resolution vs speed vs ISO.
Partly because the Dalsa (leaf/phase) can be used on a view/tech camera and the H4D-40 also apparently plays really nicely with the HTS ( I don't have any hands on knowlage of this, but even with micro lenses, the HTS does a good job with the H3D2-31 )
for my own rentals I have always liked the P30+ and the H3D2-31 and I think the 40's are a nice natural progression to them.
hence I think the 40 would do a good job of holding down the fort till the bigger back arrives.
am