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Thread: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

  1. #1
    vsadov
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    H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    First post, and it is a question:

    I am thinking of replacing my H3DII-39 with H4D-60, taking advantage of the Hasselblad's upgrade program.

    Part of the fun of using the Hassy is the ability to use the wide HCD 4/28 lens. I am very happy with the results. Phocus does pretty good job correcting whatever problems the lens has in the corners.

    One thing makes me wonder though. Quoting the "HC Lenses" guide:

    "The HCD 4/28 mm lens is designed solely for digital use. This means that the lens designed for a format of 37x49 mm and does not cover the film format (41.5x56mm). The function is therefore disabled when using a film magazine."

    Now, the 60MP Dalsa sensor is almost the FF film size. What does it mean for HCD 4/28 /w H4D-60 combination? Bad vignetting? Could it be corrected with DAC in Phocus?

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    I am surprised that no one has answered this yet. David Grover, a Hasselblad employee, once stated on Luminous Landscape:

    "We have chosen a target sensor format of 36 * 49mm for the optimization of the lens performance for the HCD lens line in order to achieve a compact design with fast focusing as well as high performance. Top performance is reached even with sensors larger than 36 * 49mm. The only restriction is that a marginal crop is introduced with the HCD28 and the HCD35-90 in 35 mm setting. On a full frame 60 Mpix camera, the crop will result in an effective pixel count of 55 Mpix and a focal length factor of about 1.1. This means that the HCD28 will be equal to a 31 mm lens and the HCD35-90 will be equal to a 38-90 mm."

    It seems like a minor thing, nothing to stop you from buying the H4D-60.
    Carsten - Website

  3. #3
    vsadov
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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Carsten,

    Thank you very much for sharing this information. If I understand you and David correctly, HCD28 will be supported, with some cropping applied within Phocus to yield about 55MP of effective image size. This is indeed reassuring. Nothing to detract me from the upgrade

    I am still curious about the details, in particular about whether the aspect ratio of the image will be changed as a result of cropping. The following is just an idle speculation on my part:

    Naively, since the cropped pixels sit near the two short edges of the sensor, dropping them would result in the aspect ratio somewhat less than 4:3, perhaps closer to 6:5. The number 55 suggests something like this might be done. After all, if I were to apply the cropping factor 1.1 uniformly to the whole image, preserving the 4:3 aspect ratio, I would only see 60/(1.1)^2 = 50 megapixels, not 55 megapixels as alluded by David Grover.

    Again, this is just a speculation motivated by geometry. Maybe someone with the real knowledge of the matter would care to chime in ...


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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    I don't know all the details, but I believe that the 28mm (and 35-90mm) focal length is actually an "effective" crop focal length, not the focal length on 645 full frame. That means that the focal length on 645 FF would actually be less, around 24mm or something, if the lens had an image circle that large. I don't know whether the 31mm focal length mentioned by David is FF or crop, or what math was used to arrive at the results.

    Anyway, if most lenses give 60MP and these two give 55MP or 50MP, I still think the upgrade would be attractive, unless you use one or both of these lenses predominantly, in which case the 50 or 50MS might be more interesting.

    I am guessing that either David Grover or Paul Claesson will drop in with more accurate details, and perhaps some math details and the actual usable image size in pixels.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    The 28 crop on the 60 camera is minimal.

    I've been told the HDC lenses are an effective 55 meg give or take a pixel. That would be a 1.091X crop factor with the digital lenses ... which I'm sure David rounded up to 1.1X.

    -Marc

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    HCD

    And yes apparently the crop is very small, smaller than what was initially expected.
    Nick-T

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    I am astounded; are you telling me that the vaunted 28mm lens of Hasselblad, that can't be used on older cameras since it is so 'special' doesn't even have the image circle to cover a full frame on its own brands' top camera and sensor?

    pre apologies if I am mis-reading something; if not, this is an ENORMOUS crack in the pottery.

    Sorry, you can't get the gold if you can't fill the frame.

    Victor

    PS: we have tolerated a lot of ranting about Leica missteps: this is one they would NOT have made.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Victor,

    This has been knowledge for a long time.

    The HCD28 was conceived a long time before the 60MP products existed.

    Not every single one of our customers will be using a 60MP camera. Therefore the 28 serves them very well. We should not exclude the 22, 31, 39, 40 and 50 customers who are indeed in the majority.

    The reason for the design of the 28 in this way, was to reduce size, weight and ultimately cost to the customer.

    The net result in using the 28 on the H4D60 is an extremely small crop.

    David

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    I am astounded; are you telling me that the vaunted 28mm lens of Hasselblad, that can't be used on older cameras since it is so 'special' doesn't even have the image circle to cover a full frame on its own brands' top camera and sensor?

    pre apologies if I am mis-reading something; if not, this is an ENORMOUS crack in the pottery.

    Sorry, you can't get the gold if you can't fill the frame.

    Victor

    PS: : this is one they would NOT have made.
    What "... that can't be used on older cameras ..." are you referring to Victor?

    Personally, I wouldn't bring up "Leica" and "Missteps" in the same sentence ... some Leica R shooters with a king's ransom in glass may consider the entire S2 system is a "Misstep". Not many of the R lenses will work on the S2 will they?
    Last edited by fotografz; 1st March 2010 at 00:54.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What "... that can't be used on older cameras ..." are you referring to Victor?

    Personally, I wouldn't bring up "Leica" and "Missteps" in the same sentence ... some Leica R shooters with a king's ransom in glass may consider the entire S2 system is a "Misstep". Not many of the R lenses will work on the S2 will they?
    Ahhh....THERE"s the nerve!

    Anyway, this is starting to sound like schoolyard talk; yes, I'm as guilty as all (At 67, one will do ANYTHING to feel young )

    The point on lenses is simple; if you build a lens for 645, it would be nice to have it WORK on 645.
    I believe the 28 will not work on H1 and H2 (not counting V series here). If wrong, so be it; I made a mistake and it was corrected.

    However, after listening to rants for YEARS by people about FULL FRAME (remember what happened when M8 came out? all the cry about FF "I can't get my wides to work....")
    "I will wait for the M9 FF is so important"
    So, M9 is FF.

    It is amazing that, if people defend a Leica action for a non perfect system they get crap.
    If they criticize another system, they get crap.

    Let's get some balance back in here.

    Victor

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    The lens was not built for 645, it was built for 48mm format sensors.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    OK, so, as with the S2, Hasselblad has carved a a NEW format (48x48 square?)

    again, H comes out with basically a 645, puts a 48mm sensor in it and claims it is "full frame" (I remmeber the ads)
    BUT, it is NOT a new format ????????

    Leica comes out with the S2; they believe THAT is the sweet spot; we'll see

    David,
    Hasselblad is a great comapny with a great product, but there is a "we're perfect" attitude that might be helpful to tone down.

    I will probably get a H4 or H5 system when the Contax gest long in the tooth. But by then, I hope there is a 28mm II

    Victor

    PS I don't any longer use h bodies, but I have about $50,000 worth of V glass (No, the TPP not yet -almost everything else though from 30mm to 500/8. Oh, also passed on the 1600mm f4 LOL)

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Ahhh....THERE"s the nerve!

    Anyway, this is starting to sound like schoolyard talk; yes, I'm as guilty as all (At 67, one will do ANYTHING to feel young )

    The point on lenses is simple; if you build a lens for 645, it would be nice to have it WORK on 645.
    I believe the 28 will not work on H1 and H2 (not counting V series here). If wrong, so be it; I made a mistake and it was corrected.

    However, after listening to rants for YEARS by people about FULL FRAME (remember what happened when M8 came out? all the cry about FF "I can't get my wides to work....")
    "I will wait for the M9 FF is so important"
    So, M9 is FF.

    It is amazing that, if people defend a Leica action for a non perfect system they get crap.
    If they criticize another system, they get crap.

    Let's get some balance back in here.

    Victor
    Yes, Balance ... perhaps starting with you maybe?

    Asking about something in the form of a question may be better than crapping on it in hopes of being corrected if wrong. Honey rather than vinegar and all that.

    I really don't know how much clearer it could be that the 28 was originally designed for 1.1X backs and for use on the H3D/H2F 22, 39 and 50 meg backs ... and now the H4D/50 and 40 ... as well as the 60 with a tiny crop factor. If one doesn't like that approach don't buy it. Simple.

    Personally, I have a lot of opinions about other cameras ... but keep them to myself even if I DO have first hand knowledge of them in practice ... and either ask questions, or say nothing unless I'm seriously considering THAT system ... otherwise it just pisses off people.

    None of this is absolute ... it's all preference.

    -Marc

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    .........

    I will probably get a H4 or H5 system when the Contax gest long in the tooth.
    Before the tooth gets too long, pls. send me a note. I may be interested in your 350mm.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Victor,

    Does the 28mm D lens from Phase One cover the full frame of their 60MP P65+? Was that lens conceived before the larger 54x40 sensor as well?

    David

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    sorry
    I use Contax

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    The phase 28mm D was designed for both digital and 645 film so it works fine on the P65+ without cropping but the corners are a little soft.

    I doubt the 60MP at full frame was even conceived when the H28mm was designed. In fact, I understand you still get 28mm coverage just not the whole 60MP sensor coverage.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    The phase 28mm D was designed for both digital and 645 film so it works fine on the P65+ without cropping but the corners are a little soft.

    I doubt the 60MP at full frame was even conceived when the H28mm was designed. In fact, I understand you still get 28mm coverage just not the whole 60MP sensor coverage.
    Correct and the bottom line it really is a 30mm. Let's remember theses are the only 2 28mm's on the market outside of tech lenses. Not a easy lens to design so I give them both a lot of credit for what they can do outside there small issues. Rather have it than not and I use mine all the time. Probably would have never gone into MF to begin with not having them on the market.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    The phase 28mm D was designed for both digital and 645 film so it works fine on the P65+ without cropping but the corners are a little soft.
    Thanks, this is good to keep in mind. Some folks still use film in addition to their digital kit, so I think it is great to have such a lens ready for either situation.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Think one should keep in mind that till a few years ago something like 40mm or 38mm was kind of the best wide you could get in MF.

    The 28 on a H3D/39 or H3D2/50 covers approximately the image you could get with the specialized WA film camera from Hasselblad in square format.

    All above that is even a big progress.

    All of these discussions about actually "only" getting a 30 wit a H4D/60 are purely academic in my opinion.

    I am using the HCD 28 with my H3D39 day in day out and I actually never have the feeling I am missing too much WA. And if I would miss it, I would go for a tech camera in front of my 39MP back.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Correct and the bottom line it really is a 30mm. Let's remember theses are the only 2 28mm's on the market outside of tech lenses. Not a easy lens to design so I give them both a lot of credit for what they can do outside there small issues. Rather have it than not and I use mine all the time. Probably would have never gone into MF to begin with not having them on the market.
    Good point.
    Zeiss designed the 35mm for Contax and the 30mm fisheye for Hasselblad. That was for a 60mm film (6x6 645 etc) I can only believe they saw this as a reasonable limit for rectilinear MF lenses (and even the 35mm is about a 21mm equivalent). Other wise they had a separate system for really WA. (film had SOME advantages! :-)

    If you need more you can shift or stitch. Is less than 21mm really critical for most work (I do remmeber an excellent cockpit shot, 21mm C/Y wasn't it? by Guy)

    Anyway, 28 pushes it down to 17mm ?

    Maybe it is, as Guy says, just awfully tough to get down there with a reasonable size and price.

    Victor

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    ..
    I am using the HCD 28 with my H3D39 day in day out and I actually never have the feeling I am missing too much WA. And if I would miss it, I would go for a tech camera in front of my 39MP back.
    Can the H3d39 go on a tech? say alpa?

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Can the H3d39 go on a tech? say alpa?
    Yes of course, it can! Needs the adapter and then you go!

    You need the external power supply of course, which comes from Hasselblad with internal hard drive.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    hmmm... that's too bad, needing an external power.
    I use the Alpa TC as a "walkaround" with a 47mm (or 35mm) and P65+ really small.
    will the H4d series allow use on tech cameras with just the battery?

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    hmmm... that's too bad, needing an external power.
    I use the Alpa TC as a "walkaround" with a 47mm (or 35mm) and P65+ really small.
    will the H4d series allow use on tech cameras with just the battery?
    No, not that I would know - unfortunately!

    Hope I would be wrong ....

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    How is your TC configured? I would like to use it that way (Hasselblad 50), but with the sync cable, the FW cable, the external battery, and the tiny little black handgrip, it is just not easy to hold. It lives on a tripod.

    The H4D/60 back will require external power, either from a battery (e.g. Tekkeon) or the ImageBank. Only good part of that is that the external batteries last a long time.

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Good point.
    Is less than 21mm really critical for most work (I do remmeber an excellent cockpit shot, 21mm C/Y wasn't it? by Guy)


    I spend much of my life in narrow alleyways with my back up against a wall

    In the past even the ArcBody/35mm and SWC/38mm have been not been wide enough.The Hasselblad 28mm has been a revelation for me, enabling me to shoot 4 metre high subjects in 2 metre wide alleys. The image quality of the 28mm is remarkable for what is essentially a super-wide MF DSLR lens. Centre definition is as near as damn it on a par with the 80mm and the edges are not far off. Yes, there's distortion, but the DAC corrections do a remarkable job in correcting for it.

    I've tried using tech cameras in these situations and frankly they just get in my way. The H series and particularly the 28mm have changed my life!

    Keith

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    When you need it, you need it. I know there was a lot of talk of the SK 24mm and the new Rodey 23mm, and how they held up with PC. A tech can get down to 15-16mm but then you lose if you do post correction.

    I've found stitching for really wide shots works for me, but the perspective of course is not the same.

    Keith, I like the shot, esp the color splash. and contrast. Did you boost the saturation, or was the scene that dramatic (here, the extra punch works well.)

    Victor

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Did you boost the saturation, or was the scene that dramatic (here, the extra punch works well.)
    Victor

    Shot in very overcast flat light resulting in a particularly flat image. WB adjustment, curves adjustment and tweak on vibrancy.

    I've always thought that the least interesting aspect of life is fidelity.

    Keith

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    keith: nice shot and I know what you mean, backed up against the wall. try and do that without the waistlevel finder, eh?

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Yup, it sure ain't easy with the prism

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post

    I've always thought that the least interesting aspect of life is fidelity.

    Keith
    Words to live by.

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    tokengirl, love your doggie

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    I should perhaps add that I've been with the best girl in the world for the last 40 years!


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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post


    I spend much of my life in narrow alleyways with my back up against a wall

    In the past even the ArcBody/35mm and SWC/38mm have been not been wide enough.The Hasselblad 28mm has been a revelation for me, enabling me to shoot 4 metre high subjects in 2 metre wide alleys. The image quality of the 28mm is remarkable for what is essentially a super-wide MF DSLR lens. Centre definition is as near as damn it on a par with the 80mm and the edges are not far off. Yes, there's distortion, but the DAC corrections do a remarkable job in correcting for it.

    I've tried using tech cameras in these situations and frankly they just get in my way. The H series and particularly the 28mm have changed my life!

    Keith
    F-A-B-U-L-I-C-I-O-U-S Photo Keith! (as usual : -)

    I've had the same experience shooting industrial photos where I had to get in an entire dyno room ... cramped to the point that the digital back itself was pressed against the wall ... without the HC/28 and waist level finder it would have been near impossible ... and with all that complex machinery, shot at the angle they wanted, stitching would have been a nightmare if it would've work at all.

    That combo on the H3D-II/39 has saved my bacon more than once.

    -Marc

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    Re: H4D60 and HCD 4/28

    Marc, there's nothing quite as rewarding than receiving a compliment from someone for whom you have the greatest of respect.

    Many thanks, much appreciated!

    The HCD/28 was probably the biggest factor in deciding on the switch from V to H.

    Keith

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