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Thread: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

  1. #51
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    I would like to know what will Phase One add more for me to shots like that?!!!
    Just some extra dollars ?

    lol

  2. #52
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Interesting to read the comments. One of the best things about this site, IMO, is the lack of "fanboy-ism." I don't have either system so I can't comment on Mark's conclusions but the one area that elicited a WTF were his comments about Phocus. I just have an entry level, older tech., CFV back, but a few weeks ago I shot a color chart and also underexposures for some non-scientific tests. Phocus 2.x did an amazing job of color rendition. The unadjusted colors, comparing prints vs. the chart were nearly dead-on with only a slight difference in red. Phocus also was able to "pull" detail out of very underexposed shadows with very acceptable noise levels. The same files converted using ACR/LR were terrible. Makes me wonder why Mark's results were so "off".

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Most if not all digital camera's tend to underexpose and most manufacturers do that for a reason to protect blow outs. None of them are designed that I have come across go to the far right but more smack in the middle of the histo. BTW my Phase files are not worth salt in ACR or LR. They simply can't read the files properly.

    BTW thanks for that comment on GetDPI it means a lot to Jack and I
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome View Post
    Just some extra dollars ?

    lol
    That can be the same with H4D-50 or H4D-60 as well

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by mAlKhamis View Post
    Is that freaking DXO mark true (((( i'm so upset now !!! please tell it's not please any one !!
    No RAW-file truly contains the data that was read out directly from the sensor. For example: the dark-shot taken by a back is not actually stored in the RAW-file.

    The amount of processing that takes place before the data hits the file is, generally, lighter in a back than a DSLR. This implies that a back is more dependent on the RAW converter than images from a DSLR.

    What you see is not a direct apples to apples since DxO-mark is based on data after a different number of stages in the processing.

    Unfortunately DxO has now given the vendors a reason to make the RAW-files look "nice". This also means that new technology in RAW-conversion will probably not be able to improve current DSLRs that much in the future. That is a crying shame :-(

  6. #56
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I don't believe any review I read of Luminous Landscape. The last time I did that was during the M8 magenta issue "crisis." And anyway, didn't MR have a very public bust up with Hasselblad and as a result hasn't been sent anything by them to review since?

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Here's my take on this review:

    I immediately had a credibility issue ... not from my bias from selecting a Hasselblad, but more from actually using a Hasselblad. Don't care what this person's credentials are, personal experience trumps credentials every time in my book.

    The meter issue is pure nonsense ... actually it's ludicrous. Either Marc D has incredibly rotten luck and got 2 bad cameras that were defective in exactly the same way (odds of that?), or something else is up which I won't speculate on. If my Hassey gear was that much off, they would have heard my expletive-deleatives all the way to Denmark and Sweden ... because I sure am NOT shy about stuff like that.

    The color issue was so blatantly a result of lack of knowledge on the use of Phocus as to render all following evaluations suspect. Especially true for the latest version of Phocus which has a bit of a learning curve even for experienced users of Phocus. I literally laughed out loud when I looked at the color of Hassey shot ... set up your defaults and preferences for crying out loud. I'd speculate that if I were to process the same images my relative lack of skill with C1 compared to Phocus would render opposite results to his.

    If using these programs was a no-brainer and it was all rote learning, there would be no need for instructions or even seminars on the use of Phocus or C1 to get the most out of them.

    I admit to not understanding the "plastic" comment ... H cameras are made using solid stainless steel housings and high-strength aluminum for the core ... not plastic. I'll leave it to a Phase One camera owner to comment on what their camera is made of ... which I doubt is all plastic. Not sure what he's asking for here ... a chrome plated camera?

    What I did glean from the article is that for most practical purposes, the 60 meg sensor looks like a good compromise to the more limited use MS camera ... unless most of the work is in the studio shooting fabrics and minute detail.



    If someone wants to bias a test, here's a hint ... make it more subtile and not laughably obvious. Winning by a nose is enough at these prices.

    Speaking of prices: I just got an e-mail from my Hassey dealer. Blow-Out special pricing on a new H3D-II/31 with full factory warranty:

    $11,995. for the complete kit with 80 lens ... $9,995. without lens.

    Glad I sold my H3D-II/31 some time ago.

    What a rotten investment this stuff is unless you get off the upgrade merry-go-round and learn to love the one you're with ... or jump on the recent promos before the manufactures come to their senses again

    Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Hey All,

    It seems most of you have realised something was a miss with the test. Somebody asked me to comment on Lume Landscape, so ill x-post my reply here, just incase it is interesting...


    As usual these kinds of tests are fraught with difficulties. The comparison has caused lots of debate here and also over on getdpi.

    I don't know Mark personally or really have an insight into what he does, but his comments on Phocus applying multiple factors to an image even though defaults are set to zero, simply does not stack up.

    Time and time again if you compare and H product to a Phase product normally our default rendering is slightly lower contrast and slightly lower saturation. No method is 'wrong' it is just the way we have decided to do things.

    Therefore for Mark to find the opposite points that something was not quite right with the settings. Furthermore, stating that Reproduction mode needs to be found every time Phocus is started is also not the case which indicates perhaps Mark was not that comfortable in using Phocus and perhaps did not have everything set to default.

    Actually describing the image as Velvia++ really does point to an error somewhere.

    Reproduction mode was probably also not his best choice for the kind of images he was shooting. Secondly to say colours and contrast are even exaggerated in Repro mode really means something was a miss elsewhere! Mark is welcome to send me one of his files and I can happily look at it.

    Nobody should EVER have to desaturate colours in Repro mode. So I really wonder what Mark did!!! There must have been all kinds of funky settings going against each other.

    There is also a strange comment that Mark said he left Hasselblad because of the closed system argument... and then goes on to praise that aspect of the camera as being much better than Phase One?

    I also just noticed that on some of the comparison shots the P65 is at 91.5%? I would prefer to see both at 100% regardless of any image size differences.

    Anyway, I could go on but I am comforted by the fact that many institutions around the world (Tate London, National Gallery, London, Van Gogh Museum, EMMA, Australian Museums / Archives...multiples in the USA) chose Hasselblad Multi Shot systems for a) Color accuracy b) Repro mode and c) High resolution without artefacting / moire.

    With these kinds of tests I would prefer that an experienced Capture One user handle the Phase side of things and an experienced Phocus user handled Hasselblad. They wouldn't even have to be in the same room - maybe a blind test would be better!



    Happy weekend to all - I am off out to enjoy the sunshine.

  9. #59
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    "The color issue was so blatantly a result of lack of knowledge on the use of Phocus as to render all following evaluations suspect."
    *******
    Even with my lack of knowledge of Phocus, the colors and saturation were very close to my color chart at default settings. If, as Michael Reichman says: "Mark is familiar with the scientific method" then Mark, as a scientist will redo his testing because his conclusions about metering and Phocus don't seem to correlate with others experience.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Folks,

    why not just agree that this Mark Dubovoy is absolutely screwed with this test. Why care any longer?

    Many testers screw up, testing is not easy, too many people feel well enough educated to do it but unfortunately have most time no glue. Mark belongs to this species obviously!
    Last edited by ptomsu; 7th March 2010 at 09:03.

  11. #61
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Hey folks...

    I just returned yesterday from our Salton Sea workshop, so missed most of this thread while it was going on and need to weigh in...

    First off, I will point you to our forum rules section and remind you that we place polite discussion above all else. So while you are welcome to disagree with the writer of the article, free to offer suggestions about how his test might have been improved, and even suggest he could have worded his feelings towards Hasselblad a bit more civilly, it does not mean you have free reign to turn to personalized attacks against him and name calling.

    Secondly, I met Mark a few years ago when he was just getting into single-capture MF and I can tell you he is a good guy and is technically savvy when it comes to digital imaging. He is not a member of GetDPI that I know of, and frankly I'm not sure he even reads our site, but regardless our rules hold, and as such I remind you that he (and/or Michael Reichmann and/or the Luminous Landscape site in general) deserve to be treated respectfully. So let's get off the name calling and elevate the discussion to a more professional level going forward.

    Thank you,

    Jack
    ~~~

    PS edit: I just read the article in question and have a few additional comments. I would like to point out that Mark did in fact add a disclaimer about being biased, and while he didn't specifically indicate he was not facile with Phocus, I think the implication was there. In fact I give him credit for offering essentially the same set of disclaimers that I did when we did the S2 and P40+/P65+ comparison.

    Thanks again,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Have to agree with Jack , I hear nice things of him and he is very competent shooter. So the test may not what you believe is valued or not regardless we at GetDpi do NOT condone personal attacks. I'm out of the office and on iPhone but let's chill on him please.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Now,

    Speaking personally going forward, I think the best thing they could do at this point is offer up the raws as we did in the S2 comparison -- I'd even be happy to host them for him if he has limited bandwidth. In this fashion our more experienced Phocus users could have a crack at them and we could perhaps get a more substantive comparison.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I have to agree with David. I have been shooting multi-shot commercially for 10 years and the difference between multi and single is very pronounced for static subjects. The comments about "over saturated" colours do not add up and indicate that the tester made a mistake somewhere. I think it's a shame that such a deeply flawed review should be endorsed by Luminous Landscape.
    Nick-T

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    wow
    I don't own any MF DB gear, but I'm a frequent renter, I shoot both Phase and hasselblad.
    My choice when renting is based on needs, availability and pricing.
    I prefer Capture one software to Phocus, that's my bias/opinion.
    Even then I have no idea what the reviewer is speaking about with Phocus defaults being "Velvia ++" IF anything I always find images open up very flat in phocus before applying any correction. It's True that phocus does pre apply your DAC correction, but nothing else at the start.
    I can't for a second agree with his conclusion that the H3D2-50 is so disappointing in single capture mode. I have personally shot with the H3D2-50 and find the files superb. I have never shot with any sort of MS back so can't comment on that.
    If anything when I did my very first MF demo it was with a P30+ on a AFD3 body and H3D2-31 side by side for a full weekend, phase files were processed with 4.x and the HB with phocus 1.x
    processing the same image shot with both camera's back to back, I regularly managed to produce files that were 99.9% identical, and one had to resort to the file names to determine which is which.
    Both Phocus and C1 have improved since then, so I can't see why his test are so far apart.

    As I said earlier I don't own either system, but I do find such reviews very disappointing, Frankly if this was my own test the results were so far apart, I would stop and see if there is a flaw in the gear or workflow.
    but hey that's just me!
    ok off the soap box.
    am

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    It's True that phocus does pre apply your DAC correction, but nothing else at the start.
    You can turn this feature off very easily.

    Kind regards,
    Derek

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by jecxz View Post
    You can turn this feature off very easily.

    Kind regards,
    Derek
    Exactly, you can turn it off, but actually this is one of the coolest functions/features of Phocus. I have this always on!

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Exactly, you can turn it off, but actually this is one of the coolest functions/features of Phocus. I have this always on!
    I didn't mean it that way, I was just correcting the notion that it can't be turned off. It is a very good feature indeed. Be well.

    Kind regards,
    Derek

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Derek
    your correct, and I didn't mean to give the impression that it can't be over-riden
    I think the general notion here is that it's cool for it to be on and have all the files look right from the start.
    thanks
    am

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Have to agree with Jack , I hear nice things of him and he is very competent shooter. So the test may not what you believe is valued or not regardless we at GetDpi do NOT condone personal attacks. I'm out of the office and on iPhone but let's chill on him please.
    Jack and Guy,

    I strongly agree with you both. I have shot with Mark and believe me, he's a fine shooter, fine artist and to the extent I am qualified to judge, a fine scientist. (Also, if it's relevant, a fine wine lover too!)

    I don't have strong opinions on his article because I've never shot H'Blad digital. But I implicitly trust him to write an honest review as he sees things.

    Bill

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Jack and Guy,

    I strongly agree with you both. I have shot with Mark and believe me, he's a fine shooter, fine artist and to the extent I am qualified to judge, a fine scientist. (Also, if it's relevant, a fine wine lover too!)

    I don't have strong opinions on his article because I've never shot H'Blad digital. But I implicitly trust him to write an honest review as he sees things.

    Bill
    I'm sure he's a good guy.
    He has however made some significant errors along the way that have resulted in a completely flawed result. The article should really be taken down..

    Nick-T

  22. #72
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    I'm sure he's a good guy.
    He has however made some significant errors along the way that have resulted in a completely flawed result. The article should really be taken down..

    Nick-T
    The comments at LuLA have gone far out into the weeds so I will ask here. In the article fig 3 is a comparison between 'blad-phase but the "phase" capture is labeled multi-shot. I may be reading it wrong but..

    My question is, in fig 3, left panel there is severe blue color fringing in the trees. I see the same effect with my "entry" level CFV back in similar situations. Is this an inherent problem with digital, Kodak sensors, some/all Hasselblad backs or something else? I usually discard images that have this problem but I found one still "lurking" in my files.

    Steve

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    Super Duper
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Jack and Guy,

    I strongly agree with you both. I have shot with Mark and believe me, he's a fine shooter, fine artist and to the extent I am qualified to judge, a fine scientist. (Also, if it's relevant, a fine wine lover too!)

    I don't have strong opinions on his article because I've never shot H'Blad digital. But I implicitly trust him to write an honest review as he sees things.

    Bill
    Not sure what bearing the "buddy" reference has to do with anything.

    Let's cut to the chase:

    Does ANYONE here really think a Hasselblad H camera overexposes as much as stated in this review? Really now, do you?

    How many contrary testimonials by a number of owner/shooters concerning color comments/Phocus are required to counter this single review? One from a skilled user like Nick T should be enough ... but it isn't.

    The bias caveats that he states up front do not absolve someone from the responsibility of coming to biased conclusions under the guise of a "scientific" comparison which these tests always are viewed as.

    I grasp his credentials regarding Phase products ... I see nothing to indicate any credentials concerning the use of current Hasselblad products.



    Here is an honest opinion of my own. (My friends think I'm a nice guy, a pretty good at what I do, and I also like fine wine ... but then, that also described Bernie Madoff, so we'll set that aside).

    This is a terribly flawed report that does a disservice to the whole arena of Medium Format Digital Photography.

    IMO, this Bi-partisan squabbling is getting more sickening by the day and is sucking the fun out of coming here to share photographic adventures.

    Marc

  24. #74
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Agreed Marc. Let's all get back to sharing photographic adventures.

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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