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Thread: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

  1. #1
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    Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF...Interesting evaluation.

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re.../h3d50ii.shtml

    Steve

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Mark Dubovoy is an incredible photographer and I have found his articles to be very informative. I was surprised by this article, I expected the multi-shot version of the hasselblad to perform much better. If you were shooting high end product photography maybe this would be a good choice over a P65+ but on most other things I don't see a real advantage to the multi-shot.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Well, I must say I usually nail down the exposure pretty right with my H3D39 without any adjustments, so I do not know which problems he had with the Hasselblads (H2 and H3D50)?

    I also find the colors from the Hasselblad (at least the 39MP back) in combination with Phocus 2.0 outstanding - was much harder to get these colors with the Phase backs I used. The 50MP back from Hasselblad is said to have even better colors - I do not have any experiences here, but that he finds Hasselblad colors bad just tells something.

    Given these facts I find such reviews and tests just a waste of time. Obviously something must have gone wrong

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I find that one cannot judge color accurately unless one is comparing the 2 files side-by-side. I believe Mark did just that. In that respect, I tend to believe him.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I read the article it had a lto of words in it - but I finished reading it because I had a spare 10 minutes..

    all these words can be summarized as - Phase One is so much better in every respect to Hasselblad..

    thanks for the link it was very funny reading - almost as much fun as checking out the LL owners photography - made me laugh even harder.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I read the article it had a lto of words in it - but I finished reading it because I had a spare 10 minutes..

    all these words can be summarized as - Phase One is so much better in every respect to Hasselblad..

    thanks for the link it was very funny reading - almost as much fun as checking out the LL owners photography - made me laugh even harder.
    Peter

    exactly, this is the final point of what is called a review: Phase is MUCH better in all respects than Hasselblad.

    Should I feel now really bad because I bought into that bloody bad Hasselblad system instead of Phase? Should I cry or laugh

    Feel more like cannot stop laughing as well

    PS: this hardens my experiences and opinion about Luminous Landscape - maybe they should call themselves Curious Landscape - just a suggestion ...

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Peter

    exactly, this is the final point of what is called a review: Phase is MUCH better in all respects than Hasselblad.

    Should I feel now really bad because I bought into that bloody bad Hasselblad system instead of Phase? Should I cry or laugh

    Feel more like cannot stop laughing as well

    PS: this hardens my experiences and opinion about Luminous Landscape - maybe they should call themselves Curious Landscape - just a suggestion ...
    Honestly i don't like to be in LL because i feel about 90% or so are with Phase One system, i feel like i did a big mistake to go with Hasselblad then, even it is funny many maybe using Phase One digital back on Hasselblad body, but what makes me happy is many people here or around the world know the word Hasselblad and they don't know what is Phase One, and i am happy with Hasselblad even i dream or feel i want Phase One.

    I hate to read those reviews because it is almost personal more than a fact or scientific view, so i don't care what is the conclusion if that person did that test himself, i can use Hasselblad or Phase One for what they are made for and i will never do a test review to say that one system is way better over the another, sure someone else will do a test and will say that Hasselblad is winner over Phase One, so what is the point of all that, to watch and laugh?!!!

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    And good here on GetDPI there are Hasselblad owners, i will feel depressed is more than 70% here go with Phase One and then down the Hasselblad, ofcourse if i have a choice i can go with Phase One, but i don't like the point that Phase One is top over that Hasselblad, even if it is true that will not make Phase One getting 95% and Hasselblad 70%, also it is so proud that Hasselbald won TIPA more than Once over that Phase One.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    The review is riddled with problems.

    To start with, Marc starts as an owner of the one system, and so at a subconscious level the Phase will to him have an advantage, and he will be able to get more out of it. At a conscious level one can discount such factors, but muscle memory, for example, will always favour the camera he owns.

    In the studio, he chose a lighting scenario which wipes out one huge advantage of the Hasselblad: the high sync speed of all lenses.

    The metering I cannot comment on, but it sounds highly unlikely to me that the Hasselblad meters that badly for everyone out there. I don't know what was wrong in the setup he tested. It should perhaps be mentioned here that when people actually buy a system, they may go through extensive hoop jumping to get a good copy of everything, like the 3 lenses that some buy, only to keep the best and send the other 2 back. When you test such a system against an off-the-shelf competitor, there is an inherent imbalance. Joseph Holmes had one Phase back which was 170 microns off! Imagine the test results if that was what Marc had used.

    He cautions that one should not confuse resolution with sharpness, and then he shows a newspaper and confuses resolution with sharpness! If he wants to test resolution, he should use a resolution test target. Adding a little sharpening and contrast to the Hasselblad image would vastly improve its appearance compared to the Phase shot, but I don't see the Phase out-resolving the Hasselblad in this shot. Finally, using a normal lens very close up is more likely to show up differences in the lens. He should use a macro lens close up or a normal lens at normal distances. In the later MS vs. P65+ comparison he observes how blotchy the Phase suddenly renders the dots in the print, but fails to make a comparison to the first image where the Hasselblad was blotchy, and he also fails to condemn the Phase for the blotchiness in the same way he condemned the H3DII-50MS for blotchiness.

    I think that what he is dealing with is designing tests where the interaction of the subject at the pixel-level is skewing the results. On fredmiranda.com there was one guy who tested a Canon 5D against a Leica M8 for resolution, and his test was done in such a way that the Canon could just barely resolve some text at a distance, but the Leica, having 10MP vs. 12.7MP, failed spectacularly on this target. This kind of test is only relevant at that exact distance. A little further, and both would fail to render the text. A little closer and both would render the text. The same might be happening here. A little larger, and neither would have blotches. A little smaller, and both might have blotches (like would certainly have been the case if he had shot the Hasselblad in single-shot mode in the second test). In the first test, he found the exact distance where the Hasselblad's slight deficiency in pixels led to blotchiness but where the Phase was still okay, condemned the Hasselblad and stopped using it in single-shot mode. Horrible reporting. He really needs to try all modes all the way and not remove one mode from the equation for a poor result on one test.

    His Velvia++ comments are also suspect, and he fails to document it. The one example he shows (the lawn and trees), the colours start fairly close, and some parts look better on the Hasselblad shot, others on the Phase shot. He then goes on to trounce the Hasselblad...

    His comment on the dynamic range of current 35mm DSLRs being 7 stops is truly bizarre. I am not sure if any pro-level DSLR has ever had that little dynamic range, but the current kings of DR are the P65+ and the D3x. He really needs to back off there or back up his statement. The statement about 12-14bits vs. 16 bits is also blinkered, given that the 16 bits of MF is often theory only, let down by the ADC. See comments by the author of one RAW package on LL.

    He also fails to mention what a fantastic deal it is for the H4D-50MS to be several thousand cheaper than a P65+ single-shot.

    Marc Dubovoy is perhaps well respected, but ultimately, I think he falls into the same old trap: he exaggerates small differences in the results, and fails to account for some pretty significant differences in the starting point. On top of this, he seems to misinterpret some test results, leading to wrong conclusions.

    ---

    Ultimately we all want to own the best that we can afford, but it should not be forgotten that any of these systems, whether from Hasselblad, Phase, Sinar or Leaf, can be used to get fantastic results. The difference between 22MP and 60MP is sometimes important, but more often, it makes little difference, single-shot or multi-shot. Only in specific, limited scenarios do these differences start to become important. We should also not forget that for every person who likes the handling of a camera, there is someone else who cannot stand it.

    To be honest, these cameras/backs are almost all so good that comparison testing makes little sense to report on. We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences. Marc's review does a huge disservice to Hasselblad and their loyal customers, and I don't say that as a Hasselblad fan, as most people around here are fully aware.
    Carsten - Website

  10. #10
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Excellent comment, Carsten.

    Furthermore one should take as much time to evaluate the system(s) of his choice as he did when deciding on his wife (although that took me a split second).

    Warmest,

    Ton

    http://www.tonvanmourik.com/

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The review is riddled with problems.

    To start with, Marc starts as an owner of the one system, and so at a subconscious level the Phase will to him have an advantage, and he will be able to get more out of it. At a conscious level one can discount such factors, but muscle memory, for example, will always favour the camera he owns.

    In the studio, he chose a lighting scenario which wipes out one huge advantage of the Hasselblad: the high sync speed of all lenses.

    The metering I cannot comment on, but it sounds highly unlikely to me that the Hasselblad meters that badly for everyone out there. I don't know what was wrong in the setup he tested. It should perhaps be mentioned here that when people actually buy a system, they may go through extensive hoop jumping to get a good copy of everything, like the 3 lenses that some buy, only to keep the best and send the other 2 back. When you test such a system against an off-the-shelf competitor, there is an inherent imbalance. Joseph Holmes had one Phase back which was 170 microns off! Imagine the test results if that was what Marc had used.

    He cautions that one should not confuse resolution with sharpness, and then he shows a newspaper and confuses resolution with sharpness! If he wants to test resolution, he should use a resolution test target. Adding a little sharpening and contrast to the Hasselblad image would vastly improve its appearance compared to the Phase shot, but I don't see the Phase out-resolving the Hasselblad in this shot. Finally, using a normal lens very close up is more likely to show up differences in the lens. He should use a macro lens close up or a normal lens at normal distances. In the later MS vs. P65+ comparison he observes how blotchy the Phase suddenly renders the dots in the print, but fails to make a comparison to the first image where the Hasselblad was blotchy, and he also fails to condemn the Phase for the blotchiness in the same way he condemned the H3DII-50MS for blotchiness.

    I think that what he is dealing with is designing tests where the interaction of the subject at the pixel-level is skewing the results. On fredmiranda.com there was one guy who tested a Canon 5D against a Leica M8 for resolution, and his test was done in such a way that the Canon could just barely resolve some text at a distance, but the Leica, having 10MP vs. 12.7MP, failed spectacularly on this target. This kind of test is only relevant at that exact distance. A little further, and both would fail to render the text. A little closer and both would render the text. The same might be happening here. A little larger, and neither would have blotches. A little smaller, and both might have blotches (like would certainly have been the case if he had shot the Hasselblad in single-shot mode in the second test). In the first test, he found the exact distance where the Hasselblad's slight deficiency in pixels led to blotchiness but where the Phase was still okay, condemned the Hasselblad and stopped using it in single-shot mode. Horrible reporting. He really needs to try all modes all the way and not remove one mode from the equation for a poor result on one test.

    His Velvia++ comments are also suspect, and he fails to document it. The one example he shows (the lawn and trees), the colours start fairly close, and some parts look better on the Hasselblad shot, others on the Phase shot. He then goes on to trounce the Hasselblad...

    His comment on the dynamic range of current 35mm DSLRs being 7 stops is truly bizarre. I am not sure if any pro-level DSLR has ever had that little dynamic range, but the current kings of DR are the P65+ and the D3x. He really needs to back off there or back up his statement. The statement about 12-14bits vs. 16 bits is also blinkered, given that the 16 bits of MF is often theory only, let down by the ADC. See comments by the author of one RAW package on LL.

    He also fails to mention what a fantastic deal it is for the H4D-50MS to be several thousand cheaper than a P65+ single-shot.

    Marc Dubovoy is perhaps well respected, but ultimately, I think he falls into the same old trap: he exaggerates small differences in the results, and fails to account for some pretty significant differences in the starting point. On top of this, he seems to misinterpret some test results, leading to wrong conclusions.

    ---

    Ultimately we all want to own the best that we can afford, but it should not be forgotten that any of these systems, whether from Hasselblad, Phase, Sinar or Leaf, can be used to get fantastic results. The difference between 22MP and 60MP is sometimes important, but more often, it makes little difference, single-shot or multi-shot. Only in specific, limited scenarios do these differences start to become important. We should also not forget that for every person who likes the handling of a camera, there is someone else who cannot stand it.

    To be honest, these cameras/backs are almost all so good that comparison testing makes little sense to report on. We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences. Marc's review does a huge disservice to Hasselblad and their loyal customers, and I don't say that as a Hasselblad fan, as most people around here are fully aware.
    Well nuf said!

    Good there are people like you can read all the details about those kind of tests to respond, believe it, i really didn't know anything about that test review, the shots were like mixed, some shots are better with Hassy and the other shots are better with Phase, so i was not sure what he is trying to say or to show, it is really annoying when one System against another one can do great job and in the conclusion they knock it down it seems like they intentionally were planning to degrade[don't know another better word in English] of one system at the end anyway.

    We will see who will do the test when that H4D-60 come out against P65+, at least Phase One doesn't have 50mp and also no multishot camera

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Great post, Carsten!

    Reading those reviews (what a waste of time, actually…) I am always thinking: why it is not made made by two photographers - one who is experienced with the P65+ and C1 and one who is experienced with the H3D50MS and Phocus? One who is used to the ergonomics of the P1 camera and one who is used to the ergonomics of the H camera.
    And both know the strengths and weaknesses of their system...
    I don't think he screwed-up the test (at least not intentionally) but I'm almost sure the results would have been different if two guys would have made it together.
    If I were in the market for either the H50MS or the P65+ this review wouldn't tell me anything I'd like to know…

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    To be honest, these cameras/backs are almost all so good that comparison testing makes little sense to report on. We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences. Marc's review does a huge disservice to Hasselblad and their loyal customers, and I don't say that as a Hasselblad fan, as most people around here are fully aware.
    Carsten, agree to all what you state here!

    Especially to your last sentence. I tested for myself the whole year 2009 before I decided for a System and it was almost impossible to allocate one system being clearly better than another - especially comparing Phase and Hasselblad. Maybe my test were not scientific enough and thus also not be appropriate to be published, but meanwhile I have the feeling that they were better than many tests you can read on several different sites in the Internet, especially LL.

    Finally I had to make a choice and it was a combination of IQ, handling, availability, support and of course price. The one factor which made me hesitate for long time to buy into HB was that I am an experienced C1 user. But exactly this fact turned out to be a no brainer, as Phocus 2.0 is a marvellous PP SW tool and in combination with the 3F files it is hardly to beat WRT IQ (color, DR, etc etc). This is why I really doubt the test methods this guy had in place.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences.
    Exactly right.

    One day I will test both Hasselblad and Phase One systems to figure out what is right for me. And guess what? I will not take any pictures of newspapers or circuit boards or color charts. I will make photos that I care about, and I will process those images like I care about them, and I will print them like it matters.

    Honestly, I bet that the differences between the two systems will mostly be about how useful I find the features for the way I like to work.

    Oh, and since I make pictures for primarily my own personal recreation, once I decide which system is best for me, I won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    Exactly right.

    One day I will test both Hasselblad and Phase One systems to figure out what is right for me. And guess what? I will not take any pictures of newspapers or circuit boards or color charts. I will make photos that I care about, and I will process those images like I care about them, and I will print them like it matters.

    Honestly, I bet that the differences between the two systems will mostly be about how useful I find the features for the way I like to work.

    Oh, and since I make pictures for primarily my own personal recreation, once I decide which system is best for me, I won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.
    Go for what you feel comfortable with and don't look back.
    By the way, i have 2 Hasselblad cameras, one id digital and one is film, to make myself in safe side as what i did in Canon line, i will buy a Phase One DB, so then i will not have a confusion which is better, i will have both and never look back

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    To start with, Marc starts as an owner of the one system, and so at a subconscious level the Phase will to him have an advantage, and he will be able to get more out of it. At a conscious level one can discount such factors, but muscle memory, for example, will always favour the camera he owns.
    There is an even more important aspect to this good point:

    If Marc came to the conclusion that Hasselblad was better, then his $40,000+ investment in Phase One was wrong. Many people lack the ability to stand up in public and state that they have made a mistake on a $40,000+ investment. The subconscious forces steering his review would have been invisible. Most people want to prove they do the right thing or make the right choices (it's only human). I mean no disrespect to Marc (I don't know him) in saying this, however, it's generally true.

    As for metering issues: My 40,000+ exposure experience with two H2's and four H3DII39's says this is wrong.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    www.jecxz.com
    Last edited by jecxz; 6th March 2010 at 04:40. Reason: Spelling error

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    Exactly right.

    One day I will test both Hasselblad and Phase One systems to figure out what is right for me. And guess what? I will not take any pictures of newspapers or circuit boards or color charts. I will make photos that I care about, and I will process those images like I care about them, and I will print them like it matters.

    Honestly, I bet that the differences between the two systems will mostly be about how useful I find the features for the way I like to work.

    Oh, and since I make pictures for primarily my own personal recreation, once I decide which system is best for me, I won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.
    Did the same thing and never regret so far and also think not in the future.

    And even if some facts will change how I do photography and what I need in the future, well then I might switch to a different system or buy as a second one and not look back in an angry way, because each system is right for me for the time I use it. Otherwise I would not have bought anymore.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by jecxz View Post
    There is an even more important aspect to this good point:

    If Marc came to the conclusion that Hasselblad was better, then his $40,000+ investment in Phase One was wrong. Many people lack the ability to stand up in public and state that they have made a mistake on a $40,000+ investment. The subconscious forces steering his review would have been invisible. Most people want to prove they do the right thing or make the right choices (it's only human). I mean no disrespect to Marc (I don't know him) in saying this, however, it's true.
    this is a strange argument... to me.
    If he came to the conclusion that both produce the same quality... it wouldn't be a "problem" for him. Of course, to him, the $40K still would be the "right" investment as he has several bodies/lenses/acessories for his system. And as he shoots tech/view cameras there would be another point in favor for a Phase back.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The metering I cannot comment on, but it sounds highly unlikely to me that the Hasselblad meters that badly for everyone out there.
    I have no dog in this race being a Sinar shooter but the comments on how poorly the Hasselblad meters struck me as improbable at best. If this were the usual state of affairs I would expect to have read/heard about this extensively. Frankly, if I were comparing two systems and ran into this I'd think I had a faulty kit. I didn't come away from the article with the feeling that the author set out to do a hatchet job on Hassy... more that he simply doesn't know how to get the best out of that system.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    this is a strange argument... to me.
    If he came to the conclusion that both produce the same quality... it wouldn't be a "problem" for him. Of course, to him, the $40K still would be the "right" investment as he has several bodies/lenses/acessories for his system. And as he shoots tech/view cameras there would be another point in favor for a Phase back.
    Nothing strange at all in pointing out a potential subconscious bias.

    Marc, to his credit, states "I firmly believe that we all have biases, and I am certainly no exception."

    These systems are huge investments and one generally wants to make the "best" decision.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    www.jecxz.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I didn't come away from the article with the feeling that the author set out to do a hatchet job on Hassy... more that he simply doesn't know how to get the best out of that system.
    This is also my reaction to the article.

    All of these kits will obviously make fine images if used for tasks for which they are well suited, and by photographers who understand how to get the most from each.

    (I also agree with the remarks suggesting that one has conscious and sub-conscious prejudices or "justifications" that color such "reviews". I mean no disrespect to Marc D., but suggest that this is why one must do their own research and make decisions based on personal preferences.)

    Carsten's post above is fair (as are others') and well stated IMO.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by jecxz View Post
    These systems are huge investments and one generally wants to make the "best" decision.
    yes, but the "best" decission is the one that suits to your existing gear. So he wouldn't give away anything if IQ would be the same. Unless he is a very narrow minded person...

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I have the 50 MP in test right now, it's an amazing camera and back.

    The last time I saw this Mark Dubovoy, it was at Death Valley where he was working for P1 workshop with Mickael Reichmann : I suppose he should honestly tell he isn't unconnected with P1 before making a "fair" test.

    I must say that a test where the guy shot his garden after having explained "he carefully choose subject without depth" and that he tried to find the best adjustment in Phocus so the images don't look "too good" his just hilarious and ridiculous

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF


    people should never dive or type ..under the influence -

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I am doing that right now...comparing H and P...doing mainly macro shots of watches...see the Fun with MF thread. Watches are my principal subjects, as well as studio portraits...mainly beauty. So I shoot these to try out both systems.

    I am nearing my conclusions...in terms of IQ, I think both are very, very good. So its up to preferences...and my personal preferences lean me towards one system rather than the other.

    A review like this from Marc Dubovoy does not help me (or people like me) one bit in making my decisions. Its just too biased, and too much highliting small issues which may not affect my style of shooting.

    But participating in a forum like this (thanks Guy and Jack) does help, though the real test is to handle the cameras, shooting subjects important to you. I am going to buy the system which brings a smile to my face when I shoot and see the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Did the same thing and never regret so far and also think not in the future.

    And even if some facts will change how I do photography and what I need in the future, well then I might switch to a different system or buy as a second one and not look back in an angry way, because each system is right for me for the time I use it. Otherwise I would not have bought anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    Exactly right.

    One day I will test both Hasselblad and Phase One systems to figure out what is right for me. And guess what? I will not take any pictures of newspapers or circuit boards or color charts. I will make photos that I care about, and I will process those images like I care about them, and I will print them like it matters.

    Honestly, I bet that the differences between the two systems will mostly be about how useful I find the features for the way I like to work.

    Oh, and since I make pictures for primarily my own personal recreation, once I decide which system is best for me, I won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Just on the surface of thinking here as to what some issues could arise from this kind of testing , since I do these myself but movement between the multishots is always a possibility involved. Right now I am testing a 80mm LS lens against the 80mmD lens and I am on the third lens test since I am not getting repeatable results. Shooting the 80mm LS for instance wide open looks very nice and sharp in normal shooting but up against the 80mm D it failed twice out of three times to compare against it. Now how do i write this review but to say exactly this it looks good but still not sure. The real answer here is repeatable results to make a call. So maybe doing a test once is not enough and frankly myself I run tests on the same thing but different subject at least twice. Not saying he did not do it correctly but sometimes test results vary and one must be very sure of them.

    End of the day bottom line is what works for you may not work to the guy sitting next to you either. As a tester or reviewer i take this stance I shoot Phase I am happy with that decision but I look at everything out there like Hassy. Leaf, Sinar and leica and want them to succeed as well. It does US users no good at all ever to have one supplier, I try my damnest to leave any of my personal decisions out of those reviews.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome View Post
    The last time I saw this Mark Dubovoy, it was at Death Valley where he was working for P1 workshop with Mickael Reichmann : I suppose he should honestly tell he isn't unconnected with P1 before making a "fair" test.
    Jerome, thank you for pointing this out, I didn't know this. Very interesting.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    www.jecxz.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF



    Is that freaking DXO mark true (((( i'm so upset now !!! please tell it's not please any one !!
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by mAlKhamis View Post


    Is that freaking DXO mark true (((( i'm so upset now !!! please tell it's not please any one !!
    Does it matter? I don't have Nikon or Phase One, i will never look at Nikon at all and P1 maybe i will think but not seriously, but at the end i am happy with Hasselblad, and if i have to choice in the beginning between P1 and Hassy i will go with Hassy.
    Also our local dealer for Hasselblad is top notch service, Phase One dealer here is disappered, even i don't know where his location and he never has any events or offers to show, Hasselblad dealers every year has something to show and even he accepted to do traded-in of my H3DII for H4D in good way of payment, couldn't be happier and i wish if Phase One local dealer do something similar as i know how strong and powerful Phase One is[and you people show that no doubt].

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Raw data which does not count for ANY raw converter which for Hassy and Phase is known to improve on all levels of file.

    Case in point go read the P40+ which I can tell you right now is EXACTLY like the P65+ . Jack and I shoot side by side more times than i can count and our files are identical except for one thing he has 20 more mpx on me. But the DR is identical and same with low light and whatever they test is dead wrong. They rate my P40+ below the 65+. What they do NOT take into account at all is C1 which fine tunes all the Phase backs just like Phocus does with Hassy files. So yes this numbers may mean something up front but on the back end they mean very little to the shooter. To the arm chair pixel peeper guru they use these numbers for argument sake which means **** in the field. There I said it . Now ask me how I really feel and it would not be fit to print.

    Bottom line either you are a photographer or your a scientist and only one of them creates art.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I shot this image with one thought in my mind. Vodka Martini

    It's early I will start with a Bloody Mary

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Folks,

    this had to come

    Who really believes in DXO marks or what so ever? Alone if I compare H3D/50 with D3X that tells me everything. How did they measure that? I really question this result. I have used the D3X and the D3 for myself and I am using a H3D39 (very ancient compared to the H3D50) but even my old H3D39 produces far better results than any Nikon Pro DSLR (or any other DSLR), otherwise I would never have bought this stuff.

    There is a saying which I remember from university - "Who measures a lot measures a lot of garbage" - I cannot resist to think that these DXO lab results are just very bad garbage!

    Take the system, try it under your requirements and then decide.

    You can spend all your time in your life reading all these fancy test reports and never know what you really should go for

    Why bother? It does not help. Make your own picture and your own decision!

    Just my 5c ...

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Raw data which does not count for ANY raw converter which for Hassy and Phase is known to improve on all levels of file.

    Case in point go read the P40+ which I can tell you right now is EXACTLY like the P65+ . Jack and I shoot side by side more times than i can count and our files are identical except for one thing he has 20 more mpx on me. But the DR is identical and same with low light and whatever they test is dead wrong. They rate my P40+ below the 65+. What they do NOT take into account at all is C1 which fine tunes all the Phase backs just like Phocus does with Hassy files. So yes this numbers may mean something up front but on the back end they mean very little to the shooter. To the arm chair pixel peeper guru they use these numbers for argument sake which means **** in the field. There I said it . Now ask me how I really feel and it would not be fit to print.

    Bottom line either you are a photographer or your a scientist and only one of them creates art.
    Scientist serve the photographer by producing the tools, then the photographer use the tool to produce art

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    My conclusion is that the more testing I read, the more upset I become (no matter what I own), but when I go home and make photos, they are just as good as they always were. If I need more DR I will discover it in my shots, not on the DxO website.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Peter how did you get to 5 cents. Is it inflation. LOL

    Totally agree bud. Half this stuff is so meaningless
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Folks,

    this had to come

    Who really believes in DXO marks or what so ever?

    Take the system, try it under your requirements and then decide.

    You can spend all your time in your life reading all these fancy test reports and never know what you really should go for

    Why bother? It does not help. Make your own picture and your own decision!

    Just my 5c ...
    +1 I couldn't agree more

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    Scientist serve the photographer by producing the tools, then the photographer use the tool to produce art
    Very true but they better not cross the art line.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    My conclusion is that the more testing I read, the more upset I become (no matter what I own), but when I go home and make photos, they are just as good as they always were. If I need more DR I will discover it in my shots, not on the DxO website.
    Carsten the bottom line between anyone of the backs in any flavor is about at the most and i mean the most is about 3/4 of a stop. That is the difference between a P25 9 micron and a P65 6 micron and pretty much all the backs will fall in that same area. A P45 is maybe a half a stop for reference. These are things Jack and I picked up on just testing the backs in Phase.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I'm a junior scientist/photographer this is why these test usually grab my attention,, however i'm relieved to read this statement from DXO lab regarding MF test on the DXO overall scale !!

    "Related information
    Medium-format camera ranking with respect to DxOMark Sensor scale

    Professional portrait and landscape photographers often use medium-format cameras because of their superb performance under controlled lighting conditions. However, as these cameras are definitely not designed for so-called “action photography” scenarios, they generally do not perform well with respect to DxO Labs’ Low-Light ISO metric. Because of this inherent low-light limitation, medium-format cameras do not receive top marks on the overall DxOMark Sensor scale, even though they may show outstanding performance with respect to Color Depth or Dynamic Range.
    Read more"

    however now !! i'm on the edge of buying a totally new MF system, Hassy for it's legacy or P1 for the new performance !!
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bottom line either you are a photographer or your a scientist and only one of them creates art.
    Well said.

    Kind regards,
    Derek

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by mAlKhamis View Post
    I'm a junior scientist/photographer this is why these test usually grab my attention,, however i'm relieved to read this statement from DXO lab regarding MF test on the DXO overall scale !!

    "Related information
    Medium-format camera ranking with respect to DxOMark Sensor scale

    Professional portrait and landscape photographers often use medium-format cameras because of their superb performance under controlled lighting conditions. However, as these cameras are definitely not designed for so-called “action photography” scenarios, they generally do not perform well with respect to DxO Labs’ Low-Light ISO metric. Because of this inherent low-light limitation, medium-format cameras do not receive top marks on the overall DxOMark Sensor scale, even though they may show outstanding performance with respect to Color Depth or Dynamic Range.
    Read more"

    however now !! i'm on the edge of buying a totally new MF system, Hassy for it's legacy or P1 for the new performance !!
    You may find this worth reading . It really stands up to that only studio theory

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    I would like to know what will Phase One add more for me to shots like that?!!!



    A crop with different editing a bit

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You may find this worth reading . It really stands up to that only studio theory

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379
    WoooW! Guy,,, that was a killer !!!! amazing review and work,,, i actually forgot about the camera !!! and just gazed at those amazing young models i definitly buy the P40+ because of them

    thank you so much i really appreciate, cheer!
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

  44. #44
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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by mAlKhamis View Post


    Is that freaking DXO mark true (((( i'm so upset now !!! please tell it's not please any one !!
    Yes it is. The Nikon D3X also farts rainbows and craps out golden eggs. It is also the only camera available that is capable of photographing unicorns.

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Yea the models my get you to the check out stand but don't buy because of them. LOL

    It just proves these cams can make it outside the the brackets they get labeled at. Now the Hassy 40 has nice high ISO 800 so again the bar keeps going up on these. Obviously the D3's out there will kick our butt at 3200 and above and that type of work maybe still the domain of DSLR's but we are certainly not in the camp of you need 64k watts of strobe power to do anything at all either. So things certainly are getting better and I push admittedly MF beyond what most folks may actually use it for also but if you have a one horse pony it better be able to do a lot of things asked of it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Now Guy, I have been hanging around these forums for a while, but what the heck is a "one horse pony"?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    It's early I will start with a Bloody Mary
    Carsten: consider this line. It clarifies Guy's horse and pony thingie.


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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Heck still have not made my Bloody Mary yet. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    I would like to know what will Phase One add more for me to shots like that?!!!
    A Rolex

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    Re: Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    A Rolex
    Hey, i have Rolex and another big brand name watches, but i keep that for another bright day!

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