Starting to play with some S2 files

[Guy Mancuso]

Hi Mark,

I tend to use LR3 as a sort of 'import it, catalogue it and see what I got' solution (I know it's a beta but I have been using it for months now and it seems very stable to me, I make backups of the originals and it gets more details out of the files than LR2 for most cameras). However, if I want to get that real MF hyper-real look, extracting the last drop of detail, then, C1 is best by far. It's not a free lunch though: it is more prone to show color moire and moire in fine architectural detail, it tends to oversharpen as Guy has noted and needs toning down a bit, and it can, even at lower than default sharpening, exaggerate noise in darker mid-tones. But what it DOES do is extract that jaw-dropping detail that an MF file with no AA filter has - and which you just never, ever see from a DSLR.

HTH,

Tim

ps I have had an issue with 'centrefold' on some files from my replacement S2 (the first one had a sensor fault and was replaced) and so the second one has gone back to be fixed. It wasn't by any means visible in all files - in fact it was somewhat rare - and is far less visible in C1. Has anyone else seen this? I hear it happens in Hassy files from time to time but I have no experience there...

Tim I had the S2 all week with us in the Salton Sea workshop and mostly let Terry have free rein with it and only shot it once but did not get a chance to play with any files this time but I have been wondering if the latest C1 is any better in regards to the S2 than when Jack and I ran our tests and yes you hit the nail on the head what we where seeing back than. Wondering if you seen any changes with the latest version.

 

[Terry]

Guy,
Happy to send you files.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Terry and I should have grabbed some before we left so i can see what differences or improvements made to the S2 files in general with regards to C1. FYI maybe letting the cat out of the bag but there is a firmware update coming that fixes the continuous numbering. Not sure on anything else but it was something mentioned to me.

Also of note the X1 never had a chance when Terry grabbed the S2. LOL
But Terry is working on that review this week.

 

[tashley]

Tim I had the S2 all week with us in the Salton Sea workshop and mostly let Terry have free rein with it and only shot it once but did not get a chance to play with any files this time but I have been wondering if the latest C1 is any better in regards to the S2 than when Jack and I ran our tests and yes you hit the nail on the head what we where seeing back than. Wondering if you seen any changes with the latest version.

It's very hard to tell for sure because I've deleted the old C1 and in fact I only installed the new one yesterday - I generally like to wait a week or two (especially after the screw ups with LR2 and M9 files, and with Aperture 3's memory leak) before switching to the latest versions of things!

But I do feel that the files have all the extra detail that one expects from C1 but so far, and this is on a very limited sample, without the artefacts that we saw previously. I could be wrong here though.

What I do know is that if you flick through a load of P45+ files in C1 5.2 and through a load of S2 files in LR3, you start thinking, ooh, I really prefer the Phase files, but if you then open the S2 files in C1 the playing field seems totally level except the noise in mid to high range is better on the S2 but the noise on the P45+ at ISO 50 is better than anything.

One small other thought is that setting the S2 files sharpening to the same defaults as P45+ and then boosting clarity a LOT (about +40) gives files that at ISO 80 on S2 and 100 on P45+ I simply cannot tell apart other than differences in opinion on colour!

 

[tjv]

To me the A900 shots, although admirable, look nowhere near as tonal and full as the S2 / MF shots. The highlight recovery set so high also really kills it for me. I think my eyes are set to "positive film" mode though, so I might be more receptive to contrast, deep blacks and white highlights, as opposed to a full range of detail that digital and colour neg offers.

Keep the examples coming though, I really appreciate seeing what the camera can do and you being so open with your learning process. I can take a lot of what you're talking about and apply it to my own D700 digi workflow.

 

[carstenw]

I am with tjv here. The A900 files look nice, Guy's shot looks nice too, with better detail and sharpness appearing to be there compared to the A900, but so far, the only shot with both full sky and shadow detail was the underexposed S2 shot. It would be interesting to see another, underexposed shot from the P40+, but I guess it is too late now, and anyway, I am sure it would be as good.

 

[ecsh]

To me the A900 shots, although admirable, look nowhere near as tonal and full as the S2 / MF shots. The highlight recovery set so high also really kills it for me. I think my eyes are set to "positive film" mode though, so I might be more receptive to contrast, deep blacks and white highlights, as opposed to a full range of detail that digital and colour neg offers.

Keep the examples coming though, I really appreciate seeing what the camera can do and you being so open with your learning process. I can take a lot of what you're talking about and apply it to my own D700 digi workflow.

Keep in mind its a $2600.00 camera against a $24,000.00 camera. To be even compared is very good.
Joe

 

[ustein]

I like the last. But Fill Light at 50 normally introduces artifacts. Check carefully.

 

[Jack]

This is the 1/1500 shot with both recovery and fill....notice how much better under control the highlights on the bottom of the sofa fabric are controlled.

Terry,

This is also good, but you've lost some of the contrast in the lower quarter tones compared to the last shot above it and this one looks a tad flat -- here I'd maybe go into real (not parametric) curves and tune this lower end...

 

[Terry]

None of these is anywhere near where I would leave them. I didn't want to get into lots of different changes to the files was just trying to show if there was information there that could be captured so I just slid the sliders.

Uwe - I don't usually ever go to 100 on recovery slider because it never seems right after other changes I make to the files.

I will work on the Sony and S2 file when I can. Getting ready for another trip. In the meantime if anyone wants both of those files, just send me a PM and I will send you a link.

 

[Mark Gowin]

...ps I have had an issue with 'centrefold' on some files from my replacement S2 (the first one had a sensor fault and was replaced) and so the second one has gone back to be fixed. It wasn't by any means visible in all files - in fact it was somewhat rare - and is far less visible in C1. Has anyone else seen this? I hear it happens in Hassy files from time to time but I have no experience there...

Tim, I have not noticed a centerfold issue or perhaps I have not hit upon the right set of circumstances to get it to show. Have you narrowed down the conditions in which the centerfold issue is visible? I would like to test mine for that problem.

Also, thank you for the input on LR3 and C1. It sounds like I need to do some controlled test photos and download the latest C1 demo to see what I am missing. Frankly, I have been pretty pleased with the detail in LR3 and the thought of gaining additional detail is enticing.

Mark

Mark

 

[dougpeterson]

Capture One 5.1 improved (undocumented/unadvertised) the behavior of the shadow-fill slider at very high values. I'd be very curious to see what difference the software processing alone has on the ability to recovery shadow detail in this tough scene while keeping natural color, meaningful/natural detail and avoiding banding or artifacts.

 

[tjv]

Of course. It's a totally crazy comparison when the price gap is that large but, still, it's interesting to see where that money goes - tonal range, dynamic range etc.

I'm totally convinced digital medium format would knock my socks off and be able to replace all my MF film kit. So far though the price point and, S2 aside, form factor would be a problem for me. My Mamiya 7ii is the only kit that truly fits the bill for me at the moment so I hope some day to afford an S2 like camera and get out of film all together...

As an aside, like the A900 results above, my D700 is getting there but isn't quite comparable in its output performance compared to how I use MF film, both in terms of resolution, tonal and dynamic range and latitude.

Can't wait to get hold of an S2 like system some day if these examples are anything to go by...

Keep in mind its a $2600.00 camera against a $24,000.00 camera. To be even compared is very good.
Joe

 

[tashley]

Tim, I have not noticed a centerfold issue or perhaps I have not hit upon the right set of circumstances to get it to show. Have you narrowed down the conditions in which the centerfold issue is visible? I would like to test mine for that problem.

Also, thank you for the input on LR3 and C1. It sounds like I need to do some controlled test photos and download the latest C1 demo to see what I am missing. Frankly, I have been pretty pleased with the detail in LR3 and the thought of gaining additional detail is enticing.

Mark

Mark

Mark, you will likely get a really pleasant shock when you open the same S2 file side by side in LR3 and C1 5.1... it is literally as if one shot did not quite nail the focus...

The centrefold issue was visible running down exactly the centre of the file and though usually invisible even with fairly extreme 'slider action' the very first frame I shot with the camera had it clearly visible, if subtly so, in the stormy sky of a landscape shot, just by opening it with defaults in LR3. In some other files it could be provoked by extensive adjustments. Leica acknowledged and offered to fix the issue immediately.

 

[Terry]

OK Tim,
Guy and Jack have been trying to convince me for a while that I'm crazy not to be using C1. I'm a bit of a LR junkie because I like my workflow. Are you taking your C1 files to PS? or someplace else to finish them up?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay just brought in a file from the past of a S2 file. Try this Presharpen 1 than lower amount to 60 than lower clarity -20 and the files look correct. I still have color artifacts but this does reduce it some, color still on the yellow side.

 

[tashley]

OK Tim,
Guy and Jack have been trying to convince me for a while that I'm crazy not to be using C1. I'm a bit of a LR junkie because I like my workflow. Are you taking your C1 files to PS? or someplace else to finish them up?

Hiya,

My method is roughly the same as Mr Reichmann's at LL I think. I import everything into LR because that's where I keep, rate and keyword stuff and where I generally print from. If I then have an S2 file that is a pick, I will do a Show In Finder>Copy>Paste Item to somewhere sensible>C1 Import. I will work the file up to its best there then export it as 16bit TIFF and re-import it to LR for local area work, cataloguing and printing.

This is not as long-winded as it sounds and it does have the advantage of a 'catalogue priority' workflow with a roundtrip for ultimate IQ where required. You can also soft proof it in C1 for your intended output as long as most of your development is done there.

The issue is mildly complicated by the fact that accurate colour profiles are not available at the moment unless you brew your own, and these brews are easier and cheaper to make for LR than C1 but can be made using Xrite products for either.

HTH and best regards,

t

 

[Terry]

Thanks Tim,
So, do you have a bunch of C1 sessions that you eventually trash?

 

[tashley]

Thanks Tim,
So, do you have a bunch of C1 sessions that you eventually trash?

Oh yes. I have made every normal human effort to master C1's file management (i.e. not that much because it sort of should be almost obvious!) and have failed. How many trash cans does an app need? Why, when you copy an entire folder and all sub folders to an external HD so you can move them from your travel laptop to your main computer do all the LCC profiles you have made go missing?

These and other questions remain mysterious to me. So I just delete it all.

;-)