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Thread: P65+ and 645DF arrive

  1. #51
    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    For now it's gone back - it's a long and mildly boring story but the short version is that on my third sensor defect I just gave up, despite the fact that I really really like the camera.

    While my third camera was being fixed I took the P45+ and Cambo out of semi-retirement for a trip I had intended to use the S2 on and, by the time I got back, I realised that this setup just works. It's fiddly and arcane, sure, but its also satisfying and has been very reliable. I had always intended to sell all the Phase gear when I got fully accustomed to the S2 (its no secret that I think the Phammy bodies are horrid) but in the end, I just got fed up with shuttling backwards and forwards with replacements and loaners. I can see myself returning to the S2 when its teething issues are sorted but for now I just ran out of patience, though I must say that Leica were brilliant throughout. Pity, but there it is!
    tim,
    very soon we can all try the pentax 645....looking forward to that, no regrets about the S2 though.
    peter

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    Red face Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    BUT I had all defaults applied for NR and sharpening since I haven't used the back enough yet to disagree with Phase about what those defaults should be!
    Hi Tim,

    I see! I am pretty sure those Capture One presets are not camera specific, i.e. not determined in particular for the P65+ as there are the same preset values for other cameras as well. At ISO50 and ISO100 I guess the P65+ will look fine even at luminance NR set to zero and color NR values somewhere between 12 and 20 (in Doug's ISO100 P65+ shot from the CI site I've just set the preset for my P45 at ISO50 which is lumNR-00 | colNR-12 and found the image to look really good).
    Honestly I am finding the NR settings (i.e. the presets) in Captue One really strange...

    need to shoot some tests, preferably on a brighter day with a faster shutter.
    yes, of course, it's also quite possible that it's just motion blur!

  3. #53
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    but any improvements to shutter lag and to shutter and mirror crash and slap are not sufficient to make them acceptable IMHO.
    Tim,

    Your personal dislikes on Phase bodies aside, if your DF body's AF speed is "not sufficiently different" than your AFD3's was, and if you have even similar mirror slap as before, then you've got another significant set of problems and plain bad luck again with a new kit...

    (Sidebar: I have confirmed, as has Guy and as have several other DF users, that shutter lag is significantly better than it was in the AFD3 and mirror slap is significantly better. But since we've discussed all this and shown samples in other threads, I won't bother 'hijacking' your thread to repeat it all again here.)

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  4. #54
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Hi Tim,

    I see! I am pretty sure those Capture One presets are not camera specific, i.e. not determined in particular for the P65+ as there are the same preset values for other cameras as well. At ISO50 and ISO100 I guess the P65+ will look fine even at luminance NR set to zero and color NR values somewhere between 12 and 20 (in Doug's ISO100 P65+ shot from the CI site I've just set the preset for my P45 at ISO50 which is lumNR-00 | colNR-12 and found the image to look really good).
    Honestly I am finding the NR settings (i.e. the presets) in Captue One really strange...

    yes, of course, it's also quite possible that it's just motion blur!
    Thanks Thomas - I'd thought that C1 applied different levels of these things to different backs, but will check it out... in any event I agree that the defaults it applies to 65+ files are too aggressive..

  5. #55
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Tim,

    Your personal dislikes on Phase bodies aside, if your DF body's AF speed is "not sufficiently different" than your AFD3's was, and if you have even similar mirror slap as before, then you've got another significant set of problems and plain bad luck again with a new kit...

    (Sidebar: I have confirmed, as has Guy and as have several other DF users, that shutter lag is significantly better than it was in the AFD3 and mirror slap is significantly better. But since we've discussed all this and shown samples in other threads, I won't bother 'hijacking' your thread to repeat it all again here.)

    Cheers,
    Hi Jack,

    That wasn't what I was saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Focus accuracy seems improved but any improvements to shutter lag and to shutter and mirror crash and slap are not sufficient to make them acceptable IMHO.


    In other words I think the AF is improved (and seems now to be as good as the S2) and I also think the mirror slap, shutter whip and lag are also improved but still not as good, clearly, as the S2, which is hugely better in these areas. I also said:

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    But the truth is that, annoying though the ergos and haptics are, the body largely does its job and is very flexibly and well designed in terms of features.
    and I do indeed think that a lot of the more 'grown up' features of the Phammy are better than the S2 - seeing exposure comp in the finder and having a hard switch for MUP are examples of things that I really appreciate.

    Did you see the Hartblei files I posted for you? I made a 23 x 31" print from it today (because I gave up trying to get accurate colour on the Apple 30" cinema display and got an Eizo for proofing and was trying to see if that was going to give me better results) and that Hartblei file looks really good... I remembered that you were in communication with another forum member about buying one and wanted to show what a good copy can do...

    Best

    Tim
    Last edited by tashley; 21st March 2010 at 16:08.

  6. #56
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    In other words I think the AF is improved (and seems now to be as good as the S2) and I also think the mirror slap, shutter whip and lag are also improved but still not as good, clearly, as the S2, which is hugely better in these areas.
    Tim,

    Okay, that clarifies somewhat. However, when I tested the S2, I felt mirror slap was about equal in both cameras -- and given the fact the DF's mirror is larger, I chalked one up in the Phase column here. So we disagree...

    Did you see the Hartblei files I posted for you? I made a 23 x 31" print from it today (because I gave up trying to get accurate colour on the Apple 30" cinema display and got an Eizo for proofing and was trying to see if that was going to give me better results) and that Hartblei file looks really good... I remembered that you were in communication with another forum member about buying one and wanted to show what a good copy can do...

    Best

    Tim
    Yes, and thanks for that -- I just returned home where I have a fast enough connection to download it quickly. I looked at the file and while yours is indeed one of the best copies I've seen, the edges remain a bit soft for my liking. There are no details to speak of in the upper left, but the bricks in the upper RH corner for example, are pretty mushy.

    IMO at this point in time, the old Mamiya 50 shift lens remains a better alternative if one needs perspective corrections in that focal range, but of course, it can't tilt. It's clear to me that I won't be satisfied until I get that Arca M-2
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  7. #57
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Tim,

    Okay, that clarifies somewhat. However, when I tested the S2, I felt mirror slap was about equal in both cameras -- and given the fact the DF's mirror is larger, I chalked one up in the Phase column here. So we disagree...



    Yes, and thanks for that -- I just returned home where I have a fast enough connection to download it quickly. I looked at the file and while yours is indeed one of the best copies I've seen, the edges remain a bit soft for my liking. There are no details to speak of in the upper left, but the bricks in the upper RH corner for example, are pretty mushy.

    IMO at this point in time, the old Mamiya 50 shift lens remains a better alternative if one needs perspective corrections in that focal range, but of course, it can't tilt. It's clear to me that I won't be satisfied until I get that Arca M-2
    I'm researching the new Hartblei cam at the moment, as well as the Sinar Artec - they both look really interesting! Does that Mamy shifter work well on the 65+? I must say my print, which is at approx the same as you'd see by looking at the file at 1:2 rather than 1:1, is really nice. I'll certainly use the Super Rotator for work where prints need not go larger than 30" wide but yes, for anything larger I'd have to find an alternative...

  8. #58
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Dear Tim

    i know we are picking your brain....CLEAN it sometimes seems. However, you slipped in a small nuclear weapon; you RETURNED the S2? Was it just frustration with the sample variations and sensor problems or are we looking at an M8 situation or worse?

    Has anyone else had the sensor problems? they tend to go in 'batches' that is, either the circuit bd or the silicon wafer gets contaminated; time for a major recall. Any idea what Leica is doing?

    I can't risk my Ireland trip with only the P65+ and ALPA as backup. Maybe I will stick with my current (to remain un-named) kit until Leica sorts this out.

    What about others? Guy/Jack, did you see any sensor problems (you didn't mention explicily, but many times they are condidtion specific; e.g. I had an issue with the P65+ in very hot sunny weather.

    Any comment would be appreciated

    regrads
    Victor

    PS Tim, glad the Hartblei is working out. I have a good example as well.

    On the Hartblei camera, I played with (well, actually BOUGHT) a Truewide, and I am frustrated with the vignetting and the slow shutter. Both seem to be design issues. I may ask Keith to mill out motre as it turns out the Leica Modular 800mm DOES have a big enough image circle

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    What about others? Guy/Jack, did you see any sensor problems (you didn't mention explicily,
    We did have a few issues, but we felt most were raw-converter specific, dealing either with lack of a good camera profile or other converter anomaly producing weird artifacts -- and FTR, we did mention them in our review, albeit peripherally...
    Jack
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    must have missed it. Thanks for the reply. as you can imagine things get real serious with the dinero involved here!

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    must have missed it. Thanks for the reply. as you can imagine things get real serious with the dinero involved here!
    Amen to that!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  12. #62
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Dear Tim

    i know we are picking your brain....CLEAN it sometimes seems. However, you slipped in a small nuclear weapon; you RETURNED the S2? Was it just frustration with the sample variations and sensor problems or are we looking at an M8 situation or worse?

    Has anyone else had the sensor problems? they tend to go in 'batches' that is, either the circuit bd or the silicon wafer gets contaminated; time for a major recall. Any idea what Leica is doing?

    I can't risk my Ireland trip with only the P65+ and ALPA as backup. Maybe I will stick with my current (to remain un-named) kit until Leica sorts this out.

    What about others? Guy/Jack, did you see any sensor problems (you didn't mention explicily, but many times they are condidtion specific; e.g. I had an issue with the P65+ in very hot sunny weather.

    Any comment would be appreciated

    regrads
    Victor

    PS Tim, glad the Hartblei is working out. I have a good example as well.

    On the Hartblei camera, I played with (well, actually BOUGHT) a Truewide, and I am frustrated with the vignetting and the slow shutter. Both seem to be design issues. I may ask Keith to mill out motre as it turns out the Leica Modular 800mm DOES have a big enough image circle
    Hi Victor,

    I really think I just got a bad run, and tend to be picky too. I haven't heard a single other report of sensor issues, even from those that are most doubtful of the S2, and for me it was just one too many Mayfair traffic jam on a 'switch out' run. The S2 team seem to me (and I have spent a lot of time talking with them) to be a LOT more responsive than the M guys. I never had an issue that wasn't agreed with immediately and replaced as fast as I wanted but I did just decide to go with that good ol' Phase system that I don't enjoy using but which does deliver reliably in general. I am fairly sure that when the water has settled I will be back to the S system...

    So you bought the Hartblei lens rather than the camera?

    As for your trip... I would hire the S2 as you planned. Using it fully is such a valuable reference point and I had very few files from it that couldn't have been invisibly mended given a little time and effort. It truly is a lovely camera but it is a Bristol rather than a Mercedes...
    Last edited by tashley; 22nd March 2010 at 15:58.

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Hi Victor,

    I became concerned after reading about Tim's unfortunate run with the S2. As a result, I have gone back through my S2 photos to date and have not been able to detect any of the sensor issues Tim ran into. Believe me, I am looking close now and will be for a while.

    I agree with Tim, you should definitely plan to go ahead with your idea to take the S2 to Ireland. It will be an excellent way for you to get to know the camera in real world conditions.

    Mark

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    "....but it is a Bristol rather than a Mercedes... "

    WRONG ANSWER....
    i have driven Mercedes since 1973!

    Victor

    PS What the hell is a Bristol?

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Hard to believe that Tim had trouble with the S2 as he's generally so lucky with his camera gear. Tim, I hope you take this in the good natured way it's intended but if I owned a camera company I think I'd buy you one of my competitor's kits You have my sincere condolences for all the grief you've gone through with gear. The good news is that Leica seems to have done the right thing by you in taking the kit back. I sure hope they get whatever the issue is sorted out. I just sent my DMR in for repair (second time this year) and they were very nice about covering the cost under warranty even though the earlier repair was unrelated. In my experience they have excellent customer service, albeit a bit slower that one might hope for.

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    "....but it is a Bristol rather than a Mercedes... "

    WRONG ANSWER....
    i have driven Mercedes since 1973!

    Victor

    PS What the hell is a Bristol?
    http://www.bristolcars.co.uk/index2.htm

    LOL so when it breaks down it does not go to a repair shop it goes directly back to the OEM. Sounds like a Leica

    Couldn't resist
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    tim,
    unless the IQ (base iso) of the S2 is really poor, i had a sensor issue, too. for leica's sake i prefer to think the former rather than the latter.
    mirror slap: i have zero problems with it on the H3DII 50, neither on my old H1 body.
    peter


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hi Victor,

    I really think I just got a bad run, and tend to be picky too. I haven't heard a single other report of sensor issues, even from those that are most doubtful of the S2, and for me it was just one too many Mayfair traffic jam on a 'switch out' run. The S2 team seem to me (and I have spent a lot of time talking with them) to be a LOT more responsive than the M guys. I never had an issue that wasn't agreed with immediately and replaced as fast as I wanted but I did just decide to go with that good ol' Phase system that I don't enjoy using but which does deliver reliably in general. I am fairly sure that when the water has settled I will be back to the S system...

    So you bought the Hartblei lens rather than the camera?

    As for your trip... I would hire the S2 as you planned. Using it fully is such a valuable reference point and I had very few files from it that couldn't have been invisibly mended given a little time and effort. It truly is a lovely camera but it is a Bristol rather than a Mercedes...

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I'm researching the new Hartblei cam at the moment, as well as the Sinar Artec - they both look really interesting!
    are you going to replace your Cambo WRS with either the Hartblei or the arTec? If so... why?
    AFAIK the Hartblei is limited WRT shift... basically shift is only provided with dedicated shift lenses (Hartblei/Canon TS) and I cannot imagine that corner sharpness will be great at large movements with your P65+. But maybe I'm wrong. Too, the image circles of the lenses in question are limited... I think for a P65+ those high rez lenses with really large image circles make sense (i.e. the upcoming "Super Digitar" 43mm + 28mm and the Digaron-W lenses).
    With an arTec, of course, you could use all those lenses (resp. the Rodenstocks). The arTec is a great camera IMO. But it's not primarily designed for stitching more than 2 captures (though, of course, it's possible if you use movements on both the lens and the rear).

    Interessting to read about your experiences with the S2. To be fair: one could face the same (or similar) trouble with all cameras/brands. However it shows how big the discrepancy between claims and reality is.

    As to your feelings about the Mamiya bodies... I've no idea if you need the 645 camera for jobs or if you use it for pesonal fine art work or whatever. But as you are apparently so demanding WRT the haptic feeling, built quality, ergonomics etc. I wonder if you have ever handled a Contax? If you need a fast and reliable AF even in demanding lighting conditions the Contax is most likely not a good choice. But it is so nice and easy to handle, it has a really nice vertical grip, a waist level finder, you can exchange the screens fast and easy... and, of course, the lenses are still really good.
    At least it's (still) worth a look...

  19. #69
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    are you going to replace your Cambo WRS with either the Hartblei or the arTec? If so... why?
    AFAIK the Hartblei is limited WRT shift... basically shift is only provided with dedicated shift lenses (Hartblei/Canon TS) and I cannot imagine that corner sharpness will be great at large movements with your P65+. But maybe I'm wrong. Too, the image circles of the lenses in question are limited... I think for a P65+ those high rez lenses with really large image circles make sense (i.e. the upcoming "Super Digitar" 43mm + 28mm and the Digaron-W lenses).
    With an arTec, of course, you could use all those lenses (resp. the Rodenstocks). The arTec is a great camera IMO. But it's not primarily designed for stitching more than 2 captures (though, of course, it's possible if you use movements on both the lens and the rear).

    Interessting to read about your experiences with the S2. To be fair: one could face the same (or similar) trouble with all cameras/brands. However it shows how big the discrepancy between claims and reality is.

    As to your feelings about the Mamiya bodies... I've no idea if you need the 645 camera for jobs or if you use it for pesonal fine art work or whatever. But as you are apparently so demanding WRT the haptic feeling, built quality, ergonomics etc. I wonder if you have ever handled a Contax? If you need a fast and reliable AF even in demanding lighting conditions the Contax is most likely not a good choice. But it is so nice and easy to handle, it has a really nice vertical grip, a waist level finder, you can exchange the screens fast and easy... and, of course, the lenses are still really good.
    At least it's (still) worth a look...
    Hi Thomas,

    I would certainly try the Hatblei cam out first. Mr Reichmann at Lula was smitten with it using the 24TS from Canon but that was on a P40+ I think - however he seems to be hinting that these lenses were designed to cover a much larger image circle than you might imagine, and that there could be good reasons for that.

    The key issue with the Hartblei and the Sinar is that you can focus the damned things without having to swap the back out for a GG. For shift, this is never a problem with the Cambo because I use a 35MM and F16 so everything is in focus. But I would like to use some tilts and some longer focal lengths with them for some very odd and selective focus effects (such as a forest where all the floor is in focus but trunks are rising into OOF) and this requires really accurate focus.

    Regarding the S2, I'm not even p***d about it and Leica had such a good attitude. It's just that I bought it as an absolutely no hassle, elegant MF solution for certain uses and it turned out to be more of a hassle than I wanted to deal with and yes, similar levels of faults do seem to turn up with so many other brands - except for Phase, whose backs seem just to work.

    As for the Phammy body, well ideally I would swap everything out for the contax if it weren't for the fact that my SLR style MF needs encompass some studio work and so it has to be able to focus really well with modelling lights. The Phammy does that now, and I'll get over the things I don't like. I only mentioned any of this because someone asked my opinion, it's not a deal-breaker for me or I wouldn't have done it, having originally shot the new and old bodies side by side in early October last year and knowing roughly what I'd be getting into. It's like the info console on my partner's Merc SL - you can't have the speed and distance read out in miles but the temperatures in Celcius, as most Brits want. It's maddening but there's nothing you can do about it!

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Hi Tim,

    makes sense. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    yes, similar levels of faults do seem to turn up with so many other brands - except for Phase, whose backs seem just to work.
    uhh, unfortunately I can't attest this for my Phase backs. I have quite a long list of shortcomings. In particular a number of sensor lines with (altogether 4) different backs. Although they didn't show up under the conditions I normally shoot under they were visible at higher ISO in OOF areas of the image. So they never stopped me from shooting but it's certainly something you won't live with when using such "high end" gear.
    Other than sensor issues I did not have any issues... they just work. I had 2 or 3 sync errors using the tech camera (most likely user error) and 2 funky captures right before the battery went down.
    With the Contax I have never had any trouble at all (although... some trouble when using recharchable batteries).

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Tim...

    Are we still talking about your POSH gear or your P.O.S. gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    ...you can't have the speed and distance read out in miles but the temperatures in Celcius, as most Brits want. It's maddening but there's nothing you can do about it!
    ...Good Lord... and in energy, is it BTU or KWJ?

    No rush with those images... just whenever you get off replying. I'm glad there are all good chaps with good humours ... luckily, we are all firing blanks!

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    http://www.bristolcars.co.uk/index2.htm

    LOL so when it breaks down it does not go to a repair shop it goes directly back to the OEM. Sounds like a Leica

    Couldn't resist
    I think you are right! Maybe same owner.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by rhsu View Post
    Tim...

    Are we still talking about your POSH gear or your P.O.S. gear?



    ...Good Lord... and in energy, is it BTU or KWJ?

    No rush with those images... just whenever you get off replying. I'm glad there are all good chaps with good humours ... luckily, we are all firing blanks!
    BRITISH thermal units! As for POSH, well, with me it's more Point and Shoot and yes they are mostly blanks!

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    BRITISH thermal units! As for POSH, well, with me it's more Point and Shoot and yes they are mostly blanks!
    you guys aren't mad... the rest of the metric world are still selling their eggs by the dozen! - go work that out!

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    A CF may really introduce "lens cast" and this one goes from blue to yellow. And if it is strong there is literally no way to correct it
    for the sake of good order a correction here (after some chat with "EbsenHR").

    1.) a CF may introduce "lens cast" (going from blue to yellow)
    2.) the current version of C1's LCC will level out the color shift
    (my last shot with CF was a year ago and that was C1 V4 something...)

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Jack, I did this one for you since the chances of your physically getting to test my copy of the Hartblei are probably limited!

    The frame was shot using 10mm of rise at ISO 50, F16 and 1/100th with focus made manually wide open on the semi circular hoarding in the mid-ground. C1 defaults were applied other than WB and the correct settings in the Lens Correction Tab for the shot, with CA, PF, Distortion and Sharpness falloff selected. This effectively interpolates the file to different cropped dimensions of 9068 by 6769. Both the small version posted here and the large one linked to are in Adobe RGB and the large one is FULL sized and 100% quality JPEG so it is 41mb but it really is worth a look.

    This Hartblei is a gem. The results are not perfect but they are very impressive given what it cost me and how well my other glass is doing - and when it's not playing it straight as a simple rise/fall lens, its swings and tilts give creamy, dreamy effects. I love it. Every boy needs a good copy of this one in their kit bag!

    Here's a small version:



    Here's the link to the large version:
    http://files.me.com/tashley1/in12p5

    Best

    Tim
    Super shot and quality file (the full-size original). The left side looks very slightly less sharp than the right, but its marginal. Impressive

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

  27. #77
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Super shot and quality file (the full-size original). The left side looks very slightly less sharp than the right, but its marginal. Impressive

    Quentin
    Thank you Quentin - and how nice to see you here!

    This Hartblei thingie is a marvellous piece of 'bang for your buck'...

    Best

    Tim

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