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P65+ and 645DF arrive

thomas

New member
- any luminance boost (either way with curves, levels, exposure, vignetting tool or LCC based light falloff) will push the noise level by the respective value. So there is nothing special with tech/view cameras. But, of course, with large format lenses you always have to correct light falloff (even with center filter, but the correction is much less with CF)

- technically multi exposure is the best way to go

- if multi exposure is not possible (due to moving objects in the scene) a CF will do fine... but:

- the drawback with a CF is that the GG will be darker. But you could mount it first after the composition is adjusted. So this is minor.
Much more important is that a CF introduces lens cast. What is called "lens cast" in Capture One is actually sensor cast and goes from magenta to cyan. A CF may really introduce "lens cast" and this one goes from blue to yellow. And if it is strong there is literally no way to correct it (the blue shift possibly yes, but the yellow shift most likely not).
This goes for the Kodak sensor based P45 but I know that the same "lens cast" occurs with a Dalsa sensor based Sinar EV75 DB. So I'd guess it's the same with the P65+.

- in the image posted above there are a lot of things looking strange. First noise, okay.
Also the NR settings are really strange as the color NR smears the colors. It's simply much too strong. Besides, there are some bold reddish blotches on the left side. These blotches most likely are not washed out colors caused by the Col.NR.vAlso the Lumincance NR smears details too much (matter of taste probably).
Right now I have just my laptop at hand... but finally I'd also say the image is simply not sharp (at least not in the crop posted). So either the image is defocused or the lens is not accurate calibrated or the P65+ is much less forgiving at the edges than a P45. Actually based on Doug's samples with the 35XL posted on the CI site (comparision P65/45/40) I'd say the P65+ & 35XL should do much better (i.e. Doug's sample looks fine - not really better but in any case not worse than the 35XL on the P45+).
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
Congratulations on your new gear, Tim. You are joining an elite group possessed of impeccable taste and great savoir faire. (To say nothing of being swave and deboner.)
Enjoy!
Bill
 

gogopix

Subscriber
My long awaited trade in has finally happened and so in one fell swoop I have a whole new setup. First impressions are great - love the files, especially the Sensor Plus ones though I am slightly surprised by dark mid-tone and light shadow noise levels at ISO 100 (C1 current version, naturally).

The larger sensor shows up the weakness of my glass immediately - even the amazing 80D has slightly soggy corners wide open, the Mammy 28 needs to be stopped to F16 before it behaves anything like acceptably and the Hartblei, well, it continues to amaze but it has now met its match!

I'm really keen to hear any tips'n'tricks people might have. I have the latest FW so can set Custom Functions from the body, which is neat, but am sure there are a host of other useful things I could know...

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Tim
Tim
My trick was to hold on to my Contax 645 and lenses! :D No sweat; P65+ files are nice and sharp.
(oops, here comes the tactical nuclear weapon from Guy! :ROTFL: )

Victor
 

rhsu

New member
Ah, tech camera -- let me guess, you left shutter latency at zero? It is a known issue that if you use zero latency on a tech cam with the P40+/65+, noise increases. And the longer the back is left in that state, the worse the noise (heat) gets -- I suspect that's probably your issue. Set long latency and use the trigger cable you had for the P45+.

If that's not it, then something is definitely wrong. I run NR for ISO's 50 and 100 at 15/30/0 and get no noise at all. Try shooting a file using your DF body and the zoom or 80 at f11, both ISO 50 and 100, process using my NR settings above and report back.
Jack,

(Firstly - Thanks Tim for the test images.)

Are you therefore able to show per what Tim did of jpg snapshots of what you have mentioend above?

I initially kindly asked Tim to experiment and upload here images showing various settings ie "15/30/0" @ ISO 50 and 100 as you have instructed... HOPING to see any major differences between them.

I also kindly asked Tim because I discovered he has a WRS or "tech camera" - non 645AF DSLR, hoping to put aside problems with "some" lenses against certain chips etc etc. But then they all have domino effects and play a part to the resultant image.

If you have other tech camera and with HR lenses (ie arTec), that would be even better. :)

Perhaps my request is not so simple and cannot be achieved or perhaps showing such adverse images may be used against the purpose to which they were intended - ie "P65+ is a POS". Of course, Chatham House Rule would definitely need to be applied here.

I am more persuavaded in defecting to a P45+ at this stage but cautious with P65+. (remember the price difference is only $4k.)

Thanks...
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I could show it I guess, but frankly not very interested -- easy enough for anybody to do themselves. I think the important factor is there is not that problem with the P65+ on a tech camera if you use the normal latency setting.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Actually, on the Alpa, with copal/schneider i tried zero latency, and works, but sometimes not. I have used with the Truewide and Leica modular 800mm and the BIG Copal, and it works almost every time.

The Dalsa sensor I gues doesn't sleep :ROTFL:

Victor
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Not me. I'm pretty happy with the junk lenses.:D
Sorry Guy, but this time you are wrong (rare! :D ) The contax lenses serve me well, but some are just "ok". That's where the Phamyia started (hardly 'junk", but are getting better with each release, and withe Schneider designs are likely to be really great.
Leica, Zeiss, they all needed time. I am really impressed by the new er lenses Phase One, and the LS will be a big step.

The big deal is MF; we might quibble , but its at the top of IQ

best regards
Victor
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I know just busting them but you should really call Dave at CI and try them out on a body to see if you like the look from them. The D glass has it and I know some of the Zeiss glass for the Contax some are very good and some not so hot. Digital brings some issues to the older glass and with the 6 micron P65+ you may now start seeing that. It is a little tougher on glass than those 9 micron sensors. Don't forget too you have a 60 mpx back and right there alone just to get the resolution from the glass will be harder. You stepped up in back no question but with that you brought in some more issues with your glass. Darn things can really only do so much with it. So may have to reevaluate some of the lenses if they are making the grade for you. But also not everything has to be tack sharp either. Just like the M glass we do like some things softer looking and pick lenses just for that. The 110mm for instance many MF shooters love that lens.
Honestly both of us made a major step up in backs so now we are going to have to match what we just did with the glass as well. But do try some out and see how things feel. It really is not a big deal to switch your mount if you decided to take that direction. Seriously I am pretty darn happy with the D glass all kidding aside it does produce very well.
 

EsbenHR

Member
- any luminance boost (either way with curves, levels, exposure, vignetting tool or LCC based light falloff) will push the noise level by the respective value.
True.

So there is nothing special with tech/view cameras. But, of course, with large format lenses you always have to correct light falloff (even with center filter, but the correction is much less with CF)
- technically multi exposure is the best way to go
- if multi exposure is not possible (due to moving objects in the scene) a CF will do fine... but:
- the drawback with a CF is that the GG will be darker. But you could mount it first after the composition is adjusted. So this is minor.
This depends on what you want. I would think the freedom large format gives to create more diverse looks should be one of the advantages. It is just that is is rather easy to wield this freedom to push the camera to ridiculous extremes.

If you are doing large format I think it kind of follows that you are willing to be meticulous. If you have the time, a filter is a pretty good way to go. In the current case you could reduce the exposure of the sky with a graded filter and nothing prevents you from taking an LCC-shot (filter and all) and use it to correct for light falloff to boost the sky back to its original level and edit your heart away with color, curves and exposure tools.

Essentially you can capture a single-shot image with an arbitrary dynamic range this way.

Much more important is that a CF introduces lens cast. What is called "lens cast" in Capture One is actually sensor cast and goes from magenta to cyan. A CF may really introduce "lens cast" and this one goes from blue to yellow. And if it is strong there is literally no way to correct it (the blue shift possibly yes, but the yellow shift most likely not).
This goes for the Kodak sensor based P45 but I know that the same "lens cast" occurs with a Dalsa sensor based Sinar EV75 DB. So I'd guess it's the same with the P65+.
Interesting. A neutral non-polarizing filter (CF or not) is not supposed to change the color cast at all. Do you have any examples of that?

[ .. snip ..]

... but finally I'd also say the image is simply not sharp (at least not in the crop posted). So either the image is defocused or the lens is not accurate calibrated or the P65+ is much less forgiving at the edges than a P45.
I think this is just because the P65+ is pretty huge compared to everything else out there ;-) So the edges on the P65+ is much more challenging for the lens.
 

thomas

New member
If you are doing large format I think it kind of follows that you are willing to be meticulous.
I agree!

Interesting. A neutral non-polarizing filter (CF or not) is not supposed to change the color cast at all. Do you have any examples of that?
see attachments.
Both set to the WB of the actual capture. LCC1 without, LCC2 with CF.
The color shift doesn't occur all the time... my feeling is it depends on the angle of light hitting the lens.

I mostly shoot multiple exposure whith large movements. If possible I take the "correct" exposed capture for the center and the "overexposed" capture for the edges. But you can't use light falloff correction in C1 then. You have to process the LCC shots and use them as masks in Photoshop.
On the other hand: even with my P45 a correction of 1.5EV at the edges is still very acceptable if I start at base ISO and maybe slightly overexpose (0.5 EV or so... as the highlight recovery in C1 works quite well this is often a very good compromise).
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Tim, getting all this? :ROTFL:

Talk about highjacking a thread!

Anyway, I really appreciated your commentary on the S2 and now I am curious about your reaction to the Phase body and lenses. I have the P65+ but hold on to Contax. i KNOW I will need to supplement at some time. As I am loath to go back to hasselblad (and my favorite lenses work on C645 and will work on M645) I wonder whether it will be S2 (provided the Hassey V lens adapter shows up) or the Phase one.

I esp like that you do tests, but also comment on the top down 'feel', 'look' and the intangibles that make photography fun and special. If the image pops off the page, I am willing to shed a few megapixels! :)

best regards and good luck (and probably start another thread....)

Victor
 

EsbenHR

Member
Tim, getting all this? :ROTFL:
Talk about highjacking a thread!
Sorry, but I think Tim brought this on himself: posting an image in challenging light conditions using a large format camera he should expect nothing less :D

Besides, no animals were hurt during this production.
 

rhsu

New member
I could show it I guess, but frankly not very interested -- easy enough for anybody to do themselves. I think the important factor is there is not that problem with the P65+ on a tech camera if you use the normal latency setting.
No doubt sounded easy, only if I can get a hold of and play with the P65+. BUT unfortunately, like you, you cannot geta hold of an arTec to fondle with, I cannot get a hold of P65+ to do likewise (or at least loaning it out from the only ONE retailer/supplier here).

P1 just released something interesting on their site "optimising P65+" couple of days ago (which I accidently came across as a non-P1 user) - I think I got my answers there. Conclusion - stay clear of the "Nullarbor Desert".

http://xchange.phaseone.com/HOME/Content/Support/Article.aspx?articleid=1188&LanguageID=1

Thomas... always enjoyed your visual contributions - certainly saved many thousand words.

Tim, certainly P65+ is a P.O.S (sic - POSH) of a DB! :thumbs:

Enjoy...:)
 
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