P65+ and 645DF arrive

[markowich]

hi tim, are you keeping the S2 after all?
peter

My long awaited trade in has finally happened and so in one fell swoop I have a whole new setup. First impressions are great - love the files, especially the Sensor Plus ones though I am slightly surprised by dark mid-tone and light shadow noise levels at ISO 100 (C1 current version, naturally).

The larger sensor shows up the weakness of my glass immediately - even the amazing 80D has slightly soggy corners wide open, the Mammy 28 needs to be stopped to F16 before it behaves anything like acceptably and the Hartblei, well, it continues to amaze but it has now met its match!

I'm really keen to hear any tips'n'tricks people might have. I have the latest FW so can set Custom Functions from the body, which is neat, but am sure there are a host of other useful things I could know...

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Tim

 

[tashley]

- any luminance boost (either way with curves, levels, exposure, vignetting tool or LCC based light falloff) will push the noise level by the respective value. So there is nothing special with tech/view cameras. But, of course, with large format lenses you always have to correct light falloff (even with center filter, but the correction is much less with CF)

- technically multi exposure is the best way to go

- if multi exposure is not possible (due to moving objects in the scene) a CF will do fine... but:

- the drawback with a CF is that the GG will be darker. But you could mount it first after the composition is adjusted. So this is minor.
Much more important is that a CF introduces lens cast. What is called "lens cast" in Capture One is actually sensor cast and goes from magenta to cyan. A CF may really introduce "lens cast" and this one goes from blue to yellow. And if it is strong there is literally no way to correct it (the blue shift possibly yes, but the yellow shift most likely not).
This goes for the Kodak sensor based P45 but I know that the same "lens cast" occurs with a Dalsa sensor based Sinar EV75 DB. So I'd guess it's the same with the P65+.

- in the image posted above there are a lot of things looking strange. First noise, okay.
Also the NR settings are really strange as the color NR smears the colors. It's simply much too strong. Besides, there are some bold reddish blotches on the left side. These blotches most likely are not washed out colors caused by the Col.NR.vAlso the Lumincance NR smears details too much (matter of taste probably).
Right now I have just my laptop at hand... but finally I'd also say the image is simply not sharp (at least not in the crop posted). So either the image is defocused or the lens is not accurate calibrated or the P65+ is much less forgiving at the edges than a P45. Actually based on Doug's samples with the 35XL posted on the CI site (comparision P65/45/40) I'd say the P65+ & 35XL should do much better (i.e. Doug's sample looks fine - not really better but in any case not worse than the 35XL on the P45+).

Thomas, I found those observations very interesting and in particular I also though the grass looked messy in a way that it wouldn't on a P45+ BUT I had all defaults applied for NR and sharpening since I haven't used the back enough yet to disagree with Phase about what those defaults should be! As for the sharpness, I haven't given this rig another run yet since I have been playing with my Super Rotator (post to come) but I also agree and need to shoot some tests, preferably on a brighter day with a faster shutter.

 

[tashley]

Congratulations on your new gear, Tim. You are joining an elite group possessed of impeccable taste and great savoir faire. (To say nothing of being swave and deboner.)
Enjoy!
Bill

Thanks Bill, I am enjoying it so far though it always disturbing to reach a plateau on the learning curve and just as you are about to breathe, take off again vertically!

 

[Bob]

Probably one of the good reasons for new gear!
-bob

 

[tashley]

Jack,

(Firstly - Thanks Tim for the test images.)

Are you therefore able to show per what Tim did of jpg snapshots of what you have mentioend above?

I initially kindly asked Tim to experiment and upload here images showing various settings ie "15/30/0" @ ISO 50 and 100 as you have instructed... HOPING to see any major differences between them.

I also kindly asked Tim because I discovered he has a WRS or "tech camera" - non 645AF DSLR, hoping to put aside problems with "some" lenses against certain chips etc etc. But then they all have domino effects and play a part to the resultant image.

If you have other tech camera and with HR lenses (ie arTec), that would be even better.

Perhaps my request is not so simple and cannot be achieved or perhaps showing such adverse images may be used against the purpose to which they were intended - ie "P65+ is a POS". Of course, Chatham House Rule would definitely need to be applied here.

I am more persuavaded in defecting to a P45+ at this stage but cautious with P65+. (remember the price difference is only $4k.)

Thanks...

When I have time I'll try to do some different iterations for you but I'd rather start off with a good quality file first, so I'll shoot one on the Cmabo setup and post variations on NR.

As for the upgrade, go for the 65+ because for 4 grand more I am pretty sure you'll get better resale value out of it sicne it is likely to be a current model for longer than the P45+ I would have thought...

 

[tashley]

Tim, getting all this? :ROTFL:

Talk about highjacking a thread!

Anyway, I really appreciated your commentary on the S2 and now I am curious about your reaction to the Phase body and lenses. I have the P65+ but hold on to Contax. i KNOW I will need to supplement at some time. As I am loath to go back to hasselblad (and my favorite lenses work on C645 and will work on M645) I wonder whether it will be S2 (provided the Hassey V lens adapter shows up) or the Phase one.

I esp like that you do tests, but also comment on the top down 'feel', 'look' and the intangibles that make photography fun and special. If the image pops off the page, I am willing to shed a few megapixels!

best regards and good luck (and probably start another thread....)

Victor

Thanks Victor! It's always interesting and usually fun to do this stuff and share it because there are so many variables that many heads are better than one!

As for the Phase body, I dislike the new one almost as much as the old one. Focus accuracy seems improved but any improvements to shutter lag and to shutter and mirror crash and slap are not sufficient to make them acceptable IMHO. My new body also does not respond to the second press of a MUP exposure, about 50% of the time, requiring the battery to be removed before the mirror will come back down or the shutter fire. This is really, really annoying, not sure if it's a fault or a FW glitch or if I am somehow doing something wrong. But the truth is that, annoying though the ergos and haptics are, the body largely does its job and is very flexibly and well designed in terms of features.

I don't have enough D glass to have an opinion, really. Not too keen on the 28D, the 80D is great but the P65+ shows up it's corners wide open. I will almost always use the back on the Cambo unless its a rare studio day or unless I want some fun with the Hartblei, which is the maddest, funnest lens I have ever owned!

But as we all know, what matters most is that you have a camera with you at all times, as was demonstrated to me yet again as I drove through Brighton this morning...

 

[tashley]

hi tim, are you keeping the S2 after all?
peter

For now it's gone back - it's a long and mildly boring story but the short version is that on my third sensor defect I just gave up, despite the fact that I really really like the camera.

While my third camera was being fixed I took the P45+ and Cambo out of semi-retirement for a trip I had intended to use the S2 on and, by the time I got back, I realised that this setup just works. It's fiddly and arcane, sure, but its also satisfying and has been very reliable. I had always intended to sell all the Phase gear when I got fully accustomed to the S2 (its no secret that I think the Phammy bodies are horrid) but in the end, I just got fed up with shuttling backwards and forwards with replacements and loaners. I can see myself returning to the S2 when its teething issues are sorted but for now I just ran out of patience, though I must say that Leica were brilliant throughout. Pity, but there it is!

 

[tashley]

Sorry, but I think Tim brought this on himself: posting an image in challenging light conditions using a large format camera he should expect nothing less

Besides, no animals were hurt during this production.

I think I might have kicked a cat out of the way...:angel:

 

[tashley]

I do want to test that Hartblei of yours since seeing is believing!

Jack, I did this one for you since the chances of your physically getting to test my copy of the Hartblei are probably limited!

The frame was shot using 10mm of rise at ISO 50, F16 and 1/100th with focus made manually wide open on the semi circular hoarding in the mid-ground. C1 defaults were applied other than WB and the correct settings in the Lens Correction Tab for the shot, with CA, PF, Distortion and Sharpness falloff selected. This effectively interpolates the file to different cropped dimensions of 9068 by 6769. Both the small version posted here and the large one linked to are in Adobe RGB and the large one is FULL sized and 100% quality JPEG so it is 41mb but it really is worth a look.

This Hartblei is a gem. The results are not perfect but they are very impressive given what it cost me and how well my other glass is doing - and when it's not playing it straight as a simple rise/fall lens, its swings and tilts give creamy, dreamy effects. I love it. Every boy needs a good copy of this one in their kit bag!

Here's a small version:

Here's the link to the large version:
http://files.me.com/tashley1/in12p5

Best

Tim

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Tim have to say how much I disagree about the DF body. But each his own. Sure if it could spit out gold tokens every time I press the shutter it would be awesome but I can shoot that better than any 35mm DSLR on the market and I do a lot of stuff that requires fast work and fast thinking , it has yet to let me down and I'm a pretty darn demanding shooter on gear. Honestly you need to go out and constantly shoot it instead of it being in the closet except for the occasional lube the gears shot. Now the S2 is gone i would expect you might. But I think the word horrid is really a unfair comment.

Okay back to painting the house for me

 

[markowich]

For now it's gone back - it's a long and mildly boring story but the short version is that on my third sensor defect I just gave up, despite the fact that I really really like the camera.

While my third camera was being fixed I took the P45+ and Cambo out of semi-retirement for a trip I had intended to use the S2 on and, by the time I got back, I realised that this setup just works. It's fiddly and arcane, sure, but its also satisfying and has been very reliable. I had always intended to sell all the Phase gear when I got fully accustomed to the S2 (its no secret that I think the Phammy bodies are horrid) but in the end, I just got fed up with shuttling backwards and forwards with replacements and loaners. I can see myself returning to the S2 when its teething issues are sorted but for now I just ran out of patience, though I must say that Leica were brilliant throughout. Pity, but there it is!

tim,
very soon we can all try the pentax 645....looking forward to that, no regrets about the S2 though.
peter

 

[thomas]

BUT I had all defaults applied for NR and sharpening since I haven't used the back enough yet to disagree with Phase about what those defaults should be!

Hi Tim,

I see! I am pretty sure those Capture One presets are not camera specific, i.e. not determined in particular for the P65+ as there are the same preset values for other cameras as well. At ISO50 and ISO100 I guess the P65+ will look fine even at luminance NR set to zero and color NR values somewhere between 12 and 20 (in Doug's ISO100 P65+ shot from the CI site I've just set the preset for my P45 at ISO50 which is lumNR-00 | colNR-12 and found the image to look really good).
Honestly I am finding the NR settings (i.e. the presets) in Captue One really strange...

need to shoot some tests, preferably on a brighter day with a faster shutter.

yes, of course, it's also quite possible that it's just motion blur!

 

[Jack]

but any improvements to shutter lag and to shutter and mirror crash and slap are not sufficient to make them acceptable IMHO.

Tim,

Your personal dislikes on Phase bodies aside, if your DF body's AF speed is "not sufficiently different" than your AFD3's was, and if you have even similar mirror slap as before, then you've got another significant set of problems and plain bad luck again with a new kit...

(Sidebar: I have confirmed, as has Guy and as have several other DF users, that shutter lag is significantly better than it was in the AFD3 and mirror slap is significantly better. But since we've discussed all this and shown samples in other threads, I won't bother 'hijacking' your thread to repeat it all again here.)

Cheers,

 

[tashley]

Hi Tim,

I see! I am pretty sure those Capture One presets are not camera specific, i.e. not determined in particular for the P65+ as there are the same preset values for other cameras as well. At ISO50 and ISO100 I guess the P65+ will look fine even at luminance NR set to zero and color NR values somewhere between 12 and 20 (in Doug's ISO100 P65+ shot from the CI site I've just set the preset for my P45 at ISO50 which is lumNR-00 | colNR-12 and found the image to look really good).
Honestly I am finding the NR settings (i.e. the presets) in Captue One really strange...

yes, of course, it's also quite possible that it's just motion blur!

Thanks Thomas - I'd thought that C1 applied different levels of these things to different backs, but will check it out... in any event I agree that the defaults it applies to 65+ files are too aggressive..

 

[tashley]

Tim,

Your personal dislikes on Phase bodies aside, if your DF body's AF speed is "not sufficiently different" than your AFD3's was, and if you have even similar mirror slap as before, then you've got another significant set of problems and plain bad luck again with a new kit...

(Sidebar: I have confirmed, as has Guy and as have several other DF users, that shutter lag is significantly better than it was in the AFD3 and mirror slap is significantly better. But since we've discussed all this and shown samples in other threads, I won't bother 'hijacking' your thread to repeat it all again here.)

Cheers,

Hi Jack,

That wasn't what I was saying:

Focus accuracy seems improved but any improvements to shutter lag and to shutter and mirror crash and slap are not sufficient to make them acceptable IMHO.

In other words I think the AF is improved (and seems now to be as good as the S2) and I also think the mirror slap, shutter whip and lag are also improved but still not as good, clearly, as the S2, which is hugely better in these areas. I also said:

But the truth is that, annoying though the ergos and haptics are, the body largely does its job and is very flexibly and well designed in terms of features.

and I do indeed think that a lot of the more 'grown up' features of the Phammy are better than the S2 - seeing exposure comp in the finder and having a hard switch for MUP are examples of things that I really appreciate.

Did you see the Hartblei files I posted for you? I made a 23 x 31" print from it today (because I gave up trying to get accurate colour on the Apple 30" cinema display and got an Eizo for proofing and was trying to see if that was going to give me better results) and that Hartblei file looks really good... I remembered that you were in communication with another forum member about buying one and wanted to show what a good copy can do...

Best

Tim

 

[Jack]

In other words I think the AF is improved (and seems now to be as good as the S2) and I also think the mirror slap, shutter whip and lag are also improved but still not as good, clearly, as the S2, which is hugely better in these areas.

Tim,

Okay, that clarifies somewhat. However, when I tested the S2, I felt mirror slap was about equal in both cameras -- and given the fact the DF's mirror is larger, I chalked one up in the Phase column here. So we disagree...

Did you see the Hartblei files I posted for you? I made a 23 x 31" print from it today (because I gave up trying to get accurate colour on the Apple 30" cinema display and got an Eizo for proofing and was trying to see if that was going to give me better results) and that Hartblei file looks really good... I remembered that you were in communication with another forum member about buying one and wanted to show what a good copy can do...

Best

Tim

Yes, and thanks for that -- I just returned home where I have a fast enough connection to download it quickly. I looked at the file and while yours is indeed one of the best copies I've seen, the edges remain a bit soft for my liking. There are no details to speak of in the upper left, but the bricks in the upper RH corner for example, are pretty mushy.

IMO at this point in time, the old Mamiya 50 shift lens remains a better alternative if one needs perspective corrections in that focal range, but of course, it can't tilt. It's clear to me that I won't be satisfied until I get that Arca M-2 :ROTFL:

 

[tashley]

Tim,

Okay, that clarifies somewhat. However, when I tested the S2, I felt mirror slap was about equal in both cameras -- and given the fact the DF's mirror is larger, I chalked one up in the Phase column here. So we disagree...



Yes, and thanks for that -- I just returned home where I have a fast enough connection to download it quickly. I looked at the file and while yours is indeed one of the best copies I've seen, the edges remain a bit soft for my liking. There are no details to speak of in the upper left, but the bricks in the upper RH corner for example, are pretty mushy.

IMO at this point in time, the old Mamiya 50 shift lens remains a better alternative if one needs perspective corrections in that focal range, but of course, it can't tilt. It's clear to me that I won't be satisfied until I get that Arca M-2 :ROTFL:

I'm researching the new Hartblei cam at the moment, as well as the Sinar Artec - they both look really interesting! Does that Mamy shifter work well on the 65+? I must say my print, which is at approx the same as you'd see by looking at the file at 1:2 rather than 1:1, is really nice. I'll certainly use the Super Rotator for work where prints need not go larger than 30" wide but yes, for anything larger I'd have to find an alternative...

 

[gogopix]

Dear Tim

i know we are picking your brain....CLEAN it sometimes seems. However, you slipped in a small nuclear weapon; you RETURNED the S2? Was it just frustration with the sample variations and sensor problems or are we looking at an M8 situation or worse?

Has anyone else had the sensor problems? they tend to go in 'batches' that is, either the circuit bd or the silicon wafer gets contaminated; time for a major recall. Any idea what Leica is doing?

I can't risk my Ireland trip with only the P65+ and ALPA as backup. Maybe I will stick with my current (to remain un-named) kit until Leica sorts this out.

What about others? Guy/Jack, did you see any sensor problems (you didn't mention explicily, but many times they are condidtion specific; e.g. I had an issue with the P65+ in very hot sunny weather.

Any comment would be appreciated

regrads
Victor

PS Tim, glad the Hartblei is working out. I have a good example as well.

On the Hartblei camera, I played with (well, actually BOUGHT) a Truewide, and I am frustrated with the vignetting and the slow shutter. Both seem to be design issues. I may ask Keith to mill out motre as it turns out the Leica Modular 800mm DOES have a big enough image circle

 

[Jack]

What about others? Guy/Jack, did you see any sensor problems (you didn't mention explicily,

We did have a few issues, but we felt most were raw-converter specific, dealing either with lack of a good camera profile or other converter anomaly producing weird artifacts -- and FTR, we did mention them in our review, albeit peripherally...

 

[gogopix]

must have missed it. Thanks for the reply. as you can imagine things get real serious with the dinero involved here!