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Thread: P65+ and 645DF arrive

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    P65+ and 645DF arrive

    My long awaited trade in has finally happened and so in one fell swoop I have a whole new setup. First impressions are great - love the files, especially the Sensor Plus ones though I am slightly surprised by dark mid-tone and light shadow noise levels at ISO 100 (C1 current version, naturally).

    The larger sensor shows up the weakness of my glass immediately - even the amazing 80D has slightly soggy corners wide open, the Mammy 28 needs to be stopped to F16 before it behaves anything like acceptably and the Hartblei, well, it continues to amaze but it has now met its match!

    I'm really keen to hear any tips'n'tricks people might have. I have the latest FW so can set Custom Functions from the body, which is neat, but am sure there are a host of other useful things I could know...

    Thanks in advance for any ideas!

    Tim

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Congrats Tim!

    What do you have your default NR settings at? If you're seeing anything resembling objectionable noise in a properly exposed ISO 100 shot, something is amiss... I am looking into some very deep shadows at smooth painted surfaces in an ISO 100 shot right now and see NOTHING even resembling noise in the file.

    Re set-up tips:

    1) Fast AF is about 2x as fast as the accurate setting, but IMO not consistently accurate enough to relay on it at the more open apertures, so I use accurate and have been gleefully happy with focus accuracy --- like it's dead spot on 99% of the time, even in crappy light.

    2) I use the 3-spot focus pattern too as I find it more accurate than center.

    3) I leave the focus lock on the front button, but set it to lock and hold until released -- this works well for me in my landscapes where I want to focus on some specific point in the image and hold it there until I'm done shooting. However, be advised this will stay locked even if you power the camera off, until you press a second time to unlock it. You'll know it's locked because the green focus confirm dot in the VF stays lit.

    4) Rear button is AF lock, lock and hold until shutter is released, so it's off for at the next frame. You know this is locked because the brackets in the VF around the exposure setting stay lit.
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Thanks Jack, much appreciated!

    I have all settings on defaults (so that's 140, 1, 1 for sharpening and 25, 38, 0 for NR) but I have noticed that this noise is only visible without extreme squinting in shots where I used the Cambo, did an LCC and applied it. It is particularly visible with Light Falloff at 60% or more correction levels since these shadow areas 6/10ths of the way towards the edge from the centre and are thus getting a bit of a boost there.

    Get a few weird metering results too, but I'll get to grips with that: it seems that exposing a scene at F2.8 on AV and then stopping down a stop at a time can lead to the scene needing progressive negative compensation even when the camera is metering wide open with a full auto lens. Odd, might just have been an aberration or mildly shifting light levels... I'll have another go tomorrow.

    But I am sorry to say that for now at least that means no Hartblei for Jack :-(

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Ah, tech camera -- let me guess, you left shutter latency at zero? It is a known issue that if you use zero latency on a tech cam with the P40+/65+, noise increases. And the longer the back is left in that state, the worse the noise (heat) gets -- I suspect that's probably your issue. Set long latency and use the trigger cable you had for the P45+.

    If that's not it, then something is definitely wrong. I run NR for ISO's 50 and 100 at 15/30/0 and get no noise at all. Try shooting a file using your DF body and the zoom or 80 at f11, both ISO 50 and 100, process using my NR settings above and report back.

    Re 80 metering: There was a firmware update for the 80 a while back that addressed wide-open metering.

    PS: I do want to test that Hartblei of yours since seeing is believing!
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Ah, tech camera -- let me guess, you left shutter latency at zero? It is a known issue that if you use zero latency on a tech cam with the P40+/65+, noise increases. And the longer the back is left in that state, the worse the noise (heat) gets -- I suspect that's probably your issue. Set long latency and use the trigger cable you had for the P45+.

    If that's not it, then something is definitely wrong. I run NR for ISO's 50 and 100 at 15/30/0 and get no noise at all. Try shooting a file using your DF body and the zoom or 80 at f11, both ISO 50 and 100, process using my NR settings above and report back.

    Re 80 metering: There was a firmware update for the 80 a while back that addressed wide-open metering.

    PS: I do want to test that Hartblei of yours since seeing is believing!
    I just checked the latency Jack, it was set at 'normal' so I'd better run some more tests and maybe post something tomorrow though I do think it's the falloff corrections that are responsible and that's with the Schneider/Cambo. I'll follow your suggested parameters and see what happens.

    Thanks for the firmware tip: I will check that out asap.

    The Hartblei is not a miracle lens by absolute standards but relative to its price and ambition it's pretty cool. I'd use it for a big print, carefully and with a bit of work: it's not as 'cogent' as the Schneider/Cambo but its almost in that ballpark if used carefully... and I must say that a fully armed Hartblei, with movements set, on a DF with a cube under it is not a sight I would have understood two years back... scary but very cool!

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Tim,

    Foremost, congrats as well.

    Can you kindly test further on a tech-camera in the light of what Jack has highlighted regarding noise and latency. I believe you have a WRS - (a few cracking jokes about "holes" from the artec posting...)

    I am looking at upgrading to P45+ or P65+. The former for longer exposure. The latter merely due to better trade-in and cash balance ($4K difference).

    Jack has said something very interesting. (Or perhaps Jack can kindly wisen me with the delight of P65+ on tech-camera.) I like to see long exposure and at fast ISOs.

    On the lighter side, from where you are at, perhaps the cold weather should help subdue the heat on the P65+ let alone testing up in the Arctic.

    cheers

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Tim, stupid question, but are you by any chance cranking up exposure, brightness or curves to see better into the darkest corners? Or perhaps trying to view the file in LR instead of C1??
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Tim, stupid question, but are you by any chance cranking up exposure, brightness or curves to see better into the darkest corners? Or perhaps trying to view the file in LR instead of C1??
    Nope, everything was C1 5.1 and everything defaults other than the application of LCC from a separate file. As I say I think it's the LCC feature that is responsible, when using the default (100%) light falloff correction on top of the colour cast correction.

    This file shows it quite well: first is a small JPEG of the whole scene with ALL settings at C1 defaults except for the addition of the LCC corrections.



    Here's a 100% crop at 100% JPEG quality in Adobe RGB



    This is an ISO 100 shot on the Cambo with Schneider 35XL and though the sky is blown, the church and grass are about right I think. It was a test shot only, not intended to be of any merit!

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Note that applying an LCC which is boosting the shadows in the corner one stop is equivalent to raising the ISO in that area by one stop. Likewise a corner correction of 2 stops is equivalent to raising the ISO in that area by two stops.

    So an ISO100 shot with an LCC with two stops of corner light fall off correction is an effective ISO400 shot.

    Do you have the center filter for the 35XL?

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Also note that an area of flare (such as that in the upper left corner) can cause overall issues with any sensor/film especially regarding color and tonal smoothness in the shadows. I don't think that's the problem in this case, but anytime I see flare I start worrying (unless its a shot where the flare is a major aesthetic in which case the absolute image quality is probably not a huge concern).

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Does a P65 not need a LCC correction pretty much over the P45. Maybe said wrong needs one less than a P45+.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Does a P65 not need a LCC correction pretty much over the P45. Maybe said wrong needs one less than a P45+.
    A 65/40 shows less color cast than a 45+.

    A Schneider 35mm is one of the worst lenses when it comes to producing color cast, so even a 65/40 will show enough cast to require it.

    And you can also use the LCC to correct for fall-off (lens vignette). That's a fantastic tool, but like any tool it has it's advantages and disadvantages and one disadvantage is that correcting for fall off is effectively "pushing" the image. If you're at base ISO (50) and correcting 1 stop of fall off this way you're unlikely to see any noise at all - at the other end of the spectrum if you're at ISO200 and correcting for 3 stops of fall off you're likely to run into major shadow noise.

    It's just not intuitive to everyone that correcting X stops of fall off is the exact same as pushing that area of the image by X stops.

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Very interesting Doug, learned something new on the tech cams.

    I think I had that lens on my Horseman and maybe the reason I sold it was it was weird when shifting
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Yes, it appears that for the 35, you should be using the CF. This will require you add about 1-1/2 stops to your initial exposure, but then offsets that correction in the LCC to minimal and thus no noise boost.
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Thanks everyone, I guess this confirms my suspicions - and is nether very surprising nor very problematic. I think it hit me as something 'new' from the P45+ partly because the particular file I posted here had dark shadow on that one side in a way that I haven't often shot purely by coincidence, with the 45+ on the Cambo, and partly because obviously the larger sensor means more falloff to correct. I have never been a big fan of either vignetting or sharpness corrections because they both boost noise.

    So I guess I'll get the CF though I'd be grateful if Doug or Jack have a view on how other lenses in the same ballpark will behave in terms of colour shift and vigging (especially the Tilt/Shift 28 and 45). I am also looking into the Sinar and should be able to test one within a few weeks.

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Tim you may want to read this from Jack on the 40mm lens

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13238
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Tim you may want to read this from Jack on the 40mm lens

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13238
    Thanks Guy - actually it was that thread that first got me interested but Jack has mainly focussed (excuse the pun!) on the T/S side of things and not gone into how much LCC corrections were needed....

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Guy - actually it was that thread that first got me interested but Jack has mainly focussed (excuse the pun!) on the T/S side of things and not gone into how much LCC corrections were needed....
    I thought I mentioned in there that I did the LCC and it only altered the corner pixels by a 2 points of tint, nothing at the center, so I basically didn't bother using them for the image set...
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    So I guess I'll get the CF though I'd be grateful if Doug or Jack have a view on how other lenses in the same ballpark will behave in terms of colour shift and vigging (especially the Tilt/Shift 28 and 40). I am also looking into the Sinar and should be able to test one within a few weeks.
    I have no experience with the 28. However the Schneider 47 and Rodenstock 40 require very little correction in my experience until relatively strong movements are placed on it. YMMV

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I thought I mentioned in there that I did the LCC and it only altered the corner pixels by a 2 points of tint, nothing at the center, so I basically didn't bother using them for the image set...
    That's good to hear since I find LCCs rather a pain... I might have a Schneider 35XL on a Cambo board for sale soon!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I have no experience with the 28. However the Schneider 47 and Rodenstock 40 require very little correction in my experience until relatively strong movements are placed on it. YMMV
    Thanks Doug!

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    - any luminance boost (either way with curves, levels, exposure, vignetting tool or LCC based light falloff) will push the noise level by the respective value. So there is nothing special with tech/view cameras. But, of course, with large format lenses you always have to correct light falloff (even with center filter, but the correction is much less with CF)

    - technically multi exposure is the best way to go

    - if multi exposure is not possible (due to moving objects in the scene) a CF will do fine... but:

    - the drawback with a CF is that the GG will be darker. But you could mount it first after the composition is adjusted. So this is minor.
    Much more important is that a CF introduces lens cast. What is called "lens cast" in Capture One is actually sensor cast and goes from magenta to cyan. A CF may really introduce "lens cast" and this one goes from blue to yellow. And if it is strong there is literally no way to correct it (the blue shift possibly yes, but the yellow shift most likely not).
    This goes for the Kodak sensor based P45 but I know that the same "lens cast" occurs with a Dalsa sensor based Sinar EV75 DB. So I'd guess it's the same with the P65+.

    - in the image posted above there are a lot of things looking strange. First noise, okay.
    Also the NR settings are really strange as the color NR smears the colors. It's simply much too strong. Besides, there are some bold reddish blotches on the left side. These blotches most likely are not washed out colors caused by the Col.NR.vAlso the Lumincance NR smears details too much (matter of taste probably).
    Right now I have just my laptop at hand... but finally I'd also say the image is simply not sharp (at least not in the crop posted). So either the image is defocused or the lens is not accurate calibrated or the P65+ is much less forgiving at the edges than a P45. Actually based on Doug's samples with the 35XL posted on the CI site (comparision P65/45/40) I'd say the P65+ & 35XL should do much better (i.e. Doug's sample looks fine - not really better but in any case not worse than the 35XL on the P45+).

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Congratulations on your new gear, Tim. You are joining an elite group possessed of impeccable taste and great savoir faire. (To say nothing of being swave and deboner.)
    Enjoy!
    Bill

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    My long awaited trade in has finally happened and so in one fell swoop I have a whole new setup. First impressions are great - love the files, especially the Sensor Plus ones though I am slightly surprised by dark mid-tone and light shadow noise levels at ISO 100 (C1 current version, naturally).

    The larger sensor shows up the weakness of my glass immediately - even the amazing 80D has slightly soggy corners wide open, the Mammy 28 needs to be stopped to F16 before it behaves anything like acceptably and the Hartblei, well, it continues to amaze but it has now met its match!

    I'm really keen to hear any tips'n'tricks people might have. I have the latest FW so can set Custom Functions from the body, which is neat, but am sure there are a host of other useful things I could know...

    Thanks in advance for any ideas!

    Tim
    Tim
    My trick was to hold on to my Contax 645 and lenses! No sweat; P65+ files are nice and sharp.
    (oops, here comes the tactical nuclear weapon from Guy! )

    Victor

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Not me. I'm pretty happy with the junk lenses.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Ah, tech camera -- let me guess, you left shutter latency at zero? It is a known issue that if you use zero latency on a tech cam with the P40+/65+, noise increases. And the longer the back is left in that state, the worse the noise (heat) gets -- I suspect that's probably your issue. Set long latency and use the trigger cable you had for the P45+.

    If that's not it, then something is definitely wrong. I run NR for ISO's 50 and 100 at 15/30/0 and get no noise at all. Try shooting a file using your DF body and the zoom or 80 at f11, both ISO 50 and 100, process using my NR settings above and report back.
    Jack,

    (Firstly - Thanks Tim for the test images.)

    Are you therefore able to show per what Tim did of jpg snapshots of what you have mentioend above?

    I initially kindly asked Tim to experiment and upload here images showing various settings ie "15/30/0" @ ISO 50 and 100 as you have instructed... HOPING to see any major differences between them.

    I also kindly asked Tim because I discovered he has a WRS or "tech camera" - non 645AF DSLR, hoping to put aside problems with "some" lenses against certain chips etc etc. But then they all have domino effects and play a part to the resultant image.

    If you have other tech camera and with HR lenses (ie arTec), that would be even better.

    Perhaps my request is not so simple and cannot be achieved or perhaps showing such adverse images may be used against the purpose to which they were intended - ie "P65+ is a POS". Of course, Chatham House Rule would definitely need to be applied here.

    I am more persuavaded in defecting to a P45+ at this stage but cautious with P65+. (remember the price difference is only $4k.)

    Thanks...

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    I could show it I guess, but frankly not very interested -- easy enough for anybody to do themselves. I think the important factor is there is not that problem with the P65+ on a tech camera if you use the normal latency setting.
    Jack
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Actually, on the Alpa, with copal/schneider i tried zero latency, and works, but sometimes not. I have used with the Truewide and Leica modular 800mm and the BIG Copal, and it works almost every time.

    The Dalsa sensor I gues doesn't sleep

    Victor

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Not me. I'm pretty happy with the junk lenses.
    Sorry Guy, but this time you are wrong (rare! ) The contax lenses serve me well, but some are just "ok". That's where the Phamyia started (hardly 'junk", but are getting better with each release, and withe Schneider designs are likely to be really great.
    Leica, Zeiss, they all needed time. I am really impressed by the new er lenses Phase One, and the LS will be a big step.

    The big deal is MF; we might quibble , but its at the top of IQ

    best regards
    Victor

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    I know just busting them but you should really call Dave at CI and try them out on a body to see if you like the look from them. The D glass has it and I know some of the Zeiss glass for the Contax some are very good and some not so hot. Digital brings some issues to the older glass and with the 6 micron P65+ you may now start seeing that. It is a little tougher on glass than those 9 micron sensors. Don't forget too you have a 60 mpx back and right there alone just to get the resolution from the glass will be harder. You stepped up in back no question but with that you brought in some more issues with your glass. Darn things can really only do so much with it. So may have to reevaluate some of the lenses if they are making the grade for you. But also not everything has to be tack sharp either. Just like the M glass we do like some things softer looking and pick lenses just for that. The 110mm for instance many MF shooters love that lens.
    Honestly both of us made a major step up in backs so now we are going to have to match what we just did with the glass as well. But do try some out and see how things feel. It really is not a big deal to switch your mount if you decided to take that direction. Seriously I am pretty darn happy with the D glass all kidding aside it does produce very well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    everything is sharp with a one pixel sensor.
    -bob

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    White balance is a real bitch with 1-pixel sensors. On the other hand, there is no noise
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    White balance is a real bitch with 1-pixel sensors. On the other hand, there is no noise
    actually, WB is a piece of cake --- it's getting the color right that is a bitch
    Jack
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    I contest that! If the white balance is off, where do you click???
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    - any luminance boost (either way with curves, levels, exposure, vignetting tool or LCC based light falloff) will push the noise level by the respective value.
    True.

    So there is nothing special with tech/view cameras. But, of course, with large format lenses you always have to correct light falloff (even with center filter, but the correction is much less with CF)
    - technically multi exposure is the best way to go
    - if multi exposure is not possible (due to moving objects in the scene) a CF will do fine... but:
    - the drawback with a CF is that the GG will be darker. But you could mount it first after the composition is adjusted. So this is minor.
    This depends on what you want. I would think the freedom large format gives to create more diverse looks should be one of the advantages. It is just that is is rather easy to wield this freedom to push the camera to ridiculous extremes.

    If you are doing large format I think it kind of follows that you are willing to be meticulous. If you have the time, a filter is a pretty good way to go. In the current case you could reduce the exposure of the sky with a graded filter and nothing prevents you from taking an LCC-shot (filter and all) and use it to correct for light falloff to boost the sky back to its original level and edit your heart away with color, curves and exposure tools.

    Essentially you can capture a single-shot image with an arbitrary dynamic range this way.

    Much more important is that a CF introduces lens cast. What is called "lens cast" in Capture One is actually sensor cast and goes from magenta to cyan. A CF may really introduce "lens cast" and this one goes from blue to yellow. And if it is strong there is literally no way to correct it (the blue shift possibly yes, but the yellow shift most likely not).
    This goes for the Kodak sensor based P45 but I know that the same "lens cast" occurs with a Dalsa sensor based Sinar EV75 DB. So I'd guess it's the same with the P65+.
    Interesting. A neutral non-polarizing filter (CF or not) is not supposed to change the color cast at all. Do you have any examples of that?

    [ .. snip ..]

    ... but finally I'd also say the image is simply not sharp (at least not in the crop posted). So either the image is defocused or the lens is not accurate calibrated or the P65+ is much less forgiving at the edges than a P45.
    I think this is just because the P65+ is pretty huge compared to everything else out there ;-) So the edges on the P65+ is much more challenging for the lens.

  36. #36
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    lcc would be a thing of the past...

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by EsbenHR View Post
    If you are doing large format I think it kind of follows that you are willing to be meticulous.
    I agree!

    Interesting. A neutral non-polarizing filter (CF or not) is not supposed to change the color cast at all. Do you have any examples of that?
    see attachments.
    Both set to the WB of the actual capture. LCC1 without, LCC2 with CF.
    The color shift doesn't occur all the time... my feeling is it depends on the angle of light hitting the lens.

    I mostly shoot multiple exposure whith large movements. If possible I take the "correct" exposed capture for the center and the "overexposed" capture for the edges. But you can't use light falloff correction in C1 then. You have to process the LCC shots and use them as masks in Photoshop.
    On the other hand: even with my P45 a correction of 1.5EV at the edges is still very acceptable if I start at base ISO and maybe slightly overexpose (0.5 EV or so... as the highlight recovery in C1 works quite well this is often a very good compromise).

  38. #38
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Tim, getting all this?

    Talk about highjacking a thread!

    Anyway, I really appreciated your commentary on the S2 and now I am curious about your reaction to the Phase body and lenses. I have the P65+ but hold on to Contax. i KNOW I will need to supplement at some time. As I am loath to go back to hasselblad (and my favorite lenses work on C645 and will work on M645) I wonder whether it will be S2 (provided the Hassey V lens adapter shows up) or the Phase one.

    I esp like that you do tests, but also comment on the top down 'feel', 'look' and the intangibles that make photography fun and special. If the image pops off the page, I am willing to shed a few megapixels! :-)

    best regards and good luck (and probably start another thread....)

    Victor

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Tim, getting all this?
    Talk about highjacking a thread!
    Sorry, but I think Tim brought this on himself: posting an image in challenging light conditions using a large format camera he should expect nothing less

    Besides, no animals were hurt during this production.

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I could show it I guess, but frankly not very interested -- easy enough for anybody to do themselves. I think the important factor is there is not that problem with the P65+ on a tech camera if you use the normal latency setting.
    No doubt sounded easy, only if I can get a hold of and play with the P65+. BUT unfortunately, like you, you cannot geta hold of an arTec to fondle with, I cannot get a hold of P65+ to do likewise (or at least loaning it out from the only ONE retailer/supplier here).

    P1 just released something interesting on their site "optimising P65+" couple of days ago (which I accidently came across as a non-P1 user) - I think I got my answers there. Conclusion - stay clear of the "Nullarbor Desert".

    http://xchange.phaseone.com/HOME/Content/Support/Article.aspx?articleid=1188&LanguageID=1

    Thomas... always enjoyed your visual contributions - certainly saved many thousand words.

    Tim, certainly P65+ is a P.O.S (sic - POSH) of a DB!

    Enjoy...

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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    hi tim, are you keeping the S2 after all?
    peter

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    My long awaited trade in has finally happened and so in one fell swoop I have a whole new setup. First impressions are great - love the files, especially the Sensor Plus ones though I am slightly surprised by dark mid-tone and light shadow noise levels at ISO 100 (C1 current version, naturally).

    The larger sensor shows up the weakness of my glass immediately - even the amazing 80D has slightly soggy corners wide open, the Mammy 28 needs to be stopped to F16 before it behaves anything like acceptably and the Hartblei, well, it continues to amaze but it has now met its match!

    I'm really keen to hear any tips'n'tricks people might have. I have the latest FW so can set Custom Functions from the body, which is neat, but am sure there are a host of other useful things I could know...

    Thanks in advance for any ideas!

    Tim

  42. #42
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    - any luminance boost (either way with curves, levels, exposure, vignetting tool or LCC based light falloff) will push the noise level by the respective value. So there is nothing special with tech/view cameras. But, of course, with large format lenses you always have to correct light falloff (even with center filter, but the correction is much less with CF)

    - technically multi exposure is the best way to go

    - if multi exposure is not possible (due to moving objects in the scene) a CF will do fine... but:

    - the drawback with a CF is that the GG will be darker. But you could mount it first after the composition is adjusted. So this is minor.
    Much more important is that a CF introduces lens cast. What is called "lens cast" in Capture One is actually sensor cast and goes from magenta to cyan. A CF may really introduce "lens cast" and this one goes from blue to yellow. And if it is strong there is literally no way to correct it (the blue shift possibly yes, but the yellow shift most likely not).
    This goes for the Kodak sensor based P45 but I know that the same "lens cast" occurs with a Dalsa sensor based Sinar EV75 DB. So I'd guess it's the same with the P65+.

    - in the image posted above there are a lot of things looking strange. First noise, okay.
    Also the NR settings are really strange as the color NR smears the colors. It's simply much too strong. Besides, there are some bold reddish blotches on the left side. These blotches most likely are not washed out colors caused by the Col.NR.vAlso the Lumincance NR smears details too much (matter of taste probably).
    Right now I have just my laptop at hand... but finally I'd also say the image is simply not sharp (at least not in the crop posted). So either the image is defocused or the lens is not accurate calibrated or the P65+ is much less forgiving at the edges than a P45. Actually based on Doug's samples with the 35XL posted on the CI site (comparision P65/45/40) I'd say the P65+ & 35XL should do much better (i.e. Doug's sample looks fine - not really better but in any case not worse than the 35XL on the P45+).

    Thomas, I found those observations very interesting and in particular I also though the grass looked messy in a way that it wouldn't on a P45+ BUT I had all defaults applied for NR and sharpening since I haven't used the back enough yet to disagree with Phase about what those defaults should be! As for the sharpness, I haven't given this rig another run yet since I have been playing with my Super Rotator (post to come) but I also agree and need to shoot some tests, preferably on a brighter day with a faster shutter.

  43. #43
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Congratulations on your new gear, Tim. You are joining an elite group possessed of impeccable taste and great savoir faire. (To say nothing of being swave and deboner.)
    Enjoy!
    Bill
    Thanks Bill, I am enjoying it so far though it always disturbing to reach a plateau on the learning curve and just as you are about to breathe, take off again vertically!

  44. #44
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Probably one of the good reasons for new gear!
    -bob

  45. #45
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by rhsu View Post
    Jack,

    (Firstly - Thanks Tim for the test images.)

    Are you therefore able to show per what Tim did of jpg snapshots of what you have mentioend above?

    I initially kindly asked Tim to experiment and upload here images showing various settings ie "15/30/0" @ ISO 50 and 100 as you have instructed... HOPING to see any major differences between them.

    I also kindly asked Tim because I discovered he has a WRS or "tech camera" - non 645AF DSLR, hoping to put aside problems with "some" lenses against certain chips etc etc. But then they all have domino effects and play a part to the resultant image.

    If you have other tech camera and with HR lenses (ie arTec), that would be even better.

    Perhaps my request is not so simple and cannot be achieved or perhaps showing such adverse images may be used against the purpose to which they were intended - ie "P65+ is a POS". Of course, Chatham House Rule would definitely need to be applied here.

    I am more persuavaded in defecting to a P45+ at this stage but cautious with P65+. (remember the price difference is only $4k.)

    Thanks...
    When I have time I'll try to do some different iterations for you but I'd rather start off with a good quality file first, so I'll shoot one on the Cmabo setup and post variations on NR.

    As for the upgrade, go for the 65+ because for 4 grand more I am pretty sure you'll get better resale value out of it sicne it is likely to be a current model for longer than the P45+ I would have thought...

  46. #46
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Tim, getting all this?

    Talk about highjacking a thread!

    Anyway, I really appreciated your commentary on the S2 and now I am curious about your reaction to the Phase body and lenses. I have the P65+ but hold on to Contax. i KNOW I will need to supplement at some time. As I am loath to go back to hasselblad (and my favorite lenses work on C645 and will work on M645) I wonder whether it will be S2 (provided the Hassey V lens adapter shows up) or the Phase one.

    I esp like that you do tests, but also comment on the top down 'feel', 'look' and the intangibles that make photography fun and special. If the image pops off the page, I am willing to shed a few megapixels! :-)

    best regards and good luck (and probably start another thread....)

    Victor
    Thanks Victor! It's always interesting and usually fun to do this stuff and share it because there are so many variables that many heads are better than one!

    As for the Phase body, I dislike the new one almost as much as the old one. Focus accuracy seems improved but any improvements to shutter lag and to shutter and mirror crash and slap are not sufficient to make them acceptable IMHO. My new body also does not respond to the second press of a MUP exposure, about 50% of the time, requiring the battery to be removed before the mirror will come back down or the shutter fire. This is really, really annoying, not sure if it's a fault or a FW glitch or if I am somehow doing something wrong. But the truth is that, annoying though the ergos and haptics are, the body largely does its job and is very flexibly and well designed in terms of features.

    I don't have enough D glass to have an opinion, really. Not too keen on the 28D, the 80D is great but the P65+ shows up it's corners wide open. I will almost always use the back on the Cambo unless its a rare studio day or unless I want some fun with the Hartblei, which is the maddest, funnest lens I have ever owned!

    But as we all know, what matters most is that you have a camera with you at all times, as was demonstrated to me yet again as I drove through Brighton this morning...


    Last edited by tashley; 21st March 2010 at 08:42.

  47. #47
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    hi tim, are you keeping the S2 after all?
    peter
    For now it's gone back - it's a long and mildly boring story but the short version is that on my third sensor defect I just gave up, despite the fact that I really really like the camera.

    While my third camera was being fixed I took the P45+ and Cambo out of semi-retirement for a trip I had intended to use the S2 on and, by the time I got back, I realised that this setup just works. It's fiddly and arcane, sure, but its also satisfying and has been very reliable. I had always intended to sell all the Phase gear when I got fully accustomed to the S2 (its no secret that I think the Phammy bodies are horrid) but in the end, I just got fed up with shuttling backwards and forwards with replacements and loaners. I can see myself returning to the S2 when its teething issues are sorted but for now I just ran out of patience, though I must say that Leica were brilliant throughout. Pity, but there it is!

  48. #48
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by EsbenHR View Post
    Sorry, but I think Tim brought this on himself: posting an image in challenging light conditions using a large format camera he should expect nothing less

    Besides, no animals were hurt during this production.
    I think I might have kicked a cat out of the way...

  49. #49
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I do want to test that Hartblei of yours since seeing is believing!

    Jack, I did this one for you since the chances of your physically getting to test my copy of the Hartblei are probably limited!

    The frame was shot using 10mm of rise at ISO 50, F16 and 1/100th with focus made manually wide open on the semi circular hoarding in the mid-ground. C1 defaults were applied other than WB and the correct settings in the Lens Correction Tab for the shot, with CA, PF, Distortion and Sharpness falloff selected. This effectively interpolates the file to different cropped dimensions of 9068 by 6769. Both the small version posted here and the large one linked to are in Adobe RGB and the large one is FULL sized and 100% quality JPEG so it is 41mb but it really is worth a look.

    This Hartblei is a gem. The results are not perfect but they are very impressive given what it cost me and how well my other glass is doing - and when it's not playing it straight as a simple rise/fall lens, its swings and tilts give creamy, dreamy effects. I love it. Every boy needs a good copy of this one in their kit bag!

    Here's a small version:



    Here's the link to the large version:
    http://files.me.com/tashley1/in12p5

    Best

    Tim

  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P65+ and 645DF arrive

    Tim have to say how much I disagree about the DF body. But each his own. Sure if it could spit out gold tokens every time I press the shutter it would be awesome but I can shoot that better than any 35mm DSLR on the market and I do a lot of stuff that requires fast work and fast thinking , it has yet to let me down and I'm a pretty darn demanding shooter on gear. Honestly you need to go out and constantly shoot it instead of it being in the closet except for the occasional lube the gears shot. Now the S2 is gone i would expect you might. But I think the word horrid is really a unfair comment.

    Okay back to painting the house for me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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