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Thread: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    I guess most people will have seen MR's review of this combo at

    http://luminous-landscape.com/review...blei-cam.shtml

    and maybe have looked at the Hartblei website at

    http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm

    Now by my reckoning the Hatblei cam plus the Canon 24T/S will come in at about £7,186 including sales taxes, whereas a Sinar with 28 HR would be about £14,000 or about £1,200 less with the 35 HR. The Hartblei can be supplied to run with a Phase back battery, will allow the mounting of countless lenses (many of which won't have the image circle or resolution to keep up with a P65+ of course) and allows simultaneous T and S with the Canon, which apparently has a huge image circle, whereas it is my understanding that the sinar allows only T or S at any one time.

    The trouble with the LL review is that it was done using a P45+ which is obviously a slightly smaller sensor, and MR doesn't explicitly state what the image circle of the Canon is.

    SO does anyone have a view? It looks mighty tempting on a price basis, interesting to be able to use the 24TS on my 5DII as well, and to be able to use a 400MM tele on a P65+.

    Hmmm...

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    I have been using it with the 24 and the 17mm TS. In one word: awesome.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    I have been using it with the 24 and the 17mm TS. In one word: awesome.
    Aw c'mon you can't just drop something as juicy as that and run! Which back have you been using? I assume the first shot you posted is either the 17,, or the 24 shifted heavily?

    Please please please tell us more - this sounds so exciting!

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    whereas it is my understanding that the sinar allows only T or S at any one time.
    It was my understanding that the front standard on the Sinar rotates through 360 degrees, thereby allowing virtually any combination of tilt and swing with the one tilt movement axis. If I am wrong and it doesn't roate, then that is a significant shortcoming of the Sinar...

    Agree, I want to know which back, lenses and settings were used in the above images. I'd also like 100% crops form center, 2/3 out and corners...
    Jack
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    The first shot is with the 17mm full shifted up apperture fully opened. Unfortunately I only had a 16Mp back at my disposal. In the next weeks my own Hartbleicam will be arriving ( a production model with possibility to close the apperture on Canon lenses). At this moment it makes no sense to post crops because i could not yet close the lens down(I used a prototype wich did not yet had apperture control). As soon as my Cam arrives I will write a complete review.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    The first shot is with the 17mm full shifted up apperture fully opened. Unfortunately I only had a 16Mp back at my disposal. In the next weeks my own Hartbleicam will be arriving ( a production model with possibility to close the apperture on Canon lenses). At this moment it makes no sense to post crops because i could not yet close the lens down(I used a prototype wich did not yet had apperture control). As soon as my Cam arrives I will write a complete review.
    Thank you - I will really look forward to that!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It was my understanding that the front standard on the Sinar rotates through 360 degrees, thereby allowing virtually any combination of tilt and swing with the one tilt movement axis. If I am wrong and it doesn't roate, then that is a significant shortcoming of the Sinar...

    Agree, I want to know which back, lenses and settings were used in the above images. I'd also like 100% crops form center, 2/3 out and corners...
    You might be right Jack - I will try to check their site out. I had read the following from the Artec thread, which might well be wrong:

    Quote Originally Posted by rhsu View Post
    I know this is about arTec NOT RS.

    Holes - shouldn't be a bother. Although no light leakage but just like to have the front elements to be all sealed as much as possible. I have seen the older version DS with rubber caps. Tried using the end cap from a humble blk Bic pen - ended up putting the bars back on.

    Back to the arTec, the Cambo TS can do both at once. The arTec can only do one or the other. likewise with Alpa.

    My main interest with arTec is to see how effective is the GG from Minolta (?) Fresnel lens per DOF and focusing using HR lenses. As you know, I'm concerned with RS GG but only to be confirmed by you (?) that it is now shipped with Fresnel lens BUT yet has limitation - at least it is brighter than the older Cambo GG. Cambo supplier here has the OLD GG not the new fresnel. So the best and closest GG fresnel "relative" is my friend Sinar dealer - the arTec. If I can live with that, I can live with the new RS GG.

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    16MP back... Is that a 37mm x 37mm sensor?
    Jack
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    yep, I asked for a hasselblad H camera but in italy they accidently shipped yhe Mamiya version. The only back I had with me in mamiya fit was a 37/37mm back. But still, it continues to stay a great cam. As soon as possible i will be shooting multishot on a large sensor.

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It was my understanding that the front standard on the Sinar rotates through 360 degrees, thereby allowing virtually any combination of tilt and swing with the one tilt movement axis.
    yes, that's correct

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Tim, Peartree in London should be able to arrange a demo for you with your P65+

    Yair

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Tim,

    As I see it... I think these 2 cameras are very, very different.
    They have the integrated sliding back in common but other than that they are different.

    I see the Hartblei somehow like a mirrorless substituion for a 645 camera - but with a much wider choice of lenses.
    It's actually a body with a shutter and a finder. But when it comes to movements this is a matter of the lenses.
    Actually, there are only the Hartblei and the Canon (and Nikon?) T/S lenses that allow movments on this camera… AFAIK.

    The arTec is a full blown tech camera providing shift, tilt and swing (and stitching) with any large format lens (basically… in fact Sinar is only mounting Rodenstock lenses).
    Therefore it is much less limited in the use of conventional movements. The only limits that come to mind are the image circles of the lenses.

    So beside the cost factor I think the choice is:
    - Hartblei Cam to mount a lot of lenses; but just a limited set of lenses providing movements (i.e. more general use)
    - Sinar arTec for full movements; but limited to large format lenses (i.e. specialized use)
    As you can't use the large format lenses on your 5D2 with the arTec there would also be less system integration.
    Unless you buy another tech camera with DSLR mount… but than you should consider e.g. Arca Swiss (M2-MF & M2-DSLR).

    Horses for courses …

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Tim,

    As I see it... I think these 2 cameras are very, very different.
    They have the integrated sliding back in common but other than that they are different.

    I see the Hartblei somehow like a mirrorless substituion for a 645 camera - but with a much wider choice of lenses.
    It's actually a body with a shutter and a finder. But when it comes to movements this is a matter of the lenses.
    Actually, there are only the Hartblei and the Canon (and Nikon?) T/S lenses that allow movments on this camera… AFAIK.

    The arTec is a full blown tech camera providing shift, tilt and swing (and stitching) with any large format lens (basically… in fact Sinar is only mounting Rodenstock lenses).
    Therefore it is much less limited in the use of conventional movements. The only limits that come to mind are the image circles of the lenses.

    So beside the cost factor I think the choice is:
    - Hartblei Cam to mount a lot of lenses; but just a limited set of lenses providing movements (i.e. more general use)
    - Sinar arTec for full movements; but limited to large format lenses (i.e. specialized use)
    As you can't use the large format lenses on your 5D2 with the arTec there would also be less system integration.
    Unless you buy another tech camera with DSLR mount… but than you should consider e.g. Arca Swiss (M2-MF & M2-DSLR).

    Horses for courses …

    I sort of agree Thomas but the trouble is that there are so many different courses that one can't have a specific horse for each! I totally understand that these are different beasts but in fact their claimed fields of competence overlap fairly closely with the area that most interests me: the only problem is that with lenses as wide as 24mm, the selective focus benefits of tilts and swings are somewhat (but not totally) redundant so if I went for the Hartblei I'd probably have to swing (pardon the pun) for one of their longer focal length super rotators too, in the Canon fit.

    What bothers me about the Hartblei is the Mammy shutter, with its barn door behaviour, because key to my work with the Cambo gear I currently use is the leaf shutter of the Schneider, which means you can make high DOF/slow exposure work without worrying about shake.

    I will try both (as Yair has said, Peartree in London have the Hartblei) but I might just end up with the 72mm TS panel for the Cambo and stomach the fact that on those rare occasions when I need tilts and swings, I'll have to exchange the back for the GG. It's certainly going to be a much cheaper option than either of the others, and will allow me to keep my Schneider 35, of which I am quite fond! Another benefit of this is the ability to continue using the Cambo/Schneider setup in combination with an M9 as my favoured travel outfit: it covers all wide to short tele lengths with fantastic quality and works with a very light tripod!

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Hy Tim, the Hartblei shutter is completely free of vibration. it is the most silent behind the lens shutter i ever used. No vibration whatshowever, wich makes this camera a perfect base for a complete Repro(multishot)system( coming soon as i have heard from the Hartblei people)

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    I would love to get my hands on one to review for the forum -- just mention it in case anybody has a contact at Hartblei!
    Jack
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Jack

    Help may be on the way......;-)

    First of all thanks for this forum, I always enjoyed reading it (for _Some_ years now). But Now I think I can shed some info on several open questions in this thread.

    First vibrations: The Cam is made of massive plates of Aluminium, screwed together in several layers. The shutter is placed into a massive block of rubber further eliminating what would not be killed in the aluplates. And further the quite long structure of the Cam in shooting position does additional stabilizing against any waves of vibration that may try to get through.

    Second: versatility of lenses
    Beside the 35mm lenses that are usable there are of course about all medium Format lenses adaptable and as you may know there are several makers of shift and tilt adapters besides us (e.g.Mirex, Zörk) who do allow usage of Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax6/7 and plenty other lenses to be shifted AND tilted. BTW we are also working on a solution for that.
    And if someone wants it- we can easily adapt (needs only 4 holes to be drilled) e.g. Silvestri tubes and helicoids to the front.

    The system is completey open, we will never try to limit our customers needs by any brand limitations. If it exists we mount it - promised !

    Greetings from right now Kiev
    Stefan Steib - CEO Hartblei

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Wow, that's what I call service LOLOLOLOL!

    Welcome Stefan, great to have you here as a resource!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    And if someone wants it- we can easily adapt (needs only 4 holes to be drilled) e.g. Silvestri tubes and helicoids to the front.
    Hi Stefan,
    now that sounds interessting! Does that mean that those large format lenses can be shifted (and tilted) with the Silvestri tubes?
    Thanks!

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I will try both (as Yair has said, Peartree in London have the Hartblei) but I might just end up with the 72mm TS panel for the Cambo and stomach the fact that on those rare occasions when I need tilts and swings, I'll have to exchange the back for the GG.
    Hi Tim,
    I don't know why you are fearing the exchange of the back. I do it all the time.
    Of course you have to take care. Of course a sliding back would be nice. But it depends on how you are shooting. I compose with a little finder, or crop with the camera interface or simply with my hands. Then I set up the camera. Then I compose on the GG. Mount the back. Shoot. Only... really only when I want to make variations of the the same scene I wished I'd have a sliding back.
    Tomorrow my 70mm on a T/S lens panel will be shipped. I'll come back to you after playing around with it a little bit...

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Hey Stefan good to see you here and welcome to the forum. Guy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Tim,

    As I see it... I think these 2 cameras are very, very different.
    They have the integrated sliding back in common but other than that they are different.

    I see the Hartblei somehow like a mirrorless substituion for a 645 camera - but with a much wider choice of lenses.
    It's actually a body with a shutter and a finder. But when it comes to movements this is a matter of the lenses.
    Actually, there are only the Hartblei and the Canon (and Nikon?) T/S lenses that allow movments on this camera… AFAIK.

    The arTec is a full blown tech camera providing shift, tilt and swing (and stitching) with any large format lens (basically… in fact Sinar is only mounting Rodenstock lenses).
    Therefore it is much less limited in the use of conventional movements. The only limits that come to mind are the image circles of the lenses.

    So beside the cost factor I think the choice is:
    - Hartblei Cam to mount a lot of lenses; but just a limited set of lenses providing movements (i.e. more general use)
    - Sinar arTec for full movements; but limited to large format lenses (i.e. specialized use)
    As you can't use the large format lenses on your 5D2 with the arTec there would also be less system integration.
    Unless you buy another tech camera with DSLR mount… but than you should consider e.g. Arca Swiss (M2-MF & M2-DSLR).

    Horses for courses …
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Hi Tim,
    I don't know why you are fearing the exchange of the back. I do it all the time.
    Of course you have to take care. Of course a sliding back would be nice. But it depends on how you are shooting. I compose with a little finder, or crop with the camera interface or simply with my hands. Then I set up the camera. Then I compose on the GG. Mount the back. Shoot. Only... really only when I want to make variations of the the same scene I wished I'd have a sliding back.
    Tomorrow my 70mm on a T/S lens panel will be shipped. I'll come back to you after playing around with it a little bit...
    Hi Thomas,

    I have a sort of sixth sense for composition and exposure on my Cambo rig now and mostly get it right first time or at most with a trial shot or two so the need to swap out to GG is purely about extreme finesse of focus. I agree that in many environments, swapping out isn't a problem but glaciers, deserts, places like that do make me wince a bit: when you're already fumbling with cold fingers or sweat in your eyes, an LCC card, the chinese finger trap of aperture and shutter adjustments on a Cambo, etc, I just sometimes wish I had a slider! But the only one I tried was on the Silvestri flexcam and it was badly calibrated so focus was a guesstimate anyways.

    I am loving that Stefan is here: hopefully Guy and Jack will test a Hartblei and I'll get my hands on an Artec and a Hartblei within a day of each other.

    The truth is out there...

    ;-)

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I agree that in many environments, swapping out isn't a problem but glaciers, deserts, places like that do make me wince a bit: when you're already fumbling with cold fingers or sweat in your eyes, an LCC card, the chinese finger trap of aperture and shutter adjustments on a Cambo, etc, I just sometimes wish I had a slider! But the only one I tried was on the Silvestri flexcam and it was badly calibrated so focus was a guesstimate anyways.
    Hi Tim,
    understandable.
    How do you handle the mount change? Do you first mount the interface on the camera and then the back or do you first mount the back on the interface and then mount both on the camera? I always mount the back first on the interface (my camera case acts as a windbreak) and this way you can cover the sensor quite well. However I miss a cover for the interface. Something to protect the sensor when it's mounted on the interface. Could be a piece of plastic actually....
    As to the LCC... I've just bought this piece: http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/acce...ading-diffusor
    Very helpful accessory!
    By chance last friday a Sinar guy was in my home town and showed me the arTec. In particular the GG is simply a dream! Even with a wide angle (35HR) stopped down to f8 it's very comfortable to work with (and wide open it's really bright)!
    But there are also some things I am finding clearly more smart on the WRS. Small things... but worth to consider anyhow. E.g. the arTec has no scale for shift on the rear. The WRS lens hood is much more flexible and therefore much better suitable to be moved to the edges of the GG which is helpful in particular with a fresnel GG. The WRS has snap locks every 5mm of shift... the arTec does not. Bottom line... without doubt both have their strengths!
    As I shoot a lot of architecural stuff the arTec would be my camera actually. But... I've played around with the arTec, the Rm3d, the Techno, the WDS... and finally I think the WRS offers me a lot of benefits I don't want to miss. In fact this little piece of metal is very well thought out! A brighter GG and occasionally a sliding back would be fine though.

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Hi all.
    my custom made camera (accepts EF lenses and medium format back)
    hartblei price is SO HIGH... therefore I made it.
    It uses PRONTOR 3 professional shutter. so don't need re-cocking.

    please below link,

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=42099





    I have some samples with this cam and 17TS.
    17TS has 67.2mm image circle. so It can shift 3~4mm with my CF-39MS.
    I've confirmed 4mm shift well done.


    Now, this cam sent to customer, architecture photographer in europe.

    This cam price only US$3000. any mounts (V,H, M, contax..) can do it.

    I'm not camera maker, just a pro-photographer based in Seoul, KOREA.

    but my hobby is camera designing. so I enjoy it.

    my other designed cameras,

    nikon F mounts, very small camera.
    28PC nikkor
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=36322
    85mm F1.4 T carl zeiss for contax
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=40648

    technical camera 3shot panorama stitching using GX680 standard
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=42041
    Last edited by chiek; 29th March 2010 at 19:37.

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Hi Thomas

    TS-with the sylvestri Tubes -NO, but there is this new Cambo stuff - the WTS adapters for TS from 28 to 90mm lenses e.g. here :
    http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_p...Item21971.html
    as I said we will be able to adapt most of those accessories to our cam if someone wants that. But of course at a cost.

    So anyone will need to decide if these lenses are worth to him some grands extra.

    Especially when you will see that you don´t have to do Moiree shots with all of the 35mm TS lenses on the backs with HCam.

    Some other details: we can do the 4000th (and all short exposure times) of a second untethered, you can release the shutter with a radio remote release (we sport either Canon or Nikon plugs for all available accessories), the flash is triggered by a hotshoe as with any normal modern camera and our apertures with Canon lenses are set in 1/4 f stops electronically controlled.

    So we actually offer the comfort of a modern DSLR but without the mirrorslap and usage more like an oldfashioned viewcamera with interchangeable finders (you need to focus once with our Hartblei loupe mounted, then you will know what I mean).

    Greetings from Kiev
    Stefan

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    TS-with the sylvestri Tubes -NO, but there is this new Cambo stuff - the WTS adapters for TS from 28 to 90mm lenses
    Thanks, Stefan.
    But thoses lenses do not provide shift. Only tilt and swing. So for shift there are the Canon and Hartblei lenses or the Pentax 67 with the Zörk adapter (or similar). But I am anxious to see your own upcoming solution.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Hi Tim,
    understandable.
    How do you handle the mount change? Do you first mount the interface on the camera and then the back or do you first mount the back on the interface and then mount both on the camera? I always mount the back first on the interface (my camera case acts as a windbreak) and this way you can cover the sensor quite well. However I miss a cover for the interface. Something to protect the sensor when it's mounted on the interface. Could be a piece of plastic actually....
    As to the LCC... I've just bought this piece: http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/acce...ading-diffusor
    Very helpful accessory!
    By chance last friday a Sinar guy was in my home town and showed me the arTec. In particular the GG is simply a dream! Even with a wide angle (35HR) stopped down to f8 it's very comfortable to work with (and wide open it's really bright)!
    But there are also some things I am finding clearly more smart on the WRS. Small things... but worth to consider anyhow. E.g. the arTec has no scale for shift on the rear. The WRS lens hood is much more flexible and therefore much better suitable to be moved to the edges of the GG which is helpful in particular with a fresnel GG. The WRS has snap locks every 5mm of shift... the arTec does not. Bottom line... without doubt both have their strengths!
    As I shoot a lot of architecural stuff the arTec would be my camera actually. But... I've played around with the arTec, the Rm3d, the Techno, the WDS... and finally I think the WRS offers me a lot of benefits I don't want to miss. In fact this little piece of metal is very well thought out! A brighter GG and occasionally a sliding back would be fine though.
    That is really useful info, thank you! In particular if there are no rear markings for shift, how do you make records for LCC? I assume front markings. The news about the hood flexibility is interesting too.

    I love my WRS - it is small and light and dare I say it almost unobtrusive in the field because people tend to think you're surveying for a new drain or something!

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    Re: The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I love my WRS - it is small and light and dare I say it almost unobtrusive in the field because people tend to think you're surveying for a new drain or something!


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That is really useful info, thank you! In particular if there are no rear markings for shift, how do you make records for LCC? I assume front markings. The news about the hood flexibility is interesting too.
    Yes, the arTec provides the shift indication on the front... as vertical movements are made with the lens the scale is on the side of the lens.

    Basically... all these little details tell a lot about the underlying "philosophy" of the camera.

    The arTec is clearly designed to shoot accurately composed single shots (in contrast to stitching multiple captures). First, movements are splitted: lateral on the rear, rise/fall on the lens. Too, there are e.g. magnetic masks for the GG that crop the sensor plane. The GG and the loupe are more designed to provide a clear and bright view of the (sensor-) cropped image... they are not really designed to show the entire image circle of the lens (although even this is still working quite good). Consequently there is no need to know the movements for the LCC... you simply shoot it in the same scene with the same movements/settings (and with Sinar's mountable white shading diffusor that's really easy).

    The WRS is more designed to provide stitching (4 way movements of the back within the image circle). And, of course, designed to shoot handheld, too. Consequently the GG shows a larger part of the image circle. They do not provide magnetic masks for the WRS but an indication of the sensor planes and the amount of movements in millimeters on the GG. And a very flexible focussing hood (which was designed for the WDS, AFAIK). Downside of the flexible focussing hood is: you have to hold it with one hand (the hood of the arTec holds the center position and the distance to the GG).

    etc. ...

    Me I like to see the amount of shift on the rear of the camera (resp. on the GG). Not so much beause of the LCC thing. But it's easier for stitching. And it's easier to take the lens capabilities into account... for instance I know that 15mm shift with the 47XL is the critical limit regarding sharpness (17mm shift actually). So I want to see which part of the image is in that critical area. If there is something important in the scene, asking for good sharpness, I know that I have to move back a little bit. That's clear and easy with the WRS as it indicates the amount of shift on 2 sides of the body and on the GG. Too, if you set up the camera very high, standing on a step or the camera case, you still can see the shift indication without the need to walk around the camera (or to rotate it 180° on the tripod to see the front).

    Bottom line... IMO... the arTec is much better to compose single shots. The WRS is more multifunctional.

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