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Thread: H2 or Hy6???

  1. #1
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    H2 or Hy6???

    I have heard everything from the next HB, to "it's plastic and sags with long lenses" about the Hy6.

    I am looking for an alternate platform, for both camera and back. What I want is an opportunity to have HC lenses OR Rollei'Schneider. Can't have both.

    BUT, there is so much mis information and ok, you can rent, but not here on the Potomac.

    So, who has real experience (and of course I will find some way to try) but there is nothing like having forum friends push you down the RIGHT slippery slope

    so....??

    Victor

    PS: If you feel that a major league thumbs down will get you banned, just email me.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Did you really mean H2? Do you want to be excluded from using the 28mm lens and anything else Hasselblad decides to lock out in future?

    Which back are you looking at? That could decide it.

  3. #3
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    well with the HB 3II it is a closed system, so the back just goes there. You are right that it locks out future HCD II lenses (the "notched" ones)

    Based on my favourable reaction to your sample, I was thinking Hy6 Sinar with alternate Contax adapter.

    I though H2 based on cost and also that Sinar would not work on the H3.

    To buy into thee H3 isnt necessarily bad, it is just restrictive; you wind up in the Fuji, sorry, I mean HB camp forever.

    Maybe not such a bad camp!

    Graham, are you thinking that is where you will wind up?

    What about the H3. Again, some flaming -- "Oh its just more japanese canon-like lenses, platic, bulky and very techy but looks flat!

    Yes, those are almost quotes I have heard.

    and just so I get it out of my system, the more I look at the new Nikon stuff, and images, the less I like it. It just doesn't have staying power. Individually, looks good, occassionally great.. and then.. disappointment

    I don't want to drop 30,000 and feel that way about my next MF system.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Victor, I will end up with a Hy6 some day. I have the back and the lenses already, and the Hy6 is the only system out there which will let you use the WLF and rotate the back. This is how I would like to work. There are other nice things about the Hy6 too

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Thank you for your response. That is one major advantage of the Sinar, that it can be upgraded and used across platforms. It is a major difference from the HB H3D approach that locks one in, albeit to a fine, maybe the best system. for some.

    What startles me is the vehemence of some of the negatives; 'plastically' for Hy6 and 'flat, uninteresting glass' for the H3D. These can't be right. But then, I have seen " the AF on the Contax s_cks" and is merely slow (and sometimes AF on wrong thing!). No system is perfect.

    So I await other notions from peropl and will try to rent each (not having luck yet with either)

  6. #6
    thsinar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    I would really try to hold and handle a Sinar Hy6: I don't think you will have the feeling of "plasticity".

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post

    What startles me is the vehemence of some of the negatives; 'plastically' for Hy6 ....

    No system is perfect.

    So I await other notions from peropl and will try to rent each (not having luck yet with either)

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    ...

    To buy into thee H3 isnt necessarily bad, it is just restrictive; you wind up in the Fuji, sorry, I mean HB camp forever......

    What about the H3. Again, some flaming -- "Oh its just more japanese canon-like lenses, platic, bulky and very techy but looks flat!

    Yes, those are almost quotes I have heard...
    Victor - you might like to consider the Hasselblad CF back range - which you can buy a range of mounting plates to use with H or Mamiya(s) or Contax or View cameras or Fuji..etc etc..follow the link below and see dot point three in column two in tech specs..

    http://www.hasselblad.com/products/b...and-cf-ms.aspx

    Very funny about H lenses - ever tried them?

    Petey

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    David Klepacki should be able to help here, and I will post my impressions on the Hy6 in a few days. I share Graham's preference to work with WLF and rotating back... it's why I got into the RZ system (now gone in anticipation of working this way with Hy6). Another feature that appealed to me with the Hy6 was that metering was done in the body and not the finder (hope I have this right). This has always been a problem for me when shooting Contax with the WLF which only permits spot metering. Works fine in the studio with a light meter but not so good outdoors unless metering manually. As for plastic... get yours ready whichever way you decide to go

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Victor -

    My decision on this topic was made for me when I found a like-new H3D 39 at Kurland for $18k. I have the camera, back, 80mm and 28mm. A couple of more lenses are on the way, including a legacy V system 40. I'm in the process of selling most of my Canon gear. Of course I'll keep the Leicas.

    The advantages of the closed platform is wonderful end-to-end integration - this has a positive impact on IQ because proprietary features in the raw conversion software do a good job of color management and compensating for lens quirks. This also means that everything works as it should and controls are logical. Hasselblads are in wide use commercially so they are well-supported on forums like this and in the secondary market. My experience with a Hasselblad Imacon scanner suggests that the manufacturer's support is excellent. The system gives you access to literally tons of V system CZ glass (most of which probably has difficulty with the transition to digital), and an upgrade path. The Fuji glass, based on the two samples I have, is excellent.

    The disadvantages are obvious - you become a captive customer, both economically and in terms of the manufacturer's commitment to support the system.

    Here is an image shot yesterday in Central Park. It's a stitch of two frames shot with the 80 at ISO 200, 1/320 at f6.3, handheld. File dimensions are 7340 x 9200. Note that the files from this back are very "deep", tolerating intense manipulation, and requiring very high sharpening (my default on conversion is 300% r=1!). It's hard to convey what it's like working with these files at web resolution. The difference in sharpness between the background and foreground is probably a DOF issue - it gets very thin with this large sensor. The crops look slightly over-sharpened on the web but the file looks right when it's printed on 24x30 inch Harmon Gloss FB.

    Full image:
    Attachment 3376

    Crops:
    Attachment 3377


    Attachment 3378


    Attachment 3379

  10. #10
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Woody

    Thank you for your comments and for the images. even small jpgs do not lie; those are impressive. I am particularly impressed by something I find important; the 'dimensionalty' I hate to say 3-D since that has become a term in disrepute. However, I call it the "reach in" feeling.

    DO you find this with the HC glass in general?>

    That said, I was also impressed by Graham's image from a Rollei/SInar. Detailed, sharp yet smooth and unforced looking.

    Can't spend 30K (too bad I didnt see the H3D 39 at Kuland; I have gotten a lot of good stuff from eli-most recently near new 90mm and 135 for my M)

    Thx again.

    What about the 'feel' of the HB? H3? I use my Contax for travel and it is destined mostly to sit on a tripod, but I would like to know its 'travelability"

    regards
    Victor

    PS YES, I must ck out the H backs. This is getting more confusing!

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    "it's plastic and sags with long lenses" about the Hy6.
    It doesn't sag or flex with the 180mm 2.8 AF-D.
    I checked this out yesterday at a Leaf AFi event.

  12. #12
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    It doesn't sag or flex with the 180mm 2.8 AF-D.
    I checked this out yesterday at a Leaf AFi event.
    How was it in your hand?
    any time soon there will be someone in DC area? (like Penn camera?)

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Victor, as you know I am a huge Contax 645 fan, like yourself. It is my go-to camera when I need to travel super light or need higher shutter speeds outdoors.

    Otherwise, the Hy6 is my camera of choice. The AF is indeed faster, but the ergonomics are just so much better. The rotating/revolving back options are a real winner. Having to rotate a heavy camera like the H3D between portrait and landscape can really take its toll on your hands for how long you can continue to hold the system. Yes, the Hy6 has plastic, but it is well engineered and it keeps the weight down (the Hasselblad H3D body is currently the heaviest of all 645 and 66 cameras). For strobe work, the 1/1000 sync capability cannot be beat.

    In fact, if the Hy6 camera also had a focal plane shutter, I would then have no need for any other camera system, except for special purposes like when movements are needed.

  14. #14
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    And you are using the sinar or leaf back?
    (I should pay more attention, but this way I can pump you on how you like the back too!

    do i read correctly that the hasselblad is 1/800 top speed?

    how fast is the focal plane on the Hy6? for wildlife and motion 1/1000+ is important (esp with a fast HB lens, to mix metaphors a bit :-)

  15. #15
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    how fast is the focal plane on the Hy6? for wildlife and motion 1/1000+ is important (esp with a fast HB lens, to mix metaphors a bit :-)
    There is no focal plane shutter on the Hy6. The PQS lenses have a max speed of 1/1000.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    And you are using the sinar or leaf back?
    (I should pay more attention, but this way I can pump you on how you like the back too!

    do i read correctly that the hasselblad is 1/800 top speed?

    how fast is the focal plane on the Hy6? for wildlife and motion 1/1000+ is important (esp with a fast HB lens, to mix metaphors a bit :-)
    None of the Hasselblad H cameras can shoot faster than 1/800, period.

    Boy, do I WISH the Hy6 had a focal plane shutter, but it does not. Like the Hasselblad, it only offers you a camera where the shutter is only a leaf shutter in the lens. Both Schneider and Zeiss make the lenses for the Hy6. The Zeiss lenses have a maximum lens shutter speed of 1/500, whereas the Schneider lenses have two versions: one that can go to 1/500 (PQ type) and others than can go to 1/1000 (PQS type). So, similar to the Hasseblad H, the Hy6 is limited to the lesser shutter speeds in the lenses than the Contax 645, which has a focal plane shutter in the camera body (up to 1/4000).

    So, now you should see why I have two basic camera systems: the Contax 645 when a focal plane shutter is needed, and the Hy6 for everything else.

    As for the eMotion 75LV back, of course I love it, or I would not have purchased it. All of these backs are so subtly different, it is really a tough choice. I absolutely love the color rendition of the Sinar, but remember there is nothing more subjective than color. As I have stated many times on this forum, the real advantage for me is the open-camera system of these backs, which especially includes the Hasselblad 200 series, since I prefer the look of the Zeiss FE glass, like the 110/2 and 300/2.8. Ironically, the Hasselblad CF backs do not support these cameras.

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Victor - I only have the HC 28 and 80 for now. They both have excellent presence and micro contrast. I don't find any need to clarity slider in LR (if Vibrance is the Velvia slider then Clarity is the "fix the 1dh II" slider). I'll post when I have more experience.

    In terms of how it feels in my hands - well it's a handful. The 50-110 zoom (which I'm not getting) is simply gigantic, as is the 120 macro. In the MF world the best thing to do is find a dealer who has what you're looking for and try it - even if this means getting on a plane. This is a serious commitment. I prefer a Leica in my hands, at least until I see the H3D files.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Leaf, like the Hasselblad H3d, is a closed system. So, if you ever wanted to use a different camera for anything, you would be forced to obtain another back for it.

    With the Sinar system, I can use any camera with only the incremental investment of only a few adapters. I now think of a camera body as only a kind of adapter, and sometimes only use it for one lens in its whole system. For example, if you need a 28mm, shoot with a Mamiya, if you need a 300/2.8 shoot with the Hasselblad 203, if you need 1/1000 flash sync shoot with the Hy6, ...etc.... all with the same digital back. Buying adapters and camera bodies makes you more flexible and is a much better use of your money that buying another digital back.

    The advantage is also in the workflow. If you had to use all these cameras with different backs and their own respective software, you would be going crazy. With a single back, all of these images from different camera systems can be processed in an identical workflow. So, if you value your time, this is a no brainer.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Woody

    Thank you for your comments and for the images. even small jpgs do not lie; those are impressive. I am particularly impressed by something I find important; the 'dimensionalty' I hate to say 3-D since that has become a term in disrepute. However, I call it the "reach in" feeling.

    DO you find this with the HC glass in general?>

    That said, I was also impressed by Graham's image from a Rollei/SInar. Detailed, sharp yet smooth and unforced looking.

    Can't spend 30K (too bad I didnt see the H3D 39 at Kuland; I have gotten a lot of good stuff from eli-most recently near new 90mm and 135 for my M)

    Thx again.

    What about the 'feel' of the HB? H3? I use my Contax for travel and it is destined mostly to sit on a tripod, but I would like to know its 'travelability"

    regards
    Victor

    PS YES, I must ck out the H backs. This is getting more confusing!
    I won't get into a pissing contest about what is better ... they are all excellent. My preference is for a totally integrated system camera.

    I can speak to how the H3D travels and how it handles, because I do it all the time. I fly to shoot out of town weddings, and have taken it to Miami, California ... all over the place. I pack a Kata bag with an Insert Trolly roller that's all small enough to fit under a airline seat ... but holds the H3D-II/39, four lenses including a 28, 50. 110, and 150 ... plus a 1.7X, multiple grip batteries, 2 chargers, filters and CF cards ... and sometimes a 1000 shot FW800 Image Bank. It's easier to travel with than my Canon system.

    Handling is superb. The deeply recessed integrated handle provides a very secure grip, and all the key controls are at your finger tips without having to take your eye from the view finder. For me, moving from a Contax 645 to the H camera was a very easy transition when it came to actual shooting senarios.

  20. #20
    DougDolde
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Which Kata bag for the H3D? I have one for my MacBook Pro and think it's a great bag, very well designed and constructed.

  21. #21
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    all good comments. I actually left out the MAIN reason for adding this system AF!.

    Yes the Contax has it, but it is slow and can select the wrong object just at the wrong time.

    How is the speed and accuracy of the AF? There SHOULD be a spot focus option-if not, how can a FF system ever get it right? With the Contax I trick it by locking focus and then re-composing. Rather have it work like the newer Nikon systems, that seem to have ESP!

    I am usually a brand name person, but there comes a limit; is the Hassey H3D like a Rolls or a MB. I have driven the latter since 1973-never disappointed. Tried a Rolls and it screamed for a chaufeur! (it also felt like a boat. Too over the top. The HB doesnt seem over the top. Maybe it is a MB to the Hy6 "BMW"

    In which case I will get the HB

    No seriously, the Sinar/Hy6 is the one right now to beat.

    I make decisions in a very simple way; I select an option that seems pretty good, that I could live with (that means just about EVERY MF system, incl Kodak and Mamiya).

    Thyen I look for a reasonable, though not lomg period (say a month). If nothing BETTER comes along I buy. If not the dominating system takes over for another month.

    It is called "Dominance decicion making" Old stuff in consulting. Really, just common sense, but takes longer than a straight 'head-to-heat'

    oops typo....or is it, maybe we really have head to HEAT decisions here

    thx all, it really is helping

    Victor

    PS Just so you do not think this is for naught, I actually bought the R9/DMR system sight unseen based on discussions on the " NOT TO BE MENTIONED" siute by Guy. Same for M8. When you buy quality and experienced people talk it up (and dont have a piece of the action) it works.

    so, now I need a reason to say "H3D is better than Hy6/sinar 74LV. The latter is the current decision;

    ok you H3D owners, why should I move H3D into trhe top position?

  22. #22
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    With the Sinar system, I can use any camera with only the incremental investment of only a few adapters. I now think of a camera body as only a kind of adapter, and sometimes only use it for one lens in its whole system. For example, if you need a 28mm, shoot with a Mamiya, if you need a 300/2.8 shoot with the Hasselblad 203, if you need 1/1000 flash sync shoot with the Hy6, ...etc.... all with the same digital back.
    Exactly! I hope to add the Mamiya and the 28mm some day. It feels great to have that freedom.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Victor, I think you will find all of the technical information and viewpoints on the various systems already posted in this forum. I hope you are not stirring the pot here just for entertainment value, but I'll give it to you anyway

    What if we were talking about wine? Would you be content with only drinking an outstanding Cabernet each day, from the same winery (i.e., fixed mount system)? It may be one of the finest wines in the world and satisfy you in most ways ..... but, maybe one wine does not do it all for you and you desire to experience the subtlties of a good Nebbiolo on one day, a Chianti on another day, a Pinot Noir on another day, etc. (i.e., non-fixed mount system). You decide the limits to your freedom.
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 24th April 2008 at 14:55. Reason: changed terminology of open/closed to non/fixed-mount

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Then you're using the term incorrectly, David.
    Leaf and Phase has been around for a LONG time, but have never been referred to being a "closed system". Each of their digital backs simply has a fixed dedicated mount.
    Thank you for correcting me.

  25. #25
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Victor, I think you will find all of the technical information and viewpoints on the various systems already posted in this forum. I hope you are not stirring the pot here just for entertainment value, but I'll give it to you anyway

    What if we were talking about wine? Would you be content with only drinking an outstanding Cabernet each day, from the same winery (i.e., fixed mount system)? It may be one of the finest wines in the world and satisfy you in most ways ..... but, maybe one wine does not do it all for you and you desire to experience the subtlties of a good Nebbiolo on one day, a Chianti on another day, a Pinot Noir on another day, etc. (i.e., non-fixed mount system). You decide the limits to your freedom.
    Believe me david, this is NOT entertaining. The thought of making a $30k mistake kills that pretty quickly.

    I think there is some info here, but scattered, and often for different purposes; Specifically, I wanted to hit straight on the two rather damning statements; Hy6 is plasticky and H3D (Fuji) glass is flat.

    Woody's images and Your comments have directly hit these. Very helpful, and more pointed than a lot of the posturing I have seen.

    I don't buy the analogy though. I DO drink C.S. from France every day (never white) can't stand the cloying CA femented grape juice (has a universal metalic oily taste TO ME ; and yes, some are drinkanble-they are the exceptions that prove the rule!)

    More like a cars I would say. I lease my cars (MB) and get to try new features every three years. But always MB and usually a sedan (although my CL63 has been made and will be in a few weeks, when I turn in my CLS55 of 39 months)

    I do not buy. I consider the camera and back upgrade programs similar in concept; pick a winning line, but get the chance to move with the technology. If I had to pick one model of MB and upgrade (say an E550) I would happily do it rather than moving through Chevy, Ford, even jaguar and BMW.

    Variety for its own sake can be exciting, but quality dominates for me. And , my style. There is a fine line, but most of us just express preferences rather than just being bigots or snobs. I'm not saying I want to know what others think is best, what I try to ask is specific questions like "does it have a solid feel" or "is it really too heavy for travel" (THAT may be the H3D killer for me, but I will test drive it anyway.)

    I go thru these explanations because, unlike yourself and a few others who really jump in and help, I usually don't get the info I am looking for, and maybe I shouldnt expect it. However, it has worked so far; I have Leica R and M systems and lenses that have not disappointed! (thanks to Guy, Robert, David, Woody etc.)

    anyway, thx for the imput. I look for info; Maybe others WILL be entertained though.

    Regards
    Victor

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    all good comments. I actually left out the MAIN reason for adding this system AF!.

    Yes the Contax has it, but it is slow and can select the wrong object just at the wrong time.

    How is the speed and accuracy of the AF? There SHOULD be a spot focus option-if not, how can a FF system ever get it right? With the Contax I trick it by locking focus and then re-composing. Rather have it work like the newer Nikon systems, that seem to have ESP!

    I am usually a brand name person, but there comes a limit; is the Hassey H3D like a Rolls or a MB. I have driven the latter since 1973-never disappointed. Tried a Rolls and it screamed for a chaufeur! (it also felt like a boat. Too over the top. The HB doesnt seem over the top. Maybe it is a MB to the Hy6 "BMW"

    In which case I will get the HB

    No seriously, the Sinar/Hy6 is the one right now to beat.

    I make decisions in a very simple way; I select an option that seems pretty good, that I could live with (that means just about EVERY MF system, incl Kodak and Mamiya).

    Thyen I look for a reasonable, though not lomg period (say a month). If nothing BETTER comes along I buy. If not the dominating system takes over for another month.

    It is called "Dominance decicion making" Old stuff in consulting. Really, just common sense, but takes longer than a straight 'head-to-heat'

    oops typo....or is it, maybe we really have head to HEAT decisions here

    thx all, it really is helping

    Victor

    PS Just so you do not think this is for naught, I actually bought the R9/DMR system sight unseen based on discussions on the " NOT TO BE MENTIONED" siute by Guy. Same for M8. When you buy quality and experienced people talk it up (and dont have a piece of the action) it works.

    so, now I need a reason to say "H3D is better than Hy6/sinar 74LV. The latter is the current decision;

    ok you H3D owners, why should I move H3D into trhe top position?
    Based on your criteria and car analogies, I wouldn't think of convincing you otherwise. Best of luck with your Hy6.

  27. #27
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Because the H3 is heavier than the Hy6? or because the AF is slower? I thought the H3 AF was pretty fast. Right now the only reason the H3 isnt at the top is because many H3 users say it IS a handful, and could be tiring handheld. If the H3 is really better as a studio and tripot device, then it is properly in second plce. I would love a small, AF non retrofocus system with 39MP and under 4lbs; no such animal
    yet!

    But I couldn't fault the H3D on IQ; the statement that the Fuji lenses are flat seems off the mark, per your and Woody Campbell's impressive images. But I have already had THREE rotator cuff operations, I have disk stenosis and am not looking forward to a trek with 30lbs of gear

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    I have a Hy6 and made sure that all my lenses are NON-AF.
    If you want fast and good AF,get a Nikon,Canon etc.
    The only negative part of the Hy6 is no 29mm (H3)(28.9 to be precise)
    Actually after using the DAC with Flexcolor the 29 will be more like a 31-32.
    So the 35 that's in the making for the Hy6 is not so bad after all.
    However I doubt I'll get one.
    Cheers,
    Willem.

    N.B the 3inch display of the H3DII is very sexy though!

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Victor,
    I think your car analogy is a good one in certain respects. I doubt you would buy a new car without a test drive. The cost of either of these systems is significantly more than the Leica DMR and M8. I would encourage you to try them out even if it means traveling to do so. Sometimes something just feels right to one person and not to another. Marc loves his Hassy gear and, based on his posted images, there's no question that it delivers the goods. I really do not expect the images from my new Sinar back to be any better than what I was getting with my Aptus 75S (after all, it's the same sensor). For me the decision to switch was based primarily on a desire to have one back for multiple camera platforms. The other David K clearly has the same priorities. Having both the Aptus and the ZD back wasn't working for me and having two high end backs is simply out of the question financially.

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Because the H3 is heavier than the Hy6? or because the AF is slower? I thought the H3 AF was pretty fast. Right now the only reason the H3 isnt at the top is because many H3 users say it IS a handful, and could be tiring handheld. If the H3 is really better as a studio and tripot device, then it is properly in second plce. I would love a small, AF non retrofocus system with 39MP and under 4lbs; no such animal
    yet!

    But I couldn't fault the H3D on IQ; the statement that the Fuji lenses are flat seems off the mark, per your and Woody Campbell's impressive images. But I have already had THREE rotator cuff operations, I have disk stenosis and am not looking forward to a trek with 30lbs of gear
    I don't hold myself out as an expert on the H3 after a month's experience. The controls are easy if you have experience with a 1Ds or similar SLR, but that's not the issue. There is a significant learning curve in terms of how to get the best out of any digital camera, particularly systems that are this complex, and more particularly because not all shooting situations are a sunny spring day in Central Park. On the subject of focusing the H3 is reasonably fast but don't expect it to act like a Nikon D3 - the small market for specialized MF gear won't support the R&D that Nikon devoted to the D3.

    On the "handful" issue, design a mf system on a blank sheet of paper. Start with a 36x49 sensor, add mirror box big enough to illuminate a 36x49 focusing screen, add a prism finder with a 100% view (Canon saves significant size and weight by using 92% or whatever it is), design a lens mount that is big enough to avoid vignetting and throw in a specialized computer to support the imager chip. You can't save weight on materials by using plastic. So you end up with a handful - all of these cameras are big and heavy. The real questions is do the ergonomics of a particular system work for you.

    Each of the systems discussed here produces outstanding results. You'll adapt to the quirks of whatever system you select.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Okay, let's get real. Everyone is aligning positives as generalized statements to support their preferences and purchased decisions.

    Each person has a list of priorities, and each comes to the party with previous experiences that formed their level of comfort with how a piece of gear meets their needs. All I can do is share my preferences and why.

    One of your priorities is system weight. To some degree it's also one of mine since I use the H3D-II/39 for weddings and commercial location work ... and also have a bad "sports" shoulder. The raw weight of the Hy6 is 4.7lbs (Camera/WLF/Back/80mm), verses the H3D at 5lbs ... 0.3 lb. more, not bad for an all metal camera.

    However, the mitigating factor to that is that the H3D comes with a prism finder and the Hy6 is equipped with a WLF ... add a Hy6 prism finder (which has to cover 6X6) and not only is the Hy6 larger, it is probably close to the same weight, or more. OR remove the prism finder on the H and replace it with the H3 WLF. So, it depends on your shooting preferences ... mine is the use of the prism finder, with occasional use of the WLF ... which was how I used a Contax 645 that formed my preference.

    The other mitigating factor of weight is how the weight is distributed. The H camera is a well balanced, compact camera with an integrated grip that I use with a hand strap that I find easy on the wrist since it's tight to the body to reduce fulcrum torque. This also allows me to let the camera just hang at my side when not in use. It is actually easier to carry at an 8 hour wedding than my Contax 645 was.

    Much has been made about the Hy6 rotating back. Excellent feature! ... 645 cameras don't require this, not the Contax 645, Mamiya 645 nor the H3D 645. Again, it comes down to how you tend to shoot ... in fast paced work a 645 can be rotated just like any DSLR from landscape to portrait without removing the camera from your eye. I prefer this, and am fully comfortable with it, because of previous experience, and the type of really fast paced work I also do.

    AF speed/accuracy. In the test Irakly and I did between a Leaf AFi and my H3D/39 (before Hyper focus was added to the H3D-II), it was a wash ...(actually the H beat the AFi, but it was splitting hairs.)

    In place of the old OLED LCD, the H3D-II features a 3", 24 bit, 234,000 pixel TFT type display that IS fully viewable in bright light and quite color correct, which for fast paced commercial location and wedding work is helpful to me. You don't know what you're missing until you have it. I have not experienced the new 2.5" display of the Sinar, and don't know what resolution it is, or if it's a TFT ... but that is good news IMO.

    All H cameras come with an additional battery grip for using conventional CR123 batteries available at any hardware store. A real positive if you've ever been in the field or areas where recharging is not immediately possible. Untethered power can be provided via the 1850 mAH grip, the CR-123 grip, or via the Lithium battery on a 1000 shot FW800 Image Bank.

    Finally, I prefer the larger 39 meg Kodak sensor that Hasselblad and Phase One uses to the 33 meg Dalsa that Sinar and Leaf uses. Again this is based on direct experience using a H3D-II/39 side-by-side with a Leaf Aptus 75s ... shooting with the same Zeiss optics. The Kodak 39 meg sensor resolution is 5412 X 7212 verses Dalsa resolution of 6668 X 4992. The resulting work file from a H3D-II/39 is a 234 meg 48 bit Tiff to the Sinar's 190 meg. Yet, the Hasselblad 3F file format appears to be more efficient at lossless compression since the size is 50 meg to the Sinar 64 meg. More shots per storage device.

    Now THAT is splitting hairs for sure, since any of these MF backs make fab files. However, I selected the 39 meg back because I do BIG work, and often need every pixel of resolution I can get. This is especially true when using a back on a View Camera with tilts and shifts and digital APO Schneider or Rodenstock lenses.

    These are preferences built on need. If I wanted/needed a back that fit 5 different MF cameras I'd select a Hasselblad CF back or a Sinar back with their muti-adapter system ... but I don't. I want the most integrated, effecient system I can get. The versatility I want and need comes from the choice of lenses already at my disposal ... every Zeiss CFi,CFE focal length made, and a full range of Digital view camera lenses.

    All that said, I AM in the market for a Sinar back to use on my 203FE ... purely an induldgence on my part, not a need in any way. Besides, a back-up ain't all bad, and if I get a second back it needn't be what I already have
    Last edited by fotografz; 25th April 2008 at 04:42.

  32. #32
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Much has been made about the Hy6 rotating back. Excellent feature! ... 645 cameras don't require this, not the Contax 645, Mamiya 645 nor the H3D 645. Again, it comes down to how you tend to shoot ...
    There are two points to be made:
    - some people prefer not to rotate the entire camera, me included. It is more convenient, adn the controls are always in the same place. If you are using polarizing or grad filters or maybe even sticking gobos on the side of the camera, you don't need to reposition anything if you just rotate the back.
    - this is the only current camera with a waist-level finder, and the wlf requires a rotating back to work in both orientations. These things go hand in hand.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Well, Mark, that is interesting; the weight is about 20% more than the C645 yet I find the C quite comfortable. In fact the system that is most uncomfortable is an old Koda SLRc next the R9.

    I will have a chance to try both. This gives me the right items to check for, and either one for HB V lenses.

    Kurland has a used H3D for under 19k! The H3D II is 29k (almost 30k) Is the II worth it? (actually long term I would always go with latest, except with the new MS, there is an incentive to go for that for landscape and architure. )

    I hope others are finding this as useful as I. For the first time I am seeing facts over ride emotion.

    So, off to Philly and some testing! (Maybe at my daughter's graduation from Wharton.)

    regards
    Victor

  34. #34
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Dear Marc,

    some precisions from my side.

    First: the Sinar Hy6 IS NOT a camera made out of plastic.

    The body and structure is made of aluminum and covered with a rubberized plastic. As such, the Sinar Hy6 is as much a metal camera as the H3D.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Okay, let's get real.
    One of your priorities is system weight. To some degree it's also one of mine since I use the H3D-II/39 for weddings and commercial location work ... and also have a bad "sports" shoulder. The raw weight of the Hy6 is 4.7lbs (Camera/WLF/Back/80mm), verses the H3D at 5lbs ... 0.3 lb. more, not bad for an all metal camera.

    However, the mitigating factor to that is that the H3D comes with a prism finder and the Hy6 is equipped with a WLF ... add a Hy6 prism finder (which has to cover 6X6) and not only is the Hy6 larger, it is probably close to the same weight, or more. OR remove the prism finder on the H and replace it with the H3 WLF. So, it depends on your shooting preferences ... mine is the use of the prism finder, with occasional use of the WLF ... which was how I used a Contax 645 that formed my preference.
    I have done my own weighting and here the results for the Sinar Hy6:

    - Sinar Hy6 body + eMotion 75 back + Schneider 80mm AFD + WLF + incl. Battery = 4.36 lbs (1.98 Kg), and not 4.70 as mentioned

    - Sinar Hy6 body + eMotion 75 back + Schneider 80mm AFD + 90 Finder + incl. battery = 5.18 lbs (2.35 Kg)

    I did weight it myself 10 minutes ago.

    As for the H3D II (according to Hasselblad's specifications), with 90 finder, 80mm HC, battery = 5.05 lbs (2,290 Kg)

    So I guess, for 2 BOTH METAL cameras, that's pretty much the same weight, with the Hy6's finder a bit heavier due to its covering of 6x6.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The other mitigating factor of weight is how the weight is distributed. The H camera is a well balanced, compact camera with an integrated grip that I use with a hand strap that I find easy on the wrist since it's tight to the body to reduce fulcrum torque. This also allows me to let the camera just hang at my side when not in use. It is actually easier to carry at an 8 hour wedding than my Contax 645 was.
    The feeling and impression from users of the Sinar Hy6 is the same: that this Hy6 camera is very well-balanced, more over easy to adjust the hand-grip when changing the shooting angle or when having to carry the camera.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    AF speed/accuracy. In the test Irakly and I did between a Leaf AFi and my H3D/39 (before Hyper focus was added to the H3D-II), it was a wash ...(actually the H beat the AFi, but it was splitting hairs.)
    This may be your own test with the camera you had, but is not what I have experienced and get reported from users comparing the 2 cameras.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    In place of the old OLED LCD, the H3D-II features a 3", 24 bit, 234,000 pixel TFT type display that IS fully viewable in bright light and quite color correct, which for fast paced commercial location and wedding work is helpful to me. You don't know what you're missing until you have it. I have not experienced the new 2.5" display of the Sinar, and don't know what resolution it is, or if it's a TFT ... but that is good news IMO.
    Why are you claiming the OLED technology being an old one? Actually it is a much newer one.
    This being said: the eMotion back do have now a TFT 2.5" bright display, instead of a 2.2" OLED previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Finally, I prefer the larger 39 meg Kodak sensor that Hasselblad and Phase One uses to the 33 meg Dalsa that Sinar and Leaf uses. Again this is based on direct experience using a H3D-II/39 side-by-side with a Leaf Aptus 75s ... shooting with the same Zeiss optics. The Kodak 39 meg sensor resolution is 5412 X 7212 verses Dalsa resolution of 6668 X 4992. The resulting work file from a H3D-II/39 is a 234 meg 48 bit Tiff to the Sinar's 190 meg. Yet, the Hasselblad 3F file format appears to be more efficient at lossless compression since the size is 50 meg to the Sinar 64 meg. More shots per storage device.
    The Sinarback eMotion can do a "lossless" compression as well: instead of the original size of 64 MB (UN-compressed), the file size can be reduced to 32 MB ---> double the amount of images can be stored. That is also more shots per storage device.

    Now I have also to add some details about the storage device: the eMotion backs do have an internal hard-state memory of 6 GB for the eMotion 75 and 4 GB for the eMotion 54 IN ADDITION to the normal CF card storage.

    IMO a lot more flexibility when it comes to storage capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now THAT is splitting hairs for sure, since any of these MF backs make fab files. However, I selected the 39 meg back because I do BIG work, and often need every pixel of resolution I can get. This is especially true when using a back on a View Camera with tilts and shifts and digital APO Schneider or Rodenstock lenses.

    It is, "splitting hairs", definitively. Please Marc, do not take this as me willing to contradict your findings. I just wanted to give some details and little corrections. I can here link to another photographer owing a H3D 39 since 18 months and having tried the Sinar Hy6 - e75 for 1 month. Here his report:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=24926

    Read post 4

    A different way to see things.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    There are two points to be made:
    - some people prefer not to rotate the entire camera, me included. It is more convenient, adn the controls are always in the same place. If you are using polarizing or grad filters or maybe even sticking gobos on the side of the camera, you don't need to reposition anything if you just rotate the back.
    - this is the only current camera with a waist-level finder, and the wlf requires a rotating back to work in both orientations. These things go hand in hand.
    How is it more convenient?

    You have to remove the camera from your eye to rotate the back. Maybe okay in the studio at a slower pace, but for fast fashion or candid work, and event or street work, you have to stop to rotate, bring it back to your eye, and reorient vour view ... it's the fundamental difference between a 645, and 6X6 with a 645 sensor, and has nothing to do with Camera brands or what back is mounted.

    Not knocking your preference, it obviously works for you ... doesn't for me, and all the different types of work I shoot. For that reason alone, the Hy6 is skewed toward being a studio camera to me ... a nice replacement for my RZ ... but I'd never carry a Hy6 to a wedding, or to shoot MF street work which IMO and experience is better suited to a 645 like a Contax, Mamya or H645.

    And you are correct that if a Waist Level Finder is your preference, then a Hy6 is more versatile for shooting portrait mode than a Contax 645 or H645 with a Waist Level Finder that is stuck in landscape mode.

    BTW, It's a no brainer to rotate a pola filter or grad when changing orientation ... which can be done without removing the 645 camera from your eye... do it all the time. And like with most 645s, the controls on an H camera stay right at your finger tips in either mode. Most everything can done without taking the camera from your eye.

    Jeeze, I guess I am getting dragged into a pissing contest ... which is really stupid because it all has to do with aligning what you need with what's available verses what you can afford

  36. #36
    thsinar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Marc,

    that's exactly the feeling I have sometimes!

    Take it easy, we understand each other.



    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Jeeze, I guess I am getting dragged into a pissing contest ... which is really stupid because it all has to do with aligning what you need with what's available verses what you can afford

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Thierry,

    I agree 100% with your comments....saves me a lot of typing.

    David

  38. #38
    thsinar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    EDITED for Corrections and Additions:

    It happens that I have got now opportunity to compare between the previous 2.2" OLED with the new 2.5" CFT eMotion display:

    I can confirm that colour rendition and contrast are much improved, But the other huge difference is the resolution in the images, which is very impressive on the new display. And the bigger size does give a completely different feeling.
    All in all, I am positively impressed by the improvements.

    Thierry
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes, Billy, the new display is a TFT one.

    It is impossible to get 2.5" OLED ones for such small quantities as the MF is.

    I did not yet got the time to test it, but my colleagues tell me that the contrast, colours and brightness are better.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thierry, does 2.5" TFT mean it's not OLED?
    How is it under bright outdoor light, and is its color accurate compared with what's captured?
    Last edited by thsinar; 25th April 2008 at 06:33.

  39. #39
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Thanks Thierry,

    That was quite informative as well.

    here is my respoinse there (I guess I have the copyright so I do this )

    quote from LL..

    ".........Great feedback; hits all the key issues. From the input here is seems a tossup. I did not realize the H2F with CF back would take the 28mm HCD. If true, that makes a huge difference.

    I will have a chance to try both (maybe the three) systems in a few weeks. This kind of investment takes time.

    I currently use, and will continue with the C645/P45+ It works quite well (AE and focus confirm as well) with HB V lenses, from 30mm to 500/8! that I have

    The H3d and Hy6 are both quite close. I do not anticipate using a rotating back, but I certainly am interested in a 48x48 square sensor in the future. That may tip me to the Hy6

    We will see.........."

    What are the prospects Thierry for a 48x48 sensor BTW?

    regards
    Victor

  40. #40
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    How is it more convenient?


    Jeeze, I guess I am getting dragged into a pissing contest ... which is really stupid because it all has to do with aligning what you need with what's available verses what you can afford
    I hope this thread isnt read that way. your comments marc have been spot on, O hope others appreciate the directness of your comments, and the7y are experience based from what I have seen.


    yet we all have our own priorities; here are some other considerations:

    the H3D has shown terrific innovation in a short time, and the Fuji glass is growing on me (after all, it was Kyocera that executed the Zeiss designs)

    The Hy6 rotating for me is a non issue. becomes true ZERO issue if there is a 48x48 sensor on the horizon. I for one like the flexibility of the square and with pixels to burn who care that you need to crop.

    So, as a "glass person' it may come down to whether I want access to the HC glass (and good AF) or to german glass (though I guess I could use an Alpa for schneider optics and Rollei.

    Marc, why do you say Hy6 is more studio (that I do not have, except for a few backdrops and moble Profoto monos) while you see the H3D as a good reportage camera (others have mentioned this as well. But I dont see where they differ

    regards
    Victor

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...
    The other mitigating factor of weight is how the weight is distributed. The H camera is a well balanced, compact camera with an integrated grip that I use with a hand strap that I find easy on the wrist since it's tight to the body to reduce fulcrum torque. This also allows me to let the camera just hang at my side when not in use. It is actually easier to carry at an 8 hour wedding than my Contax 645 was...
    This is an interesting point, but counter to my experience. Holding a heavy camera via a wrist strap, no matter how tight it is to the body, puts a torque on the right hand wrist, that became very tiring. When I switched to using a waist level finder, my left hand was UNDERNEATH the weight of it all, and I found much less fatigue shooting in this position, even for long periods.

    I also found that I was able to stabilize the camera better when supporting it form underneath. If it were more stable to support a camera from the side, then monopods would be an inferior way to support a camera, or at least have a much different design that would accommodate supporting them from the side.

    The other issue I had with a 645 when rotating from landscape to portrait was the flash system. If you use a flash that is mounted to either the prism finder or an attached flash bracket, it is a lot of extra fumbling when physically rotating the camera, since the head almost always needs to be repositioned (and often requires removing your eye from the viewfinder). With a waist level finder and a revolving back, I don't need to mess with the flash orientation.

    Lastly, as far as using 645 or 66 for weddings, I guess that is a personal preference. To date, I think more weddings have been shot via Hasselblad square cameras (since the 1960's at least), without any major disasters.

    I also do not like pissing contests, so this is just my experience, and should be balanced with other opinions from people willing to share here.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Dear Marc,

    some precisions from my side.

    First: the Sinar Hy6 IS NOT a camera made out of plastic.

    The body and structure is made of aluminum and covered with a rubberized plastic. As such, the Sinar Hy6 is as much a metal camera as the H3D.



    I have done my own weighting and here the results for the Sinar Hy6:

    - Sinar Hy6 body + eMotion 75 back + Schneider 80mm AFD + WLF + incl. Battery = 4.36 lbs (1.98 Kg), and not 4.70 as mentioned

    - Sinar Hy6 body + eMotion 75 back + Schneider 80mm AFD + 90 Finder + incl. battery = 5.18 lbs (2.35 Kg)

    I did weight it myself 10 minutes ago.

    As for the H3D II (according to Hasselblad's specifications), with 90 finder, 80mm HC, battery = 5.05 lbs (2,290 Kg)

    So I guess, for 2 BOTH METAL cameras, that's pretty much the same weight, with the Hy6's finder a bit heavier due to its covering of 6x6.


    The feeling and impression from users of the Sinar Hy6 is the same: that this Hy6 camera is very well-balanced, more over easy to adjust the hand-grip when changing the shooting angle or when having to carry the camera.

    This may be your own test with the camera you had, but is not what I have experienced and get reported from users comparing the 2 cameras.

    Why are you claiming the OLED technology being an old one? Actually it is a much newer one.
    This being said: the eMotion back do have now a TFT 2.5" bright display, instead of a 2.2" OLED previously.

    The Sinarback eMotion can do a "lossless" compression as well: instead of the original size of 64 MB (UN-compressed), the file size can be reduced to 32 MB ---> double the amount of images can be stored. That is also more shots per storage device.

    Now I have also to add some details about the storage device: the eMotion backs do have an internal hard-state memory of 6 GB for the eMotion 75 and 4 GB for the eMotion 54 IN ADDITION to the normal CF card storage.

    IMO a lot more flexibility when it comes to storage capacity.

    It is, "splitting hairs", definitively. Please Marc, do not take this as me willing to contradict your findings. I just wanted to give some details and little corrections. I can here link to another photographer owing a H3D 39 since 18 months and having tried the Sinar Hy6 - e75 for 1 month. Here his report:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=24926

    Read post 4

    A different way to see things.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    I never said the Hy6 was plastic ... someone else did.

    2.1 Kilos is the reported weight given in a Sinar supported release. They should correct that.

    Yes, the Hy6 was nice in hand ... however I didn't experience it with the prism finder mounted as it wasn't there to evaluate the balance. I know first hand the H is balanced with a Prism finder.

    Yes, it could be that the AFi I tried was faulty, and the AF wasn't as fast as it could be ... but it wasn't faster, and that's all one can go on. It's probably a nano second one way or the other, so a moot point.

    "Older OLED" was in direct reference to the previous Hasselblad 2.2" display, not a cronological order of invention.

    I like the internal storage of the Sinar backs ... a nice back-up feature. But with file sizes this big, 6 gigs is gone quickly in my world ... which is why I opted for the 100 gig Image Bank for shooting circumstances like that ... plus it places the power source in your pocket for cold outdoor work ... which I've used frequently.

    The other photographer you provided a link to is comparing a H3D/39 to the Hy6 ... my Hasselblad is a H3D-II/39. That's about as fair a comparison as using a Phase One P45 instead of a P45+

    In that thread, just below the post you reference, is a report from a photographer using a H3D-II/39 ... he mirrors my experiences to a letter. All my lenses and accessories have already stood the test of time and duty. It's a known enity that I can count on.

  43. #43
    thsinar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Marc,

    no justifications needed: I did not point my gun on you and I know who said it was plastic.

    Yes, I know that this weight is written in a tech sheet: there will always be such discrepancies (one measure w/o batters, the other with a 80mm non-AF lens, or with a previous AF or then with AFD, etc ... That's why I wanted to weight it myself with all the components and accessories like they are today and as described by you: it happens that I just have it in front of me.

    It happens that I know khun_k, the photographer owing the H3D39 and having tested in job conditions the Hy6 for quite a long time (actually until last week). He does know the H3DII as well and did not want to emphasize on image quality, but rather on the camera, its features, the handling and comfort of use in HIS filed of work.

    Marc, you know it as I do, and we agree on this for sure: there is no perfect system. I know the advantages and disadvantages of Sinar, most of the advantages and disadvantages of the other systems. No MF system is bad and it would be unfair and stupid to claim this. For me, I wish to give all possibles views and details, when I have the feeling that something has not been said, or that others do see or experience it differently.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    The other photographer you provided a link to is comparing a H3D/39 to the Hy6 ... my Hasselblad is a H3D-II/39. That's about as fair a comparison as using a Phase One P45 instead of a P45+

    In that thread, just below the post you reference, is a report from a photographer using a H3D-II/39 ... he mirrors my experiences to a letter. All my lenses and accessories have already stood the test of time and duty. It's a known enity that I can count on.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    ...The Hy6 rotating for me is a non issue. becomes true ZERO issue if there is a 48x48 sensor on the horizon. I for one like the flexibility of the square and with pixels to burn who care that you need to crop...
    Yes and no. I am not sure the majority of people will be happy with 48x48. Only those people who plan to truly print square will be happy. The majority of printing is still based on the 0.8 (4x5/8x10) aspect ratio. So, if that it is your end result, then consider this:

    To print with 0.8 aspect ratio using a 48x48 sensor would require you to crop to 48x38.4, losing 20% of your pixels. Assuming 7.2um pixels, this means cropping a 44MP square to about 35MP.

    On the other hand, to print with 0.8 aspect ratio using a 48x36 sensor would require you to crop to 45x36, losing only about 6% of your pixels. Assuming 7.2um pixels, this means cropping a 33MP sensor to only 31MP.

    So, a 35MP final printing image or a 31MP final printing image? If the cost of the 48x48 sensor would be the same as the 48x36 sensor, then it would make total sense. Otherwise, you would have to be willing to throw away 20% of your pixels ($$) to get an extra 4MP in your image.

    I really hope Dalsa goes straight to a 56x56 sensor instead. I think there would be much more of a market for this size, since it would give back the full frame (and things like a 180-degree square fisheye). For consistency, using 7.2um pixels in this case would result in a 60MP sensor, so even with cropping it would give substantial increase in resolution.

    OK, so what if these bigger square sensors do materialize but are almost 2X the cost (let's say $50K)? Then, the revolving 645 back doesn't look too bad of a compromise, or would you still feel ok with "burning the extra pixels"?

  45. #45
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    I hope this thread isnt read that way. your comments marc have been spot on, O hope others appreciate the directness of your comments, and the7y are experience based from what I have seen.


    yet we all have our own priorities; here are some other considerations:

    the H3D has shown terrific innovation in a short time, and the Fuji glass is growing on me (after all, it was Kyocera that executed the Zeiss designs)

    The Hy6 rotating for me is a non issue. becomes true ZERO issue if there is a 48x48 sensor on the horizon. I for one like the flexibility of the square and with pixels to burn who care that you need to crop.

    So, as a "glass person' it may come down to whether I want access to the HC glass (and good AF) or to german glass (though I guess I could use an Alpa for schneider optics and Rollei.

    Marc, why do you say Hy6 is more studio (that I do not have, except for a few backdrops and moble Profoto monos) while you see the H3D as a good reportage camera (others have mentioned this as well. But I dont see where they differ

    regards
    Victor
    IF and WHEN there is a 48 X 48+ sensor, then it's the same decision I made when selecting a 645 verses a 6X6 with film. I used both for their specific strengths, and will do the same when that time comes ... depending on cost verses real world ROI potential, not internet debates.

    I do not have to choose between the Fuji glass or "German" glass ... I use both on my H3D-II/39 ... and Schnieder/Rodenstock optics on a Rollei Xact ... and could secure an ALPA to mount the 39 meg back on.

    The only way to answer your "why a studio camera" question is for you to go try both cameras in hand. IMO, it is the fundemental difference between a 645 camera and a 6X6. I use both, and have a preference for a 645 by a mile when it comes to what you term "reportage." But when it comes to studio work, the sensor is the basically same size right now (the H3D's 39 is actually a tad bigger), so the Hasselblad functions equally well there also.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    ... Marc, you know it as I do, and we agree on this for sure: there is no perfect system. I know the advantages and disadvantages of Sinar, most of the advantages and disadvantages of the other systems. No MF system is bad and it would be unfair and stupid to claim this. For me, I wish to give all possibles views and details, when I have the feeling that something has not been said, or that others do see or experience it differently.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Amen.

    BTW, if it was me that is being referred to as far as the plastic comment, I can't even remember exactly how I put it, but I will retract if necessary. There is some plastic, of course, like all modern cameras, but I never denied it being fundamentally metal. I think my high regard for the Hy6 has been perfectly clear, and am extremely happy with it.

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Marc,
    I think the points you raise with regard to the Hassy system are not only valid, but valuable. As you stated above, your choice was based on your priorities which may differ from mine because you're a working pro and I'm an enthusiast. No pissing contest here. BTW, it's good to know that Eli from Kurland offers good deals from time to time. His postings on ebay have me shaking my head. Hy6 body at $9500 or so... Leaf Afi kit at $36k plus shipping and without a lens... Yikes!!!

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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Yes and no. I am not sure the majority of people will be happy with 48x48. Only those people who plan to truly print square will be happy. The majority of printing is still based on the 0.8 (4x5/8x10) aspect ratio. So, if that it is your end result, then consider this:

    To print with 0.8 aspect ratio using a 48x48 sensor would require you to crop to 48x38.4, losing 20% of your pixels. Assuming 7.2um pixels, this means cropping a 44MP square to about 35MP.

    On the other hand, to print with 0.8 aspect ratio using a 48x36 sensor would require you to crop to 45x36, losing only about 6% of your pixels. Assuming 7.2um pixels, this means cropping a 33MP sensor to only 31MP.

    So, a 35MP final printing image or a 31MP final printing image? If the cost of the 48x48 sensor would be the same as the 48x36 sensor, then it would make total sense. Otherwise, you would have to be willing to throw away 20% of your pixels ($$) to get an extra 4MP in your image.

    I really hope Dalsa goes straight to a 56x56 sensor instead. I think there would be much more of a market for this size, since it would give back the full frame (and things like a 180-degree square fisheye). For consistency, using 7.2um pixels in this case would result in a 60MP sensor, so even with cropping it would give substantial increase in resolution.

    OK, so what if these bigger square sensors do materialize but are almost 2X the cost (let's say $50K)? Then, the revolving 645 back doesn't look too bad of a compromise, or would you still feel ok with "burning the extra pixels"?
    Good analysis.

    56X56 would do it for me ... as long as it translated into real value in the real world and had some ROI attached to it.

    I'd see it as a suppliment not a replacement ... I'd love it for my RZ or V systems and studio work. Art Directors love to have cropping options and 56X56 would provide just that.

  49. #49
    thsinar
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    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    It' wasn't you, David!

    Not important, but it had been said and raised many times: just wanted to correct it, since this Hy65 IS metal.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    BTW, if it was me that is being referred to as far as the plastic comment,

  50. #50
    thsinar
    Guest

    Re: H2 or Hy6???

    I have no idea, and if I would, then only under NDA.


    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    What are the prospects Thierry for a 48x48 sensor BTW?

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