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A few S2 things
- Thread starter tjv
- Start date
Lightroom 3.2 now has tether support for the S2 - nice....:
http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2010/08/lightroom-3-2-and-camera-raw-6-2-now-available.html
http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2010/08/lightroom-3-2-and-camera-raw-6-2-now-available.html
Tethering works fine with the new LR 3.2. It much more convenient with LR2 than with Leica's own tethering software. About 6-7 sec till a picture appears in LR...
There are a lot of "Develop Settings" available while you capture
Here Leica's own S2 software... but no immediat preview of the picture, its only for capturing...
There are a lot of "Develop Settings" available while you capture
Here Leica's own S2 software... but no immediat preview of the picture, its only for capturing...
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
6-7 seconds is still too long. Phocus and C1 with there prospective systems is 2 seconds for Phase I know and I think Hassy is about the same. Hopefully they can get that faster in the future. But certainly faster than Leica's own program so some good news there. From memory though I think any hot folder in LR from any cam is about that long. Still think Leica would serve themselves better by compressing the DNG from 70 mg files to half that. Must be a way to do that. Certainly less data to push through the process
I actually tried to shoot Basic JPG only with no DNG to see the effect of smaller files. The time from shot to preview was the same. So, it appears that the speed-up needs to happen in LR, as the transfer speed is not the issue.
Please time your P40+ into C1 for me. Hit the stopwatch when you press the shutter and stop it when you see a non-pixelated, rendered preview display on screen. I didn't run a time trial yesterday, but we have tested out Phase backs in the past and they are longer than 2 sec. We have a P45+ laying around that I'll try today. And, if my memory serves me, 6 sec is about the time it takes for Phocus when tethering an H3DII39.
Ideally, I'd like to see the time drop from 6 sec to 4 sec for the S2.
David
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Yea sounds like LR is more the issue as from memory there hot folder was running the same times. The P40+ is 2.5 seconds full res. Done it a thousand times
The P45+ is a older back. The P40+ times have been increased since than. In sensor plus mode I can shoot and look over and it is there on screen.
The P45+ is a older back. The P40+ times have been increased since than. In sensor plus mode I can shoot and look over and it is there on screen.
About the same for my H4D/40. Where it really shows up is when doing a series racking off a dozen shots of a model or action sequence ... then waiting with the art director or client as the images appear in browser on one 30" window ... which I take up to full preview size so we can quickly select what goes to the full res window on a second 30" screen to evaluate and mark keepers, or give the model(s) additional directions. So single shot times aren't the only thing to consider. 3 or 4 additional seconds per shot X 12 or 15 shots, plus clearing time, can add up to a virtual eternity.
I'm shooting to desktop computer using the rear firewire 800 port (the front one is slower and less reliable). Length of the feed wire is an important aspect to all this ... when beyond 8 to 12 feet, I use a Firewire 800 repeater.
The way I understand it, Phocus is Graphics Card dependent ... would that also be an S2 consideration when tethered to Lightroom? What about HD speed? 5400 verses 7200? Would that help in any way? What about RAM?
-Marc
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
David I will post this on LUF as well and i know you get excited about using your trade in backs against the S2 and that is great but we have to use backs that are more time technology comparative. The P45, H39 and H31 are older backs that don't really come close to the S2 as in speed as there newer brother and sister backs so it is kind of unfair to compare like that. The backs that are more time technology comparative to the S2 from Phase is the P40+ but in Dalsa flavor of course and on the Hassy side really the HD 50 is the most comparative sensor wise but the HD 40 time technology wise and mpx. So in essence in this case we should be looking at the P40+ and HD 40 as the time technology comparative. The H and P are much faster backs and more in line with the S2 than the older backs. I think if you went more this route you would be helping the readers more with getting on the same time frame with regards to the newer backs and obviously the newer S2 cam. We really have to be careful because there obviously is nothing directly comparative as the S2 which is a cam and not a back so we need to careful as not to confuse people. Sure the S2 will smoke the older backs with regards to speed but it is a unfair comparison as there technology is dead and gone and not being made anymore. The new P40+ and HD40 are H and P latest offerings and much more comparable. The older backs tells us nothing.
Thanks Guy
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
I would like to see numbers to show that as I don't believe that is the case at all. The time from shutter-release to full-res preview is only one aspect of tethering speed. Here are some others:
- Capture-To-Preview: the time between the end of the shutter release and the display of a preview image. In Capture One this is measured as time until the high-res preview rather than the low-res preview that is initially displayed.
- Max Sustained Speed: shot-to-shot time that can be sustained (i.e. the fastest speed without filling the buffer) indefinitely
- Burst Lag: time needed to display the last shot of a burst (i.e. time needed to clear the buffer after sustained shooting)
- Burst Speed: maximum frame rate possible, measured in seconds per frame (spf)
- Shots / [# of seconds]: maximum number of shutter releases during a particular time-frame. This is measured by shutter releases, not previews shown, so with the 1Ds Mark III many images remain in the buffer (see Burst Lag).
As an example check out a test we did of the P30+ vs. the 1Ds III before Mac revised their USB drivers.
The P30/P45 (released 2005 at 31.6 and 39 megapixels respectively) show their strength in tethered speed if you (like most photographers) want to take 10-15 frames rapidly and then review the best frame or two rather than one frame at a time. The P30 for instance can fire 40-45 frames in a minute with a lag of around 6 seconds before the last frame is fully rendered. Perhaps David could test for us how quickly he is able to get the S2 to fire 15 frames and how long the last frame takes to fully render on the screen.
Of course the newer backs scream. Aptus-II 8 or P40+ fly. But the older Phase/Leaf backs (especially Leaf) were also very fast.
This is a bit unfair of an area to judge though - Phase, Leaf, and Hasselblad (Imacon) all started as tethered-only solutions and have been tweaking/refining tethering for a decade. They also all make their own dedicated software with tethering speed as one of the top goals of the overall program design where LR has only very recently added some tethering capabilities. Also, Phase/Leaf/Hassy use Firewire which is more expensive to implement and not as universal as USB, but is better suited to high-speed transfer of large files (see USB vs. FW) and user varying types of compression on their raw files which greatly reduces the size of the file that needs to transfer over the cable. One big upside for the S2 in that regard is that you could tether it to a netbook (netbooks all have USB; very few have FW) - it would be very slow (since netbooks do not excel at processing/rendering 37mp raw files) but a potential plus for landscape guys who want to shoot to something larger than the camera LCD in the field.
Tethering will not matter to everyone. A lot of photographers never tether for a single frame. There are also many kinds of tethering like still life or product where tethering does not need to be fast to be very helpful. But if you need tethering speed (e.g. fashion, portrait, etc) then the real spec you need to look at it is not lag-after-single-shot.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Good point Doug. I agree tethering is pretty specialized and will not matter to many folks at all. The hard core fashion shooters is where most of this speed issue will take place anyway. I still think someway Leica needs to find a way to use some compression to there DNG's. It would just help all around from downloading cards and going through cabling. I think though at one time there was a chance to make the S2 USB 3 but not sure on those details
true... my P45 does 34-35 captures per minute tethered to C1 V5. Previews come in at less than 3 seconds and full rez is rendered shortly after.
aren't you a dealer of the S2? Or did you skip the S2-adventure downright?
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
We are proud to be a Leica Dealer both M9 and S2.true... my P45 does 34-35 captures per minute tethered to C1 V5. Previews come in at less than 3 seconds and full rez is rendered shortly after.
aren't you a dealer of the S2? Or did you skip the S2-adventure downright?
In fact Chris was doing some S2 speed testing yesterday. Going from hot-folder to native-tether speed for preview is a very welcome improvement and should allow the S2 to tether in situations where it previously would not have been practical.
But doing a fully documented test takes considerable time and I've got a lot of other tests in my queue.
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This is of course something I considered. If you'd like to come to FL for some comparative testing with your P40+, I'd be open to it. As you know there have been some major improvements in firmware and software support for the S2 from when you did your testing before the camera was released to market. And, if Marc Williams came down with his H4D40, we could have a party.
In all seriousness, I would love to do a full shootout between all of the top systems, not just in terms of tethering and image quality, but also factors like battery life, time to zoom in on LCD, view through viewfinder, mirror blackout, etc. I do think the P45+ is a fair comparison at this time as almost all major rental studios in NY, LA and Miami use the P45+ as their standard rental back (also P25+ and P30+). There are very, very few P40+ backs to be found at top studios. I'm attaching screen grabs from four of the largest rental players in NYC (Splashlight, MetroTech, Milk, and Trec). Maybe they haven't updated their rental lists yet, but there are no P40+ backs listed (as of today).
Also noteworthy is the lack of any Mamiya mount backs or P1 645DF systems listed - seems like everyone is still renting older H2 bodies. And because the HCD lenses like the 28HCD cannot be used on the H2, shooters are more inclined to rent a larger sensor P45+ rather than a smaller sensor P40+ when wanting the widest angle of coverage from a 35HC (the widest possible on H2). This may change with time, but if the studios don't see a compelling reason to upgrade from their P45+ backs to P40+ backs, it may take a while until the P40+ is a major player for fashion/commercial work, at least at rental. I can't speak to individual shooters. Perhaps Doug wants to chime in on the adoption rate of ownership of the P40+ for fashion/commercial pros (the ones who tether most) as I'm sure he would know better than I.
David
somewhat strange criterion...
Are there a lot of S2's to be found at top studios?
Comparing the latest technology of each makes more sense... IMHO.
Not yet...
As I said, I'd be happy to compare the latest tech.
Hopefully, I'll have time to do such a test after Photokina. Until then, things are quite busy. David
Steve Hendrix
Well-known member
Guy:
It's not necessary for you to haul your P40+ to Florida for testing, though you might still want to go for the party. :thumbup:
P45+ tethered to full rez on my 18 month old MBP: 3.5 seconds
P40+ tethered to full rez on my 18 month old MBP: 2.0 seconds
Times certainly would be even faster on the new 12 Core Mac Pro Towers, like the ones we're configuring for our customers.
As far as adoption of various Phase One models for fashion rental, P30+ is overwhelmingly the most rented digital back of any digital back on the market. Primarily because it is extremely versatile (high ISO), and reasonably fast shooting. It's a product that pleases, and it's that and the reputation it has gained, combined with the economy the past few years that has minimized rental house adoption of faster backs like the P40+. The P45+ is not rented anywhere near as much.
The P45+ technology is (damn good) 4 years old. The latest technology is what we're talking about here, and S2 and P40+ are the latest models from both Leica and Phase One.
Steve Hendrix
We will do our best not to discuss products we do not sell/have not sold, and as a result, are not knowledgeable on.We talk about what we know.
It's not necessary for you to haul your P40+ to Florida for testing, though you might still want to go for the party. :thumbup:
P45+ tethered to full rez on my 18 month old MBP: 3.5 seconds
P40+ tethered to full rez on my 18 month old MBP: 2.0 seconds
Times certainly would be even faster on the new 12 Core Mac Pro Towers, like the ones we're configuring for our customers.
As far as adoption of various Phase One models for fashion rental, P30+ is overwhelmingly the most rented digital back of any digital back on the market. Primarily because it is extremely versatile (high ISO), and reasonably fast shooting. It's a product that pleases, and it's that and the reputation it has gained, combined with the economy the past few years that has minimized rental house adoption of faster backs like the P40+. The P45+ is not rented anywhere near as much.
The P45+ technology is (damn good) 4 years old. The latest technology is what we're talking about here, and S2 and P40+ are the latest models from both Leica and Phase One.
Steve Hendrix
We will do our best not to discuss products we do not sell/have not sold, and as a result, are not knowledgeable on.We talk about what we know.