Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 45 of 45

Thread: Mamiya ZD for IR?

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,610
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Hi Folks, Has anyone tried the ZD (without the IR cut filter) for IR?

    I would appreciate hearing how it performs.

  2. #2
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Great question Vivek . Jack and I both have the ZD and we have not tried it yet but the possibilities are interesting.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,610
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Guy, One fantastic possibility with this cam is the removable filter/slot.

    You can buy the original filter holder separately and plant an IR filter (or have an array of IR filters of various strengths in separate holders).

    You can also focus after having the filter in place just as usual. There may be focus shifts though.

    What is the best price for a ZD in the US now?

    It still is >10K Euros in the E.U.

  4. #4
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Well 10k gets you the Mamiya AFD -II , 80 mm lens and the ZD back. Now i got a demo unit that was priced at 9 k but got a even better deal. Now the new body is coming out the AFD -III from Mamiya and Phase one so I bet you will see some AFD-II bodies for sale when that happens , mine most likely one of them. So you can still get in the door at a good price. I bought mine at Camera West but David at Dale is also a Mamiya dealer. Also Lance is here on the forum from the Capture Intergration group and he sells Mamiya and Phase backs also plus a variety of gear
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    I just tested this out this morning... And it works

    Bad news first: AE isn't really close, so you need to confirm exposure with the histogram.

    Good news: Really interesting -- removing the IR cut filter does alter the point of focus. But it moves it CLOSER, so there is no need to adjust focus for IR use(!) It actually FF's a teeny bit with the IR cut removed, but probably not enough to even worry about

    More later,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  6. #6
    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    26

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    there WILL BE the focus shift. one of my students dropped a kodak back and broke the IR filter. as expected, all images without the filter went magenta and were out of focus. so, with lenses than do not have IR mark it will be trial-and-error business.

  7. #7
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    there WILL BE the focus shift.
    Read my post directly above... Yes there is focus shift, but removing the filter from the ZD basically moves the PoF enough -- and in the right direction -- to compensate for the IR focus shift. So IOW, the two cancel each other out. Pretty cool for ZD users
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  8. #8
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,610
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Jack, Thanks for checking. Is this a ZD (whole) camera or the back attached to a Mamiya AF cam as Guy has?

    Irakly: Is that DCS back with its broken IR cut filter available for sale?

  9. #9
    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    26

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jack, Thanks for checking. Is this a ZD (whole) camera or the back attached to a Mamiya AF cam as Guy has?

    Irakly: Is that DCS back with its broken IR cut filter available for sale?
    no, we put a new one. actually quite a story... it happened in moscow, where kodak did not have an official dealer for digital backs. the girl was desperate as she had to shoot someone for russian vogue in a few days. i chacked with kodak, and it was $1560 backordered item. i found an antialiasing filter for the original proback for $300 on ebay and fedexed it to moscow. she had it reset by a local camera wizard into a frame of the original filter for another $200. later i learned that a 72mm UV/IR-cut filter on a lens would work just fine

  10. #10
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jack, Thanks for checking. Is this a ZD (whole) camera or the back attached to a Mamiya AF cam as Guy has?
    The ZD back on an AFDII camera. I do not know about the fixed-back ZD camera...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  11. #11
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,610
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    I was under the impression that only the Mamiya ZD camera had removable IR/AA filters. I was wrong. The back also allows for this change. That is good.

    http://www.mamiya.com/mamiya-zd-back...l-filters.html

    It is, in principle, possible to have an IR pass filter (say Hoya R72) cut and mounted instead of the IR cut filter. This would allow looking the viewfinder while framing/focusing.

    Focus shift and AE are problems with any IR shooting. While the shift can be taken care of fairly easily after calibration of a lens for a given filter, exposure is more complicated as it would depend on the light and specifically its IR content.

    ..and Irakly, thanks for your response.

  12. #12
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Sure it is -- you just need the frame and have an 072 cut to fit. Current IR-cut is held in the frame with screws.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    I wonder if Singh Ray wouldn't create such a filter for you. Or me. I am thinking of picking up a ZD setup this week, primarily because I want to move up to a larger format for infrared wildlife photography. Something that gives me this kind of look from my home page:

    http://www.andybiggs.com

    I would love to keep this thread going, if possible.

  14. #14
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Andy,
    Welcome to the forum, I've admired your work for quite a while and going on one of your photographic safaris is a dream of mine. Maybe someday..

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Andy,
    Welcome to the forum, I've admired your work for quite a while and going on one of your photographic safaris is a dream of mine. Maybe someday..
    Thanks, David. I am truly flattered! I am trying to figure out how to move up from a Digital Rebel 400D that I have converted to infrared, and up to medium format.

    I will call Singh Ray today to see if they are up for retrofitting the filter holder.

  16. #16
    AlaBill
    Guest

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Andy...

    Great IR photographs on your site. The line of elephants on your home page is fantastic!

    Let us know what you find out on the filter. After seeing your work, now I'm interested in the Mamiya as well.

  17. #17
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Hi Andy, and welcome to the forums! As for the filter, try shooting the ZD with the IR cut removed first -- the file is so IR heavy at that point you may find you don't need any IR filter on lens or camera anyway

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaBill View Post
    Andy...

    Great IR photographs on your site. The line of elephants on your home page is fantastic!

    Let us know what you find out on the filter. After seeing your work, now I'm interested in the Mamiya as well.
    You can call me evil Andy. Nothing like getting people to spend more money! Thanks for the very flattering comments. I am not worthy.

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hi Andy, and welcome to the forums! As for the filter, try shooting the ZD with the IR cut removed first -- the file is so IR heavy at that point you may find you don't need any IR filter on lens or camera anyway

    Cheers,
    Yeah? That would be wonderful!

  20. #20
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    anyone have any ZD IR samples they can post?

  21. #21
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Jack shot something. So you want a shot with just the IR filter off the back only. Because i don't have any front filters right now for it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  22. #22
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Jack shot something. So you want a shot with just the IR filter off the back only. Because i don't have any front filters right now for it
    color IR.. both visible and IR light (preferable in the morning before the sun has come up)

  23. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimCollum View Post
    color IR.. both visible and IR light (preferable in the morning before the sun has come up)
    exactly! I am just wondering what the file will look like if I convert to B&W, and if it is worth asking somebody like Singh Ray to place a new filter in the IR filter's place.

  24. #24
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Biggs View Post
    exactly! I am just wondering what the file will look like if I convert to B&W, and if it is worth asking somebody like Singh Ray to place a new filter in the IR filter's place.
    I don't think you'll need it, seriously. One thing I noticed when I shot with the IR cut filter removed is that the glass obviously affects the light-path and point of focus. However, when removed, the focus moves CLOSER (hehe). Actually moves a little bit closer than the amount you need to compensate for the IR wave focus shift, so the two nearly cancel each other out. I ended up with focus about 15 cm closer than actual at a 3 m subject distance with normal focus --- pretty dang close for IR
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  25. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Good to hear, Jack. Good to hear.

  26. #26
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Okay, crap. Embarassed to share this but here goes. A really ugly image but taken just because of the vegetation in it to see the IR behavior under open shade with mottled direct sun patches on the grass. FTR, the grass is very spring green, the flowers are red to magenta and the other vegetation varying shades of green and that's a redwood fence in the background. I processed in ACR, color temp 2000 and tint -140. I had over-exposed by about a stop, so this is pulled back -1, everything else normal. Lens was the 80 at f8, IR-cut filter removed, ISO 100.

    The color, my B&W conversion and a crop of the B&W to show the in focus detail maintained.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  27. #27
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Okay, I knew it was a butt-ugly image, but I didn't think it was bad enough to kill the thread...

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  28. #28
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    ok..had to go rent one of these and try it out...













    (thanks to Keeble and Schuchat!!!)
    Last edited by JimCollum; 6th May 2008 at 12:46.

  29. #29
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    I maybe selling my ZD back to upgrade Jim. Will know after San Juan. Looks good
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  30. #30
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I maybe selling my ZD back to upgrade Jim. Will know after San Juan. Looks good
    what i'd really want is to be able to do this with the Aptus 75

    (is leaf listening???)

  31. #31
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    some more tests













    Last edited by JimCollum; 6th May 2008 at 15:20.

  32. #32
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimCollum View Post
    what i'd really want is to be able to do this with the Aptus 75

    (is leaf listening???)
    Probably not
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  33. #33
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Very nice Jim
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  34. #34
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Very nice shots Jim, but I'm going to have to go with Jack's pink image above... it's just so... special

  35. #35
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Anyone else trying the ZD and IR Photo filter combo? (Jack? Andy?)

    Here's a split tone image using the Mamiya 35mm lens (which does have a hotspot, btw), and using a B&W 92 filter.

    Only Lightroom was used in the making of this image (used their split tone control)








    Last edited by JimCollum; 4th June 2008 at 01:00.

  36. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Jim-

    I have done little other than take my system out of the box. I am trying to decide what my options are for lenses, as I just have the 80mm right now. More lenses are on their way.

    I need to figure out my approach with IR on the ZD.

    Should I:

    1) just remove the IR cut filter
    2) replace the IR cut filter with the filter that blocks visible light
    3) just remove the IR cut filter and replace with standard glass

    Are there any other options that I have missed?

  37. #37
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Biggs View Post
    Jim-

    I have done little other than take my system out of the box. I am trying to decide what my options are for lenses, as I just have the 80mm right now. More lenses are on their way.

    I need to figure out my approach with IR on the ZD.

    Should I:

    1) just remove the IR cut filter
    2) replace the IR cut filter with the filter that blocks visible light
    3) just remove the IR cut filter and replace with standard glass

    Are there any other options that I have missed?
    I replaced the IR cut filter with the Mamiya IR Photo filter (pretty much just optical glass). I then use the B&W 92 IR filter to remove most visible light, and get an IR image. From my Betterlight, i have a 77mm IR cut filter that i can place over the lens to get a 'normal' light image. This gives me the option of have either a normal image, a monochrome IR image, or a combination color /IR (luminosity layer= IR, color layer= normal light)

  38. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Jim, are you referring to the YD401 filter that replaces the IR Cut Filter that Mamiya ships as standard on the ZD back? How much was it? I know Jack mentioned he got his from Keeble in PA. If it is standard optical glass, then all it is doing is protecting the sensor. I guess. If the filter isn't that expensive, I might see if I can get a 92 filter put in it. My goal is to block visible light and also preserve the ability for me to autofocus and compose normally.

    I have also been looking into the IR false color 'look'. For those that are doing this, are they completely blocking out visible waves, or just some of them? I might not need to block anything if that is the case.

  39. #39
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Andy, yes that's the filter. It is just optical glass, but it does alter the optical formula and focus. With nothing over the sensor, IR is actually pretty significantly FRONT focused instead of the normal slight back focus --- IOW you cannot hit infinity without a filter over the sensor...

    Jim likes the fact it's clear so he can do his two-shot capture of an IR and visible image for later blend. I have a Bettelight filter left over from my Betterlight days for visible too and may do the same thing, or may opt for having an 092 permanently installed in the YD401 frame and then generate monochrome or false color IR the way I normally do now with M8 files. Or I may just sell the ZD and forget all about doing IR now that I have the P45+ coming ----- need to do some testing
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  40. #40
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Andy, yes that's the filter. It is just optical glass, but it does alter the optical formula and focus. With nothing over the sensor, IR is actually pretty significantly FRONT focused instead of the normal slight back focus --- IOW you cannot hit infinity without a filter over the sensor...

    Jim likes the fact it's clear so he can do his two-shot capture of an IR and visible image for later blend. I have a Bettelight filter left over from my Betterlight days for visible too and may do the same thing, or may opt for having an 092 permanently installed in the YD401 frame and then generate monochrome or false color IR the way I normally do now with M8 files. Or I may just sell the ZD and forget all about doing IR now that I have the P45+ coming ----- need to do some testing
    OK. Sorry for being so dense. This makes sense now. I just wish Mamiya had a filter that actually cut out visible light. I just hope Singh Ray will do the custom work for me. They have always been great at stuff like this in the past, such as when I wanted a better polarizer for my 52mm drop in polarizer on my Canon long glass.

    IR false color and/or dark skies is what I am after.

  41. #41
    Member Paul David's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    93
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Has anyone tried using a P45+ back with an IR filter such as the 072? There was one such note quite a while ago on the LL board that while this worked for the P45 the built in IR filter was too effective to allow enough IR through. If anyone has this combination of the IR filter and P45+ I'd be most appreciative if you could give it a try.

    Thanks.

    Paul

  42. #42
    jaspersf
    Guest

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Yes, a very old thread, but....

    Did anybody figure out the best way to use a ZD for IR? How to fashion an IR pass filter to insert over the sensor? I'd love to avoid covering the lens with an IR filter...

    I just bought a Mamiya ZD body, my first foray into digital MF and realized that the removable IR cut filter provides a great opportunity to shoot IR like i did with film a long time ago.

    Thanks,

    Jay

  43. #43
    New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Brno
    Posts
    1
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    I'm now trying to use Mamiya ZD Back with IR cut filter removed.
    With 630nm IR filter it can produce nice false color images:
    The GetDPI Photography Forums - FPL's Album: IR pictures on Mamiya ZD

    For B&W conversion is better to use 720nm filter, where is IR effect stronger. Above that it's going worse - probably because chip sensitivity is lower at those freqs.

    BTW. With 3 stops down and B&W 486 filter is ZD Back with removed filter almost usable to take normal pictures - only white blance should be later corrected.
    Tiffan Hot mirror filter produced worse results - some IR is passing and it affects image.

  44. #44
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    24
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    I bought an extra blank IR cut filter frame from Mamiya Usa and had Spencer Camera fabricate a filter to fit. You can see my Mamiya ZD IR images in my gallery here. Im using the 830um IR filter. You have to experiment with shutter speeds a bit but I usually use a -2 EV compensation and its helps.

  45. #45
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mamiya ZD for IR?

    Yes, I tried with ZD Back DB.

    I just removed the IR cut-off YB401 and fixed a Kodak Wratten gelatine filter 87C in the frame of my Low Pass Filter YC401 (don't need it).
    From my experience I just need plus 1EV with this setup:



    The whole test:
    https://gosebru.ch/4-test-with-kodak...01-removed.php

    Regards

    Frank

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •