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Thread: 22mpx systems

  1. #1
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    22mpx systems

    There are many members here lately that are looking at getting into the MF world and i think it would be nice to start a 22mpx thread because obviously this is cheaper entry point into the MF world. From off the top of my head there are some nice systems here the ZD , Phase 21 and 25 plus the P 30 back and of course Aptus 65 and than the Hassy backs.


    Would love to hear what folks have to say about each systems and there thoughts on it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  2. #2
    thsinar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    ... and from Sinar's 22 MPx class:

    - the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV: untethered/tethered functions, 4 GB internal hard state memory, CF card slot, display with all setup functions, live video, internal battery, shooting rate of 0.9 second/frame, adapters for all common existing MF brands and LF view cameras (one back fits all), etc ...

    - the Sinarback 54 MC: tethered function, active cooling + fan, adapters for all common MF brands and LF view cameras.

    - the Sinarback 54 H: single and multishot (4- & 16-shot modes) tethered, adapters for all common MF brands and LF view cameras.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    From off the top of my head there are some nice systems here the ZD , Phase 21 and 25 plus the P 30 back and of course Aptus 65 and than the Hassy backs.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Guy, the P30 is a 32mp back.
    http://www.dcviews.com/_phaseone/p30.htm

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Thanks Tom but I would still like to hear about too but let's leave out the P30 for now since it will confuse the topic at hand. Thanks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    ... and from Sinar's 22 MPx class:

    - the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV: untethered/tethered functions, 4 GB internal hard state memory, CF card slot, display with all setup functions, live video, internal battery, shooting rate of 0.9 second/frame, adapters for all common existing MF brands and LF view cameras (one back fits all), etc ...

    - the Sinarback 54 MC: tethered function, active cooling + fan, adapters for all common MF brands and LF view cameras.

    - the Sinarback 54 H: single and multishot (4- & 16-shot modes) tethered, adapters for all common MF brands and LF view cameras.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Sorry Thierry been up since 4 am my brain is not functioning yet. My bad to miss on the Sinars and yes i want to hear all about them
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    I'd also include the P20/+ - 18MP. Some nice refurb units out there.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Exactly like to hear about some options we may have that we can get a back used or demo for under 15k
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  8. #8
    thsinar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    no harm, Guy!

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry Thierry been up since 4 am my brain is not functioning yet. My bad to miss on the Sinars and yes i want to hear all about them

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Thanks but truth be told this is so confusing sometimes and trying to get my arms around it all.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    If you guys who have in many cases have shot film MF find it confusing, then I feel better. I'm not looking to move to MF (I'm a good many years behind in my development), I like to read the threads and learn. While I've learned a ton so far a lot is just pure Greek to me.

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I'd also include the P20/+ - 18MP. Some nice refurb units out there.
    P20 is 16mp

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Exactly like to hear about some options we may have that we can get a back used or demo for under 15k
    i got a used P25 from adorama rentals for 11.5K. it seems to be a good deal considering rarity of C645 mount, but for other mounts that's where the price seems to be right now.
    the biggest appeal of 22mp back was its ability to work with bellows and 1.1 crop. i'd rather have larger sensor with less megapixels than a smaller frame and microlenses like in P30/+. if i am not mistaken, there is the same story with aptus 65s versus 54s.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    P20 is 16mp
    Right you are, was thinking the P21/+.

    That said, the P20/+ is still very much worth consideration as an entry back and the square format of the 20 has some appeal .

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Re: micro lenses - just how many stop(s) of acceptable performance do they offer vs. the drawback of color shift?
    Last edited by robmac; 27th April 2008 at 10:17.

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Re: micro lenses - just how many stop(s) of acceptable performance do they offer vs. the drawback of color shift?
    you know, in my opinion based on using digital backs since 2002, colours with kodak dcs proback 645c are noticeably better than with p20. so much better that i still keep it as a backup to the p25. ergonomically, no questions, p20 is far ahead, but when it comes to choosing between convenience and image quality, i choose suffering
    to be honest, i had limited experience with p20, both times with rollei 6008. since rollei lenses are not in any way inferior to c645 (some of them are actually superior), i cannot blame duller colours on optics. maybe i just did not figure out optimal workflow for the p20, but with kodak everything was right from the very first image.

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Re: micro lenses - just how many stop(s) of acceptable performance do they offer vs. the drawback of color shift?
    smaller pixels on p30, aptus 65s, etc. cause two problems. first, as you noted, microlenses used with them cause colour shifts with t/s optics. this is annoying, but manageable since the effect is reproducible. the second problem is more severe: smaller pixels deliver narrower dynamic range and photographic latitude. it makes dealing with specular highlights much more difficult. try shooting diamonds with p25 and p30 and see the difference

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    you know, in my opinion based on using digital backs since 2002, colours with kodak dcs proback 645c are noticeably better than with p20. so much better that i still keep it as a backup to the p25. ergonomically, no questions, p20 is far ahead, but when it comes to choosing between convenience and image quality, i choose suffering
    to be honest, i had limited experience with p20, both times with rollei 6008. since rollei lenses are not in any way inferior to c645 (some of them are actually superior), i cannot blame duller colours on optics. maybe i just did not figure out optimal workflow for the p20, but with kodak everything was right from the very first image.
    I'm wondering if there was a color profile that kodak used for their back? Maybe I could try in C1DB for my P20? Same chip after all..... I use the p20 and Rollei 6008 AF and I was thinking the color was quite good, but then I don't have anything to compare it to other than my Canon 5D and leica DMR files.

  18. #18
    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    oh, another thing that i did not like about p20 was its incompatibility with lightroom 1.0. lightroom would open 157x157 pixel images, evidently previews embedded in raw files. things may have changed since then, though.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    smaller pixels on p30, aptus 65s, etc. cause two problems. first, as you noted, microlenses used with them cause colour shifts with t/s optics. this is annoying, but manageable since the effect is reproducible. the second problem is more severe: smaller pixels deliver narrower dynamic range and photographic latitude. it makes dealing with specular highlights much more difficult. try shooting diamonds with p25 and p30 and see the difference
    The Aptus 65S does not have microlenses, only the P30+, P21+, and H3DII-31.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    right, i am sorry. it has 7.2 micron pixels, large enough to get away without microlenses. 22-megapixel backs (not leaf), however, have 9-micron cells.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    I think I want the 9 micron sensor
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    right, i am sorry. it has 7.2 micron pixels, large enough to get away without microlenses. 22-megapixel backs (not leaf), however, have 9-micron cells.
    Yes - the Aptus 65S is at 7.2, the P30, P21 and H3DII-31 are at 6.8. Leaf does still offer 22MP solutions at 9 microns - Valeo 22, Aptus 22, Aptus 54S.

    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    the P25 is 9 micron, but the advantage of lower noise may not translate completely, since those were older backs. The lowest noise I believe is in the P30 or P30+

    also with the crop, the P30 has a telephoto advantage, that is, since MF is generally more WA than 35mm for same FL, the crop actually put more pixels out at a distance. It is all depending on what you want.

    Victor

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    The one thing i really need is good noise or very little at ISO 400. This part makes me lean to the P30. i am trying to avoid buying a whole Profoto system just to pick up a stop or two . If i can squeeze a great file at 400 than i think i will be just fine
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Guy, I have the full file of this cropped and lightly processed pic, P30+. ISO 400. If you would like it and can tell me how to do so, I will allow you to download the full file.
    Last edited by tom in mpls; 27th April 2008 at 16:27.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The one thing i really need is good noise or very little at ISO 400. This part makes me lean to the P30. i am trying to avoid buying a whole Profoto system just to pick up a stop or two . If i can squeeze a great file at 400 than i think i will be just fine
    I hear what's you're saying. MFDB's need better high ISO performance than 35mm DSLRs due to having slower lenses, in general, or at least the fact that they need to use smaller apertures to achieve the same DOF. This is the one thing I would really like to see being improved in the next generation of MFDBs.

    Btw, you might find this useful:
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...c=24425&st=20#

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The one thing i really need is good noise or very little at ISO 400. This part makes me lean to the P30. i am trying to avoid buying a whole Profoto system just to pick up a stop or two . If i can squeeze a great file at 400 than i think i will be just fine
    no need for profoto, just get contax 645, or rollei with 2/80

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    no need for profoto, just get contax 645, or rollei with 2/80
    You don't always want such narrow DOF

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    the P25 is 9 micron, but the advantage of lower noise may not translate completely, since those were older backs. The lowest noise I believe is in the P30 or P30+

    also with the crop, the P30 has a telephoto advantage, that is, since MF is generally more WA than 35mm for same FL, the crop actually put more pixels out at a distance. It is all depending on what you want.

    Victor
    Victor, there is no such thing as telephoto advantage. You may as well just crop an image from a larger sensor for an identical result
    To me the main concern is not in noise, but with narrower dynamic range and consequent inability to capture strong and especially specular highlights. i have yet to try it with p25, but kodak images can be safely overexposed two stops without ANY noticeable effect.
    I remember Marc (fotografz) complaining to me that he is getting noise in shadows with his Kodak back in outdoors shots. "What noise?" - I asked, as it was a complete surprise to me. He said that he was getting noise in black tuxedos because he was intentionally underexposing to preserve all details in a wedding dress. So, essentially he was treating the back like transparency film (and that's exactly what needs to be done with high-megapixel CMOS sensors and to some extent with 6-micron backs). I said, - "try overexposing a stop and then pull 1EV, just like with negative colour film". First Marc did not believe me. That until he tried

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    Victor, there is no such thing as telephoto advantage. You may as well just crop an image from a larger sensor for an identical result
    To me the main concern is not in noise, but with narrower dynamic range and consequent inability to capture strong and especially specular highlights.

    I said, - "try overexposing a stop and then pull 1EV, just like with negative colour film". First Marc did not believe me. That until he tried
    Good advice -

    I haven't had this issue with my Leaf 75 - but use what you suggested with H3D-31 to good effect.

    Pete

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    Guy, I have the full file of this cropped and lightly processed pic, P30+. ISO 400. If you would like it and can tell me how to do so, I will allow you to download the full file.
    No need Tom that looks very very clean. Impressed
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think I want the 9 micron sensor
    Concur - after much trial and effort and $$ on DSLR side, have finally come to conclusion that, for me, the best IQ comes from a reasonable number of big fat (ideally in and around 9um) photocells.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    I honestly believe the big fat 9 micron sensors handle the DR better and have better image quality overall. The ZD i am currently using i actually have to add black for some pop just because the tonal range is so wide. Which is great. Now not to say the P30 at 7.8 microns is bad at all but the DR maybe less. This is what I need to see in San Juan with the P25 and P30 demo kits that Lance is bringing to the workshop. Obviously the P30 advantage is the high ISO's and that can solve buying back all my heavy lighting gear. We all know we are loosing about 1 or 2 stops in DOF with MF so to get F8 on a DSLR than i will need lights that will have enough power to get F 11 or more to make up for it or a cheaper option and built in is bumping the ISO up. I think this is a important consideration when making these decisions. Now i have seen some outstanding P 30 shots and makes me wonder. I just have to wait to see the tests . The crop factor does not bother me. Been dealing with that for several years with the DMR and M8
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    Victor, there is no such thing as telephoto advantage. You may as well just crop an image from a larger sensor for an identical result

    Well, maybe you misunderstood my point, but there is a definite advantage when a sensor with the SAME pixel count is used as crop or FF sensor. It's WHERE you put you pixels. ( and one should ALWAYS be careful where they put their pixels )

    With a crop factor 22MP sensor (say 1.3) a 180 lens could be effectively a 22MP 250mm lens (as long as the glass resolution holds out ).
    If you crop a 22MP sensor that is FF then you will only have say 16 MP to work with in the center area that you indirectly 'blow up' to the 250mm FOV.

    That's all I meant

    regards
    Victor

  35. #35
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Guys, just don't forget that pixel spacing is not the whole story. 9 micron spacing might mean that the photosites are 5 microns wide with a 4 micron gap until the next photosite. Therefore it would be possible for a new sensor to have smaller spacing, e.g. 7 micron, and have photosites which are 6 microns wide. That means more pixels AND larger photosites. I believe this surface efficiency is called 'fill factor'.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Thanks Graham . See this is were i need to get educated is figuring this stuff out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Well, maybe you misunderstood my point, but there is a definite advantage when a sensor with the SAME pixel count is used as crop or FF sensor. It's WHERE you put you pixels. ( and one should ALWAYS be careful where they put their pixels )

    With a crop factor 22MP sensor (say 1.3) a 180 lens could be effectively a 22MP 250mm lens (as long as the glass resolution holds out ).
    If you crop a 22MP sensor that is FF then you will only have say 16 MP to work with in the center area that you indirectly 'blow up' to the 250mm FOV.

    That's all I meant

    regards
    Victor
    oh, i see. theoretically you are right, but in reality 22mp sensors are larger than 31mp sensors in physical dimensions, not the other way around. i wish 22mp square sensor with 1.3 crop were available...

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Guys, just don't forget that pixel spacing is not the whole story. 9 micron spacing might mean that the photosites are 5 microns wide with a 4 micron gap until the next photosite. Therefore it would be possible for a new sensor to have smaller spacing, e.g. 7 micron, and have photosites which are 6 microns wide. That means more pixels AND larger photosites. I believe this surface efficiency is called 'fill factor'.
    I believe Canon has used this technique in their latest dslr sensors. They put more and larger pixels in the same area by decreasing the space between pixels.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Guys, just don't forget that pixel spacing is not the whole story. 9 micron spacing might mean that the photosites are 5 microns wide with a 4 micron gap until the next photosite. Therefore it would be possible for a new sensor to have smaller spacing, e.g. 7 micron, and have photosites which are 6 microns wide. That means more pixels AND larger photosites. I believe this surface efficiency is called 'fill factor'.
    Very true. Comes down to whether you talking/quoting cell SIZE vs PITCH, more often than not the two terms get used interchangeably , which as you point out can be misleading.

    That being said, I wouldn't kick a P45+ to the curb if I found it under the Xmas tree.

  40. #40
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    So than what would be the real difference between the microns. Sounds to me it would be DR
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Guy, I have new list of demo gear. Would you prefer it listed here or in the For Sale Area? On the list we just added P30+'s and a P25+ .

    Lance Schad
    Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta - Capture Integration
    305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5701 office- [email protected]

  42. #42
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Let's put it in the for sale section.

    Now i am staring to feel the pull on my pocket. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Here is a quick break down of the different Phase One digital backs. I'll also upload a data sheet to show you more specs.

    P20/P20+=16MP 9x9 micron pixels
    P21/P21+=18MP 9x9 micron pixels
    P25/P25+=22MP 9x9 micron pixels
    P30/P30+=31MP 6.8x6.8 micron pixels
    P45/P45+=39MP 6.8x6.8 micron pixels

    *DOUBLE CLICK ON PDF TO GET THE SECOND PAGE OF SPECS.

    Chris Lawery
    Sales Manager
    [email protected]
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

    877-217-9870 | National
    404-234-5195 | Cell
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Clawery View Post
    Here is a quick break down of the different Phase One digital backs.

    P20/P20+=16MP 9x9 micron pixels
    P21/P21+=18MP 9x9 micron pixels
    P25/P25+=22MP 9x9 micron pixels
    P30/P30+=31MP 6.8x6.8 micron pixels
    P45/P45+=39MP 6.8x6.8 micron pixels
    Chris,
    Do you know why Phase One doesn't name their digital backs according to megapixel count? It certainly confuses.
    Billy

  45. #45
    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Chris,
    Do you know why Phase One doesn't name their digital backs according to megapixel count? It certainly confuses.
    Billy
    believe me, there are some way more confusing things in life. for instance, why there are seven days between monday and sunday, but only one day between sunday and monday... or why american government subsidizes corn grown for biofuels

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    Member Clawery's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't. Sadly, I have packed all those specs in my noggin'.

    Chris Lawery
    Sales Manager
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    I said, - "try overexposing a stop and then pull 1EV, just like with negative colour film". First Marc did not believe me. That until he tried
    I like to think of myself as being reasonably proficient with film, but when it comes to digital I'm still on the starting blocks...
    ... is there a web site I can visit to learn more about standard "development" techniques for digital? I can happily move sliders about until things look right, but how do I achieve 1EV underdevelopment consistently?

  48. #48
    Member Clawery's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by shakeshuck View Post
    I like to think of myself as being reasonably proficient with film, but when it comes to digital I'm still on the starting blocks...
    ... is there a web site I can visit to learn more about standard "development" techniques for digital? I can happily move sliders about until things look right, but how do I achieve 1EV underdevelopment consistently?
    Here is a link to Peter Krogh's book The DAM Book :

    http://www.thedambook.com/

    I've heard good things about the book and his workshops.

    Chris Lawery
    Sales Manager
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    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

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    Re: 22mpx systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Clawery View Post
    Here is a link to Peter Krogh's book The DAM Book :

    http://www.thedambook.com/

    I've heard good things about the book and his workshops.

    Chris Lawery
    Sales Manager
    [email protected]
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

    877-217-9870 | National
    404-234-5195 | Cell
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    Thanks for the link, Chris. This stuff looks interesting, but it's not quite what I was after.

    There must be a standard way of, say, reducing EV by one by technical means, not by sight, e.g. reduce contrast by x% and brightness by y%. Rather than having to find these things out for myself , surely someone has already produced a methodology for doing these things? A better example from film processing might be pre-exposure of the neg to raise low-level detail. How do I accomplish an equivalent accurately and consistently in digital?

    What I need is a film-to-digital technique convertor!

    Cheers,

    Graham.

  50. #50
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: 22mpx systems

    There is a Sinar eMotion22 on ebay with what looks like a Rollei 6008 adapter (which is worth a bit by itself). Check with the buyer and as always caveat emptor.

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=320251895718

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