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Thread: Sinar Hy6 Review

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Sinar Hy6 Review

    Luminous Landscape has posted a review of the Sinar Hy6: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...inar-hy6.shtml

    I know nothing about these cameras, but thought people here might be interested.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    There are a few issues with that review. After you read the review, see this thread:
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=21178

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Both threads are informative. The Hy6 cameras are new and there will be some conflicting reports for awhile.

    I'll be interested in how the "open system" question is answered. I had assumed the Sinar version of the Hy6 was an open platform ... what's not clear is whether the Leaf one is ... there isn't even a provision to use an Aptus 75s on the Leaf AFi ... at least not yet.

    Pat Bono, Leaf USA service manager told me that " the AFi is a totally different animal" and my 75s will not work on their version of the Hy6. What remains to be seen is Leaf's upgrade path for current owners of their backs.

    Compared to the Sinar as reported, the Leaf AFi seems a more elegant adaptation of the Hy6 platform. The Exif data is there and travels with the file. The touch screen is huge and provides excellent control and viewing. It also takes one battery. The files open directly in Lightroom or Adobe Camera RAW as well as the new leaf capture RAW for tethered shooting. However, the prices I was quoted were higher than those quoted in the Sinar article.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'll be interested in how the "open system" question is answered. I had assumed the Sinar version of the Hy6 was an open platform ... what's not clear is whether the Leaf one is ...
    The cameras are basically identical and interchangeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Compared to the Sinar as reported, the Leaf AFi seems a more elegant adaptation of the Hy6 platform. The Exif data is there and travels with the file.
    And so it will with the Sinar back, but you need to be using Exposure, not Capture Shop, and have the right firmware in the digital back too.

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Graham - whre can I check out exposure for the Sinar back is it a download?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Peter, Exposure is still in beta testing. Last I heard it was due out Jan 2008.

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    The cameras are basically identical and interchangeable.

    And so it will with the Sinar back, but you need to be using Exposure, not Capture Shop, and have the right firmware in the digital back too.
    How do you know this? I understand that the camera and lenses are interchangeable, but what about the digital backs? Can a Sinar back be used on a Leaf AFi?

    Interesting. Sinar sent a camera and back that didn't have the right software or firmware to be reviewed?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    How do you know this? I understand that the camera and lenses are interchangeable, but what about the digital backs? Can a Sinar back be used on a Leaf AFi?
    There is a Sinar rep on the LL forum who posts a lot of useful information. Unfortunately most people there don't bother to read his posts and keep asking the same old questions which he has answered months ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Interesting. Sinar sent a camera and back that didn't have the right software or firmware to be reviewed?
    The camera works so you can still judge the handling and image quality. There should have been better communication between Michael and Sinar about this before he wrote the article. It seems to have been a rushed affair (as Michael admitted in the article).

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Thanks Graham - that clears up an interesting issue for me.

    The Distributor in Australia for Sinar and Leaf are one and the same. I had them in my offices last week and I asked them why the Sinar didn't sell as well as Leaf and their answer was - that Leaf had an 'easier' workflow - its files open to Adobe this and that for example. As far as actual file quality goes they suggested that at worst the Sinar was as good as Leaf ( I use the Aptus 75).

    Marc - the new software that Graham alludes to was hush hush secret as explained to me - something which irked me no end - a ridiculous state of affairs in my opinion.

    I will hold off on my final decision as I am yet to do all my research and testing - but it looks like I will be switching to Sinar and Hassleblad V for medium format. Therefore i may post a 35/80/150 in as new condition H series lenses on the FS forum - along with a 1dsMk11 ( as new) and a bunch of L lenses.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I asked them why the Sinar didn't sell as well as Leaf and their answer was - that Leaf had an 'easier' workflow - its files open to Adobe this and that for example.
    Something you will be interested to know is that the new Sinar software uses DNG as the RAW standard, to give maximum workflow options.

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    There is a Sinar rep on the LL forum who posts a lot of useful information. Unfortunately most people there don't bother to read his posts and keep asking the same old questions which he has answered months ago.

    The camera works so you can still judge the handling and image quality. There should have been better communication between Michael and Sinar about this before he wrote the article. It seems to have been a rushed affair (as Michael admitted in the article).
    What's the "LL" forum? They may be the same old questions there, but apparently it's fairly new questions here. I personally have limited time to cruise a lot of forums in speculation of securing new technologies. So, like a few others on this MF forum, I appreciate any info that clarifies the situation, and informs any decision making process.

    The new software for Sinar sounds intriguing. First quarter 2008 will be an interesting time for MF digital as both the Sinar AND new Hasselblad software will come on line for use.

    HB's new "Phocus" software is also a ground up revamp of Flexcolor. Their approach is to maintain a proprietary 3F file format to maximize the DAC corrections and color interpretations preferred by HD users compared to Adobe solutions. RAW workflow is allegedly maximized by designing a very "Lightroom" like process ... which is no surprise since Lightroom development people were employed in the "Phocus" creation.

    ( BTW, I know this because I participate in a by invitation only forum of Hasselblad Digital users made up of mostly professional photographers) I am going to invite a few key participants of that forum to join us here since they are far more knowledgeable than I concerning specific technical details. This should help expand this MF Digital forum as a resource.

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thanks Graham - that clears up an interesting issue for me.

    The Distributor in Australia for Sinar and Leaf are one and the same. I had them in my offices last week and I asked them why the Sinar didn't sell as well as Leaf and their answer was - that Leaf had an 'easier' workflow - its files open to Adobe this and that for example. As far as actual file quality goes they suggested that at worst the Sinar was as good as Leaf ( I use the Aptus 75).

    Marc - the new software that Graham alludes to was hush hush secret as explained to me - something which irked me no end - a ridiculous state of affairs in my opinion.

    I will hold off on my final decision as I am yet to do all my research and testing - but it looks like I will be switching to Sinar and Hassleblad V for medium format. Therefore i may post a 35/80/150 in as new condition H series lenses on the FS forum - along with a 1dsMk11 ( as new) and a bunch of L lenses.
    Peter, I am in a similar boat. While there is no debate for me concerning my Hasselbald HD3 system as the lead dog in my diversified arsenal of MF digital solutions, I have maintained a parallel involvement with Mamiya RZ and Hasselblad V studio and field systems that were my previous lead dogs when it was primarily a film world ( okay, so I'm a pack rat : -)

    The net result is a secondary attempt to keep these systems, and the considerable investment they represented, alive and productive.

    The Mamiya RZ and 645 AFD-II sport the Leaf Aptus 75s, and is the system I may well finally let go of due to under utilization ... to the delight of someone interested in a lightly used system sporting Leaf's latest, greatest digital back. A bargain in the making. Interested parties watch the F/S section of this forum or e-mail me.

    That leaves the V system which I had held out hope that Hassleblad would further develop the CFV back ... an apparently futile hope.

    So, I will watch with great interest your exploration of the Sinar back on the V system ... a serious consideration on my part. I have three alternative approaches: Convert my Leaf Aptus 75s to the universal V mount for about $2,500 ... or explore either a Phase One or Sinar back for the V system and sell the Aptus.

    Keep us in the loop as you think your move through Peter.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What's the "LL" forum?
    There is a medium format digital forum on Luminous Landscape:
    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...p?showforum=16

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    HB's new "Phocus" software is also a ground up revamp of Flexcolor..
    I wonder if they are going to continue FlexColor development, or of more importance to some of the Leica shooters, will the DMR support be in the Phocus software?

    Robert

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I wonder if they are going to continue FlexColor development, or of more importance to some of the Leica shooters, will the DMR support be in the Phocus software?

    Robert
    I hope so! Flexcolor is still giving me the best RAW conversions for my DMR.

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    So, keep Flexcolor. I have about 10 versions saved.

    A lot of the software advancements being made are specifically for the H3D cameras and how the DAC corrections work for those cameras and lenses. Not applicable for the M8 anyway.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What's the "LL" forum? They may be the same old questions there, but apparently it's fairly new questions here. I personally have limited time to cruise a lot of forums in speculation of securing new technologies. So, like a few others on this MF forum, I appreciate any info that clarifies the situation, and informs any decision making process.

    The new software for Sinar sounds intriguing. First quarter 2008 will be an interesting time for MF digital as both the Sinar AND new Hasselblad software will come on line for use.

    HB's new "Phocus" software is also a ground up revamp of Flexcolor. Their approach is to maintain a proprietary 3F file format to maximize the DAC corrections and color interpretations preferred by HD users compared to Adobe solutions. RAW workflow is allegedly maximized by designing a very "Lightroom" like process ... which is no surprise since Lightroom development people were employed in the "Phocus" creation.

    ( BTW, I know this because I participate in a by invitation only forum of Hasselblad Digital users made up of mostly professional photographers) I am going to invite a few key participants of that forum to join us here since they are far more knowledgeable than I concerning specific technical details. This should help expand this MF Digital forum as a resource.


    Marc please invite folks that would like a place to hang out and that goes for all of you. I know it is a little slow right now being only 2 weeks old but we will build in strength but i will let you in on a little secret. For the only 163 members we have there is a big number of Pro's here. Bigger than forums that been around awhile. Hope that says something for our home here and the people in it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    So, keep Flexcolor. I have about 10 versions saved.

    A lot of the software advancements being made are specifically for the H3D cameras and how the DAC corrections work for those cameras and lenses. Not applicable for the M8 anyway.
    I was hoping for Flexcolor Color with a nice GUI like lightroom. The current Flexcolor is a bit slow to use.

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    As I posted in another forum, I would recommend you read this months (January/February) issue of Photo Techniques where the Canon 1DsMkIII was compared to the H2 with Hasselblad lenses, the H3 with the same Hasselblad lenses, and a Linhof View Camera with Rodenstock lenses. Both the Linhof and the H2 used the same P45+ back and of course the H3 used the proprietary Hasselblad 39 MPx back.

    Lots of interesting things to chew on here

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    link to forum Woody?

  21. #21
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    All absolutely right, thanks Graham!

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    The cameras are basically identical and interchangeable.



    And so it will with the Sinar back, but you need to be using Exposure, not Capture Shop, and have the right firmware in the digital back too.

  22. #22
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Dear Marc,

    Like always, when a new product is introduced, there are some compromises to be dealt with and to make.

    In this case Michael (LL) and Sinar found a date (begin of November) to send him a Sinar Hy6 for his review. Since Exposure was then in beta-testing phase, we did not want to give this new SW out to be tested with the camera.
    Therefore, and since the test/review was mainly to be on this new Hy6 camera, we have sent it with the Captureshop SW version. We do not plan to make EXIF data available/readable with Captureshop, only with the coming Exposure.

    So, to put it short, following EXIF data are currently AVAILABLE and sent by the Hy6 and then displayed in Exposure:

    - Camera model
    - Lens type
    - Aperture
    - Exposure time
    - Focal lenght
    - Distance to subject
    - ISO
    - Capturing mode (P. S, A, M)
    - Light metering mode (spot, center weighted, matrix)
    - TTL flash / no TTL flash

    And, following EXIF data are available from the back itself and then sent and displayed in Exposure:

    - Attached digital back
    - Serial number of digital back
    - Capturing date
    - Image size in pixels (pixels x pixels)
    - White balance (type of illumination)

    I hope this clarifies.

    Best regards,
    Thierry



    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Interesting. Sinar sent a camera and back that didn't have the right software or firmware to be reviewed?

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    That's great, so the whole EXIF data "nightmare" is just with the old software? It might be nice to have the info on the back, but as long as it is in the software, that's good. Will it show up outside of exposure, like in Adobe Bridge for example?

  24. #24
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Dear Stuart,

    yes, the "nightmare" is over, with the new Exposure.

    Exposure writes DNGs, and as such can be used in any DNG compatible application, with the EXIF data.

    Best regards,
    Thierry



    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    That's great, so the whole EXIF data "nightmare" is just with the old software? It might be nice to have the info on the back, but as long as it is in the software, that's good. Will it show up outside of exposure, like in Adobe Bridge for example?

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    I put "nightmare" in quotes because I think it is really a minor issue. Obviously it is important, but the fuss they are making about it is huge. Especially since the review talks about the fantastic quality of the imagery, the high ISO performance, the light weight of the body and excellent lenses available. The criticisms seem to be very minor (several, like for the finder for things that he does not even have in front of him) and a little petty in my mind. But it's his site, his review and he can focus on what he wants. I just had to laugh a little when he talked about the battery charger only accepting one battery at a time. It's like test driving an Aston Martin and complaining that it does not have enough cup holders...ok, I understand that it might be nice two have more than one, but if it is a deal-breaker for you, just get another.

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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    I have always noted a certain favorable 'bias' towards Phase One expressed in that site. The bias varies in effect from amusing to slightly bothersome - but you expect people to have favourable biases towards their mates and their own gear choices.

    The Sinar back has definately been held back by its previous software - shame because as a camera it has a number of what i think are excellent features, including user swappable adaptors, inbuilt storage as well as CF card storage. The major and obvious point of difference though is the current lcd screen - compared to its competitors - a bit on the tiny side. As far as pricing goes though as a person looking at swapping out of Leaf into Sinar +Hy6 + complete new set of lenses vs Hasselblad and keeping lens line-up plus existing H1 adaptor plate on Alpa etc - that was deal breaker for me - the trade in cost to a 39 megapixl ( vs 31 megapixel from Sinar/leaf) plus new body plus a 28 thrown in was too good a deal for me to refuse. As for Phase One down here in Australia - the distributor is in la-la-land with his prices.

  27. #27
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    Stuart,

    In fact, when you read the review and are "intelligent" enough, that's what jumps out: little "details" (which might not be details for all, however details) because there is nothing other to be criticized. And you have noticed it.

    That was my impression when Michael sent me the review and asked if we had the feeling something is wrong and if we want to give clarifications. We did give the clarifications, among others about the non-availability of the EXIF data with Captureshop, but it was somehow misunderstood and too late on saturday/sunday to change anything.

    In any case, if one wants to find something, there will always be something to find, and some are experts in this.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I put "nightmare" in quotes because I think it is really a minor issue. Obviously it is important, but the fuss they are making about it is huge. Especially since the review talks about the fantastic quality of the imagery, the high ISO performance, the light weight of the body and excellent lenses available. The criticisms seem to be very minor (several, like for the finder for things that he does not even have in front of him) and a little petty in my mind. But it's his site, his review and he can focus on what he wants. I just had to laugh a little when he talked about the battery charger only accepting one battery at a time. It's like test driving an Aston Martin and complaining that it does not have enough cup holders...ok, I understand that it might be nice two have more than one, but if it is a deal-breaker for you, just get another.

  28. #28
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Hy6 Review

    hi Peter,

    Whatever product the LL forum is biased towards, I wish to give credit to Michael and am much thankful for his professionalism. I have full respect for him and the way he is handling things, and never noted any bias, even if he owes another brand of product. I feel him to be fair, also concerning Sinar, and never saw him bashing any product in particular.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I have always noted a certain favorable 'bias' towards Phase One expressed in that site. The bias varies in effect from amusing to slightly bothersome - but you expect people to have favourable biases towards their mates and their own gear choices.

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