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What's a used MFDB really worth?

f8orbust

Active member
Having seen Calumet sell a (good condition) used P45 for (US) $5.3k inc. tax, and a private seller sell a (good condition) P65+ for approx. $14.5k inc. tax (both on eBay), I can't help wondering about the price difference between a used MFDB from a dealer and the value determined by the market. Take the P45 - the best price I can find from a dealer for a straight sale (of a used example) is (US) $11k + taxes. I know they have their overheads to cost for, just like any other business, ... but still, that's over a $6k difference from the one Calumet just sold. Kaching! Should I give up selling used cars and move into the used MFDB business? Answers on a postcard please to the usual address.
 

f8orbust

Active member
On February 12th a dealer sold a P45+ on eBay for $12.5k, and, on March 7th, another dealer sold a P45+ on eBay with VAW still remaining for $13.5k. Current over the counter dealer price? About $18k + taxes (perhaps with some warranty remaining).

On May 6th 2010 Calumet sold a used P30+ in Hasselblad H fitting on eBay for $4,550.00. Current over the counter dealer price? Around $8.5k + taxes (perhaps with some warranty remaining).

All prices U.S.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I would say that $13.5K for used P45+ from a private party is about right for that back with no warranty. Non plus P45's are usually about $4K less. Most dealers check items out and offer some form of warranty or return period, and need to make a profit, so priced typically will be higher -- but for that you get added piece of mind and much better support when you need it ;-)

You do sometimes see some good deals out of Calumet used, but I suspect that P30+ auction they lost money on. Bottom line is the economy is so bad right now, the only hard closes on eBay are relative deals for whatever the item was. So sure, pay your money and take your chance -- not too much risk buying from Calumet or other known reseller, but definitely risky to buy form an unknown private party.

As for a P65+ selling for $14.5K, no effing way. It was most likely a scam that never finalized even though the 'auction' ended at that price.
 

f8orbust

Active member
Nope, I'd say the P65+ looked pretty legit. Total was £14k including camera and lens, which were both worth somewhere in the region of £4k, leaving the DB at £10k = $14.5k US. Seller had a history of dealing in high value camera gear, it could be examined prior to the auction ending and picked up in person, payment could be made through PayPal, the serial number was available to check out, and it wasn't being sold from some obscure PO Box in a far flung corner of the world. Same old story of something only being worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it.
 

f8orbust

Active member
Another thing to bare in mind is this. If you're in the market for a P65+, you're probably not going to be looking on eBay for it. So, when one does come up it's the rest of us mere mortals who start salivating. Given our buying power is less (otherwise we'd go drop 40 large on a new one) it's resultant market value is going to be appreciably less, given that we determine the price in an auction. Also, remember this was in the UK, where the economy is heading south at a rate of knots. (If you thought the credit crunch was bad, just wait 'til the sovereign debt crisis hits home). So, no, I don't expect to find a used one sitting on a dealer's shelf for $15k - but I still maintain that the dealer pricing of MFDBs is artificially high, and that in the long term this is bad news for everyone hoping to see a thriving MFDB sector out there in the (economically tough) years ahead.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
" ... and a private seller sell a (good condition) P65+ for approx. $14.5k inc. tax (on eBay) ...
Sorry, don't believe it. Show me.

(BTW, was the seller's address a mental institution?)

The value in this level of gear isn't as an investment, it is the using of them.

-Marc
 

Aaron

New member
Sorry, don't believe it. Show me.

(BTW, was the seller's address a mental institution?)

The value in this level of gear isn't as an investment, it is the using of them.

-Marc
Heres that P65. It seemed legit. I was in contact with the seller during the auction. I chickened out with seconds before it sold for a hundred pounds more than my final bid. It just seemed too good to be true, but someone may have got the deal of the century. neither the buyer or seller have gotten or given any rating to each other on the sale yet so its hard to say....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230468696849

Regarding the value of a P45, Calumet in the UK offered me one last week with a three month warranty for £3,600.

A lot of the low prices in the uk seem to be for phase backs in H mount. They are obviously seen as a dead end investment.
 

H3dtogo

New member
I "won" a similar back also in case with 28mm, also from a German and also collect. But as i got to ask questions about serial numbers, different pick-up location etc, the seller told me a silly story about the back beeing stolen out of his car etc. Obvious a man with bad intentions. Never thought they would pull a scam when mentioning "pick-up" only.
The seller in this case has his P65 in bradford UK but lives in Germany and all feedback is German??????? Ring a bell???? I bet he speaks german with a eastern european accent to like my seller.
Hope the buyer read this and proceeds very carefully. Maybe its a great deal but at that price at this time of the year? I wish him luck.
 
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f8orbust

Active member
The guy in Germany was 'listing it on behalf of a colleague based in the UK'...so we'll wait and see on that one. Whether it's legit or not is beside the point though - people who bid did so on the assumption that it was ok, and thus its valuation of around $14.5k still stands. Sure, I'd be interested to see what a similar one would go for if sold by Calumet...but I'm betting that (in the UK at least) it wouldn't be a whole lot more.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I'd just like to throw in here that if WE as a dealer could buy a P65+ for $14.5k we'd do it in a heart beat.

That was clearly not a legit sale.

Here's something I NEVER want to see on a eBay page: "This is a private sale, for this reason no refunds and no exchange." let alone one for a $15k back. The seller has seven recorded sales including 5 cheap bicycles and one $3k Nikon lens. There is a discrepancy in locations (as H3Dtogo said).

eBay is like anywhere else you do business. You can occasionally find great deals through your own ingenuity (like when a seller lists an item but mispells the name or does not categorize it well) or pure luck, but if it seems too good to be true it is. The Phase One P65+ is the only available 60 megapixel back in the world. It doesn't go cheap. And with a DF body and 28mm lens??

Here are a few of the reasons our customers tell us they buy from us rather than taking their business to the world of eBay.

Support - We work hard to establish a relationship with our customers. When you have a problem we will be there to help. 95% of our tech support calls are for something other than a digital back repair (more info)
Accessories - Every Demo/Refurb/Used we sell back comes with NEW accessories. Since batteries become exhausted, cables can become lose etc.
Software - Capture One Pro ($400) is licensed to each user by their email address and is not transferable. When we sell a back with a Value Added Warranty we include a fresh license.
CCD Filter - Private Sellers may or may not share your opinion on what a “scratch free” filter means. We thoroughly inspect every back’s CCD.
Sensor Errors - Similar to LCD TV’s a sensor can have stuck lines/pixels. More than once we have seen private sellers with such an error that was not disclosed.
Confidence - Every Sale we make is backed by a promise: if you’re not happy we will make things right. Instead of eBay ratings we have an international reputation held by thousands of satisfied customers.
Warranty - We clearly state the warranty of each Demo/Refurb/Used back we sell. Moreover, as Phase One dealers we can extend your warranty 1-year at a time (rates vary by model).
Platform Swap - We clearly state whether each back is entitled to a free swap of platforms.
Upgrades - We have a standing promise to our customers to held them when they want to upgrade regardless of what manufacturer programs are or are not available. Selling your back in the future on the open market is stressful and opens you to fraud and to getting a sub-par price.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Nope, I'd say the P65+ looked pretty legit.
Wow, from a seller with a total of 7 feedbacks listing it for a friend --- you've got to be kidding if you think that's anything close to legit. Screaming scam to me.
 

Aaron

New member
Wow, from a seller with a total of 7 feedbacks listing it for a friend --- you've got to be kidding if you think that's anything close to legit. Screaming scam to me.
Setting that p65 aside,scam or not, the fact that Calumet are prepared to sell the P45 for £3,600 says a lot about the market.
 
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I don't think Calumet was "prepared" for that. I think they assumed it would sell for closer to normal prices and got burned by using a no-reserve auction. Show me another one that sold for that through a legitimate dealer, then I'll agree that DOES describe what the market really is right now...
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Setting that p65 aside,scam or not, the fact that Calumet are prepared to sell the P45 for £3,600 says a lot about the market.

It says much more about Calumet than it does about the market. Because you can on occasion find a digital back for thousands less than a typical price from a dealer does not mean the market has moved to that price. It means a situation occurred - either intentionally or accidentally - where a unit was sold for a radical price. The circumstances of why are never clear. But think about it. There are quite a few P65+ owners on this forum. I wonder how many would be willing to sell their P65+ for $10K - $14K (with a camera lens). Probably not too many hands going up.

Generally, when you see a price dramatically lower than what you're accustomed to, the reason is desperate, needed cash flow or sudden change in circumstances. In the case of a dealer, it could be a situation where they purchased from a desperate seller at an even lower price, then turned it around for a quick, modest buck. Or, it has been a unit that has been in rental and has already paid for itself. Even so, a dealer generally would still adhere to a sale price that yielded a standard profit margin. But remember, cash flow is king, and sometimes, that rule may bend pricing from a dealer that sees a need to generate cash quickly.

I sold a used P45 unit earlier this year (with full support from Capture Integration) for $11,900. While the price may not have started there, it was an agreeable closure for both the customer buying from us and Capture Integration. We are very cognizant of cash flow as any successful business should be. But we have never found ourselves in a situation where we needed to sell a P45 (for example) for $5K - $6K. If customers refused to buy them at the price we sell them, then that would indicate the market pricing is too high. This is not the case, at least in our experience.

A customer of mine recently picked up a P45 used on eBay for $5,800. This unit was being sold by a leasing company. The leasing company had very little experience in this type of product. They listed it as a Buy It Now for $8,500, a very reasonable price. No offers. So, my customer contacted them and made them an offer. Sometimes with auctions, timing is an issue also, and a desired price is not achieved - just because fewer buyers happened to be in the market for that 5 day period. So then, they go lower to move it, thinking the price is too high.

We routinely sell P45+ units for $16K - $18K, depending on the condition. We rarely encounter objections to the price, as the clients who come to us typically do so for many of the reasons Doug mentions above - they want a partner and an advocate who has their back (pun intended) now and in the future. P45+ used models can commonly be found from end users/eBay for a bit less, and on occasion, as we're discussing here, at a crazy price that comes from circumstances that are not known (but are typically cash-flow linked).

So - bottom line, lots of reasons can be found for these low prices, but usually none of them are an indication of market pricing, but rather a reaction to a cash flow situation or something similar.

It does happen, and we're aware of it - in fact, as Doug said, we will also snap up a digital back that is legit and in good condition at a radical price, but we do very stern due diligence, both in terms of the seller and the product. We request serial numbers, investigate them for the history of the product, and cover ourselves with regard to the seller, who must be legitimate. And we're looking for reasons to not do the deal, because our spidey-sense is tingling. So, just be careful if you're tempted.


Steve Hendrix
 

Aaron

New member
I don't think Calumet was "prepared" for that. I think they assumed it would sell for closer to normal prices and got burned by using a no-reserve auction. Show me another one that sold for that through a legitimate dealer, then I'll agree that DOES describe what the market really is right now...
Nope.
The P45 back I was offered by Calumet was not via ebay, it was over the store counter , pay your £3,600 and off you go, (3 month warranty).

And the one that they sold on ebay didnt burn them either. They had that one on ebay for £4,000 opening bid, they got zero bids on it! It was relisted the following week for £3,500.
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
I've been watching the bottom end of the 22 mpix market.

Mamiya ZD cameras are regularly going for 3K

A ZD back + AFD II was recently on this site for 4.5K

A P25 just sold on Adorama for about 4K

Aptus 22's seem to go for around 4-5K depending .....

For the 25+, from a dealer, you get to 8-9K ( web site price )

The old Koadak 16mpex go for around 2-2.5K

The even older H 25 phase one seem to go 2.5-3.5K depending on source.

Dave
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hey, in a few more months you may be able to get one for free ... or someone will pay you to take it off their hands. :ROTFL:
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Supply and demand is always a factor. I've seen the market value of the old Kodak Probacks move up and down over the years from 2K to over 5K.

I'd still be a bit antsy about spending several thousand on a MFDB, and not really knowing "what's inside the box." I really don't like buying used, but at least buying from Capture Integration means some peace of mind, and being able to bug Doug Peterson if I need help/support. Or bugging him even if I don't need help.... :D
 
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