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Thread: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

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    Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    A birdy told me.

    Larger, nicer LCD, new sensor Filter ... other? ... I don't know yet. Same square 16 meg. Same price (I think).

    I immediately ordered one. Solves a bunch of stuff I was mulling over.

    (Selling my CFV was the only thing I regretted recently, but now, I don't regret it at all : -)

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    No 48x48 sensor??? Don't know if I will upgrade just for the LCD (which is not that great currently) and an upgraded sensor, now if I win the lottery . . .
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Hmmm.... I wonder when that will be available and do you know if it will do ISO 1600? I like square format sensors....

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Hmmm.... I wonder when that will be available and do you know if it will do ISO 1600? I like square format sensors....
    The CFVII is available right now.

    It currently shoots up to ISO 400, but with an upcoming release of Phocus, it will go to ISO 800.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/PPR View Post
    The CFVII is available right now.

    It currently shoots up to ISO 400, but with an upcoming release of Phocus, it will go to ISO 800.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
    Steve

    Do you know where specs are published so we can see the differences between versions I and II? Is the version II using the same Kodak sensor?

    Thanks in advance for any light you can shed

    Woody

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    A google of Hasselblad CFV II turns up nothing. Sure is a quiet product introduction

    Woody

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Steve

    Do you know where specs are published so we can see the differences between versions I and II? Is the version II using the same Kodak sensor?

    Thanks in advance for any light you can shed

    Woody
    Hasselblad is notoriously slow at updating their website to keep up with their announcements. I don't see anything there yet.

    But as far as I know, you could consider this the same as the original CFV with the exceptions of the new 2.5" screen and the new IR Filter.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Thanks Steve

    I appreciate the quick response. I have also heard (but what do I really know!) that the sensor is identical so the only change of significance is the display. Albeit larger I hope it is still OLED technology as this is the only technology I have seen where even in high contrast situations you can at least see the histogram. That is all I need from the display in most shooting situations. I will assume that the new IR filter is stronger to eliminate some of the notorious yellow bias of the original CFV (which is pretty easy to get rid of with presets, especially in Phocus

    Woody

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Thanks Steve

    I appreciate the quick response. I have also heard (but what do I really know!) that the sensor is identical so the only change of significance is the display. Albeit larger I hope it is still OLED technology as this is the only technology I have seen where even in high contrast situations you can at least see the histogram. That is all I need from the display in most shooting situations. I will assume that the new IR filter is stronger to eliminate some of the notorious yellow bias of the original CFV (which is pretty easy to get rid of with presets, especially in Phocus

    Woody
    The new IR Filter does a better job of minimizing internal reflections, and as a result, will handle direct point light sources much more effectively. It would not have anything to do with any yellow bias, which we have not seen from any of the many Hasselblad solutions that we have sold over the past several years.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/PPR View Post
    The new IR Filter does a better job of minimizing internal reflections, and as a result, will handle direct point light sources much more effectively. It would not have anything to do with any yellow bias, which we have not seen from any of the many Hasselblad solutions that we have sold over the past several years.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
    Nor have I seen any yellow bias in any of the 6 Hasselblad digital backs I've owned on the upgrade path to my current H3D-II/39 ... including a CFV.

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Well CWD I just aquired has definite yellow bias but I am still a novice at using it so I probably just need to play with the WB. It is easy to get the colors back to neutral so it is not a huge deal but very noticeable. Now having said that the files from this back make anything I have ever owned look pale by comparison. Similar rendition to the DMR (which also had a slight yellow bias) but with much more overall pop. Prints beautifully at 22 x 22 which is all I can do with my Epson 7800.

    Thanks Fotografz for putting me on this path. I appreciate it.

    Steve, do you know if there is an upgrade path to the new IR filter?

    Woody

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    The CFV BACK definately produces a yellow bias . I have noticed this from the very beginning and I know other users , receiving a yellow bias as well .

    When I use an "expodisc" light balance filter for manual white balance setting , or even the new SEKONIC COLORMETER C-500 , I get very much closer to the real white balance setting . But the yellow bias is still there , not as strong as before , but still visible .
    Using the auto-color function in PSCS3 two or even three times in sequence , helps a lot , but there is still a yellow bias , especially in metallic surfaces , which normally turnout in medium or light grey . They have definately a yellow bias .

    Any help ? ? ?

    Regards Jürgen

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    The CFV BACK definately produces a yellow bias . I have noticed this from the very beginning and I know other users , receiving a yellow bias as well .

    When I use an "expodisc" light balance filter for manual white balance setting , or even the new SEKONIC COLORMETER C-500 , I get very much closer to the real white balance setting . But the yellow bias is still there , not as strong as before , but still visible .
    Using the auto-color function in PSCS3 two or even three times in sequence , helps a lot , but there is still a yellow bias , especially in metallic surfaces , which normally turnout in medium or light grey . They have definately a yellow bias .

    Any help ? ? ?

    Regards Jürgen
    Jurgen:

    Have you ever shot a MacBeth color checker and clicked on the grey square in Flexcolor? If you have, were colors then rendered neutrally or were they not?

    Thanks,
    Steve

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Well CWD I just aquired has definite yellow bias but I am still a novice at using it so I probably just need to play with the WB. It is easy to get the colors back to neutral so it is not a huge deal but very noticeable. Now having said that the files from this back make anything I have ever owned look pale by comparison. Similar rendition to the DMR (which also had a slight yellow bias) but with much more overall pop. Prints beautifully at 22 x 22 which is all I can do with my Epson 7800.

    Thanks Fotografz for putting me on this path. I appreciate it.

    Steve, do you know if there is an upgrade path to the new IR filter?

    Woody
    Woody:

    Please if you could respond to the same question I have posed to Jurgen.

    Regarding the IR Filter, if you feel you are getting artifacts that are not acceptable from direct point source lighting, the new IR FIlter might improve this. It is not guaranteed, and you may not even have an issue. But if you truly feel you would benefit from the new IR Filter, I would ask your dealer about an IR FIlter replacement through Hasselblad. If they don't know anything about it, request that they find out.

    Understand, Hasselblad does not want every owner of a Hasselbald product to start sending requests in for new IR FIlters - not everyone has the need, and replacing the filter won't necessarily make any difference. As a result, these are handled on a case by case basis. So, if you feel this applies to you, have your dealer make the inquiry. You'll still have to pay for the replacement even if it goes forward.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Steve

    First of all , thank you for responding .

    I have no MAC BETH color checker , but what I have and also used for comparison is an "expodisc" white balance filter and a SEKONIC COLORMETER C-500 , set to digital when measuring .

    I know , that human beeing have different ability of regarding colors .
    But the yellow bias I still can see after a number of "tricky" manipulations in PS is also seen by others .

    Alloy and blank metal surfaces are very good candidate to see this yellow bias . I have a shot here from a vintage HASSELBLAD with an aluminium lens barrel and a KODAK hood . Same material .

    But even if I would insert the image in this forum , you would not see the bias , because a resolution of 72PPI and a width of 500 pixel looses the image information .

    Regards Jürgen

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Steve

    First of all , thank you for responding .

    I have no MAC BETH color checker , but what I have and also used for comparison is an "expodisc" white balance filter and a SEKONIC COLORMETER C-500 , set to digital when measuring .

    I know , that human beeing have different ability of regarding colors .
    But the yellow bias I still can see after a number of "tricky" manipulations in PS is also seen by others .

    Alloy and blank metal surfaces are very good candidate to see this yellow bias . I have a shot here from a vintage HASSELBLAD with an aluminium lens barrel and a KODAK hood . Same material .

    But even if I would insert the image in this forum , you would not see the bias , because a resolution of 72PPI and a width of 500 pixel looses the image information .

    Regards Jürgen
    Jürgen:

    My initial response would be that using an ExpoDisk could have any number of color biases, depending on the product you're shooting with. It's not my understanding that an ExpoDisk is working from strictly a particular neutral standpoint.

    When I say that I'm not seeing color biases in Hasselblad products, I'm saying when neutralizing with a product designed to read spectrally neutral (or close to it), I am not seeing any color bias, at least none over the whole image and the colors are as accurate, if not more so, as any other product I've sold.

    Otherwise, if you are using the daylight canned white balance, shady, etc, you can see biases. If you're measuring color temperature and you're at 5500, and then you set to daylight (which reads 5500 in Flexcolor), it may have a bias, and if so, that could be a situation where your back would benefit from a re-calibration. But its also possible that even re-calibrated, it may not render exactly as the numbers would indicate.

    The easiest way to establish non-biased colors is to manually capture a neutral grey card with the camera via the "manual" white balance mode, rather than setting it to "daylight, cloudy, etc".


    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Steve

    Thanks . I will do some tests in the next days and give feedback .

    A) colormeter
    B) expodisc filter
    C) KODAK grey card .

    Regards Jürgen

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Steve

    Thanks . I will do some tests in the next days and give feedback .

    A) colormeter
    B) expodisc filter
    C) KODAK grey card .

    Regards Jürgen
    Ok, good. But keep in mind the Kodak grey card is not spectrally neutral as it's real intent is for exposure correction, rather than color.

    Let me kow how your testing turns out.

    Thanks,
    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Yes be careful of the grey card it will have a blue tendency. WhiBal cards are good
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Guy

    What is a white balance card ?
    That little "stripe type" card which came with the CFV BACK can not really be a white balance card , but it made me laugh . Pherhaps I am wrong here .

    On the other side , I get the impression , that my investment into the expo filter and color meter was a extreme waist of money. Hopefully not .

    Jürgen

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/PPR View Post
    Woody:

    Please if you could respond to the same question I have posed to Jurgen.

    Regarding the IR Filter, if you feel you are getting artifacts that are not acceptable from direct point source lighting, the new IR FIlter might improve this. It is not guaranteed, and you may not even have an issue. But if you truly feel you would benefit from the new IR Filter, I would ask your dealer about an IR FIlter replacement through Hasselblad. If they don't know anything about it, request that they find out.

    Understand, Hasselblad does not want every owner of a Hasselbald product to start sending requests in for new IR FIlters - not everyone has the need, and replacing the filter won't necessarily make any difference. As a result, these are handled on a case by case basis. So, if you feel this applies to you, have your dealer make the inquiry. You'll still have to pay for the replacement even if it goes forward.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
    Steve

    I do have a Gretag MacBeth color checker and will indeed do as you request as it may help others as well as me.

    I do want to point out again that these are new days with the CWD for me. I received it only four days ago and took a day to get in synch with how the back worked, handled etc and as stated love the files from it. I am shooting AWB daylight and then using Phocus to fine tune the balance. My only point was to notice the bias towards yellow directly out of the camera "as shot" in Phocus.I posted to see if this was me, my use of the back, or if others have seen the same tendency. I know Pham Minh Son commented on it as well. It is probably all a tempest in a teapot since getting rid of it is a no brainer. At the end of the day if I continue to see (to my eyes) a yellow bias I will simply build a preset for focus and use that as the WB starting point and fine tune from there.

    Finally I have no idea yet whether I will find any issues with the current IR filter. I haven't had the system long enough to know. I was really just inquiring to get insight into what the new back brings to the party. Sounds like considering an upgrade would be a major waste of money unless one is anal about LCD size. Buying a first one of course is a different animal.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer my queries

    The newbie Hassy guy

    Woody

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Guy

    What is a white balance card ?
    That little "stripe type" card which came with the CFV BACK can not really be a white balance card , but it made me laugh . Pherhaps I am wrong here .

    On the other side , I get the impression , that my investment into the expo filter and color meter was a extreme waist of money. Hopefully not .

    Jürgen
    Here look at this
    http://www.pictureflow.com/products/whibal/index.html

    Than there a new test target out like a folding reflector that has black, grey and white and i can't remember the name . Found it they have different sizes

    have yet to try one but the look pretty good

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._One_Shot.html
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    The CFV BACK definately produces a yellow bias . I have noticed this from the very beginning and I know other users , receiving a yellow bias as well .

    When I use an "expodisc" light balance filter for manual white balance setting , or even the new SEKONIC COLORMETER C-500 , I get very much closer to the real white balance setting . But the yellow bias is still there , not as strong as before , but still visible .
    Using the auto-color function in PSCS3 two or even three times in sequence , helps a lot , but there is still a yellow bias , especially in metallic surfaces , which normally turnout in medium or light grey . They have definately a yellow bias .

    Any help ? ? ?

    Regards Jürgen
    Jurgen, did you go through the full set-up feature in Flexcolor? (Open Flexcolor, > File > Set Up > there are 7 tabs to assign settings to be contained in the combined "Set Up" preset profile window inside the adjustment page. One of these is CC. If there is any consistant cast, it can be subtily altered to taste.

    My dealer set mine up for me, but my CFV back didn't need any further CC after everything else was set up correctly.

    If you are not using Flexcolor or Phocus, you are at the mercy of the 3rd party preset profiles.

    When using Flexcolor or Phocus tethered, you can shoot a grey card in the first shot, WB it on screen and all subsequent shots will be WB to the same standard. If you have batches of untethered shots in similar light, you can WB one, and select any others and apply that WB to it.
    Last edited by fotografz; 19th July 2008 at 20:29.

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Well in terms of ease of use Phocus makes things seriously easy. I found that I did not have to adjust WB temp at all but did need to reset the default tint from +10 to + 45. This was using my eye to judge. I then did an eyedropper white balance on what I judged to be a neutral area and subsequently a white area. Both showed a tint of between 41 and 47. So I set the tint to +45 and then saved this as a Phocus WB preset. Nothing could be easier. I have since taken about 10 additional exposures and simply initiated the preset after importing into Phocus. Perfect. We'll keep trying and learning but this is basically a non-issue. Don't know what causes the yellow bias to begin with but the fix is a no-brainer.

    However I will do the Gretag MacBeth checker test just to provide data to the forum.

    Woody

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Thank you very much

    Guy , Steve , fotografz and Woody

    for your very valuable contribution . I will check everything very carefully .
    I will be away for 3 days but give feedback , when I have results .

    I am working with FLEXCOLOR 4.8.5 and had a quick look to the CC field .
    All values are zero . I wonder how I have to set the values and my understanding is , that these CC values are then valid for my CFV BACK and can be different for an other back . Also , are these values saved and reused for the next FLEXCOLOR session ? ? ?

    Regards Jürgen

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Here look at this
    http://www.pictureflow.com/products/whibal/index.html

    Than there a new test target out like a folding reflector that has black, grey and white and i can't remember the name . Found it they have different sizes

    have yet to try one but the look pretty good

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._One_Shot.html
    Guy, I use one of the WhiBal products for bench tests ... It's shown in use in the 40IF verses the HC28 thread where I did a comparison between a V40CFE verses a HC/35mm

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Thank you very much

    Guy , Steve , fotografz and Woody

    for your very valuable contribution . I will check everything very carefully .
    I will be away for 3 days but give feedback , when I have results .

    I am working with FLEXCOLOR 4.8.5 and had a quick look to the CC field .
    All values are zero . I wonder how I have to set the values and my understanding is , that these CC values are then valid for my CFV BACK and can be different for an other back . Also , are these values saved and reused for the next FLEXCOLOR session ? ? ?

    Regards Jürgen
    Yes Jurgen. Once you set up a specific set of preferences, you can name it anything you want, and it'll appear as a default choice every time you open Flexcolor. And, yes, you can do as many of these as you wish ... which will be choices in the drop down menu in the "Set-UP" window. I had one for my CFV, and another for my H3D/39.

    Also note that there are even more choices which allow you to use different preset defaults like "Old Film Standard" and so on.

    Software is the gateway to tweaking these backs to your personal style and preferences.

    NOTE: Phocus is still using Flexcolor Color Profiles ... so, if you install Phocus Public Beta, you MUST keep Flexcolor on your machine. Phocus is MUCH better software than Flexcolor BTW.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Guy, I use one of the WhiBal products for bench tests ... It's shown in use in the 40IF verses the HC28 thread where I did a comparison between a V40CFE verses a HC/35mm
    Yea I think there probably the best thing on the market for a white balance card. I use the pocket one a lot . I just hold it out in front of me a lot and take a frame. I'm not a fan of the expodisk myself but some folks swear by them.

    This gives me a nice idea for a thread
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Early Alert: Hasselblad CFV-II

    I have done some testing now .
    One and the same object under the absolutely same light conditions : daylight , no clouds at all . 3 measurements per method ! !

    Using a white balance card in the size of DINA4 size (21x29,7) results in a color temperature of 5100K , 5013K , 5048K .

    Using the EXPODISC I got 4952K , 4960K , 4948 .

    Using the SEKONIC METER C-500 I got 5570K , 5580K , 5565K . This is nearest the color temperature HASSELBLAD has defined for daylight : 5500K .

    All measurements vary a bit of the angle of you measurement .

    Reading the FLEXCOLOR manuals , these difference do not really matter , as all is lossless compensated using the white balance facility in FLEXCOLOR .

    Nice to know , that makes the colormeter absolete . ?

    NO . The colormeter results show you , if neccessary , which compensating filters (not color correction filters) are reqired for an existing situation .
    Not bad , but in most cases shurely obsolete . The main benefit of the colormeter is its ease of use . Just like the usage of a lightmeter .

    A whitebalance card of that size is shurely not beloved by everybody , but it is the cheapest way to "whitebalance" .

    The EXPODISC shurely is easyier to handle , but is more expensive .

    My conclusion :
    These three tested ways to obtain a "good" white balance lead not to the same results from the color temperature , but as FLEXCOLOR is capable to handle these differences
    it is a question of what you want to pay for what comfort in measurement .

    But surpriseingly , in all taken images , the yellow bias , I was talking about , is still there .
    I followed Marc's suggestion , and set up different "profiles" in FLEXCOLOR and also in PSCS3 to get rid of that yellow bias .
    Unfortunately , you just can not use one and the same CC profile for all images , as the colors of your images differ very much and therefore also your personal ability to see a yellow bias or not .
    I know , these "profiles" , I created , are a crotch and no general solution , but it works .
    For the image with the alluminium barrel of a HASSELBLAD 1600F , I had to reduce the yellow saturation by 70% .
    This does not affect any other colr , at least , not visable for me .

    Best regards Jürgen

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