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Thread: Almost ready to take the plunge..

  1. #51
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Roger,

    I know others here have expressed otherwise, but I've found Lightroom conversions from S2 files to be excellent..... And even better once one knows the best settings (subject to personal taste, of course). I've been working with S2 raw files for the better part of nine months now and have developed my own presets and best practices for LR. I freely share these with my S2 customers or anyone for that matter. Nothing secret, just the results of my own process.

    After creating my own ICC profile for C1, I did find the color in C1 to be much better (no purple skies, etc.), but the overall image rendering is still better in LR. Again, I've posted ts profile for anyone to use.

    Adobe and Leica have actually entered into a pretty extensive relationship, beyond mere "support for...". Consider that all new Leica digital products ship with bundled Adobe software. S2, M9 and X1 all come with Lightroom. The new V-lux 20 comes with Photoshop Elements 8. We are talking about over 100,000 licenses. This is not insignificant. Leica chose to walk away from a similar relationship with Phase One (and one we could surmise was a profitable one for Phase). Many could speculate on the reasons, but the bottom line is that Phase is a hardware competitor and Adobe is a software company who happens to make industry standard software.

    I'd be happy to work with you one-on-one to show you what can be done with the S2 and LR. We have a few demo S2 systems so you could try one for yourself in the field rather than just in a store and we can work together to process the files.

    David

    Thanks David for the kind offer. At this point I am over my head and will leave the debate to the better qualified MF experts.

  2. #52
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Roger,

    I know others here have expressed otherwise, but I've found Lightroom conversions from S2 files to be excellent..... And even better once one knows the best settings (subject to personal taste, of course). I've been working with S2 raw files for the better part of nine months now and have developed my own presets and best practices for LR. I freely share these with my S2 customers or anyone for that matter. Nothing secret, just the results of my own process.

    After creating my own ICC profile for C1, I did find the color in C1 to be much better (no purple skies, etc.), but the overall image rendering is still better in LR. Again, I've posted ts profile for anyone to use.

    Adobe and Leica have actually entered into a pretty extensive relationship, beyond mere "support for...". Consider that all new Leica digital products ship with bundled Adobe software. S2, M9 and X1 all come with Lightroom. The new V-lux 20 comes with Photoshop Elements 8. We are talking about over 100,000 licenses. This is not insignificant. Leica chose to walk away from a similar relationship with Phase One (and one we could surmise was a profitable one for Phase). Many could speculate on the reasons, but the bottom line is that Phase is a hardware competitor and Adobe is a software company who happens to make industry standard software.

    I'd be happy to work with you one-on-one to show you what can be done with the S2 and LR. We have a few demo S2 systems so you could try one for yourself in the field rather than just in a store and we can work together to process the files.

    David
    I will never be convinced that any color profile made is the end all. There is so much more that you can't do to the profile except color only. None of this address corrections, noise, moire, DR, tonality, artifacts of the sensor and a slew of other things. None of that can be done with a color profile alone . You are not working at the sensor level but a simple bandaid for color. Hassy and Phase everything in there software is designed from the ground up specifically for there sensors. This has been spelled out several times in this thread.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I will never be convinced that any color profile made is the end all. There is so much more that you can't do to the profile except color only. None of this address corrections, noise, moire, DR, tonality, artifacts of the sensor and a slew of other things. None of that can be done with a color profile alone . You are not working at the sensor level but a simple bandaid for color. Hassy and Phase everything in there software is designed from the ground up specifically for there sensors. This has been spelled out several times in this thread.
    I completely agree, which is why I said I prefer the conversions from LR over C1. I've also stated before that there are strange artifacts with S2 files in C1, such as maze patterning and highlight crystallization. The profile only fixes color, which is all an ICC camera profile is designed to do.

    I should have mentioned in my previous post that I was exclusively a C1 user for 4-5 years before making the switch to LR (I even recall using C1 while you were using LR on our trip to Germany ). Initially, it was disappointing to me that C1 didn't offer true support for S2 raw files, but after using LR I can't ever imagine going back. Of course, for a Phase One user C1 is the best option. Some, like Michael Reichmann use both - C1 for initial conversion and LR for everything else.

    I encourage everyone to try for themselves and use what they like.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  4. #54
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Sure I used LR in the past but it was at a time when C1 hit a low on functionality and was not a big 3.7 fan but the newer versions are rock solid as it is today. End of the day I will always use a raw processor dedicated to the camera than a raw processor that is generic. You have no idea what you are leaving on the editing floor as they say.

    I still contend that Leica needs there own package from the ground up and at the cost of this system it should not be placed in the hands of a 3rd party vendor. Also if you read our review we said LR is better on the S2 files and this just goes to show the differences between the two raw processors and if they had there own it may just blow LR out of the water building from the ground up. At this level generic does not cut it.

    Now most folks may not care either way but I do and that has been my point all along. No one will care more about the raw processing than the OEM's that make there own for there systems.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  5. #55
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Guy

    I agree that a proprietary solution( incorporating as much of the conversion as possible) provides the best technical architecture ...it is not the only path to superior IQ. Look at C1 clearly not a proprietary solution for the M9 but still pretty darn good by most standards.

    MR had some terminology for this in his "best of breed" C1/LR workflow....but he found little difference in using C1 for a pretty basic raw conversion ...outputing a TIFF and then using LR for the rest. Plenty of examples of plugins or individual sharpening,noise reduction products that have strong followings.

    Leica had got excellent results with the DMR and M8/M9 working with smaller software firms that stayed focused on the Leica products. Those were not proprietary products in the same sense that you have with Phase backs and C1.

    Both Hasselblad and Phase are putting more and more into their raw conversion engine and the results are getting better. But...If you told me C1 was being tuned for the S2....I would be happy. Its hard to see Adobe doing the same unless a 3rd party "tuner" was involved . Time will tell.

  6. #56
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Yes and MR is using the most important part of C1 with his P65+ the dedication to that back. Than from there obviously you can tweak the Tif or whatever you need. But he is sucking all that dedication to raw process right off the bat.

    Yes time will tell.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Leica should have fixed these differences by now ..if Adobe is the new standard. They need their version of AMG that tunes Mercedes .
    Hard to tell what Leica is thinking but perhaps they feel that what can be achieved through LR is good enough... especially for what they perceive as their target market. I've seen some of David F's recent S2 images (high production value magazine type stuff) processed with LR and they were pretty impressive. To some extent I think the relevance of the software is related to what you're shooting. Lately I do mostly people shooting and if I can get good skin tones from the software I've got most of what I'm looking for. If I were shooting architectural with wide angle lenses or using a tech camera I might feel otherwise... but that's not likely to be what the S2 buyer is going to shoot.

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Thanks David for the kind offer. At this point I am over my head and will leave the debate to the better qualified MF experts.
    Roger, I beg to differ with you on this one. You are just as much an expert as anyone in judging what "you" like in an image. You are fully qualified to judge similar images taken with different cameras and processed in different raw converters and decide which "you" prefer. Of course, you already know that and exercise that expertise on a regular basis.

    I agree with your approach to seek expert opinions and always try to learn and improve. I also know you are savvy enough to sort through the expert opinions, filter out their biases, motives, etc. and determine the merit of their opinion. Then, use all of this information as input to forming your personal opinion.

    In the end, the only opinion that matters is your own. That is true for amateur and professional alike. There is no single right opinion. Let's face it, there is so little difference in the printed image between the Leica, Phase One and Hasselblad that it boils down to personal preference for the tools and workflow used in making the image.

  9. #59
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Hard to tell what Leica is thinking but perhaps they feel that what can be achieved through LR is good enough... especially for what they perceive as their target market. I've seen some of David F's recent S2 images (high production value magazine type stuff) processed with LR and they were pretty impressive. To some extent I think the relevance of the software is related to what you're shooting. Lately I do mostly people shooting and if I can get good skin tones from the software I've got most of what I'm looking for. If I were shooting architectural with wide angle lenses or using a tech camera I might feel otherwise... but that's not likely to be what the S2 buyer is going to shoot.
    David

    You are of course correct. Start with what your needs are .

    Roger

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Guy

    I agree that a proprietary solution( incorporating as much of the conversion as possible) provides the best technical architecture ...it is not the only path to superior IQ. Look at C1 clearly not a proprietary solution for the M9 but still pretty darn good by most standards.

    MR had some terminology for this in his "best of breed" C1/LR workflow....but he found little difference in using C1 for a pretty basic raw conversion ...outputing a TIFF and then using LR for the rest. Plenty of examples of plugins or individual sharpening,noise reduction products that have strong followings.

    Leica had got excellent results with the DMR and M8/M9 working with smaller software firms that stayed focused on the Leica products. Those were not proprietary products in the same sense that you have with Phase backs and C1.

    Both Hasselblad and Phase are putting more and more into their raw conversion engine and the results are getting better. But...If you told me C1 was being tuned for the S2....I would be happy. Its hard to see Adobe doing the same unless a 3rd party "tuner" was involved . Time will tell.
    Good example of making Guy's point ... without a doubt in my mind what-so-ever, the DMR produced the best results with Imacon's Flexcolor software (as clunky as the workflow was) ... which was no surprise as Imacon was a proprietary player in the DMR hardware.

    Personally, I think you can do a decent S2 job with LR3 beta ... yet, for that kind of money and IQ potential one would expect very tuned software to extract all your money's worth NOW, not in the hazy distant future.

    -Marc

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Perhaps I come at this from a different perspective, but for me the overall workflow is more important than the last iota of image quality greater than 90% of the time. This is of course assuming the two programs are quite close in overall results, which has been my experience in the past with Capture One and Lightroom. I think the overall productivity of Lightroom as well as its tools for manipulating multiple images is more intuitive and more flexible than Capture One. It really depends on the type of photography you do. If every file you convert is going to be a 60x70 inch print or needs to be absolutely color matched (artwork reproduction, catalog etc), then I would rather trade the last 5% of ultimate quality than struggle with a more unwieldy interface. These backs and cameras are so good already that sometimes you just want to get a great image without spending your life at the computer, and I think this is the real advantage that a program like Lightroom brings. It gets you from A to B much faster and with less headaches. This is especially true if you are using multiple cameras and systems -- rather than learn to become an expert at C1, NX2, Canon Raw software, etc etc.
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  12. #62
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Good example of making Guy's point ... without a doubt in my mind what-so-ever, the DMR produced the best results with Imacon's Flexcolor software (as clunky as the workflow was) ... which was no surprise as Imacon was a proprietary player in the DMR hardware.

    Personally, I think you can do a decent S2 job with LR3 beta ... yet, for that kind of money and IQ potential one would expect very tuned software to extract all your money's worth NOW, not in the hazy distant future.

    -Marc
    Ok but what about the m8/M9 . The C1 software was developed to support the Phase Backs. Then if I understand it correctly they worked closely with Leica to support the M8.

    I do remember now that the DMR itself was developed as a digital back and to work with the Imacon software. I stand corrected.

    Its seems like there are really three possibilities for the software :

    1. The software and the sensor/processor are developed together .
    (e.g. Phase Backs and C1 ,Nikon D3 and nx2 ).

    2. A non proprietary solution (C1) works closely with the sensor/camera mfg to optimize the raw conversion.

    3. A non proprietary solution (LR,Aperture etc) incorporates profiles,presets etc into a generic product .


    Maybe 2 and 3 are the same but I thought the consensus was that C1 and the M9 was pretty darn good? I have a hard time believing that Adobe will spend any serious time on a limited edition like the S2 . Canon 5D2 yes Leica s2 ..hard to believe.

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Perhaps I come at this from a different perspective, but for me the overall workflow is more important than the last iota of image quality greater than 90% of the time. This is of course assuming the two programs are quite close in overall results, which has been my experience in the past with Capture One and Lightroom. I think the overall productivity of Lightroom as well as its tools for manipulating multiple images is more intuitive and more flexible than Capture One. It really depends on the type of photography you do. If every file you convert is going to be a 60x70 inch print or needs to be absolutely color matched (artwork reproduction, catalog etc), then I would rather trade the last 5% of ultimate quality than struggle with a more unwieldy interface. These backs and cameras are so good already that sometimes you just want to get a great image without spending your life at the computer, and I think this is the real advantage that a program like Lightroom brings. It gets you from A to B much faster and with less headaches. This is especially true if you are using multiple cameras and systems -- rather than learn to become an expert at C1, NX2, Canon Raw software, etc etc.
    That is exactly why I am an avid fan of Lightroom.

    Lightroom gave me back part of my life that was spent in front of a computer. Take the time to get a handle on it and it rewards you with being simply faster than anything else out there ... the newer tools added to the ability to selectively move back and forth into PSCS5 ... it sets the standard for workflow.

    This is especially true when working with multiple cameras.

    However, a good deal of my work with a MFD system is tethered ...

    And when I do use a MFD untethered it is for larger reproduction ...

    Horses-for-courses applies to software also.

    If I didn't do/need the 2 above ... I'd just use the Sony A900 ... which is faster and less headaches anyway.

    -Marc

  14. #64
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Stuart

    I agree with your observations about workflow and I am a very happy user of the LR3 beta. I am also happy with the IQ I get with the M9 and the D3x (my two primary systems) . I have seen best in class processing and without a doubt my skills(lack there of are the weak link). Where to spend a not unlimited amount of computer time? Learning multiple proprietary software products or mastering an integrated solution.

    But I think of MF as a commitment to the highest level of IQ. So in that context ..its worth noting that Phase and Hasselblad have a not insignificant advantage with proprietary software (for raw conversions) . Leica started out in a ditch without even reasonable profiles and thus magnified the gap . My probing was really to get at how this gap could be closed(assuming proprietary software isn t an option ) .

    Workflow is important its what keeps me in Lr3 even though I know C1 is better for conversions.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes and MR is using the most important part of C1 with his P65+ the dedication to that back. Than from there obviously you can tweak the Tif or whatever you need. But he is sucking all that dedication to raw process right off the bat.

    Yes time will tell.
    Guy

    I am agreeing with you on the best approach and the "most important part" as it relates to pure IQ .

    But C1 and the M9 is pretty good. Lr3 and the M9 is excellent as well.

    The S2 and Lr2 at launch was not so great IMHO.

    So while HB and Phase have an advantage ...the S2 has a handicap which can be improved upon from when you tested it. Like I mentioned before if you told me it was C1 and the S2 I wouldn t be concerned.

    Software is important ...Ok I agree with MF experts.

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Also, I should note that my greatest experience with proprietary software is through FlexColor (DMR and X5) and Sinar eXposure (E54LV)...if I could have used Lightroom for those files, I would have in a nanosecond! I realize C1 and Phocus are much better programs, but knowing how unwieldy eXposure and FlexColor can be makes you appreciate how well put together Lightroom, Aperture and the CS series are.
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Advantages of leaf shutter lenses:
    - sync with flash at high shutter speeds
    - less shutter bounce***

    Disadvantages of leaf shutter lenses:
    - larger/heavier physical lens design
    - added manufacturing expense
    - limited lifetime of each lens
    - limited maximum shutter speed
    - diffraction is shown at lower f-stops (minor difference)



    Doug,

    Have you not seen an H leaf shutter? It really is quite small! There is a picture of one in the article below.

    You also forgot to add...

    - More accurate exposure times and more even over the whole frame.

    - I would argue that there is certainly a difference in camera stability when firing the H leaf shutter compared to any focal plane, with the mirror locked.

    - As for a larger / heavier lens and the other - points... I would say you are clutching at straws.

    Lifetime.. The H leaf shutter has a recommended service interval of 100,000 exposures.

    Let say over five years (1825 days), you would need to shoot 55 exposures every single day to reach 100,000. It is extremely rare we ever receive lenses in for shutter servicing, unless they are used in situations like aerial photography.

    Also the service life is a safe figure, and it is likely you could get more than 200,000 actuations without issue. If you ran the shutter at 1/800s every single shot(!) then you are closer to 100,000.

    In this rather nice article you will also learn more about our leaf shutter (designed and built by us), how we exceed all the ISO standards regarding exposure and a side bar on True Exposure.

    http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1664...thighspeed.pdf

    David

  18. #68
    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    david, any news on the H4D60? when will it finally be out?
    peter

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    I have one with me this week, so will report back soon.

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    I have one with me this week, so will report back soon.
    ---)))) very curious. peter

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Have you not seen an H leaf shutter? It really is quite small! There is a picture of one in the article below.
    [...]
    - As for a larger / heavier lens and the other - points... I would say you are clutching at straws.

    Lifetime.. The H leaf shutter has a recommended service interval of 100,000 exposures.
    The weight/size of the shutter itself is not really the issue. Designing a lens around a lens-shutter requires a different design that most often ends up more than a little larger and heavier. Take for instance the difference in weight and size between the Phase One systems 80mm lenses: the leaf shutter lens version is 35% heavier and 20% larger.


    330g - Phase One 80mm D (f/2.8)
    450g - Phase One 80mm D Leaf-Shutter (f/2.8)
    475g - Hassy HC 80mm Leaf Shutter (f/2.8)

    495g - Phase One 45mm D (f/2.8)
    530g - Phase One 55mm D Leaf Shutter (f/2.8)
    975g - Hassy HC 50mm Leaf Shutter (f/3.5)

    For someone packing a body/back and 3-5 lenses for a landscape backpacking trip these weights can make a very large difference in their overall experience.

    [I'm thinking now I'm going to make a chart, so I'll spare the board from 10 more entries like the above]

    Actually as far as I can tell of the ten lenses for which there are near-equivalents between Phase/Schneider and Hassy/Fuji the Phase or Schneider lens is less heavy and smaller in almost every case. The 28mm lenses are an exception, but the Hasselblad 28mm does not cover a full-frame sensor/film and lenses for smaller formats are generally smaller.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post

    Let say over five years (1825 days), you would need to shoot 55 exposures every single day to reach 100,000. It is extremely rare we ever receive lenses in for shutter servicing, unless they are used in situations like aerial photography.
    We rent a lot of Phase One P30+ and Phase One P40+ on Hasselblad H2 bodies in Miami and I completely agree that the shutter life on these lenses is very good. It would not concern me one iota if I was buying a new HC lens); however, it will impact the used market especially in the long run of system ownership.

    Your other points are well taken and a great contribution to the pros and cons to each type of shutter. Having the ability to use either type of shutter in the Phase One DF body has only further exposed me to the benefits of using the right equipment for the right job, and I, like anyone else, am still learning .

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 1st June 2010 at 06:50.

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The weight/size of the shutter itself is not really the issue. Designing a lens around a lens-shutter requires a different design that most often ends up more than a little larger and heavier. Take for instance the difference in weight and size between the Phase One systems 80mm lenses: the leaf shutter lens version is 35% heavier and 20% larger.


    330g - Phase One 80mm D (f/2.8)
    450g - Phase One 80mm D Leaf-Shutter (f/2.8)
    475g - Hassy HC 80mm Leaf Shutter (f/2.8)

    495g - Phase One 45mm D (f/2.8)
    530g - Phase One 55mm D Leaf Shutter (f/2.8)
    975g - Hassy HC 50mm Leaf Shutter (f/3.5)
    You know what they say Doug. Plastic is lighter!

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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    You know what they say Doug. Plastic is lighter!
    Indeed.

    All the lenses I referenced are aluminum barreled.

    The older Mamiya Non-D lenses were plastic and the Phase One D and Schneider LS D are aluminum.

    That's one of the reasons why the Mamiya 80mm Non-D (plastic) is lighter than the Phase One 80mm D (aluminum) and the Mamiya 45mm non-D (plastic) is marginally lighter than the Phase One 45mm D (aluminum).

    The plastic casings on the older Mamiya lenses is one of the things I did not like about them and I was glad to see this changed when Phase One and Schneider developed new lenses for the system. For the value hunter the older lenses are fantastically priced given their pretty good performance. The older Mamiya lenses are not as solid feeling, and are not as wickedly sharp as the new Phase One / Schneider lenses but they are also a fraction of the price.

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  24. #74
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    Re: Almost ready to take the plunge..

    ok david..what's up with the 60?

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