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Thread: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

  1. #51
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    So, is it a consensus the 2nd generation e75lv's high ISO is as good as P30+ and H3DII-31 ?

  2. #52
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    So, is it a consensus the 2nd generation e75lv's high ISO is as good as P30+ and H3DII-31 ?
    I agree totally.
    As good or better as any of the other high-end backs!

    Now,I would like to see, 30 seconds @ 800 ASA.

    That would interest me even more.

    Cheers,

    Willem.

  3. #53
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    As good or better as any of the other high-end backs!
    I've avoided using anything but ISO 100 on a June2007-vintage e75lv.
    so if true, that's quite a turnabout Sinar has achieved.

    Let's see if others here agree. P30+ & H3DII-31 users, please chime in.
    Last edited by BJNY; 2nd May 2008 at 17:12.

  4. #54
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I don't know Aperture, Billy, no experience with it at all.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thierry,
    Is there any advantage gained from processing the DNG in eXposure as opposed to Aperture, etc.

  5. #55
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Billy,

    ACR, LR, Raw Developer, Aperture, etc ... are DNG compatible softwares to post-process the files: eXposure is a capturing software and DNG Converter (writer), which does not pretend to have all the tools those DNG applications have.

    Have to go and catch my flight now,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Sinar AG must have a stance
    whether or not processing in eXposure will yield superior results
    compared to AR, Aperture, Lightroom, etc.

  6. #56
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Wow....something strange here. I was reading Thierry's replies to Billy's questions in posts #54 and #55, and realized that there was no post for Billy's questions to begin with that show up in this thread. I noticed the same thing when Guy replied to some posted question....the original question/post was not there either. Am I hallucinating, or did some posts accidentally get trashed? (I checked, and no, I do not have anybody's posts in "ignore" mode.) Anybody else notice this? Wonder if something got lost when Guy and Jack moved things, or something to consolidate the original threads....hmmm.

    LJ

  7. #57
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    This sample is impressive, Thierry. Thanks for posting the DNG.

  8. #58
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    You're not hallucinating, LJL.
    I was in the process of making some revisions when Thierry quoted me,
    so I saw no need in keeping my original post.
    Thanks. I thought that could have been a possibility, but had to ask, since it all seemed so strange to see a reply to a question that was no longer there

    LJ

  9. #59
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I did not delete anything I hope.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #60
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    now, if you could just get that bacxk a bit SMALLER.....
    My wish is for the 2nd Generation e75lv to capture faster than 1 frame every 1.5 seconds.
    Leaf's Aptus 75S / AFi-7 can do one frame every 1.1 seconds, a huge difference when photographing people.

  11. #61
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Now,I would like to see, 30 seconds @ 800 ASA.
    I originally asked for long exposure as well,
    but I prefer seeing it at ISO 100.

    Also would be curious to know
    how soon after the 30 second exposure is the digital back ready to make another capture.
    (Is there a wait for some sort of automatic black reference exposure to be made immediately afterwards?)

    Lastly, will Thierry use the self-timer after locking up the mirror
    since there are no electronic cable releases available, yet?
    Or, can the triggering be via the computer when tethered?
    Last edited by BJNY; 2nd May 2008 at 18:35.

  12. #62
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I did not delete anything I hope.
    Guy,
    Please excuse any inference. I was certainly NOT accusing you of deleting anything. I was merely wondering if there could have been some unforeseen glitch, or whether the quote came from some other thread or something. Billy got us straightened out on it, so all is good

    LJ

  13. #63
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    No No needed to know if I did by accident. Thanks

    I did all this before the 1st cup of mud went down. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #64
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    My question is,as I shoot a lot of dim lit area's,would I be better of using 800ASA,
    to achieve a shorter exposure time,or keep it at 100ASA and expose 30 seconds or less.
    Sometimes I find 30 seconds is not long enough!
    Any body any idea's?
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  15. #65
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    So, have checked in, waiting my flight now.

    Your questions Billy:

    - long exposure 30 sec.: will do, Billy, but not this week anymore, and probably not next as well.

    - the waiting time is about the same as the exposure time for the black reference to be written: no secret in this.

    - it can be triggered via eXposure, in Slave mode, of course.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    I originally asked for long exposure as well,
    but I prefer seeing it at ISO 100.

    Also would be curious to know
    how soon after the 30 second exposure is the digital back ready to make another capture.
    (Is there a wait for some sort of automatic black reference exposure to be made immediately afterwards?)

    Lastly, will Thierry use the self-timer after locking up the mirror
    since there are no electronic cable releases available, yet?
    Or, can the triggering be via the computer when tethered?

  16. #66
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I used to have better result by using a lower ISO and longer exposure time, but that has to be checked with this new sensor board in the eMotion backs.

    However: it also depends on the ambient temperature when your are shooting: my guess (but it's only a guess) is, that it will give a better result with ISO 800 at 4 sec. than at ISO 100 with 30 sec. WHEN the temperature is around or above 30C. But I could be wrong.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    My question is,as I shoot a lot of dim lit area's,would I be better of using 800ASA,
    to achieve a shorter exposure time,or keep it at 100ASA and expose 30 seconds or less.
    Sometimes I find 30 seconds is not long enough!
    Any body any idea's?
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  17. #67
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I downloaded the RAW, and it is very impressive. I've frequently heard people say that one reason they shoot 35mm digital is because the larger formats have inadequate high ISO performance. This single file debunks that for me. Holds up well to pushing a full two stops in Raw Developer. Regards, Amin

  18. #68
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Hi Thierry,
    I'll wait till I get my e-75 back back from Sinar.
    It would be better to test for my own situations and find out that way.
    Thanks for all the hard work and I'm glad I made the right choice with the Hy6 and the
    second generation e-75LV.
    It's best suited for my shooting style.
    And for the hardcore wide,I'll whip the Alpa out!
    Best,
    Willem.

  19. #69
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    You're welcome Willem!

    Thierry



    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Hi Thierry,
    I'll wait till I get my e-75 back back from Sinar.
    It would be better to test for my own situations and find out that way.
    Thanks for all the hard work and I'm glad I made the right choice with the Hy6 and the
    second generation e-75LV.
    It's best suited for my shooting style.
    And for the hardcore wide,I'll whip the Alpa out!
    Best,
    Willem.

  20. #70
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Hmmm....Is anyone else unable to open Thierry's DNG in eXposure?
    I downloaded the DNG several times, but can't get eXposure to even see it.

  21. #71
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry, would it be okay if I upload the full-size conversions done by Raw Developer (Mac only application) for others to download? Regards, Amin

  22. #72
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry is most likely on a plane at the moment. But I can't see why not the image is a test image for all to see anyway.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  23. #73
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry is on the ground already,
    and is probably being water-tortured to find out what Sinar has planned for Photokina.

  24. #74
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thanks Guy and BJNY.

    Click here for 30MB file containing the 0, +1, and +2EV (ISO 800-3200 equivalent) full-res JPEGs converted in Raw Developer in a ZIP file along with a note explaining the processing settings.

    Click here for an ISO 6400 equivalent (ISO 800 pushed to +3EV) file, noise reduced and downsized to match the diagonal dimension of the Nikon D3 files (along with a note explaining the processing settings.

    I like using Raw Developer because it does a "straight", dcraw-like conversion. I didn't work too hard to make the colors perfect. Just wanted to see what the files look like, and I am extremely impressed with the high ISO performance here.

  25. #75
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    Thanks Guy and BJNY.
    What did I do?

  26. #76
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I asked Thierry a question, and you told me where he was .

  27. #77
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Sure, no problem.

    go ahead.

    Thierrry

    Addendum: too late, you've already done it!




    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    Thierry, would it be okay if I upload the full-size conversions done by Raw Developer (Mac only application) for others to download? Regards, Amin
    Last edited by thsinar; 3rd May 2008 at 06:47.

  28. #78
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thanks Thierry, even though I've already done it . I would have taken them down quick if you said so.

  29. #79
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    That's nice, to have done this work: the ISO 6400 looses/clips a bit in the highlights, but still ....

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    Thanks Thierry, even though I've already done it . I would have taken them down quick if you said so.

  30. #80
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    That's nice, to have done this work: the ISO 6400 looses/clips a bit in the highlights, but still ....
    I hope others find it interesting. Of course the file wasn't meant to be pushed 3 full stops, so the highlight clipping is understandable. It's the "but still..." part that is really impressive .

  31. #81
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry,
    I dread using a June2007-vintage e-75lv at ISO 200,
    so do you know how Sinar achieved this new level of high ISO performance?
    It seems as good/better than with 31MP micro-lensed sensor.
    Billy

  32. #82
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    New sensor board, that's what I was told: I know that it is little information, but they don't tell me all!



    Why not upgrade your "June '07" vintage? That will be possible starting June, at an attractive price.

    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thierry,
    I dread using a June2007-vintage e-75lv at ISO 200,
    so do you know how Sinar achieved this new level of high ISO performance?
    It seems as good/better than with 31MP micro-lensed sensor.
    Billy

  33. #83
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    New sensor board, that's what I was told: I know that it is little information, but they don't tell me all!



    Why not upgrade your "June '07" vintage? That will be possible starting June, at an attractive price.

    Thierry
    I will strongly recommend the upgrade to the owner (not me).

  34. #84
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I find it interesting!



    What is of big help for me is to see how much information is in such a file, when one knows that it is under-exposed by about 2-stops and this at ISO 800.
    Some little twicking in ACR/Aperture/LR or Raw Developer, and you are saved.

    I was honestly not expecting this, when starting my test, rather something like a "usable" ISO 800 image.

    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    I hope others find it interesting. Of course the file wasn't meant to be pushed 3 full stops, so the highlight clipping is understandable. It's the "but still..." part that is really impressive .

  35. #85
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry, I know you're busy, but whenever you're able to,
    I'd like to see what ISO 800 looks like with models
    (e.g. as how James would use : http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=193058
    and http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=193000 )

  36. #86
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    oh, I am not at all a model shooter, and certainly not at the level of James!

    Will have to find somebody else.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thierry, I know you're busy, but whenever you're able to,
    I'd like to see what ISO 800 looks like with models
    (e.g. as how James would use : http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=193058
    and http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=193000 )

  37. #87
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thierry, I know you're busy, but whenever you're able to,
    I'd like to see what ISO 800 looks like with models
    (e.g. as how James would use : http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=193058
    and http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=193000 )
    Billy,
    I will try to do this for you on my next model shoot but please do not expect the level from James.

  38. #88
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry,
    Thanks for making the RAW file available. I downloaded it and was impressed with the low noise. I noticed in the metadata that this was converted via brumbaer tools to dng. Why not the Exposure and sorry hope this is not too big a question but what happens to the file on the way to DNG? To me it looked like some processing had already occurred. Thanks,
    Eric

  39. #89
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry and David K,
    It needn't be with "models", sorry.
    A simple portrait by windowlight would suffice.
    Billy

  40. #90
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    New sensor board, that's what I was told: I know that it is little information, but they don't tell me all!
    Here are some 100% crops from the file after it has been pushed to ISO 6400 equivalent and resized to the native size of a Nikon D3 image:









    I realize the Sinar and the Nikon don't serve remotely the same purpose, but
    from a technology standpoint it was only a matter of time before the larger digital formats took the lead in low light performance. Seems that time has come.

  41. #91
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I'm surprised that I can't see the original DNG file with Capture One Pro version 3.7.7.223 while I can open it with Photoshop Elements 4.0

  42. #92
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Bondo
    i also couldnt open with 3.78 but C1 version 4 DID open a file that Graham sent me. try that.

    Amin,

    what file did you use? I would like to try. I must say, if you 'pushed' a file exposed at 800 to get 3 more stops (ev - 3.0 setting) that would be quite amazing. If I didnt see your file I wouldnt believe it.

    I am also amazed that the difference between 7/-7 and 4/08 back based on a board (that is NON SENSOR improvement ) could be that dramatic.

    As a long Phase (P25, P45 and P45+) user, I never saw this level of improvement or performace. If you look at foto-z 400 max thread I tried some noise reduction of 800 iso with P45+ and it doers clean up; however the raw files have a lot of noise-well behaved noise, but noise nontheless.

    The possibility to walk into a dark cathedrale and click away at 5.6 at 1/60 (800 and EV - 3.0) would be a dramatic difference from noisy 5.6 and 1/3s

    Victor

  43. #93
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Amin,

    what file did you use? I would like to try. I must say, if you 'pushed' a file exposed at 800 to get 3 more stops (ev - 3.0 setting) that would be quite amazing. If I didnt see your file I wouldnt believe it.

    I am also amazed that the difference between 7/-7 and 4/08 back based on a board (that is NON SENSOR improvement ) could be that dramatic.
    Hi Victor,

    Just to be clear, I pushed the ISO 800 DNG by three full stops in Raw Developer and converted to TIFF using default settings other than custom WB. Then imported into PS CS3, applied Noise Ninja (auto profile, default settings, 65% sharpen during noise reduction), downsized to match the diagonal dimension of a Nikon D3 file (ie downsampled to 12 MP), and sharpened (Smart Sharpen, amount 60%, radius 0.3). What I showed above were 100% crops from the processed, downsized image.

    Here's a screenshot, not resized, from the file at 100% as it's being processed in Raw Developer at +3EV before Noise Ninja or downsizing:



    The DNG file I used was downloaded from Thierry's FTP when he made it available earlier in this thread. I've uploaded for you in case it's not there any more.

    Original ISO 800 DNG file

    Native size 0, +1, and +2 EV JPEG conversions with no Noise Ninja

    Downsampled +3EV conversion with Noise Ninja applied

    Regards,
    Amin
    Last edited by asabet; 3rd May 2008 at 15:19.

  44. #94
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Dear Amin,

    yes, I understand you did in raw, but sort of equivalent at capture if you 'push' by adjustibg exposure 3 stops.

    I want to see what the raw looks like. At the risk of repeat, here is what Noiseware PRO does at default (100percent crop, on screen, not resized) iso 800 P45+

    so if combo of iso, ev adjust and noise reduction gets reasonable (say up to 16x20) then that is a BIG improvement

    These shot is 1/3s need 1/30-1/60 even WA to get a reasonable shot and 5.6 MINIMUM for DOF

    regards
    Victor
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:22.

  45. #95
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I see what you mean Victor. This does seem like an unreal improvement, particularly since the sensor has not been replaced. All of these cameras and backs are out of my league. I was just interested to look at the file since I've always been told that high ISO performance was a weakness of digital medium format. I'm interested to hear what you think after you've had a chance to look at Thierry's RAW file linked above. Regards, Amin

  46. #96
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    hi Eric,

    as explained, Brumbaer does allow to use colour matrices and to make one's own colour calibration which gives a better colour rendition as in eXposure currently. Look at Graham's "ISO 400" sample to have an idea how it affects the colours in the shadows.

    Other than this, there is a "Centerfold" correction applied (as well in eXposure), a highlight recovery takes place (as well in eXposure), and the Ref. File of the particular back is applied (as well in exosure), nothing else: there is for instance no noise reduction or such taking place.

    This being said, I think anyway that whatever "happens" during the conversion, either in eXposure or else, doesn't really matter, but to know WHAT is available in the file and what can be done with it, that's what really matters, IMO. I remind also, that the shot was taken at ISO 800 with 1/40 sec. and f 5.6, and that it cannot be considered as a long exposure ISO 800 file: it was not dark like may be in Victor's situation and there was light available, though in the very early morning with just some light rays hitting the subject from a flat angle.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Thierry,
    Thanks for making the RAW file available. I downloaded it and was impressed with the low noise. I noticed in the metadata that this was converted via brumbaer tools to dng. Why not the Exposure and sorry hope this is not too big a question but what happens to the file on the way to DNG? To me it looked like some processing had already occurred. Thanks,
    Eric
    Last edited by thsinar; 3rd May 2008 at 18:44.

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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Amin,

    Thanks for taking the time to do this work and sharing the results. Of course, thanks too to Thierry for taking them. This seems to me a remarkable improvement over previous generation backs, at least the ones I've been using. Typically I don't have the need to shoot at the higher ISO levels but, as Victor says, it does open up interesting possibilities.

  48. #98
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thanks too, Amin, for your work and time, appreciated.

    It is definitively a huge improvement having taken place with this new sensor board in the Sinar eMotion 75: I am getting feedback from other users who praise this new achievement.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Amin,
    Thanks for taking the time to do this work and sharing the results. Of course, thanks too to Thierry for taking them. This seems to me a remarkable improvement over previous generation backs, at least the ones I've been using.

  49. #99
    asabet
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    David and Thierry, it was my pleasure. Thierry, thanks for letting us play with the RAW file and congratulations on this development. Regards, Amin

  50. #100
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Dear Amin

    I did open the file in C1 version 4 (whatever they are callingit) and the files are remarkable. I 'pushed' only 2.5 ev but still, Thierry you guys have something here.
    Very little noise even at 100% and pushed.

    WARNING: C1 4 will put in MASSIVE amounts of NR, so that the image looks like 'paintbynumbers' Take all the NR off, and you will see it is NOT necessary!
    now, about that design and color...

    Regards
    Victor

    PS I got lazy and just 'hypersnapped it only wanted to show the basic NO NR 100% filewith everything zero in C1 4 this is 2.5 PLUS about another 1-2 EV in the histogram, really!
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:22.

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