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Thread: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

  1. #1
    thsinar
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    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples

    Dear all,

    on request of some, asking for images taken at ISO 800 with the Sinar eMotion 75, I have taken a shot this early morning, during sunrise.
    The result is an image, at ISO 800, purposely under-exposed and chosen due to its high-contrast.

    Shooting data:

    - Camera: Sinar Hy6
    - Lens: Zeiss Planar 110mm/f2
    - ISO 800
    - Aperture: f5.6
    - Exposure: 1/40

    In the following screenshots it does show first the image as shot, when the eXposure DNG is opened in ACR, WITHOUT grey balance, then opened in PS without any correction:

    Pic 1

    The next screenshot (Pic1') shows the image after a grey balance.

    The next 3 screenshots show the entire image with its R, G & B channels (Pic 2, 3 & 4).

    The next screenshots show 100% details of this image, with the respective R, G & B channels at 100% (Pic 5 to 16) = 3 different details (shadows, highlights & mid-tones).

    The next image shows when opened in PS, AFTER corrections done in ACR (Pic "ISO800_ACR_Correct"), and opened in PS (Pic "ISO800_PS_Correct").

    From this corrected image, the same 100% details are shown with their R, G & B channels (Pic 18 to 29).

    Finally, the last image is a JPG finished file, to give an better idea than the attached screenshots.

    Please note:

    - I have had some "problems" 2 days ago, when posting my "Orchid" images. The images did not correspond exactly in terms of contrast and saturation, despite having tried with Adobe 98 and then with sRGB assigned. So I am not sure what the colors and the contrast/saturation will look like. I am not sure if a big difference will be seen between the grey-balanced image and the one not, etc ... in the screenshots attached.

    - I can however provide the original files on request.

    - I have to post this in different posts, being limited to 5 attachments each time.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Last edited by thsinar; 1st May 2008 at 22:01.

  2. #2
    thsinar
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    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    first screenshots

  3. #3
    thsinar
    Guest

    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (3)

    screenshots with detail 100% (1)

  4. #4
    thsinar
    Guest

    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (4)

    Details 100% (2)

  5. #5
    thsinar
    Guest

    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (5)

    Detail 100% (3)

  6. #6
    thsinar
    Guest

    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (6)

    Corrected Image: ACR settings and PS

  7. #7
    thsinar
    Guest

    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (7)

    Detail 100% Corrected Image (1)

  8. #8
    thsinar
    Guest

    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (8)

    Detail 100% Corrected Image (2)

  9. #9
    thsinar
    Guest

    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (9)

    Detail 100% Corrected Image (3)

  10. #10
    thsinar
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    ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (10)

    Finally, here the corrected, sharpened image.

    NB: it took me barely 1 hour to take out the camera, to shoot, to download, to analyze, process and prepare the different images.

    The longest part was the uploading here.

    .... and waking up at 6.00 am was like a nightmare!



    I hope this will help to give an idea, of what is ISO 800 with an eMotion 75.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    PS: and as "feared", the JPG here does not match with the original (contrast/saturation)
    ---> see screenshot in tread N 6 to see the real original corrected.
    Last edited by thsinar; 1st May 2008 at 21:59.

  11. #11
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (10)

    Hi Thierry,
    that is a very good 800 ASA,certainly less grain(noise) that Provia 400 + 1 would give.
    Very encouraging.
    Now we need a 30 second exposure at 800 ASA.
    Can we arrange that as well?
    Cheers,
    Willem.
    N.B I can't do it myself ,as my eMotion is in Switzerland for the larger TFT screen swap!

  12. #12
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (10)

    I can (planed) to do this, but it will take a bit longer: am leaving tomorrow for a week on a business trip. And I have to find a nice night-scene.

    Cheers too,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Hi Thierry,
    Now we need a 30 second exposure at 800 ASA.

    Willem.

  13. #13
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (10)

    That looks really good at ISO 800. I can't get near that with the ZD
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #14
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (10)

    That's PERFECT, Guy, and I couldn't ask for more!



    Thank you,
    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thierry waiting for Jack to come alive here but we may put your posts together for you so you don't have to jump from each thread. Is that okay

  15. #15
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (10)

    Thanks Guy and Jack!

    Yes, the order would be important: starting with 1 at the top (to give people the opportunity to read the shooting conditions) down to 10.

    that would be great.

    BTW: I forgot to add one important shooting Data, the temperature (Gogopix reminded me in another post!): concerning noise this is very relevant. Unfortunately I cannot edit my post anymore to add it: any possibility? It was 31C at 6.30 this morning.

    Thanks
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay we will merge them up. Any order you would like to have them

  16. #16
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples

    Guy, that is perfect, that way. They are in the right order, that's the most important.

    Thanks,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thierry i will use this as the base thread just tell me the order and will move them than delete posts like this so it flows better for you

  17. #17
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thanks Thierry . Just so folks know i merged all of Thierry's post into one thread for ease of use . Please continue on and we will try to cleanup the redirected threads on the board when Jack comes on. I have a trigger finger and afraid i will just screw something up on that part on the admin page. Thanks Guy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #18
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Don't you touch anything, with your finger, Guy!!!



    Thanks and sorry for having given such a work, with all these posts, but I didn't want to just post a sample of an image without any explanation and as such, that tells nothing. That way all can see and understand the process.

    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Thierry . Just so folks know i merged all of Thierry's post into one thread for ease of use . Please continue on and we will try to cleanup the redirected threads on the board when Jack comes on. I have a trigger finger and afraid i will just screw something up on that part on the admin page. Thanks Guy

  19. #19
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Next time you can make your first post with five images than do a new reply and repeat with 5 more. You can just keep going like that under the same thread until you wear yourself out.

    Just a note of thanks also for this data . This is great stuff for us users to see and hopefully understand these backs better.


    I do have a question and i would assume the other Sinar backs would perform like this as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  20. #20
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Don't you touch anything, with your finger, Guy!!!



    Thanks and sorry for having given such a work, with all these posts, but I didn't want to just post a sample of an image without any explanation and as such, that tells nothing. That way all can see and understand the process.

    Thierry
    Thanks Thierry, very useful information and appreciate all the effort.

    One thing I noticed however is that even though you posted 100% crops, they really aren't 100% since they've been further reduced to 900 pixels wide from your larger resolution mac screen so they're probably closer to 50% crops in reality. It would be very useful if you could post the actual dng file so others could look more deeply into the files. If you don't have a way to directly host them you might want to check out http://www.mediafire.com/ since they provide free hosting without all the silly restrictions of something like yousendit.

    Thanks,

    Greg

  21. #21
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Dear Greg,

    yes, agree of course, and they are screenshots.

    That's why I said that I can provide the DNG file, no problem at all and nothing to be hidden: I can also host it on my ftp.

    I'll put it straight away and should be uploaded in about 20 minutes from now.

    Access to my ftp:

    ftp.sinar.ch
    user name = HG
    password = YSV3UD

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Thanks Thierry, very useful information and appreciate all the effort.

    One thing I noticed however is that even though you posted 100% crops, they really aren't 100% since they've been further reduced to 900 pixels wide from your larger resolution mac screen so they're probably closer to 50% crops in reality. It would be very useful if you could post the actual dng file so others could look more deeply into the files. If you don't have a way to directly host them you might want to check out http://www.mediafire.com/ since they provide free hosting without all the silly restrictions of something like yousendit.

    Thanks,

    Greg

  22. #22
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Great this could lead to trouble looking at these
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  23. #23
    AlaBill
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry...

    Many, many thanks to you for all the effort you went through to provide us with this info.

    Guy and Jack...

    Thanks especially to you guys for making this forum the "go to" forum for medium format. Seems like old times on the Fredmiranda board and the early DMR threads. Only problem is that those threads cost me a lot of money.

    I think we need a header or pop-up that opens when you select the medium format forum. It should say...

    BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID!!!

  24. #24
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    little trouble, Guy, it is "this": there is only one DNG to look at.



    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ... trouble looking at these

  25. #25
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I'm a dead man. I can feel my wife grabbing my wallet from me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  26. #26
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaBill View Post
    Thierry...

    Many, many thanks to you for all the effort you went through to provide us with this info.

    Guy and Jack...

    Thanks especially to you guys for making this forum the "go to" forum for medium format. Seems like old times on the Fredmiranda board and the early DMR threads. Only problem is that those threads cost me a lot of money.

    I think we need a header or pop-up that opens when you select the medium format forum. It should say...

    BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID!!!
    Yes we need a pop up warning.

    BTW thanks for those comments. Jack and i really would like to make the MF forum grow. There really are some very smart and very nice folks here and the information is priceless. So please if you know someone that would enjoy our style of learning and sharing than please invite them.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  27. #27
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    little trouble, Guy, it is "this": there is only one DNG to look at.



    Thierry
    Hell I moved so many threads this morning , i can't count. That was on one cup of coffee. Need two to really warm up the engine.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  28. #28
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    ... I'm still drinking coffee, Guy, after this morning posts, and it's 9.30 pm here in Bangkok!



    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hell I moved so many threads this morning , i can't count. That was on one cup of coffee. Need two to really warm up the engine.

  29. #29
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Can't you just delete those "Moved" threads?
    They're just taking up space.

  30. #30
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm a dead man. I can feel my wife grabbing my wallet from me.
    Guy,
    You may not be alone with this problem

    Thanks for cleaning up Thierry's great posts into one thread. I was jumping across things last night, and got lost a few times

    Thierry, thanks ever so much for taking the time and effort to post these. I must say that from what I am seeing, the Sinarback at ISO 800 is pretty impressive at this point, and much better than I expected to see.

    (There may be a problem trying to access your ftp server.....either I am jumping the gun because the file is not yet posted, or we may need some other piece of info to get to it. My browser (Safari) keeps telling me that I do not have permission to attach to your Mac HD. Will try going in with an ftp client tool instead.)

    Yes...that worked. Folks will need to use an FTP tool (e.g. Transmit or others) to directly attach to your server to get the 45.08MB file, rather than trying to come through a browser.

    LJ

  31. #31
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Can't you just delete those "Moved" threads?
    They're just taking up space.
    Billy that is on the admin page and I need Jack's help there . If i hit a thread that was moved and try to manage it and hit delete it may take it from the main thread I moved it too. We are getting there it's only 7:30 in California for Jack.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  32. #32
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Thanks for cleaning up Thierry's great posts into one thread. I was jumping across things last night, and got lost a few times
    MY mess!

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Thierry, thanks ever so much for taking the time and effort to post these. I must say that from what I am seeing, the Sinarback at ISO 800 is pretty impressive at this point, and much better than I expected to see.
    You're welcome, not a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    (There may be a problem trying to access your ftp server.....either I am jumping the gun because the file is not yet posted, or we may need some other piece of info to get to it. My browser (Safari) keeps telling me that I do not have permission to attach to your Mac HD. Will try going in with an ftp client tool instead.)
    It SHOULD work: I have many friends using this ftp. It is at Sinar and should pose no problem. Anyway, with a client ftp like "Captain FTP", etc ... it must work as well: I'm sending files almost every day.

    If you have still problems, let me know and we shall find another way.
    Thierry

  33. #33
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    MY mess!

    Nobody is complaining over your great effort here I was just excited to see the details that I kept wanting to jump back and forth. All is good now.

    You're welcome, not a big deal.



    It SHOULD work: I have many friends using this ftp. It is at Sinar and should pose no problem. Anyway, with a client ftp like "Captain FTP", etc ... it must work as well: I'm sending files almost every day.

    If you have still problems, let me know and we shall find another way.
    Thierry
    Thierry,
    I used my ftp client (Transmit) which is like CuteFTP, or Captain FTP, or others, and that works perfectly for attaching to your server to download. I may have some of my settings in Safari configured funny or something, but using an FTP client tool is no problem at all and works perfectly. Thanks again for your effort.

    LJ

  34. #34
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Great!

    You're welcome,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Thierry,
    I used my ftp client (Transmit) which is like CuteFTP, or Captain FTP, or others, and that works perfectly for attaching to your server to download. I may have some of my settings in Safari configured funny or something, but using an FTP client tool is no problem at all and works perfectly. Thanks again for your effort.

    LJ

  35. #35
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Billy that is on the admin page and I need Jack's help there . If i hit a thread that was moved and try to manage it and hit delete it may take it from the main thread I moved it too. We are getting there it's only 7:30 in California for Jack.
    I would also like the ability to edit posts indefinitely,
    rather than having a time limit,
    usually to refine my grammar.

  36. #36
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    ME TOO, especially when being a French like me!!! I always find the typo mistakes AFTER having hit!

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    I would also like the ability to edit posts indefinitely,
    rather than having a time limit,
    usually to refine my grammar.

  37. #37
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Thierry,

    Thanks for your efforts here. I will have to try some higher ISO and longer exposure time shots myself, until now only using ISO 100. BTW, do you find your EXIF data to be correct.

  38. #38
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Well, I took a quick look at the DNG file in both ACR/PS and Aperture. Incredible stuff for ISO 800. What little noise shows up in the deep shadows has a very fine grained film look to it, so it is very acceptable and pleasing. This is impressive.

    Just for the record, the conversion looks good in ACR, but it looks better in Aperture. I know I may be a bit biased there, but if you have both, you will see the difference. Aperture tends to reduce the noise grain to a very pleasing appearance, and still holds up well at Thierry's posted boosts (about one stop for Exposure, and maybe another for Brightness). In fact, things hold up very nicely with a full 2-stop exposure increase or more to pull up the shadows. This is a very nice and quite robust file that can take a lot of adjustment. Wish I had this much flexibility in my 1DsMkII files, but they are not even close in that regard. My quick eyeball estimate would be that this Sinar file at ISO 800 has less noise than what I normally see from my 1DsMkII files at ISO 800. Very impressive.

    That "bad" feeling is coming over me again....may have to start selling lots of stuff to add one of these to the kit.

    LJ

  39. #39
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    I'm not familiar at all with Aperture, but your findings makes me eager to try it. Thanks to share.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Just for the record, the conversion looks good in ACR, but it looks better in Aperture. I know I may be a bit biased there, but if you have both, you will see the difference. Aperture tends to reduce the noise grain to a very pleasing appearance, and still holds up well at Thierry's posted boosts (about one stop for Exposure, and maybe another for Brightness).
    LJ

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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    I would also like the ability to edit posts indefinitely,
    rather than having a time limit,
    usually to refine my grammar.
    Well there are several extremely good reasons for this and almost all forums are the same in this respect. But that is OT for this thread.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  41. #41
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    BTW i used Fetch to get it on my Mac. well check it out or maybe i should just let it sit there. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  42. #42
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    let it sit, Guy, it can only become riper!



    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW i used Fetch to get it on my Mac. well check it out or maybe i should just let it sit there. LOL

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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Guy and Jack...

    Thanks especially to you guys for making this forum the "go to" forum for medium format. Seems like old times on the Fredmiranda board and the early DMR threads. Only problem is that those threads cost me a lot of money.

    I think we need a header or pop-up that opens when you select the medium format forum. It should say...

    BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID!!!
    For sure on the dangerous territory warning.

    Thanks for the kind words! Yes, we're trying hard to get the old style of discussion back in place and so far we seem to be doing pretty good But the truth is, it is the outstanding participant base here at GetDPI that makes it work so well... So in truth, it is us who need to thank all of you. So THANK YOU!

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  44. #44
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW i used Fetch to get it on my Mac. well check it out or maybe i should just let it sit there. LOL
    Guy,
    Thierry is correct....you may want to hold off a bit, as impulse could easily overtake any remaining rational sanity you might have

    What impresses me quite a bit is just how much this file can be pushed around with corrections. You can get it to look ugly, meaning blotchy noise, blocked up shadows, etc., but you will be setting controls way off the charts to get there, for the most part, and then it still does not look bad.

    I noticed that this had gone through the Brumbear application, and am not sure what differences that may make, and if eXposure from Sinar has these baked in now, but it is nice. It looks a couple stops or more underexposed, so you will have to push to open things up, but it holds up nicely.

    Yep...lock down your credit cards and wallet, Guy, this is going to make you drool

    LJ

  45. #45
    thsinar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Yes LJ, this file can be pushed a lot: when I shot it his morning, I did purposely under-expose (as you say, by at least one stop), to see how far I can go with it. I was surprised myself, to be honest. And I did only very quick and "dirty" corrections, am sure that one can get out even more of it.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post

    What impresses me quite a bit is just how much this file can be pushed around with corrections. You can get it to look ugly, meaning blotchy noise, blocked up shadows, etc., but you will be setting controls way off the charts to get there, for the most part, and then it still does not look bad.

    It looks a couple stops or more underexposed, so you will have to push to open things up, but it holds up nicely.



    LJ
    Last edited by thsinar; 2nd May 2008 at 09:02.

  46. #46
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Ah crap i looked at it, I am starting to scratch now. Seriously though at ISO 800 that is just flat out damn good. I cannot even come close with the ZD ISO 200 is about really the tops for it but there is also a big price difference to and like anything else you get what you pay for it. But the good part is we are certainly above the 35mm curve
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  47. #47
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    For sure on the dangerous territory warning.

    Thanks for the kind words! Yes, we're trying hard to get the old style of discussion back in place and so far we seem to be doing pretty good But the truth is, it is the outstanding participant base here at GetDPI that makes it work so well... So in truth, it is us who need to thank all of you. So THANK YOU!

    Cheers,
    My thoughts exactly well said partner. BTW thanks for cleaning up the MF section.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  48. #48
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    Should we start a pool to see how long before someone buys? I'm betting on Guy in 14 days.

    I've got to stop day dreaming about one of these, and get some work done.

    Great forum.

    Best,

    Mitchell
    Tell me about it , i am getting nothing done .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #49
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    well, I just checked back at some of my P45+ ISO 800 shots, and not a one is usable.
    in my Hy6 vs H3D, there of course is also the HB CF option (or what ever its called for the H2)
    but these are impressive.

    now, if you could just get that bacxk a bit SMALLER.....

  50. #50
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    Re: ISO 800 - some Sinar eMotion 75 samples (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    there of course is also the HB CF option (or what ever its called for the H2)
    Except, presently there's no 31MP high ISO option in the CF lineup, is there?

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