Sensor Plus, what's the fuss?

[tashley]

I've heard a lot about how great sensor plus is and this evening I gave it a very thorough workout for the first time. Not impressed. You get a file dimension about the same size as an M9 but to my eye it is noisy, really artifacty, and about 25% of the time at ISO 800+ for no apparent reason has the sort of banding you need to push a 5DII to 6400 to provoke. The usual question is, has Tim bought another pup, or are they all like this? If they are, then I agree that for FFMF it's not too bad but it doesn't really inspire me to use it for anything serious at all...

Samples (90% quality JPEG, full scene then 100% crop, fairly correctly exposed and with no adjustments in C1 other than WB):

 

[DougDolde]

Whats with the fruity hat?

 

[tashley]

Check out the other thread on the 110 lens nearby - these guys are Morris Dancers, an ancient English form of folk dance (mostly invented by nostalgic Victorians as far as I can see!) and they perform outside English pubs on summer evenings in exchange for a £ in the charity box and a a few pints of ale. They also hit each other with sticks and wear bells on their ankles.

Go figure.

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

Sorry to hear that, Tim - I've used Sensor + a few times and have been very happy with it - tho' I'd rather have a 60 mp file!

I'll see if I can post some examples.

Bill

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Wow this is so wrong it is scary. Sorry Tim but God knows what you are doing or what is going on. Maybe one of the best features of these new backs from Phase. I 100 percent disagree. I use this feature a LOT.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379

 

[vieri]

Wow this is so wrong it is scary. Sorry Tim but God knows what you are doing or what is going on. Maybe one of the best features of these new backs from Phase. I 100 percent disagree. I use this feature a LOT.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379

It must have something to do with the different subjects you shoot Guy! If I were a digital back would get even worse banding from shooting Morris Dancers than the one Tim is getting - you shoot beautiful girls, so your P40+ is of course much happier to oblige :ROTFL:

Seriously speaking Tim, I am very sorry to see that happening to you - I didn't give my P65+ a serious try with Sensor + yet, but will try and to that next week and see what I can get out of it. I would anyway contact P1's support and see what they have to say about that...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well I wish it was beautiful girls all the time but it has yet to disappoint me and main reason i won't buy a Canon or Nikon because I can get ISO 1600 pretty cleanly

 

[kdphotography]

.... If I were a digital back would get even worse banding from shooting Morris Dancers than the one Tim is getting - you shoot beautiful girls, so your P40+ is of course much happier to oblige :ROTFL:
....

I don't care who you are---that was funny! :ROTFL:

Initially, I thought Sensor+ was just some sort of corny marketing or hype from Phase One---until I used it. Wow---it actually has great utility! Resolution goes down, but you're still using the full frame of the entire sensor. To be sure, the full resolution is usually preferred, but sometimes when you need that extra stop/speed, you'd be surprised what Sensor+ is capable of.

Tim, have you tried burning sage? :ROTFL:

 

[vieri]

Well I wish it was beautiful girls all the time but it has yet to disappoint me and main reason i won't buy a Canon or Nikon because I can get ISO 1600 pretty cleanly

Indeed - seriously speaking, leaving girls aside (not that THAT isn't serious of course! :ROTFL: ) I have to get into some serious Sensor Plus testing and see if that will be enough for me to drop my D3 system altogether for the work I do. So far, I use my Nikon D3 (17-35, 24-70, 70-200, 35 f1.4, 50 f1.2, 85 f1.4) for paid concert work in clubs where the light is not that great, but being able to consolidate all the work in the Phase system would be great, both as ease of use and economically of course. More than the sensor (your ISO 1600 samples look stunningly clean to me!) what I am worried about is the body-lens-AF speed combination, but the DF body seems way faster than the older Phase body, so I am hopeful

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The speed is actually better than one would think. Try putting the body on C and let it follow focus. Be surprised it is actually quite good at it . Now not Canon good but shooting runway with a 300mm with the models coming straight at me is a challenge for follow focus and my keeper rate is very good. Make sure your back is on zero latency. It makes the back faster

 

[David K]

So far, I use my Nikon D3 (17-35, 24-70, 70-200, 35 f1.4, 50 f1.2, 85 f1.4) for paid concert work in clubs where the light is not that great, but being able to consolidate all the work in the Phase system would be great, both as ease of use and economically of course. More than the sensor (your ISO 1600 samples look stunningly clean to me!) what I am worried about is the body-lens-AF speed combination, but the DF body seems way faster than the older Phase body, so I am hopeful

I can understand the desirability of using a single system but I think the Nikon D3 is far better suited for the kind of work you're describing. Let us know how you make out. I'm certainly curious...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

BTW do NOT even try sensor plus outside of C1. They are a team and will not work good at all without each other. Also watch your luminance and noise levels. C1 tends to go a little high by default. Try 15 or 20 for luminance and 50-60 on color. This is obviously by taste and I use that setting for 1600 but go lower for lower ISO. It is a balancing act on what you like.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I can understand the desirability of using a single system but I think the Nikon D3 is far better suited for the kind of work you're describing. Let us know how you make out. I'm certainly curious...

It is a great question and if your doing high ISO work daily as your main bread winner than the DSLR's will be a better choice but like me that uses both a lot and does not want to invest another 10k in another system but rather put in the MF system than it makes some sense if it is more occasionally used. ISO 800 doing events is all you will ever need so using a MF is a no brainer but when you start leaking into 1600 and above than the DSLR' seem like a better choice. Is there days I would rather have theDSLR sure but when I look at the files at the end of the day i keep saying why to myself. Sure I am beating myself up with a heavier load to deal with but I am also getting paid too. Maybe a little easier to swallow when you actually get money to bust your butt out there. LOL

I know many view sensor plus as a gimmick but not me I view it as saving money on my end and putting that money back in my pocket . Sure it is harder work but you know the old saying yada yada yada

 

[eleanorbrown]

Initially I thought sensor plus on the 65+ was marketing hype too until I tried using it. Now I make frequent use of it and it allows me to hand hold when I wouldn't otherwise be able too! I'm getting great results. Eleanor

 

[vieri]

I can understand the desirability of using a single system but I think the Nikon D3 is far better suited for the kind of work you're describing. Let us know how you make out. I'm certainly curious...

I will definitely share with the forum as soon as I have a chance (read: a non-paying gig where I can just go and try stuff out, or a paying gig but close to home so I don't have to lug 2 systems around to try them side by side)... I am certainly curious to see how it will work out as well, just need to put bread on the table in the meantime

BTW do NOT even try sensor plus outside of C1. They are a team and will not work good at all without each other. Also watch your luminance and noise levels. C1 tends to go a little high by default. Try 15 or 20 for luminance and 50-60 on color. This is obviously by taste and I use that setting for 1600 but go lower for lower ISO. It is a balancing act on what you like.

Thank you Guy for the tip, actually I am now using C1 for ALL my digital stuff (that'd be Phase & Nikon for the moment, though I am looking fwd to add a GF1 to the mix) and though I might be able to squeeze something more out of those NEFs using Capture NX the whole software is so abysmal that once getting used to Capture 1 I never looked back and started using it for all my stuff. Looks good enough to me with the NEF to not have to bother using NX anymore.
Thanks for the noise settings, I will definitely try them as a starting point as soon as I will have a chance to use S+ seriously. Oh, and about the "zero latency", I started using it after my first shooting with the P65+ and it makes an incredible difference - wonder what the "long latency" is there for

It is a great question and if your doing high ISO work daily as your main bread winner than the DSLR's will be a better choice but like me that uses both a lot and does not want to invest another 10k in another system but rather put in the MF system than it makes some sense if it is more occasionally used. ISO 800 doing events is all you will ever need so using a MF is a no brainer but when you start leaking into 1600 and above than the DSLR' seem like a better choice. Is there days I would rather have theDSLR sure but when I look at the files at the end of the day i keep saying why to myself. Sure I am beating myself up with a heavier load to deal with but I am also getting paid too. Maybe a little easier to swallow when you actually get money to bust your butt out there. LOL

I know many view sensor plus as a gimmick but not me I view it as saving money on my end and putting that money back in my pocket . Sure it is harder work but you know the old saying yada yada yada

I am with you on this one Guy, I am doing lot of different work with photography (both to put the proverbial bread on the table and because I enjoy the diversification, I would not like to specialize on one thing only) and though concert work is a good portion of what I do - and though I have a good D3 system already set up (D3, 17-35, 24-70, 70-200 VRII, 35 f1.4, 50 f1.2, 85 f1.4 all manual, plus bits and bobs) - I wouldn't mind to free that Nikon-tied cash to expand on the Phase system a little, and to get the Rodenstock 23 for the Bicam as well...

We'll see how it turns out! Thanks guys!

 

[vieri]

Initially I thought sensor plus on the 65+ was marketing hype too until I tried using it. Now I make frequent use of it and it allows me to hand hold when I wouldn't otherwise be able too! I'm getting great results. Eleanor

Great to know Eleanor, one more reason to find the time to give this a serious try

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Zero latency will eat batteries a little quicker for sure. When using a tech camera sometimes this can be a issue because it is always on without delay and you can do a single cable without wakeup. I think Phase put the long latency in for saving battery but it needs to wake up the back also which in this mode you need the wake up cable and for some folks that is fine with certain types of work like landscape stuff.

Now on the DF body zero is instant shooting and I believe there is a slight delay with long latency to wake it up or get it out of pause mode.

Doug may add more to this but this is the way I understand the setup

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now the good news here is the P40 and P65 plus backs seem to run more efficiently than the previous backs in regards to battery power. I carry 5 batteries but rarely get past two in a day of shooting. I find even with zero latency an improvement in the new backs. So I always just leave it on zero anyway. Now landscape folks out in the field may want to consider longer latency if they are out overnight or constantly on.

 

[tashley]

I don't care who you are---that was funny! :ROTFL:



Tim, have you tried burning sage? :ROTFL:

tres drole

 

[tashley]

I was always told that zero latency, whilst speeding up response on an SLR style body and obviating the need for a wake-up cable on a tech cam, means that the sensor is 'always on' and that in turn means that it is generating heat and therefore noise. Further, that Dalsa sensors are not designed to handle this as well as Kodak ones with their longer available exposure times, and that therefore with zero latency on a dalsa you run the risk, unless shooting for short periods and then powering off, that the sensor gets warm and noise levels start to rise.

If this isn't the case I'd love to know it since wake-up cables and slow response suck but the only PM I've had from a tech-type about this thread asked me whether I was using zero or normal latency.

In any event, no panic here. I like the P65+ and will assume that some freakish aspect of yesterday's shooting was to blame so I will make a whole load more test exposures and see what I get before I get to gnashing!

ps I bet C focus is better with zero latency since there is no pause between the moment of focus lock and exposure.