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Thread: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

  1. #1
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    ISO 400 is definitely usable for most subjects on this back. Here is a 0.5s exposure at ISO 400. Once again, there were strong sodium lights so this is a torture test. (No noise reduction applied).



    Will post another sample in a minute.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Another ISO 400 sample. No processing apart from white balance:


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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    And crops, unproccessed and then noise reduction applied:





    Remember, you probably would never shoot a scene like this at ISO 400 (the max setting) but nice to know it can be cleaned up pretty well. The colour saturation of dark colours suffers, so there's still no substitute for base ISO.
    Last edited by Graham Mitchell; 2nd May 2008 at 19:14.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Compare with ISO 50, same scene, same 100% crop:


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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    The colour saturation of dark colours suffers, so there's still no substitute for base ISO.
    Amen.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Graham
    I was very disappointed in some of my ISO 800 shots from the P45+, as there was this classic noise. However, I was also amazed how well it cleared up on yours. SO I tried myself (used noisewhere mostly defaults)
    even a little extra sharpening
    this is ok just a.3 sec exposure but it was DARK at the top of ALbi. :-)

    Victor

    PS these are of course 100%. pixel for pixel same here and on PD screen
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:22.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Its a little unfair;I dont have a 50 or 100 and I changed lenses!

    but here is an NO NR ISO 400 shot of same area.

    seems so of the 'noise' was peeling paint!
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:22.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    well. I guess there was more noise than I thought!

    ANyway, it is clear that the sinars improved from 54 ti 75s and even in the 75s from july of last year (as someone here commented)

    enough for ME to take a look at the new 75!

    Victor
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:22.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    ok, Thierry suggested that I try processing this image with Brumbaer to solve the colour saturation issue, and wow does it make a difference!

    Same ISO 400 shot, processed differently and cleaned up:



    Compare with:


    Thierry, i assume that this option is only available if you are shooting untethered? If I shoot tethered and use Exposure how could I use Brumbaer's DNG converter?

    These ISO 400 shots have been longer exposures and under very unnatural light. I will go out now and take a shot in the sun at 1/100 or faster (and ISO 400) and report back.

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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Graham,
    In the two threads you started, how were your all your long exposure images previously processed?
    Billy

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Graham,
    In the two threads you started, how were your all your long exposure images previously processed?
    Billy
    Not sure I understand the question, sorry. I have been using Exposure except for this last file. Brumbaer seems a lot better at preserving dark colours at high ISO.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    ok, here is a quick snapshot I just took outside. Handheld, ISO 400, around f10 and 1/600.

    Unlike the previous shots under sodium light and longer exposure (which was a torture test) this is showing off ISO 400 under favourable conditions. Please consider these factors when comparing different shots! Here you can see how much difference the conditions make on the same ISO setting on the same camera.

    Further note, this IS a torture test for dynamic range but there was no clipping at either end, even at ISO 400.

    Scene:



    crop with no noise reduction:



    crop after some noise reduction:


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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    This is interesting, as I had commented that Thierry's ISO 800 shot was surprisingly good also, and his processing involved Brumbear also. Seems like we are back to the software having something to do with how things come out again. I was under the impression that eXposure had incorporated Brumbear's algorithms or at least came close. Does not look to be the case.

    LJ

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Last sequence processed with Brumbaer.

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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I was under the impression that eXposure had incorporated Brumbear's algorithms or at least came close. Does not look to be the case.
    LJ
    As was I, in fact, I was told that this was the case by my dealer. I think there's some misinformation being spread around (innocently, I'm sure) which makes these posts particularly valuable.

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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    My earlier reply with link about Brumbaer & Sinar :
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpo...86&postcount=9
    where Brumbaer says
    Quote Originally Posted by brumbaer,Mar 11 2008, 02:35 PM
    No, I have nothing to do with Xposure. To be true, I assume the team hates me
    Last edited by BJNY; 3rd May 2008 at 05:45.

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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Graham,
    Your original morning shot was not bad, but it really cleaned up nicely with Noise Ninja. Seems like the Brumbaer algoritms are doing some really nice things.

    LJ

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Yeah, it's nice to know that ISO 400 is very usable, and not just for emergencies, though it may suffer with longer exposures. However, I would only use ISO 400 when I wanted to get a fast exposure in poor light (e.g. to freeze people). Otherwise, I would use base ISO.

  19. #19
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Yes, it does make a difference, currently and with the Brumbaer converter, when one wants to "preserve" the colours: the secret here is to use the right "Colour Matrix", which Brumbaer's converter allows (eXposure has a colour calibration as well in the current version, but not so elaborate yet).

    Which "Colour Matrix" did you choose, Graham, for this conversion?

    The noise itself is not such a problem, in both converters.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    ok, Thierry suggested that I try processing this image with Brumbaer to solve the colour saturation issue, and wow does it make a difference!

    Thierry, i assume that this option is only available if you are shooting untethered? If I shoot tethered and use Exposure how could I use Brumbaer's DNG converter?

    These ISO 400 shots have been longer exposures and under very unnatural light. I will go out now and take a shot in the sun at 1/100 or faster (and ISO 400) and report back.

  20. #20
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    as said, Brumbaer does not change much concerning noise, there is no noise reduction taking place either in Brumbaer nor in eXposure (no filter built-in yet), and this is done in e.g. ACR.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Last sequence processed with Brumbaer.

  21. #21
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    That was a joke from Stefan (Brumbaer)!

    We (at least myself) still speak together!

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    My earlier reply with link about Brumbaer & Sinar :
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpo...86&postcount=9
    where Brumbaer says

  22. #22
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    If there is some misunderstanding, then I'll clear it here:

    - Stefan Hess was working in collaboration with Sinar concerning the centerfold effect and has written the code to correct this problem, together with the valuable help of Rainer Viertlböck, an architecture photographer from Germany: both owe a Sinarback eMotion 75 (among others) and without having ever met, have cooperated (Rainer shooting/testing and Stefan by writing the code) to find the solution to this problem: this code has been introduced in the Sinar Captureshop SW in September '06 and now also in eXposure.

    - Since Stefan owes an eMotion 75, it is normal that his own tools, the Brumbaer tools (eMotion Reader, eMotion DNG Converter, etc ...) do work and accept files from Sinar, at the begining only eMotion files, then later also Sinar .STI files

    - The unique feature in the DNG converter is its amazingly fast and practical workflow for someone shooting architecture, for example. There one needs with EACH shot a specific "White Reference", to compensate the sensor colour fall-off, or the lens fall-off, or the fall-off when shifting/tilting/swinging. The Brumaber Converter has the very unique feature that one can (un-tethered) produce those "white Ref." files for each shot in-camera, and thereafter they are applied AUTOMATICALLY in a batch process, thus saving hours of time.

    This feature is not yet a possibility in eXposure, but we are working on it to incorporate something similar.

    I hope this clarifies.
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    As was I, in fact, I was told that this was the case by my dealer. I think there's some misinformation being spread around (innocently, I'm sure) which makes these posts particularly valuable.
    Last edited by thsinar; 3rd May 2008 at 08:11.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Which "Colour Matrix" did you choose, Graham, for this conversion?
    I barely know how to use this, but here are the settings at the moment. (I will try to learn more about this application now.)

  24. #24
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    OK, that's the Daylight default matrix. You could use another: for daylight shots with sun the "cloudy" does a better work IMO. For the night shot, I would try the tungsten or even create my own matrix.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I barely know how to use this, but here are the settings at the moment. (I will try to learn more about this application now.)

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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Graham, according to the documentation for the eMotion 54 LV on Sinar's site, the ISO range is from 50-200. Is that an error, or was there an update?
    Carsten - Website

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Graham, according to the documentation for the eMotion 54 LV on Sinar's site, the ISO range is from 50-200. Is that an error, or was there an update?
    That must be an error, it is definitely 50-400.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    I would have to agree , I don't think there is a back out there except the ZD not rated to at least ISO 400 now.

    Graham the 54LV is a 22mpx 9 micron Dalsa , Correct?
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  28. #28
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar eMotion 54LV - ISO 400 (max)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Graham the 54LV is a 22mpx 9 micron Dalsa , Correct?
    Yes, I think that's right.

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