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Thread: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Hello all,

    With the impending arrival of my Pentax 645D, I am musing on lens options. Clearly Pentax 645 lenses are the obvious choice, and I already have an extensive collection of Pentax 67 lenses that I will use with an adaptor.

    However, other options are occurring to me as well. One of these is picking up used V system Blad lenses and using them with an adaptor (and accepting the need for stopped down metering, etc.).

    I know that these lenses were not specifically designed with digital in mind, with the inevitable possibility of quality issues with applying them to digital cameras (especially with the wider lenses). Of course these 'issues' could just be theoretical.

    Does anyone have hands-on experience of using these lenses with MF digital sensors? How do they perform compared with dedicated MF digital lenses (such as the H series lenses or the newer lenses designed for use with the Mamiya/Phase offerings)? Resolution? Vignetting? CA? Prejudice makes me feel that the V system lenses may not be quite as good, and that the wider ones in especially may suffer in the edges. But I'd like to know for sure. If they are good, which lenses from the range are particularly recommended? Is there any actual test data available on this?

    Also, what about any other good options? I assume that the H series lenses, the newest Mamiya/Phase lenses and the Leica S lenses cannot be used easily with the 645D because they need electronic input to operate the aperture. But are there other options? What about the Contax 645 lenses? Any others?

    I don't mind some practical inconvenience with stop-down metering, etc.; my main concern is what is going to yield the best optical results.

    All advice much appreciated.

    Ed

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Well I use a PhaseOne P25+ back, wich I know is now a bit lowRes ; but I use it on my Hsselblad V system and an ALPA 12 with Schneider ApoDigitar Lenses.

    I use a SWC BIOGON , the Distagon CF50, the PLanar 80mm and the 180mm sonnar CF. I am really happy with the results of the Biogon and the 180 mm, the 80 is also very good.

    With the SWC I have some corner fallOff, but the IQ is very good, crisp.

    With this resolution of sensor (25MP) these good old film lenses do the job.
    No need to say that the Shneider Apo Digitar series are a step higher !

    Hope this help...

    PS : I have posted images taken with these lenses on the fun with MFDB thread.
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    http://stef974.tumblr.com/
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    I use the 40 CFE and the zoom 60/120mm from the FE series. This is the first MF lens to recieve a 10/10 optical and mechanical in the lens test in Photomagazin(DE) and that also shows off in digital. I have two of them, bought a spare brand new one but my original keeps on going. I sold all my other CFE lenses as the zoom was better than the primes. I also tried the Mamiya offerings but will keep on using my 60/120. ( the spare one is for sale as the other one seems to be undestructable.

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Hi,

    In order to use a lens from one system on another system there need to be sufficient space between the difference in flange to focal distance of the two systems for an adapter to be mounted. Naturally, also someone needs to make an adapter or it need to be custom made. The alternative is to modify the mount on a lens.

    Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_mount

    As can be seen in the table there the flange to focal distance for
    Pentax 645 = 70.87mm
    Mamiya 645 = 63.3mm

    Thus it could be possible to make an adapter to fit Pentax 645 lens onto Mamiya 645, but... the 7.57mm is small space for an adapter. It can thus also be seen that to fit Mamiya 645 onto Pentax 645 is impossible using an adapter. The lens would need to be modified and the lens mount end would need to be shaved off!

    Similarly,
    Hasselblad = 74.9

    74.9 - 70.87 = 4.03mm = Clearly too small for an adapter.

    Thus it appears that you would be constrained to the Pentax 6x7 and other lenses south of those in the table linked above.

    With used Phase-One and Leaf digital backs being in similar price range as the Pentax 645d perhaps those are something to consider? Of course, ignoring pixels, the question to ask would be if the image IQ of the Pentax 645d is more similar to DSLR or to Phase One and Leaf, and then to decide if pixels or IQ is most important.

    Also support is vital. My Leaf is over two years old and under a 3-year warranty. The support from Leaf remains very fast and excellent.

    Regards
    Anders

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Thanks for your input guys. Always good to get hands on advice. I am particularly interested in knowing how the V system lenses would perform on a 40MP sensor (and better) compared with lenses designed for MFD such as H system or the newer Mamiya / Phase stuff. But it's hard to find definitive info...

    By the way, re. the question of whether it's actually possible to use V glass on P645, Fotodiox offer such an adaptor and guarantee infinity focus. So it appears that it is possible... Though the logic outlined above seems reasonable. Now I'm confused!

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    I use some V and F series lenses on a 205TCC, a 500CW, and H3D11-39 back body combo with CFV adaptor for CF/CFE lenses. The Zeiss lenses 'draw' differently to H series lenses. For fun I bought a Contax body and the MAM adaptor from a forum member so I could use a Sinar back on the Contax - the Contax has the best mirror dampening ( still) amongst all the MF bodies and it is easy and fun to use with focal plane shutters.

    I prefer the look of the old Zeiss lenses with B&W film especially, also it is fun to use a CFV11 16 megapixel back on the 205TCC and 500CW - for clunky retro fun - or with B&W film and those old school lenses with their beautiful bokeh. The 16 megapixel back shoots way above its megapixel weight - if you feed it nough glorious sunshine into those fat pixels -

    Phoucs 2.5 now gives you lens corrections for CF/CFE and F/FE series lenses as well as the HC series lenses ( of course). I often use the CFE IF 40 I bought from a forum member via the CFV adaptor on the H body - because it sits nicely between the 28mm and the 80 - I dont own a 50mm in HC guise.

    All this sounds like a lot of 'gear' but since few people want old stuff anymore - it is acctually quite easy and (relatively) cheap to pick up. I think CFV11 backs sell for less than 35mm cameras these days -and as you would know a 500 series body costs nothing much.

    I even use F/FE lenses on a Nikon via adaptor - just for fun occassionally - of course you are using the 'sweetspot' of the center of the lenses - but the look is definately 'different' to Nikon lenses.

    So yes there are peopel out there who buy this old clunker stuff to use with old clunker bodies and even with adaptors across multipel platforms - if you yearn for a 'different' type of lens draw - minus the formulaic contrast ratios (sharpness) of the new lenses in MF land from Mamiya and Hasselblad - it works.

    I would rate the lens specific outcomes in this way

    1. Best use on a 500 or 200 series camera body shooting B&W film
    2. Second best use when matched to a fat pixel ( the old 9 micron pitches ) or backs without microlenses on them - as long *** you are feeding a LOT of light into back ( for me it is why I keep the CFV11 and the Sinar backs)
    3. Third best use on H seies body in order to make up for focal length you dont have OR to make use of focus confirmation and buillt in metering etc

    If you likM shooting with Phase One and mamiya - just get the adaptor and a nice P25+ or P45+ back - same /similar results as #1 and #2.

    Hope this helps
    Pete

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed HUrst View Post
    Thanks for your input guys. Always good to get hands on advice. I am particularly interested in knowing how the V system lenses would perform on a 40MP sensor (and better) compared with lenses designed for MFD such as H system or the newer Mamiya / Phase stuff. But it's hard to find definitive info...

    By the way, re. the question of whether it's actually possible to use V glass on P645, Fotodiox offer such an adaptor and guarantee infinity focus. So it appears that it is possible... Though the logic outlined above seems reasonable. Now I'm confused!
    Ed,

    I stand corrected on Hassy V to Pentax 645. That looks as an impressive thin one. A few years back I looked for Pentax 645 to Mamiya 645 none available and word that Zoerk had backed out from fabricate because problem due small difference between mounts. Advise though, research to ensure that Fotodiox is a good one. For Hassy V to Mamiya 645 many appear to have reported problems with infinity focus except Mamiya and Phase One adapters, including problems with Fotodiox such.

    Regards
    Anders

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    I am using a first generation CFV back, 16 mp and a brace of V lenses. I have not had any issues with the quality of images that they produce with this back. I have tried the H3DII and H4D 40 and am hard pressed on an upgrade to the H platform or any other for that matter. I am not producing billboard sized images, my printer only goes to 17x22 and I would run out of wall space if I printed all that large. If pressed, I am sure that I could resize the images for optimal resolution. Here is an image and crop of the bottom right area where I at first thought that I had a dust storm on my sensor. When zoomed to 100% I found that the dust spots were actually seagulls resting on the water.

    Shot with a 180 CFi V lens

    -Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    I picked up a Hassy V to Pentax 645 adapter via Ebay a few years back. it work as advertised. From memory, it was made in China somewhere. Here's a Pentax 645 NII and 150 CF image http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4251109
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Hi Ed. Firstly....we all look forward to getting your first hand reports and seeing images from the 645D. I think you will be one of the first in the States to get one. I had overlooked your post about ordering the camera until now. Congrats!

    I ordered and received the Fotodiox Hasselblad V to Pentax 645 adapter last week. Haven't actually used it yet, but it does look well made. I thought I'd try some of my favorite V series lenses on my 645NII, just for the heck of it.

    Although I own pretty much every lens between the Hasselblad 40mm CFE IF and a 350mm CF with the exception of those rare and expensive 250/350 SA beauties (most of mine are CFE/CFi versions) and a Hasselblad 503CW with the CFV-II 16 digital back, I can't say that I've used them enough to comment on which lenses work best (or perhaps more importantly, less well) with the CFV-16. There are at least a couple of folks on this forum with a great deal of experience using the V-systems lenses and the CFV-16 and CFV-39 backs....so hopefully they will chime in here soon.

    My own personal view.....I think you'd be hard pressed to find any problems with most of the Zeiss V series lenses on the 645D. Some of them can be had for very good prices these days. And there are others (like the 40mm CFE IF) that are still quite expensive, even on the used market.

    I look forward to your thoughts on the 645D and especially....on how well your Pentax 67 lenses perform on it.

    When do you expect the camera to arrive?

    Gary

    Here's one of my early shots with the CFV-II 16 and the 40mm CFE IF lens. I really need to get out and use this setup more often. Resolution wise of course, I wish it was a CFV-39, along the lines of your 645D!

    Last edited by bensonga; 7th June 2010 at 19:40.

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)



    205TCC CFV11 with a FE 110/2 ( wide open) - plenty enough resolution for 8x10 and 20x 30 ...

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Peter, Gary and Al - Thanks for the advice re. using the V lenses on 16MP backs. Looks promising... But perhaps some question makes over their suitability for 40MP usage? Like you say Gary - some more first hand evidence of this combination would be interesting.

    Gary - I won't be one of the early 645D adoptors in the US because I am in Australia :-)
    I expect to have the camera in the second half of June (it's due to ship something like 11th June if I get into the first batch, but I am travelling so won't be back to receive it until something like 23rd June).


    Anders and Jeff - your advice (and cautionary words) on the adaptors is most welcome! I am getting the Fotodiox adaptor and will try it with a friend's V series lenses and the 645D before even thinking about buying V lenses!

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed HUrst View Post
    Gary - I won't be one of the early 645D adoptors in the US because I am in Australia :-)
    I should have remembered that from our exchange of posts on another thread. Another confirmation of what my wife has been telling me recently.....my memory is going downhill fast! :-(

    Re using the Hasselblad V lenses on a ~40mp resolution digital back (such as the CFV-39 or some of the H series cameras).....I'm hoping that Marc (fotografz), Jurgen (jotloob) or John (jlm) will see this and offer their experiences. Each of them has extensive experience with these lenses on high res Hasselblad digital backs. There are others on this forum who do also....so hopefully some of them will chime in for you. You might want to send them a PM if they don't see this thread.

    In the meantime....check out this thread from John.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...ghlight=CFV-39

    If you go the V-system lens route.....the 40mm CFE IF should be near the top of your wish list! By most accounts, an exceptionally good wide angle lens.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 8th June 2010 at 22:55.

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    See this post on LL

    the 40MP kodak chip is not going to push the lenses as hard as our 56MP Dalsa which is much bigger, so I do foresee any major IQ issue, providing that Pentax get the IQ right in the first place.

    BTW had a chance to play with the 645D in Paris the last couple of days, no files unfortunately but the camera is nice

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Thanks Yair. I presume you meant to say that you do NOT foresee any major IQ issue?

    Best wishes,

    Ed

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Yes of course, sorry about that!

    thanks, yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Just me making sure Yair. I think, in truth, it was clear what you meant from the context :-) Sorry for being pedantic...

    When you say that you do not foresee any major IQ issue, I'd be interested to know if this means that the lenses resolve at least as much detail as the sensor can deliver (i.e. that there would, at least from a resolution perspective, be no benefit in having a better lens) or merely that the lenses are ok with a 40MP sensor (i.e. that 'better' lenses, such as the newer Leaf/Mamiya/Phase offerings - or something else - would lead to more detail being resolved).

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Hi Ed,

    A better lens, which can resolve more, will for sure carry some benefits, depending on your needs and the requirements for the final image.
    Other issues, like edge sharpness, chromatic aberrations etc. can also affect the image quality.
    For example we can assume that for landscape you will want to achieve maximum resolution across the frame whereas if you shoot beauty/ portraits your needs will be different.

    I have zero experience with Pentax lenses and hi-res sensors so I cannot tell how they compare to other MF lenses.

    The Zeiss V lenses (in general) are very good and while they might not resolve as much as the latest offerings from Schneider/ Mamiya/ Rodenstock they can definitely deliver very good results and many people like the way the render

    Once you get your camera, perhaps you can get an adapter and rent/ borrow some lenses so that you can get 1st hand experience with them and compare them to your Pentax ones?
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Thanks Yair. Yes, my plan is to do loads of testing and share the results here... I've had an offer of help with the testing process (which I will certainly need). A friend of mine has some V series glass. I have Pentax glass. But I don't have access to anything else (e.g. the newest offerings from Schneider / Mamiya / Rodenstock). I don't even know if any of that can be made to fit the Pentax 645D; do you know if it can?

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Ed,
    Pentax has made good lenses in the past and their dedicated digital lenses should be stellar. Buying a V lens will give you good to excellent results with a big draw back - ease of use. Shooting will be manual focus wide open, stop down, shoot. But the price of used V glass may make up for that. The plentiful 50 and 150 CFs can be bought for about $600 in the US in EXC condition or about the price of a Leica 21 mm external finder Don't know what the market is like in Australia, but if it is like here, bargains can be had on really good equipment.

    -Al
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed HUrst View Post
    Peter, Gary and Al - Thanks for the advice re. using the V lenses on 16MP backs. Looks promising... But perhaps some question makes over their suitability for 40MP usage? Like you say Gary - some more first hand evidence of this combination would be interesting.

    Gary - I won't be one of the early 645D adoptors in the US because I am in Australia :-)
    I expect to have the camera in the second half of June (it's due to ship something like 11th June if I get into the first batch, but I am travelling so won't be back to receive it until something like 23rd June).


    Anders and Jeff - your advice (and cautionary words) on the adaptors is most welcome! I am getting the Fotodiox adaptor and will try it with a friend's V series lenses and the 645D before even thinking about buying V lenses!
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Hi Al,

    Yes, I have no doubt that it is possible here to get good prices on used V lenses. I also agree with you that Pentax-designed dedicated digital lenses are likely to be extremely good and the best options. However, at present it is unclear that they are going to produce such lenses any time soon for all focal lengths. They've brought out a new 55mm f2.8 and announced something wider to come. But moderate to longer telephoto has not yet been mentioned. So I am left trying to decide whether legacy Pentax lenses (including the 67 lenses I already have) are going to be the absolute best option available or whether something else might be better... Of course if Pentax announced their longer-term plans in more detail, that would probably settle it for me!

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Ed,
    If it were my decision, I would wait and see what the total system will be before making the investment. I do know that the company has not even made up their minds as to offer the camera to the broader world market yet. With digital you take a huge depreciation in a short time period and even greater for orphaned platforms.
    Al
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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Hi Al,
    I see where you're coming from on this, but I have already ordered a 645D (to go with my collection of P67 lenses) so the decision is made! So my mindset is very much about getting the best out of it!
    Ed

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed HUrst View Post
    Hi Al,
    I see where you're coming from on this, but I have already ordered a 645D (to go with my collection of P67 lenses) so the decision is made! So my mindset is very much about getting the best out of it!
    Ed
    So go with your P67 lenses for awhile, see how they perform and let us know. Many of us with legacy P67 or P645 glass would like to know.....just in case we win the lottery.

    Unless you're trying to make a living from photography and your clients demand the utmost quality NOW, you've got time to wait, test the alternatives (whether Hasselbald Zeiss glass etc) and see what Pentax comes out with in the way of new digital lenses over the next year or so.

    Just from a personal perspective....if I was in your shoes (ie having ordered a 645D and with a nice collection of P67 lenses) I'd just use my P67 lenses and see how the images look. If I wasn't satisfied with the results, then I'd start looking for alternatives (whether new Pentax digital lenses or whatever). Who knows....maybe those P67 lenses will be up to the job after all! After all.....to the best of my knowledge, no one has yet seen how well the Pentax 67 lenses perform on a medium format sized digital camera like the 645D.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing your images from the 645D with P67 glass.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 9th June 2010 at 19:08.

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post

    The Zeiss V lenses (in general) are very good and while they might not resolve as much as the latest offerings from Schneider/ Mamiya/ Rodenstock
    Hey Yair you forgot to mention Hasselblad there

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Hey Yair you forgot to mention Hasselblad there
    "The Zeiss V lenses" I thought they were Hasselblad no?

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    Re: Using Blad V system lenses on MFD (and others?)

    Ed,
    I agree with Gary, use your 67 lenses first and if they perform, for you great. I feel that there is more to an image than extreme sharpness. The lens should draw the image and add its' own feeling or personality to the image.

    Don't forget to share your images

    Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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