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Thread: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

  1. #1
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Someone requested this via LL but I may as well share it with everyone here.

    What was requested was full resolution samples at various ISOs so I went out and took a very boring photo with no artistic merit whatsoever What is does have is lots of detail, dynamic range and colour.

    I took the same shot at all ISOs, changing only the shutter speed and ISO setting.

    Then I pulled all the files into Photoshop and layered them on top of each other, with the layer names showing you which layer is which ISO setting. You can therefore zoom in and flick between layers to see the difference up close.

    These files are UNSHARPENED and there is NO NOISE REDUCTION.

    The member who contacted me offline wanted to do some test prints, so you are all hereby permitted to download, print, or do anything else to this image.

    The file is a 511 MB Photoshop file, so I had to split it into 6 smaller pieces in order to host it. These are in the form of a ZIP archive.

    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?iz5uujlny1f
    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?43fc9tmomzd
    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ygdmnmddewq
    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jgdd2q2jgl4
    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?qcd0t2zdunl
    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?fvzw5hlylcx






    Let me know how you go!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Ok, a Mac user is reporting difficulties offline, so here is a guide to restoring the file.

    PC users: use Winzip, for example. Free trial version will work. This was utility used to create the plit archive.

    Mac (Intel) users: Intel Mac users with Parallels can also run Winzip, or see Mac PPC solution

    Mac (PPC) users:

    1. Change all the .z01, .z02, etc. file extensions to .001, .002, etc.

    2. Change the file extension of the .zip file to .00X (X= the last numeric file extension from the .001, .002, etc. files + 1). In this example, the zip file extension will be changed to .006

    3. Join all segments with "MacHacha". (Drag the .001 file onto the MacHacha icon)

    Download here: http://tinyurl.com/yk6vsu

    4. Change the name of the file produced by "MacHacha" by adding the extension .zip .

    5. Unzip the this new zip file with "The Unarchiver". (Drag the zip file you just renamed onto the Unarchiver icon).
    Download here: http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/unarchiver.html

    I just tested this solution and it works.

    If anyone knows an easier Mac OSX solution to restoring a file from a split zip archive, please share! (Next time I will use split RAR instead of ZIP - there is a much easier solution for Mac users).
    Last edited by Graham Mitchell; 5th May 2008 at 01:11.

  3. #3
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Graham,
    Looks like you went to a lot of work here, but why not just offer the .dng files? Actually all I care about is the ISO 400 RAW file.
    Eric

  4. #4
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Graham,
    Looks like you went to a lot of work here, but why not just offer the .dng files? Actually all I care about is the ISO 400 RAW file.
    Eric
    Then different users could see different things depending on their raw processor, workflow, individual colour balance, etc. I wanted to know everyone was seeing the same thing, without NR or sharpening, and it is very handy to have the results in layers. It is the only meaningful way for people to then exchange opinions.

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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    "A" for effort,
    but why are you splitting the archive file, then to be re-assembled,
    when the separate downloads can JUST be the individual 50, 100, 200, & 400 ISO TIF layers?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    "A" for effort,
    but why are you splitting the archive file, then to be re-assembled,
    when the separate downloads can JUST be the individual 50, 100, 200, & 400 ISO TIF layers?
    The host's file size limit is 100MB which is not enough for a single TIFF. I would have had to split every TIFF file into two.

  7. #7
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    A+++ for effort,
    thanks Graham,

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    "A" for effort,

  8. #8
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Thanks Graham I would just like to see a ISO 400 and 800 raw.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  9. #9
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Guy,

    there is no ISO 800 with the eMotion 54 LV.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Graham I would just like to see a ISO 400 and 800 raw.

  10. #10
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Gotcha ya . Thanks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  11. #11
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Guy, did you download this? I think it will give you a very clear picture of the performance over the ISO range.

  12. #12
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Going to in just a few minutes trying to get everyone out of the house. There always interrupting me. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  13. #13
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Then different users could see different things depending on their raw processor, workflow, individual colour balance, etc. I wanted to know everyone was seeing the same thing, without NR or sharpening, and it is very handy to have the results in layers. It is the only meaningful way for people to then exchange opinions.
    Okay understand your thoughts, but yes all the reasons you listed are exactly the reasons why a RAW sample would be valuable to me. I could then try converting it with my own preferences, apply my own curves, test noise, etc. A file that someone else has handled does not teach me as much about the how the camera back performs.

    For example I did not get much feeling for the ISO 800 sample Thierry posted until I tried to lift shadows and adjust exposure levels with the RAW he provided on my own computer.

    I know how it is though. When ever I try to share/help on the forums there always is someone that thinks I should do it another way or wants something else. Few people say thanks - so thanks Graham for sharing.
    Eric

  14. #14
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)


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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Many thanks, once again!
    Best Regards
    Victor

  16. #16
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    You know your one awesome guy. Thanks my friend
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Hi Graham,

    Appreciate you posting the DNG files. The amount of detail looks great. I have a couple of questions regarding the files if you don't mind.

    From looking at the files it looks like the back exposes at the base ISO of 50 and the other ISOs are achieved by pushing the exposure in post. Is this true or am I missing something?

    Also, just curious about the shutter speeds recorded. As you changed ISOs the shutter speed did not change as I would have expected. It seems to be related to 1 of 3 possibilities - the light changed (doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell), the back is not reporting the right shutter speed, or the aperture was changed instead. I'm guessing the aperture changed but just curious if that was the case?

    Thanks,

    Greg

  18. #18
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    From looking at the files it looks like the back exposes at the base ISO of 50 and the other ISOs are achieved by pushing the exposure in post. Is this true or am I missing something?
    That isn't true. Why did you make this assumption? For example, you can overexpose at ISO 400 on settings which would underexpose at ISO 50.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Also, just curious about the shutter speeds recorded.
    Afaik, the shutter speeds are not recorded in teh first place because I am using a 6008AF which has no digital interface at all. The shutter speeds were 1/1000 for iso 400, 1/500 for iso 200, and so on. The aperture was fixed so that the file differences would be due only to exposure, not lens performance.

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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    That isn't true. Why did you make this assumption? For example, you can overexpose at ISO 400 on settings which would underexpose at ISO 50.
    I made the assumption based on what I'm seeing in the files. The ISO 400 shot when opened in a raw converter with no exposure compensation is far darker than the ISO 50 shot. It's not till you push it by 3 stops in the converter does the histogram match. I can achieve the same thing if I simulate ISO on my D3 by underexposing at ISO 200 by 3 stops and pushing by 3 in the converter I will get the equivalent of ISO 1600. The "real" ISO 1600 shot would be somewhat better since the ISO is done via analogue amplification and when opened does not appear underexposed as the simulated one would. So I'm just wondering why the Sinar files behave this way...



    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Afaik, the shutter speeds are not recorded in teh first place because I am using a 6008AF which has no digital interface at all. The shutter speeds were 1/1000 for iso 400, 1/500 for iso 200, and so on. The aperture was fixed so that the file differences would be due only to exposure, not lens performance.
    That's strange, the files show shutter speeds between 1/17 and 1/25 in the meta data.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    I made the assumption based on what I'm seeing in the files. The ISO 400 shot when opened in a raw converter with no exposure compensation is far darker than the ISO 50 shot.
    I used Brumbaer to create the DNGs and I think it does funny things. One of the reasons I posted the Photoshop layers first was to avoid all this confusion (which I knew would happen). It is the results that matter. Please look at the Photoshop document to compare properly processed results across the ISO range.
    Last edited by Graham Mitchell; 6th May 2008 at 15:13.

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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I used Brumbaer to create the DNGs and I think it does funny things, possibly due to the highlight recovery algorithm. One of the reasons I posted the Photoshop layers first was to avoid all this confusion (which I knew would happen). It is the results that matter. Please look at the Photoshop document to compare properly processed results across the ISO range.
    I agree, in the end it's certainly the results that matter and the files look great. That said, I'm glad that you posted the DNGs, gives me a much better idea of what I can do with the files and lets me try them with both ACR and Aperture. Thanks again for posting them.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Did anyone manage to download the PS document? According to the mediafire logs, there were 15 downloads but no-one has commented.

  23. #23
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Graham for me the DNG would not download and not sure why.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  24. #24
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Graham,

    just came back from China and have now tried here: but I have the same problem, as soon clicking the "download" button there is a window appearing with codes/numbers, endlessly!

    No way to download.

    Kind regards,
    Thierry

    PS. here what shows up!

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Did anyone manage to download the PS document? According to the mediafire logs, there were 15 downloads but no-one has commented.

  25. #25
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Me too
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    I downloaded the individual 400iso shot. Where there is light and the exposure is correct, it looks good. The noise in the areas where there is shade such as in the foreground people in the shade is quite big and blotchy. In that regards it looks worse than my DMR at 1600iso before the latest firmware, but if you downsized the file to the size of a 35mm 1.3 crop size sensor, the noise will probably be less noticeable.

    Robert

  27. #27
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Robert,

    Please keep in mind: Graham has NOT applied any NR on this file.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I downloaded the individual 400iso shot. Where there is light and the exposure is correct, it looks good. The noise in the areas where there is shade such as in the foreground people in the shade is quite big and blotchy. In that regards it looks worse than my DMR at 1600iso before the latest firmware, but if you downsized the file to the size of a 35mm 1.3 crop size sensor, the noise will probably be less noticeable.

    Robert

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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Thierry and Guy,
    If you saved that garbled looking file to your desktop or wherever, you will see that it has an extension beyond the .dng. Just delete that extension so the file becomes "iso50.dng" as in Thierry's example, and it will open in whatever app you are probably using.

    LJ

  29. #29
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Thanks LJ will try it a little later
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  30. #30
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Sorry to hear you are having problems - I tested it myself and had no issues.

    Robsteve, there is no noise reduction on this.

    It would be preferable if people looked at the Photoshop file I created which removes all workflow issues.

    Here is a crop from ISO 400 showing the shadow noise. There is no noise reduction applied at all:

  31. #31
    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Robert,

    Please keep in mind: Graham has NOT applied any NR on this file.

    Thierry
    I was comparing it to the DMR file prior to noise reduction too. In the latest firmware, I think there is some noise reduction done by the DMR prior to writing the RAW file, while in the previous firmwares, I think Leica/Imacon was expecting the user to deal with it as they thought best and didn't apply any noise reduction.

    Robert
    Last edited by robsteve; 9th May 2008 at 08:18.

  32. #32
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Graham:

    This is the area I was referring to:



    I ran the file through noise Ninja for this crop.


  33. #33
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    In case some Mac users are not aware, if you want to download the files in the original post, before clicking on "Click here to start download" hold the CTRL key....and then select "Download Linked File As........"


  34. #34
    Reproster
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Graham, don't forget the same is for PC too

    Attachment 4124


    Martins

  35. #35
    Panopeeper
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    Real ISOs

    Hi,

    I apologize for this intrusion. I have nothing to do here; I stumbled upon this page through a link. I am not the owner of any MFDB; my interest is only to all kinds of raw images, analyzing the characteristics of different cameras for the selfish purpose of better understanding their nature.

    Anyway, I noticed the post of Greg Seitz guessing that the Sinar eM22 back does not really have different ISO gains. I suspected this before, and now took the liberty and downloaded the DNG files for an analysis.

    Well, Greg was right. There is no ISO gain; the raw data is getting "lower and lower" with higher ISO.

    The raw converter records following adjustments in the XMP metadata; this causes for example ACR displaying like-brightness. Without that the higher ISO images would appear very dark:

    ISO 50: +0.50 EV
    ISO 100: +0.85 EV
    ISO 200: +1.85 EV
    ISO 400: +2.80 EV

    Here are the raw histograms (and I mean RAW). Note, that ISO 200 and 400 look almost identical, but look for the yellow note on the pixel level. Brumbaer's DNG converter insert strange white levels (16696, 16689, 25047), only ISO 400 gets 16383; this cases Rawnalyze to scale ISO 400 differently.

    It is noteworthy, that the pixel values do not get halved by increasing "ISO" setting; the reduction is less.

    Finally, the histograms:

    ISO 50:



    ISO 100:



    ISO 200:



    ISO 400:


  36. #36
    thsinar
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    Re: Real ISOs

    Dear Panopeeper,

    nothing to apologize.

    Thanks for your comments.

    I may add some information o your finding about Brumbaer's "strange" white levels: As I have said, the Brumbaer DNG converter does a "Highlight Recovery" by using the information left in one channel or another: it is very rare that all 3 colour channels are completely blown out, and this information left is used to recover details by Brumbaer's "eMotion DNG Converter".

    Thanks again and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Panopeeper View Post
    Hi,

    I apologize for this intrusion.
    Here are the raw histograms (and I mean RAW). Note, that ISO 200 and 400 look almost identical, but look for the yellow note on the pixel level. Brumbaer's DNG converter insert strange white levels (16696, 16689, 25047), only ISO 400 gets 16383; this cases Rawnalyze to scale ISO 400 differently.

  37. #37
    Fred Ragland
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Graham, this was a lot of work to help us understand what your back will do. Opening the files in PS and seeing what the limits are is very helpful. Thank you.

    Fred

  38. #38
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Fred, you're welcome. Did you download the large PS file? That's probably the best.

  39. #39
    Fred Ragland
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    Re: Sinar e54LV 'mother of all samples' thread :)

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Fred, you're welcome. Did you download the large PS file? That's probably the best.
    No, although I'm on a high speed line, it was downloading at only (roughly) 60 KB/sec so with the time available, I downloaded the ISO 50 and 400 DNG files. Although the ISO 400 has some color noise, the ISO 50 is a pleasure to study.

    Thank you again for doing this.

    Fred

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