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S2 versus H4D40/50 test

markowich

New member
apologies if this was posted before:

Hasselblad H4D: Versuch einer Standortbestimmung | photoscala

it is an interesting comparism of the H4D40/50 and the S2. it shows that Hasselblad's software works extremely well and one might be lead to conclude that the H4D40 wins out against the S2 due to its optimized software.
peter
(crossposted at the Leica S2 forum)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Man where have I said that before. LOL

Just a firm believer in software dedicated to this system as Hassy , Phase, Leaf and Sinar are doing
 

markowich

New member
Man where have I said that before. LOL

Just a firm believer in software dedicated to this system as Hassy , Phase, Leaf and Sinar are doing
Impressive though that leica's lens superiority gets totally wiped out by the software deficiences. P
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Impressive though that leica's lens superiority gets totally wiped out by the software deficiences. P
How do we even know that Leica's glass is better, lol... could it be a case of lower quality glass needing higher quality software?
(that was a JOKE!!!)



(kind of)

mods... feel free to delete this comment.
 
How do we even know that Leica's glass is better, lol... could it be a case of lower quality glass needing higher quality software?
(that was a JOKE!!!)
It's kind of an interesting blend of optimized software versus masking deficiencies. The Hassy 28 mm comes to mind. They cut corners on lens design because it was effectively easier to "fix it in post," but the end result is a stellar lens/camera/software combo that would not otherwise be possible. The new Phocus is a pretty nice piece of software from an image quality standpoint -- credit where due.
 

peterv

New member
The new Phocus is a pretty nice piece of software from an image quality standpoint -- credit where due.
Fully agree. Last week I've tried Phocus on my a900 files and like it a lot! I can only dream of what dedicated software like this would for Leica S files.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
How do we even know that Leica's glass is better, lol... could it be a case of lower quality glass needing higher quality software?
(that was a JOKE!!!)



(kind of)

mods... feel free to delete this comment.
Gutsy statement! But needed. I am pleased to see someone trying to keep a lighter tone on what has become a rather testy subject; the S2.

Actually though, it does all seem to be software (and maybe therefore improvable in the future - S2 people, keep your raws ;)

Detail seems the same. It looks mostly like contrast and saturation to me. The H seems more pleasing, but not necessarily better. What I see the Phocus doing is relieving a lot of post touch-up. REALLY would be nice to get an S2 profile.

That siad, I can't believe th S2 and Hassey shots were really color balanced correctly.

BTW, does Phocus do DMG files?

Victor
 
Victor,
If you mean .dng files such as those produced by the DMR the answer is Yes. I just ran a file to check and Phocus will do it.
Lawrence
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
These tests are fully reflecting my opinion about MF systems which started to build up during my last years comparisons and are now repeatedly confirmed by my own work and test like this one.

The achievable IQ produced by a digital MF system is a combination of camera, lenses and software. Hasselblad with Phocus and Phase with C1 are doing great here, Leica with S2 have the disadvantage of no really optimized SW. I do NOT understand why Leica gives away their advantage of designing great glass by not offering their own post processing SW. Sorry to say but this is the real killer of such an expensive system.

I would really love to use the S system instead of a bulky H system, if they offered their own SW plus a full lineup of lenses and of course a more attractive price for the S2 itself.

Great feeling to have made the right decision and go the Hasselblad route!
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Peter,
I agree...even wind up here agreeing with Guy :eek:

The key is the raw conversion. I don't think it is just a profile; the raw data in Phase and I assume Hasselblad contain clues on the whole begining to end development needs; color balance, corrections, noise, dead and hot pixels and the ever elusive 'conversion' of the linear bayer data (or log data in Leica compressed)

If they can do the latter, one would assume they could empirically come up with a S2 specific conversion... or is there a way that someone else can?

For some reason the M9 gets pretty good files from generic DNG (yes thx, meant dNg :) ) but S2 is much more sophisticated. My guess is that Leica will do it, if there is IQ to squeeze out.

HOWEVER, the clocks and calendars at Leica do not seem to conform to those used by the rest of the world...

Victor
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Victor,

indeed, H is doing so much in their RAW conversion in Phocus already, that the images falling out of just importing the RAWs into Phocus is eye opening. And after some individual adjustments the resulting IQ is stunning.

Must admit that I Phocus has still some lacks in terms of speed and usability of the whole tool, where current C1 Pro is a clear winner. But H is going there - slowly but consequently. So I am convinced that with one of the next Phocus releases it will do all I want from such a SW package (I also do NOT use ALL the functionality of C1 Pro!!!)

But Leica - well they made a big mistake in not offering their own RAW converter - or plug in into some third party SW. As you say, DNG is nice but cannot offer obviously the same IQ as individual RAW conversions.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
I still believe that; however, in the world of digital, the playing field changes. GLASS is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Getting the rays of light to the sensor is only the first step. I wish it were otherwise, but Bayer matrix, micro-lenses or not (and assymmetry of lenses) etc all mean that the individual RGB has some 'magic sauce' to squeeze the right image out.

I will admit, Leica, for all their mechanical and optical expertise is still a beginner in their processing (the wonderful DMR took third party help).

For me, the S2 images are already pretty close to showing the strength of the body and the lenses; there still lacks the extra ease of 'developing' to a ProRGB tiff that is "Print ready" or PS ready.

And we have clear evidence from C1 vs ACR for Phase files and Phocus vs others for hassey (if they could do it at all!) that the dedicated is superior. If I were a working pro, I would grouse too about the S2's lack of final refined developing.

HOWEVER, in the meantime the other advantages, the ability to tweak on your own in LR, make the S2 a sterling performer RIGHT NOW. But it is not effieicnt takes time (although some of the jpgs are pretty damn good right off the card see below....I woulkd like to see more punch, better exposure and DR maybe a tad increase in local contrast. All doable in LR, about 10 min a shot--- not what a pro wants to hear! (no, I didn't try. Maybe one of the LR mavens here would like to try. I have the raw file and will send, although as Guy said, he has many available here. Who knows, maybe someone will invent the 'magic sauce' right here.)

This fixable, and pretty easilt; either a third party will step in (maybe with a Jamie Roberts profile for starters) or Leica will develop a raw plugin.

We'll see..

Victor

PS But, BTW, the colors are spot on..dreary day funny colors (gotta love the forklift LOL)
 
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glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Victor

At the risk of exposing my ignorance , I don t understand why you would select an overcast capture for purposing of discussing IQ? The bluish color cast desaturates the image and makes it flat. Bare with me on how I would approach this image in LR ..I am trying to learn something by putting out a POV.

Because this capture has a workable DR it looks easy to correct. Start with WB ..the cabin of the ship is white and in normal light I bet even toward the warm side . I would balance the scene off the cabin. This immediately removes the bluish cast and saturates the red the hull etc. If it looks too warm then I back off but as presented the image looks to cold.

White and black points looked good . To add punch I generally add +10 to the light tones and -10 to the dark tones . The light tones need to be brightened because its an overcast day. This is almost a std "S" curve ( I learned this from Jack and I use it as a preset works probably 80-90% of the time).

I always add clarity to separate the mid tones +20 and depending on the desired color +5 vibrance. More on the D3X less on the M9 but a good starting point.

I always use the LR landscape sharpening preset.

If I had that light I would apply those as a batch process to every image.

Lots of ways to accomplish the same things .

I am not posting this as a critique but I honestly don t understand what people are referring too as taking 10 minutes an image. What exactly would you be working on?

What is difficult to separate out ,when doing comparisons between raw processors, is the IQ that is being derived thru superior conversion algorithms ,differences in profiles and the conversion presets .

Ok feel free to have at my POV ..I just don t get it?
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
It is fair to say I think, that the final image is a result of the entire imaging chain. I will go out on a limb a bit to also assert that with digital, "great glass" assuming that could be defined:D is significantly less important than with film. Remember that the legendary lens makers earned their reputations during the film age and have to some degree benefited from that long ago earned halo.
Even in film days, the look of a lens could be varied somewhat by the development technique, "sharper" developers would essentially create what we now refer to as "sharpening artifacts" due to local development agent exhaustion at image edges.

Today, sometimes it is one thing in the chain that is the obvious weak link. AA filters come to mind, but for some applications moire is a plague (wedding shooters raise your hand), so they have a good application when well balanced.
There are some digital artifacts that cannot be resolved no matter how complicated, by lens design (cosine law effects, for example).
Once software becomes part of that image processing chain, then there are all sorts of possibilities on improving and correcting what the combination of lens and sensor deliver, and that is always true despite the degree of lens and sensor "perfection" at least to-date. Design of all things is a balance of costs, goals, and imperfections, a compromise so to speak. All the "no compromise" rhetoric in the world can't change this.

If one uses jpeg camera files, the processing is limited to that recipe installed in the camera, and often that is limited by the limited processing power available to deliver the acceptable frames per second. A computer based raw processor mostly removes that constraint and gives wonderful controls.

The difference between a lens that provides 60% and 80% central contrast at say 30-40lpm is covered easily by just a small slider adjustment in post.

So, and to the extreme, if your finished product is the print, there are further complications that make some of the differences in lenses and sensors even less significant; each paper and printer and size combination has its own "best" processing.

The important invarient characteristics that are important in image making has a little more to do with the DR, linearity, and noise characteristics of the sensor and the choice made by the sensor maker of the shapes of the response curves of the filters used for each bayer primary.

So I mostly agree that the result is the significant point, and that there are a number of choices that can yield equivalent results in the finished product.

Those manufacturers that have a rich software capability well matched with their camera and lens system are less disadvantaged than those that do not.
-bob
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Well said Bob.
+1

I have a goofy analogy ... back in my reckless youth I raced muscle cars.:eek: A friend bought a small Chevy model with a huge Chevy racing engine installed in an effort to blow the doors off my Plymouth Road Runner. Time-and-again I creamed him ... he went back time-after-time and spent more and more money ... yet never won.

On paper he should have walked away from me right from the beginning ... yet despite vastly out horse powering me, he never got all the parts working together. My "basic stock" car had been throughly tuned, and all performance aspects coordinated by a freelance team of Chrysler engineers for about $250. :)

IMO, optical "horsepower" is just one part of the equation in a digital world.

-Marc
 
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