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Thread: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

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    Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Can the eMotion digital backs be used on a Hasselblad 203FE.

    I know there is a Hasselblad V adapter, and that the exclusively tethered backs can be used, but can the eMotion portable, untethered backs be used on a 203FE?

    The Sinar site specifically does not list the 200 series, only the 500 series.

    Yet people keep telling me that it can be used on the 200 series as a focal plane camera with FE lenses that do NOT have a sync port on the lens.

    As I have had it explained to me, a sync cord is run from the sync port of the 203FE camera body to an "in" sync port on the Sinar eMotion back. Is that all that needs to be done?

    Is this true or not?

    Any help here would be most appreciated.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?


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    thsinar
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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Thanks Billy, appreciated!

    Thierry


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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    The linked quote:

    Marc,

    David is right: it works this way.

    However, we do purposely not mention about the eMotion backs on the 200 series and these configurations are officially not supported by Sinar, mainly because of timing issues.

    Best regards,
    Thierry


    Thanks guys.

    What specifically are the "timing issues"? Is there a sync problem?

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    thsinar
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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Marc,

    What our product manager mentioned to me is that sync problems COULD happen, but not NECESSARILY. In case it happens, you might get around by choosing another time. It seems to be unpredictable to have reliable sync times with this model and from one body to another.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks guys.

    What specifically are the "timing issues"? Is there a sync problem?

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    likely shutter ghosts
    like the Kapture truewide system (need 1/30s and longer)

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    likely shutter ghosts
    like the Kapture truewide system (need 1/30s and longer)
    Holy Moly, that's really a crippling factor.

    I guess it's film and the Imacon 949 for the 203FE "Digital" ... which ain't all bad since I love both the camera AND to shoot film with it.

    (203FE, 50/2.8FE, Kodak Portra 400 @ 320)
    Last edited by fotografz; 23rd July 2008 at 02:27.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    there is still a color richness in film...

    it aint always about resolution and sharpness.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    there is still a color richness in film...

    it aint always about resolution and sharpness.
    Believe me, the resolution is there for images to 40X40 with no problem ... and so is the sharpness from the Zeiss 50/2.8FE ... plus, it never looks "digital" ... LOL !

    In fact, I still like the look of film more than digital ... especially B&W, but it's just not practical for commercial work any more.

    One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was selling my XPan.
    Last edited by fotografz; 23rd July 2008 at 02:27.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Very nice captures Marc -

    Digital is definitely not film digital it is too 'clean' and no 'randomness of grain' which are lovely characteristics of film. You can copy certain film looks pretty well as long as contrast isn't too high and whites aren't too brilliant - as long as it is a fine grain film...sure..but when you want the brilliant blacks and deep shadow tone luster as well as brilliant whites..- its got to be film man. I cant use words to describe what it is about colour film vs colour digital..but it is there too.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Very nice captures Marc -

    Digital is definitely not film digital it is too 'clean' and no 'randomness of grain' which are lovely characteristics of film. You can copy certain film looks pretty well as long as contrast isn't too high and whites aren't too brilliant - as long as it is a fine grain film...sure..but when you want the brilliant blacks and deep shadow tone luster as well as brilliant whites..- its got to be film man. I cant use words to describe what it is about colour film vs colour digital..but it is there too.
    Thanks Peter. BTW, it's "Shots" with film, and "Captures" with digital ...

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Peter, what are you talking about? With correct processing digital backs yield noise that can easily be mistaken for film grain (as it usually happens when I send my pictures to a gallery selling me in Moscow: the curator screams every time that it could not possibly be digital).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Very nice captures Marc -

    Digital is definitely not film digital it is too 'clean' and no 'randomness of grain' which are lovely characteristics of film. You can copy certain film looks pretty well as long as contrast isn't too high and whites aren't too brilliant - as long as it is a fine grain film...sure..but when you want the brilliant blacks and deep shadow tone luster as well as brilliant whites..- its got to be film man. I cant use words to describe what it is about colour film vs colour digital..but it is there too.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    Peter, what are you talking about? With correct processing digital backs yield noise that can easily be mistaken for film grain (as it usually happens when I send my pictures to a gallery selling me in Moscow: the curator screams every time that it could not possibly be digital).
    Irakly - sure clever processing can go a long way - but never really be there in the end. My test would be to show you a scan and see if you can copy the grain effect on post processing..- good luck

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Irakly - sure clever processing can go a long way - but never really be there in the end. My test would be to show you a scan and see if you can copy the grain effect on post processing..- good luck
    I think Peter is right. The 'look' of film is in the cap... I mean SHOT.

    just like audio (sorry again, but I am a physicist) what is called 'dithering' actually helps the brain find detail in noise. Fim, with grain has three characteristics that are different from digital sensors;
    the sensors are random, not regular
    the grain in in 3d that is not in the same plane This is what causes the 'dithering' input that helps the brain integrate and see a sharp image even though in actaulity the lpm charts may not show it.
    The third difference is that the color dyes are richer in what they can produce compared with filters that have artificial cut offs.

    although subtle all these play in the capture/shooting and no post processing of grain injection will duplicate.

    The starkest difference is seen in the look of even analog video vs film, where the regularity and the frame arrangement look more 'lifelike' but also duller.

    Life should be like film; grainy scattered, but FUN



    Regards
    Victor

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    likely shutter ghosts
    like the Kapture truewide system (need 1/30s and longer)
    To be clear, you'd need a Shutter speed of 1/30th, or 1/15th or 1/4 second to avoid "Shutter Ghosting" ... right?

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    To be clear, you'd need a Shutter speed of 1/30th, or 1/15th or 1/4 second to avoid "Shutter Ghosting" ... right?
    that's the way i interpret what Kapture group says for their system
    but if you go to their site they explain in their section on the 'truewide' I think?
    been a while
    anyway, it put me off for location work sounded like a studio only solution

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    To be clear, you'd need a Shutter speed of 1/30th, or 1/15th or 1/4 second to avoid "Shutter Ghosting" ... right?
    Marc

    It would be great if one of us could find an e54LV set up for a Hasselblad to truly determine its fitness before committing to buy. I will look in the Denver area and with some other sources as well.

    Woody

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Marc

    It would be great if one of us could find an e54LV set up for a Hasselblad to truly determine its fitness before committing to buy. I will look in the Denver area and with some other sources as well.

    Woody
    Great Woody! It still isn't quite clear is it? Maybe together we can figure this out.

    There isn't a Sinar Dealer around here to see for myself. Here I am with the means and will, but no way to clearly digitize what IMO, is still the greatest focal plane camera and set of lenses ever made ... Grrrrrr.

    There is aways the CFV-II ... but I was hoping for better utilization of the wides with a 645/22 meg back.

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    thsinar
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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Marc,

    FYI: I have asked again our product manager, for some more details.
    I shall come back asap.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Great Woody! It still isn't quite clear is it? Maybe together we can figure this out.

    There isn't a Sinar Dealer around here to see for myself. Here I am with the means and will, but no way to clearly digitize what IMO, is still the greatest focal plane camera and set of lenses ever made ... Grrrrrr.

    There is aways the CFV-II ... but I was hoping for better utilization of the wides with a 645/22 meg back.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Marc,

    FYI: I have asked again our product manager, for some more details.
    I shall come back asap.

    Thierry
    Much appreciated. Apparently, Woody has some interest also. 2 potential sales right off the bat.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    I've just ordered the Hasselblad adapter for my e75 and plan to use it with the Hassy 201F. Will be happy to share the results when it arrives.

    David

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I've just ordered the Hasselblad adapter for my e75 and plan to use it with the Hassy 201F. Will be happy to share the results when it arrives.

    David
    THANK YOU DAVID

    I'm on pins and needles.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    My pleasure Marc, that's what we're all here for. Not sure when I will get this but I doubt it will be before leaving for San Juan for the workshop on Monday.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Here's trhe explanation of the issue with ambient light. on the Truewide.

    may or may not be the same issue.

    Victor

    ".......Please note: The TrueWide is an outstanding camera when used in the studio with electronic flash at all shutter speeds. There is however an issue when shooting with the H and P series on a TrueWide in ambient light. A shutter speed of 1/30 sec. or slower should be used when shooting in ambient light to avoid possible ghosting of the shutter blades in the image. In the studio using electronic flash there are no issues and any shutter speed can be used because the shutter blades are completely open when the flash sync fires.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Here's trhe explanation of the issue with ambient light. on the Truewide.

    may or may not be the same issue.

    Victor

    ".......Please note: The TrueWide is an outstanding camera when used in the studio with electronic flash at all shutter speeds. There is however an issue when shooting with the H and P series on a TrueWide in ambient light. A shutter speed of 1/30 sec. or slower should be used when shooting in ambient light to avoid possible ghosting of the shutter blades in the image. In the studio using electronic flash there are no issues and any shutter speed can be used because the shutter blades are completely open when the flash sync fires.
    Dear All,
    The TrueWide is not the same as the Hasselblad 200 series camera. The shutter on the TrueWide is a copal shutter which lead to ghosting and other problem when shooting above 1/60 s. The Hasselblad 200 series camear is a cloth type focal plane shutter only allow 1/90 s for flash sync and much faster without flash. I have used the Sinar 54H successfully in the 205 TCC and FCC and never ran into sync problem. The sync cable is very small and can be used with the other medium format systems such as the Contax 645, Mamiya 645, Rollei 6008 and etc.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    Dear All,
    The TrueWide is not the same as the Hasselblad 200 series camera. The shutter on the TrueWide is a copal shutter which lead to ghosting and other problem when shooting above 1/60 s. The Hasselblad 200 series camear is a cloth type focal plane shutter only allow 1/90 s for flash sync and much faster without flash. I have used the Sinar 54H successfully in the 205 TCC and FCC and never ran into sync problem. The sync cable is very small and can be used with the other medium format systems such as the Contax 645, Mamiya 645, Rollei 6008 and etc.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Son, that's a tethered back, not an eMotion mobile back. Sinar lists the V camera as supported for their tethered backs, but only the 500 series for the eMotion backs.

    This is why clarity is required before spending so much on a digital solution specifically for a 203FE.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    this would seem simple enough to test for someone with the Sinar wakeup cable, if thast is needed

    If not, then it all comes down to back wake up, shutter, and sensor readout timing.
    for a FP shutter on 200 series, with even a CF lens (in "F" mode), it would seem that the back either works or not!
    so, maybe even just putting the back on a 200 and seeing what happens with 1/4, 1/30/ 160,1/125 and maybe 1/250 AMBIENT
    then try the flash synch

    Marc is right, too many USDs to not know.
    I too would be curious.

    now, I have the same question for the HB backs and the Phase.

    Victor

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    this would seem simple enough to test for someone with the Sinar wakeup cable, if thast is needed

    If not, then it all comes down to back wake up, shutter, and sensor readout timing.
    for a FP shutter on 200 series, with even a CF lens (in "F" mode), it would seem that the back either works or not!
    so, maybe even just putting the back on a 200 and seeing what happens with 1/4, 1/30/ 160,1/125 and maybe 1/250 AMBIENT
    then try the flash synch

    Marc is right, too many USDs to not know.
    I too would be curious.

    now, I have the same question for the HB backs and the Phase.

    Victor
    I know for sure that the only Hasselblad back(s) that works without restrictions on the 200 cameras is the CFV and CVF-II. The e-film back communication has to be disabled in the 200 series cameras before the CFV will work. You also have to select the 200 series in the CFV menu, which tells me there may be something different about the sync timings required compared to the 500 series cameras.

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Son, that's a tethered back, not an eMotion mobile back. Sinar lists the V camera as supported for their tethered backs, but only the 500 series for the eMotion backs.

    This is why clarity is required before spending so much on a digital solution specifically for a 203FE.
    I agree that more clarity should be given. However, when I was at the show in NY the Sinar representative put my 205 FCC on the eMotion22 and I was able to shoot with it.
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)

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    Re: Need a "definitive" answer: Sinar eMotion on a 203FE?

    Son,
    Glad to hear you've had actual hands on experience where this works. When you get a chance see if you can locate that cable for me. Thanks.

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