C1 and the S2

[robmac]

Some very good points. Could be firmware, as time passes I suspect LR will improve in processing of S2 files, but as time passes so also will the abilities of Phase/Hassy firmware/software, etc. Also, as I think Victor put it - in Solms time moves at a very different pace than in Denmark, Sweden, Israel and now Japan. The latter timeframe being the one the S2's potential mainstream (vs die-hard Leica user) customers dwell in.

As for the CI shots. Sorry, I don't see it. Strictly from an IQ perspective the pulled back shots look nice, but frankly, unremarkable vs other MFDB shots I've seen. The crop of the model's eye also looks over-sharpened and like it was processed with a blunt object.

It's great that at least one dealer is releasing profiles but WTF is Leica doing such that their dealer(s) and customers, none of whom have access to the secret sauce as Jack put it, are the ones needing to cut profiles for the system?

-------
"Here's the keys to your new Maserati sir. Thanks ever so kindly for that money transfer and for picking the car up at the factory. Nice to see a customer on occasion. As you suggest, I do think my daughter will enjoy Harvard Law.

Oh, I do hope all goes well tuning it. Here's the website where you can order some of the tools.

What do I mean? Well, she's a bit rough out of the gate as we say. We had a hissy-fit with our usual factory tuning people and don't talk to them anymore.

Our new tuners? Well, they're outside contractors and, well, kinda busy doing other stuff for other people right now. Between us, they do 'ok' work, but not like a loving owner would do - or our old school tuners.

A Porsche or Ferrari instead? Please, sir, it IS a Maserati afterall.

Take care, feel free to call your dealer with any questions and watch the clutch."

Yes it Leica s problem to convince at least somebody.
But Rob we don t know that the problem is with LR. Let me give you two examples. (1) the DMR ..I thought provided pretty great results in LR2 and it had only had the embedded profile in the DNG . I know it was better in the proprietary software but it was good in LR2 . I never said yuk! I looked at DMR files and S2 in Lr shot at the same time. DMR had great color and depth ,S2 was flat. (2) when the M9 came out no profile in LR2....yuk results hard to balance,flat etc. . Sandy created a profile and immediately decent results. Lr3 comes out results are better . Then the adobe profile. I am going to have another go at C1 verse LR3 for the M9 files but I bet they are both now excellent . I think it will come down to which product is easier to develop expert level skills.

Why are no profiles being shown for the S2 ? Are we sure its the conversion software and not a firmware issue? I thought the S2 was sold by members of the forum but I ve seen zero sharing of processing profiles,presets etc. These must be part of the secret. The only truly impressive files I ve seen came from the capture integration site and where done with Capture One(posted by david kipper). This would be useful in understanding the capabilities of the S2.

 

[glenerrolrd]

If my primary concern was maximum image quality I would look to a view camera and a P65+ ....anything else is a compromise right? It easy to see that both Phase and HB have much more fully developed systems including well developed proprietary software solutions . Either system can provide IQ that is beyond all but the very best photographers . In fact the skills and experience developed over years are probably THE most important factor in deciding between Phase and HB.

But the S2 has a distinctive design . It has the form of a DSLR ,weather proofing and to my touch some of the best ergonomics I have seen. I grew up shooting HB and I lived the MF square format . Anything that I could shoot with a HB would be better than my Leica or Nikon 35mm . But it was harder to shoot Mf and took more dedication so it amounted to probably less than 15% of my shooting. I want to have a MF alternative that I would use. So I am in the camp of deciding to stick with a Nikon D3x plus Zeiss glass (and my M9s ) or move up to an S2.

My only interest in Phase and HB is as a performance benchmark .

So the issue for me and several others is whether the S2 is getting closer to PRIME TIME. The lack of a full range of lenses is IMHO pretty darn stupid ....no wide angle for what a year ? OK but thats old news getting a little closer now. However the lack of demonstrated performance beyond eye sharpness is troubling.

Try as some of have it seems impossible to have a discussion about how to get the most out of an S2 file. Nobody waited on the M8 or the M9 . Does anyone think Leica is listening ? Adobe ..sorry but that not close to being a real solution. So it can really only happen (anytime soon) if the experts choose to work on it.

Please don t read anything into this its not intended as a slap on any tests ,posts or opinions . Merely my intentions and of course my personal POV.

 

[dfarkas]

david my apology I missed them....shame on me roger

Roger,

No worries my friend. Sometimes a single post or two get lost in the sea of commentary.

Just so that we are all on the same page:

http://www.drivehq.com/folder/p6620227.aspx

I put both the C1 ICC profile and the LR user preset on my FTP site for anyone to download.

David

 

[Guy Mancuso]

This will be pretty much color only so your going to need to setup some defaults for it as well , sharpness, noise and such . But the real heart of dedicated software is working from the sensor up and in this case that is not being done. Bottom line C1 see's a S2 as just another DNG which is generic. Your also going to have a way of dealing with artifacts. Get your cloning tools ready. LOL

Good luck but in the end it would be the only program I personally would use regardless of the work that I would have to setup and deal with.

 

[robmac]

Well put Roger.

One can only hope Leica does start listening and quickly. The camera's a very a nice bit of kit from a tech/form factor perspective, but until you can milk the most out of a file vs as Guy indicates, tweaking a generic DNG, and have a whole systems solution (lenses, grips, etc) to give buyers a comfort level as to the system they're buying and it's longevity(*), it's handicapping it's own competitive prospects.

At this juncture in the S2's life we should be seeing more hotly contested debates about the S2's relative handling, speed, buffer and AF performance, form-factor etc., etc., vs Phase/Leaf and Hassy - not ones pertaining to image quality left on the table or "where is the rest of the system?".

(*) A rapid pace of new lens and accessory releases would help give (justifiably) nervous potential buyers a better comfort level that Leica is taking the S2 as seriously and mission-critical TO LEICA as buyers would take the investment TO THEMSELVES vs. say (what coming across as) an interesting '..we'll get to it when we can afford to/want to...' adjunct to the M series.

 

[fotografz]

I wonder if all the S2 users feel they are short changed, and if so, why not band together and make an appeal to Leica/Adobe?

Some years ago, a small group of Contax ND users made an appeal directly to Thomas Knoll because there was nothing from Contax except an odd sensor matched DVD that came with each camera ... featuring an interface that was stone aged at best. Adobe came through and added the Contax ND as a supported camera ... and it wasn't all bad. Contax NDs were pretty exotic and rare compared to all the other main players.

I think main players in MFD software provide support for other formats as much as service to their MFD hardware owners as to the general camera owner base. Most MFD shooters also shoot 35mm digital, and it's nice to be able to process everything with one software solution.

Adobe would do well to pay attention to even the smaller players in MFD like Leica ... because LR will only become the professional industry standard when a photographer can process all of their files in one RAW processor and feel assured the best possible IQ is being attained. Currently C1 holds that title IMO.

I firmly believe LR has the potential to be the lead horse in all categories of processing if they tighten down the profiles for all sorts of cameras .... and especially ANY and all MFD players. While the numbers may be comparatively small, the prestige and dominance factor is high.

-Marc

 

[Mark Gowin]

I firmly believe LR has the potential to be the lead horse in all categories of processing if they tighten down the profiles for all sorts of cameras .... and especially ANY and all MFD players. While the numbers may be comparatively small, the prestige and dominance factor is high.

-Marc

I believe Marc is right. With the new features in LR3, Adobe appears to be making an serious effort to become "the choice" raw processing software for professionals. They now have key elements, such as tethering and lens corrections, in their software to directly compete with the likes of C1 - that is if they expand those elements (and profiles) to all MFD players as Marc suggests. It will take time and who knows if they will ever get there. If nothing else, Adobe's efforts with LR3 makes for good competition which will help spur further innovation in C1 and other raw processors.

 

[Digitalcameraman]

Phase One has been focusing on their own products as most manufactures do. They provide a decent generic DNG profile that we have not disliked. And we have had good luck with other ICC profile floating around out there in Capture One too. In many of test we have done with the S2, many photographers who have been shooting Phase One backs for years, feel it is a solution but wish it could work as fast and stable as Phase One backs do when shooting tethered.

I think Phase One has been very open to us about how to optimize the S2 files to work in Capture One. In the beginning when we first started seeing S2 files had this strange artifact like the texture of a screen on your window throughout the entire image. 15 minutes after we brought these RAW files to the engineers in Denmark, we were told that they had fixed that issue with 5.01 and it was simply a DNG problem. Open the same DNG file in C1 5.01 and the problem was resolved. If they wanted to really not support the S2 as you has insinuated, they could have left this issue in place. News travels fast.

For over 4 years or so we have been able to shoot just about any 35mm camera into Capture One. Does the other brand cameras shoot as fast into Capture One tethered as we would like? Absolutely not. Most of that is due to the type of direct capture interface they have all decided to use, USB instead of firewire. When you use a hot folder to mirror images into Capture One you can expect the image to take any where from 6-10 second to appear on screen. Phase One and Leaf backs can display that tether capture in a few seconds depending on the back and the speed of the computer being used.

Phase One and Lecia both have different agendas. I do not think it has anything to do with the arrogance of each company. Both have a goal to produce the best product they can and sometimes they work independently towards their own goals.

Why put the blame on Phase One for not dropping what they are doing to provide a better custom S2 profile when Lecia has remained silent on that topic pre release and post release of the product? It is their product by the way and I feel it is their responsibility.

We have found that Capture One does a better job at reducing the amount of color aliasing and artifacts because it's algorithm understands these and how to reduce them. Over the last 13 years Capture One has continued to improve image quality and reduction of these with each update. We also find that Phase One backs show more artifacts when used in Lightroom. Many times I have take a number of P1 backs to a demo and when the photographer wanted to shoot or process in LR, even when checking the box to reduce artifacts, it failed to render the files as clean as Capture One does. if you do not like the way Capture One sharpens the file, they give you the ability to turn it off prior to processing. And when I was using LR , there was not a custom ICC camera profile provided by LR. At least with Capture One, there is always a camera profile that makes the color jump off the page and the tools to produce the control of the image quality that professionals and hobbyist expect.

At Capture Integration, we are very enthusiastic about being involved with Leica. There is no silence, we just showed the S2 to 4 prospects last week. They all loved the design, the ergonomics, the smooth shutter release, and the image quality. The only part missing in this line up is the lens options. We have had S2 bodies in stock now for almost 6 months with no sight of the promised lenses to be delivered. Most professionals and hobbyist have recognized this and expect to have a more mature lens offering in order to make this investment. And I agree 100%. We saw the same thing happen to Hasselblad when the H1 was first released. Leica S lenses are some of the finest I have ever seen in my 21 years in the integration of high end digital photography solutions. I know that the Leica S2 will continue to hold a spot in the high end digital photography world. And we will continue to stay on top of the best way to make it work for our customers.


Sincerely,

Chris Snipes
Sales Manager, Florida
Capture Integration
http://www.captureintegration.com

Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More

404.522.7662 Atlanta
305.350.9900 Miami
877.217.9870 National
813.335.2473 Cell

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I believe that this is a valid question ...

Will C1 ever produce a valid profile for the S2? And if so, when?

I understand that Leica has its relationship with Lightroom, but we've all seen the concerns regarding the final files.

Meanwhile, C1 has not added an S2 profile (the current DNG option in C1 is awful) and frankly that is a joke from a software developer that professes on its website to be "designed to create the best image quality in the market and holds a series of easy-to-use tools created to match the professional photographer’s daily workflow".

Leica wants to be seen as the company that places a premium on image quality but doesn't want to utilize the best overall raw processing program out there. While PhaseOne shills a software program that appears to strive to be brand agnostic but doesn't include a profile for the S2 because it is a product that competes against its own backs.

So, in the end, it is the end user that suffers because of the arrogance of two firms that don't want to play together.

Lastly, whatever happened to the enthusiasm for the S2 voiced by Capture Integration when they announced that they would be carrying Leica products like the S2 last year? Members of that organization spoke about how they would be working with those files to determine the best way to process them in C1. Why the silence? My way-to-cynical nature is coming up with some interesting theories.

 

[yaya]

Just a small note regarding what some of you call "profiles". I think it is important to understand the difference between a "profile" and an algorithm that is tuned to handle the raw data.
While some applications come with "profiles" or allow the user to create them for specific cameras, not all of them have got the engine (algorithm) tuned to provide the best results with those files.

Yair

 

[Digitalcameraman]

That is why I referred to them as a camera profile, other wise know as an ICC input profile if you want to speak in terms of color management jargon.


Sincerely,

Chris Snipes
Sales Manager, Florida
Capture Integration
http://www.captureintegration.com

Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More

404.522.7662 Atlanta
305.350.9900 Miami
877.217.9870 National
813.335.2473 Cell

Sign up for our Email Newsletter
Subscribe to our RSS Feed

Just a small note regarding what some of you call "profiles". I think it is important to understand the difference between a "profile" and an algorithm that is tuned to handle the raw data.
While some applications come with "profiles" or allow the user to create them for specific cameras, not all of them have got the engine (algorithm) tuned to provide the best results with those files.

Yair

 

[yaya]

Hi Chris,

I wrote my last comment while you were posting yours, so it was not directed at you. But again an ICC profile is only a color filter and can only handle color and contrast, not detail, aliasing, noise and rendering of certain textures or structures.
BTW Adobe's approach to color is a bit different to Phase's and Leaf's, hence why LR does not provide a set of ICC input profiles, but it still offers a set of "instructions" for interpretation of color from different cameras.

yair

 

[Digitalcameraman]

No problem. Good clarification because I see people confuse the 2 all the time. I like to use the word "recipe" maybe because I like to cook and talk about food so much. LOL.


Thanks


Sincerely,

Chris Snipes
Sales Manager, Florida
Capture Integration
http://www.captureintegration.com

Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More

404.522.7662 Atlanta
305.350.9900 Miami
877.217.9870 National
813.335.2473 Cell

Sign up for our Email Newsletter
Subscribe to our RSS Feed

Just a small note regarding what some of you call "profiles". I think it is important to understand the difference between a "profile" and an algorithm that is tuned to handle the raw data.
While some applications come with "profiles" or allow the user to create them for specific cameras, not all of them have got the engine (algorithm) tuned to provide the best results with those files.

Yair

Hi Chris,

I wrote my last comment while you were posting yours, so it was not directed at you. But again an ICC profile is only a color filter and can only handle color and contrast, not detail, aliasing, noise and rendering of certain textures or structures.
BTW Adobe's approach to color is a bit different to Phase's and Leaf's, hence why LR does not provide a set of ICC input profiles, but it still offers a set of "instructions" for interpretation of color from different cameras.

yair

 

[David K]

Just a small note regarding what some of you call "profiles". I think it is important to understand the difference between a "profile" and an algorithm that is tuned to handle the raw data.
While some applications come with "profiles" or allow the user to create them for specific cameras, not all of them have got the engine (algorithm) tuned to provide the best results with those files.

Yair

I only have a vague idea of what an algorithm is and no idea of how much work is involved in developing one that's optimal for a given back. Is it a big deal or is just that nobody has dedicated the time to do it? While it was still supported I used Brumbaer Tools to convert my Sinar e75LV files and it was a superb, tiny program created by one person who's name I can't recall.

 

[yaya]

...I used Brumbaer Tools to convert my Sinar e75LV files and it was a superb, tiny program created by one person who's name I can't recall.

Stephan Hess website

wikipedia

Yair