Looking at D3X and MF....

[RomanJohnston]

Thanks Tiv!

I am sure the D3X will amaze me...and after I have it figured out, I will be totally blown away with the MF gear. The up-comming 1 week with the Hassy HD4 will probably give me fits...wanting the extra IQ. Thinks have a way of working themselves out...we shall see what the future holds.

Roman

 

[Jack]

One more point: The P40+ and 65+ offer excellent high ISO using their "Sensor +" technology. With it on, ISO 800 is essentially noise-free, 1600 is exceptionally clean and 3200 quite usable. Pushed one stop to 6400 the files exhibit typical high ISO noise, but for many situations that may be the look you're after.

FWIW,

 

[RomanJohnston]

Thanks Jack. That definitly is GOOD information. Now the + mode is cropped down...right? But even so used at it's cropped mode should be quite usable compared to 35MM options.

Roman

 

[Guy Mancuso]

It's not cropped per say . It is quadrupled down in pixel count. Kind of hard to explain but the crop does not change. Now the P40+ is a cropped sensor obviously to begin with but be it Sensor Plus or not the physical size of the sensor does not change it is the pixel amount that does. and Sensor Plus is extremely good at high ISO. See my test on this
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379

I completely given up on 35mm needs with sensor plus. My honest opinion just skip the D3X altogether and just go MF be it Phase or the Hassy 40 which is nice at ISO 800 . If you really need a high ISO camera than a D700 for that purpose alone would be best and your doing 40X 60 prints I would not even try with less than a 40 mpx back to be real honest and not only that your doing it for clients and even more reason . I'm a working Pro and I would not even go back to 35mm even if I had too, I would go flip burgers first but I'm a pig at IQ. Sensor Plus is perfect for all the event work and PR gigs I get that don't need 40 mpx and it's a easy switch to go right to 40 mpx.

 

[kinok1]

Full disclosure - I can only chime in here from one side of the aisle. Having only rented medium format gear - hassy in particular...there was no doubt the image quality is there.

BUT.

The D3X gives me something i hadn't had before. Fantastic image quality in a pro Nikon body. These two factors alone make it for one hell of a image making combination.

As for 40x60 prints. In my experience - the D3X with good glass (think new nikon or ZF) is more than enough. But then again...i've had window installations that dwarf 40x60 blown up from 12mp D3 frames.

 

[RomanJohnston]

Ahhhh...gotcha. Downsampled. That HAS to be really good for the noise then. I have already played with such techniques with my current files and have seen great reductinos in noise...so this is very cool!!!!

As for my IQ and what I can do with what I have compared with MF....um...how do I say this? I dont want to sound full of myself but I have been able to perform what others think is magic with 12MP. Lots of sleepless nights testing...pushing...really putting in the work to find out how to push files to the limit. I am a working pro as well. I am newer at the business, and consider myself running 2 full time jobs...my day job and then my lifes work with my photography.

I think my customers agree...and were not talking about onsie twosie prints here and there or selling a few at art fairs. Last week we got confirmation on a $35,000 order that will be fufilled over the next 3-4 months with a lot more to come after that.

People like what I am doing....and like the quality of my prints as they are. It's me driving and striving further for more....my ethics driving my need to supply my customer with better prints....more detail. They are not complaining....I am.

I dont mind incremental growth. I do understand that MF will blow me away. I know the D3X is a great interum gap filler to get me more business. I know my prints will benifit from both growth steps. I also know I have to spend my money wisely and stay within my means. Personally I have deicded I need both the D3X and the MF options. I will be using the D3X as a springboard into MF...I do not want to be in a situation where I am using EVERYTHING from this order to put me in a MF rig with limited accessorys/lenses and have nothing left to invest back in my business in other ways. This is why I am doing this incrementally. I want my business to succede. It is in a great growth path (which from what I hear is unsusal for landscape photographers in this over populated arena).

Never feel I do not value your info or that I am trying to be argumentitive...I just figure if you know more about me...how I think...my processes...the better we can communicate.

Thanks to EVERYONE for the input you have given...I have found my path based on your great information.

Roman

 

[RomanJohnston]

LOL..I just got it! (like a whack on the side of the head):banghead:

Ya'll are a buncha MF junkies....and you just want to infect another innocent bystander!:thumbs:

(I dont blame you...with just the few files I have played with. It is amazing...crack like if you ask me...lol)

Roman

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Roman couple other things to consider as well Hassy and Phase have dedicated software to squeeze the very last drop out of those files. This is sensor level adjustments on noise, IQ , tonal range the whole nine yards do NOT overlook this part of it. In many ways your only as good as your software will output your files.

And yes we are all on crack. Junkies is a kind word for us. LOL

 

[RomanJohnston]

Thanks Guy...duly noted!!! Conversion is very important...and if they have ways to maximize my return....I will absolutly use it.

 

[aldo]

Coming from Nikon and using Lightroom, Aperture and Nikon Capure NX, I can tell you that dedicated software really makes the difference, specially with color with nikon files. You completely forget about lightroom profiles, colorcheker passport etc etc. Phocus is a really powerful and simple tool to squeeze the very last drop out of those files as Guy said. I don't know if you have phocus installed, but you can download it from hasselblad website (you just need to make a free account). I'm not a landscape photographer, but I could try to photograph stars tonight with my H4D-40 + 35-90mm with ISO 100 and 800 and pass you a couple RAW files so you could try them on Phocus...

 

[RomanJohnston]

That is VERY kind of you Aldo.....

I would be inclined to take you up on that offer.

Roman

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Roman just take your time and if you can try these different systems out than the better you will feel writing a very large check out. Plenty of good dealers here to help with that also.

 

[Jack]

Ahhhh...gotcha. Downsampled.

Not really, rather "binned." Binning take a quadrangle of 4 existing pixels -- so a Red, two Green and one Blue pixel, and combines their values into one single "true-color" pixel. Thus you get very clean, accurate color at high ISO. The crop is identical, but the total pixel count is 1/4th the the total sensor.

Cheers,

 

[dougpeterson]

Full Disclosure: as stated in my signature I am the Head Tech at a Phase One dealer.

Roman, I set up a quick shot using a P30+ on a Hasselblad Body with a wide prime (35mm) while I was packing to go to Ohio for the weekend.
P30+ ISO100-2min
P30+ ISO200-1min
P30+ ISO400-30sec
P30+ ISO800-15sec

I am about to leave for the airport so I will try to get the raw files uploaded for you while at the airport, but no promises.

I think you'll be doing yourself a grave disservice if you invest in a system without testing it specifically for your needs. Each system has it's own strengths and weaknesses. For instance I strongly suspect you'd be very disappointed with the P65+ if you wanted to use it very often at night. At ISO800 for 30 seconds the P65+ performs poorly. The P65+ is, generally speaking, produces the best raw file of any single-shot digital back and performs extremely well at ISO1600 (with 3200 being usable depending on your usage/needs) but it does not perform well for long exposures when combined with high ISO. This sort of thing is why it's critical that you test your potential investment in the situations you'll actually use it in.

At a technical level, the maximum long exposure for any given camera system is not the same at each ISO. For instance a P65+ can exposure cleanly for around a minute (temperature dependent) at ISO50 or ISO100, but at ISO200 I wouldn't go past 40 seconds.

With the P30+ and P45+ the maximum exposure is around an hour (temperature dependent) at ISO50/100 - plenty of headroom when using ISO200/400 to do long exposures.

If you continue to do research, and then do your own testing, I think you will find the P30+ and P45+ are widely regarded, and live up to, the claim of the kings of long exposure.

ISO800 with a D3X is also a file you will very much want to look at before you make any decisions.

I'm sure there are many people here interested in your results if you continue to research and especially if you do your own testing. We'd be happy to provide you a P30+ for free in-person or on a cheap rental (which could be applied towards a purchase). We have a demo P30+ for sale at $8500 with warranty and dealer support.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
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[dougpeterson]

Not really, rather "binned." Binning take a quadrangle of 4 existing pixels -- so a Red, two Green and one Blue pixel, and combines their values into one single "true-color" pixel. Thus you get very clean, accurate color at high ISO. The crop is identical, but the total pixel count is 1/4th the the total sensor.

Cheers,

Binning generally achieves noise reduction which is a 1-stop equivalent better than simply downsizing. This pre-raw-file binning (or binning-on-chip) technology was co-developed by DALSA and Phase One and Phase One owns the patent on it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work

 

[RomanJohnston]

I understand binning....even better. Thanks for the update Jack.

Doug. If any thing I am a researcher. It might be a while, but you can bet I will take you up on the demo offer as I get closer to purchasing a MF system. I will import your info to my outlook for future contacts. MF info is pretty scarce though these days...much harder to find than normal 35MM. But with the prices dropping I am betting the web will become more and more populated with relevant information.

More than likely research will narrow it down to 2 brands and will test based on what I find. I have really liked the phase one stuff from what I have heard about it. I have kind of not looked fondly at Hassy due to the closed system, but then they have some pretty cool tools like the T/S adaptor that is designed for their system, but then I can use Horsman equipment with Phase one backs.

I truly have a LOT to learn. I need to find the widest and best lenses too...and that alone might make all the diffrence as lenses can make or break a system...especially when jumping into the next level of quality is what your paying for.

Thanks for jumping in there and when I get closer...you can look forward to me picking your brain a LOT.

Roman

 

[markowich]

roman,
you might want to look at

http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/camera/page176/s2part4.html

where the 37mpx leica S2 is compared -among others- to the D3x. although some frames in the test are poorly focused, it tells you something about the gain in going from 24mpx to 37mpx....not all that much in resolution.
the D3x is clearly a milestone camera.
peter