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Thread: Looking at D3X and MF....

  1. #1
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Looking at D3X and MF....

    So far looking to upgrade. I have pushed 12MP to a maximum of 40" x 60" for my customers for "fine art" prints. Just landed a VERY large account and the first order should open the door to upgrades. I would like to do my customers right by getting better gear for the print sizes they are asking for.

    Entertaining a D3X or a Hassy H4D-40 with the Widest prime and the 35-90 to start. Eventually upgrading to a few more wide primes so I can use the T/S adaptor in the future.

    I am seriously entertaining landscapes with night views of the stars (usually about 30 second exposures at higher ISO to keep star trails to a minimum.

    Anyone doing that kind of landscape work with some of the newer backs and will ISO's required (800 or so) be way too noisey on the MF units?

    Kinda torn...if it is, I still might go MF just as my normal shooting and get the D3X after the fact when the next big order comes in.

    I am hate spending money, but hate not having the right tool even more...lol.

    Any advice would definitly be appreciated.

    Roman

  2. #2
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Hey Roman, long time no see since we last spoke on DPR! How are you?

    I have been in the same spot as you are now, and ended up with a Phase One & P45+, which I updated to a P65+ and that works great (as did the P45+) both with the Phase camera and as a back only with a tech camera - which, if I remember your landscape work correctly, should be a great option for you to consider as well.

    Whichever way you'll go, Phase or Hassy, once you start working with these files you are in for a treat, but beware of the forum's motto: "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here."...

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanJohnston View Post
    So far looking to upgrade. I have pushed 12MP to a maximum of 40" x 60" for my customers for "fine art" prints. Just landed a VERY large account and the first order should open the door to upgrades. I would like to do my customers right by getting better gear for the print sizes they are asking for.

    Entertaining a D3X or a Hassy H4D-40 with the Widest prime and the 35-90 to start. Eventually upgrading to a few more wide primes so I can use the T/S adaptor in the future.

    I am seriously entertaining landscapes with night views of the stars (usually about 30 second exposures at higher ISO to keep star trails to a minimum.

    Anyone doing that kind of landscape work with some of the newer backs and will ISO's required (800 or so) be way too noisey on the MF units?

    Kinda torn...if it is, I still might go MF just as my normal shooting and get the D3X after the fact when the next big order comes in.

    I am hate spending money, but hate not having the right tool even more...lol.

    Any advice would definitly be appreciated.

    Roman
    Vieri Bottazzini
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  3. #3
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Hey Vieri!

    I have looked at the Phase One gear as well and have quite the lust for a P65+ kit. I do like the T/S the hassy kit has. Have also entertained the Horseman setup too. Hassy though has a pretty healthy kit. (dispite it being a closed system)

    I just got notified that I may have the opertunity for a week with a Hassy kit this fall. If those stars come into alignment, I would think that would push me over the edge.

    As I think about it I might just go D3X to start, with the 14-24, push things with that hard for the next 6 months and then get a MF kit as my relationship with my new clients matures.

    I know the second I start playing with MF files that I have created...that I will as you have pointed never look back....lol.

    Dangerous (and expensive) ice I am treading on...I know.

    Roman

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    Subscriber Member billbunton's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    As someone who recently sold my D3x and 14-24 (and a LOT of other gear) to get a P40+ kit, I'd recommend you either go straight to MF, or don't borrow the Hassy kit. If you get the Nikon gear in the middle, you're just going to regret the money you lost on it :-).

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    I myself never got into the D3X for doing my landscape work. I bought a H3D39 and 28, 100 and recently the HTS. Love this and will further build up that system.

    I actually would rather go for a H4D50 if landscape was my primary work area. Or buy a good used H3D2/39. Because of the larger sensor.

    While a D3X can come close, it finally ONLY can come close to any MF solution. For landscape you do usually not need a fast system like Nikon, so H is pretty perfect and it is fast too (for MF relations).

    Despite that I love my D700 and Nikon glass for lot of other work I do. Kind of keen to see the successor of the D3X though.

  6. #6
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Hey Bill,

    I understand what your saying. I do have to say there are a few points.

    1. I have seen some Elizabeth Carmel's comments sayng having both is actually quite a well rounded kit.

    2. I do need higher ISO for my low light shooting I intend on exploring. (which hasnt been addressed yet in the post)

    3. I can see room for both with my main camera being whatever MF kit I end up with.

    4. I have actually learned a lot trying to get the most I can from smaller files. It pushes me to learn and what I learn can be applied to larger files as I can afford to purchase them.

    My usual gallery print is 30" x 45" and while I know the MF units will get a lot better detail, I remember an old quote about somone who comments on the sharpness of my picture has told me I have failed in giving them somthing else to talk about...or somthing to that effect.

    So not too sure I would "regret" the purchase, but I do get totally what your saying that MF blows away D3X on resolution. I am sure at 16bit I will see better transitions between subtil colors as well.

    Thanks though for your input!!! Well recieved.

    Roman

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanJohnston View Post
    Hey Bill,

    I understand what your saying. I do have to say there are a few points.

    1. I have seen some Elizabeth Carmel's comments sayng having both is actually quite a well rounded kit.

    2. I do need higher ISO for my low light shooting I intend on exploring. (which hasnt been addressed yet in the post)

    3. I can see room for both with my main camera being whatever MF kit I end up with.

    4. I have actually learned a lot trying to get the most I can from smaller files. It pushes me to learn and what I learn can be applied to larger files as I can afford to purchase them.

    My usual gallery print is 30" x 45" and while I know the MF units will get a lot better detail, I remember an old quote about somone who comments on the sharpness of my picture has told me I have failed in giving them somthing else to talk about...or somthing to that effect.

    So not too sure I would "regret" the purchase, but I do get totally what your saying that MF blows away D3X on resolution. I am sure at 16bit I will see better transitions between subtil colors as well.

    Thanks though for your input!!! Well recieved.

    Roman
    Roman, just a quick add-on to what has already been said: if you get the P65+ or P40+, you'll have Sensor Plus for high ISO; on the P65+ it's still 15 MP (more res than a D3), and usable up to ISO 1600 - caveat is, if you also need the speed of AF, the lens range of the Nikon zooms etc, then you are out of luck. Maybe, get a MF kit and a D3 kit (not X), best of both worlds

    There is a good point made re: getting the D3x now, selling it in a short time, loosing money in the process...

    I still have and use my D3 + 4/5 Nikkors for concerts, low light stuff, etc, while MF is for studio stuff, landscape, product, etc.
    Vieri Bottazzini
    Leica Ambassador | Formatt-Hitech Ambassador | ABIPP EP
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Roman, there have been a few posts on high ISO, and long exposure with the H4D 40 on this forum:
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...hlight=iso+800

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...hlight=iso+800

    The message is that both are excellent on the H4D 40.
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

  9. #9
    Subscriber Member billbunton's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanJohnston View Post
    2. I do need higher ISO for my low light shooting I intend on exploring. (which hasnt been addressed yet in the post)

    ...

    So not too sure I would "regret" the purchase, but I do get totally what your saying that MF blows away D3X on resolution. I am sure at 16bit I will see better transitions between subtil colors as well.

    Roman
    I snipped quite a bit out of the quote :-). If you're going to need higher ISO, do NOT count on the D3x. It's a great camera, but a high-ISO camera it isn't. Get a D3s for that. I suspect a Phase back in sensor+ mode is going to be cleaner than the D3x would be at ISO800; I wasn't willing to use mine at 400 if I had the D3 along. Before I decided to go MF I was thinking about selling my D3 for another D3x. I didn't really need any more than the 5 fps the D3x provided. The one thing that stopped me was the occasional need for higher ISOs.

    I was being somewhat tongue in cheek on my "regret" comment. There's really no comparison, but the D3x does pretty much blow away anything else in its class. And the 14-24 is simply an amazing lens. I also had an amazing copy of the 24-70. But the reality is, if you buy the D3x and lens(es) new now, by selling in six months you're going to have lost literally thousands of dollars. Of course, if you're going to keep the Nikon gear along with MF then that's not a concern.

  10. #10
    Subscriber Member Corlan F.'s Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Roman, without getting into the endless DSLR vs. MFDB discussion (i currently shoot a D3X and have to deal on a regular basis with MFDB files), there's one too often overlooked aspect that you might want to put some thoughts into: file handling and processing in your workflow.

    While most modern computers relatively easily handle the ~12Mb (RAW) files from 12Mp sensors, it's already a different story with the ~25Mb files from 20-to-24 Mp bodies, whatever their technology. But in most cases it's still ok.
    Dealing with the min ~50Mb files output by backs such as H4Dd-40 / P40+ can turn into a real PITA if you don't have a powerhouse to compute them. Basic operations such as handling the RAW files and cataloguing is of course slower, but if your workflow includes say, PS with layers and/or actions and/or filters it can become frustrating and time consuming.

    (note: figures above are for lossless compression settings)

    The reason i mention this is that apparently your upgrade path is associated with signing a "very large account". Don't know the details, but upon reading this, the red light for "large batches" and "deadlines" went flashing

    Not saying it's a deal breaker: maybe you already have a super computer with arrays of RAIDS etc., or you will upgrade at the same time. Maybe your workflow (and/or limited number of files) allows you to spend the extra time time on each shot.
    Simply: don't underestimate it.


    That said, re the Nikon side, just a small addition to Vieri's point about the D3 (Vieri i know you did not exactly say this, but there's room for interpretation): if it's true that the D3 and D700 deliver exactly the same results (with more fps and double card slots for the former), the D3X is not only about more pixels. DR in particular is significantly improved, with better in camera HL handling (resulting in smoother operation and exposure). If the new Nikon body would only be used occasionnaly for "speed of AF, the lens range of the Nikon zooms etc", not forgetting about the low light stuff, then i'd recommend the D3S. For the main body, i'd definitely go (and actually did) for the D3X -pixel count, DR. When you already have most lenses and are accustomed to operating a Nikon body, it's a no brainer.

    That is, for the Nikon option. H4D-40 sounds absolutely great and might very well approach a form of ideal in terms of IQ, in certain conditions. With the few caveats like cost (esp for the whole system if you don't own any lens -> ), associated equipement (computer etc.) and accessories, versatility, fps, high ISO and long exposures.

    But after all, isn't all this part of the beauty, and fun, of MFDB?

    (i know, said i wouldn't go there... just a wink )

  11. #11
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Corlan,

    Excellent point and I already have that covered. I am in computer technology as my day job for now. Landcape photography is starting to really take off, but need it to make more than I do now including my insurance etc before I can let go of the safety net of a day job.

    New computer. Quadcore with 8GB of ram, Windows 7 Ultimate and have a nice Drobo attached to it. Have about 8TB of storage available. Nice Raptor doing scratch disk duty. CS5....all the trimmings.

    Roman

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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    I've looked into the D3X as a replacement for MF film kit and my D700. In the end, I've decided I want / need a MF digital to get the file quality and editing headroom I require to be happy about spending so much money. I know the Hassey is more expensive, but for what you describe the H4D-40 sounds like the best overall longterm investment. I haven't personally used the H4D system, but many friends have sent me files that are truly amazing. I also really like what I have seen from the P30+ and P40+ PhaseOne backs, and I'm sure the rest in the plus line is amazing too. The DF body also sounds like a big improvement over the AFDIII. The dynamic range of MF files is a big step up from what I'm used to with the D700 and even drum scanned neg film. Like you, I'm usually of the philosophy that image content and composition should outweigh (a lack of) absolute resolution / sharpness or perfect technique, but I always like knowing that if my skills improve, or if a job requires absolute precision, my tools are up to the task if I am. This is all just a long winded way of saying that, in my experience, it is usually makes long term business sense to buy the best you can afford so you have room to grow into a system and avoid having to upgrade, again, at a later date. Just my 2c.

  13. #13
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Thank you very much tjv. Your words have met listening ears.

    Roman

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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    I just move to the H4D-40 plataform from D700 and D3x (sold the d3x and kept the d700) . Everytime I see the H4D files I know I made the right move... I don't do landscape but I do portraits, and I love to be able to go to 35mm and have the same angle of view as a 21mm or 28mm (depends on the crop) on 35mm but without the distorted lines and faces. I think that's a big plus on the MFD specially for landscape, also the lens corrections tool in phocus is really awesome.

    There's a great promotion on the H4D-40 + 35-90mm kit for $19,995, so basically you have a $7,205.00 lens (a little overpriced lens in my opinion) for just $2,000 (you can re-sell it and gain $5,000 dollars instantly ).

    Beside the price tag of the H4D-40 I have notice the MFD camera bill rapidly increases with other add-ons. For example:...

    - The extended warranty for the 35-90mm lens is $419 for 1 year and $630 for 2 years, the H4D-40 body + back warranty is $1495 for 1 year and $2,990 for 2 years.... thats $1,914 - $3,620 on extended warranty.

    - The H battery grip is another $224.99 (you'll probably need at least 2 more)

    - A 16 GB card just holds aprox. 240 images, so you probably need a 32 GB sandisk extreme pro (really recomended and I think it's a must for MFD). Thats another $389.99.

    - As Corlan F. said, with MFDB files you stop seeing iMac's as an option, but you have that point covered (well you'll probably need more than 8 GB of ram).

    - Of course you'll need a theft insurance for peace of mind, an insurance of a $19,995 gear is no cheap, at least where I live (Mexico) it's around $750 dollars for a year.

    - The LCD is not useless but near useless. Comming from Nikon when I preview my images on the H4D screen I think I'm doing something wrong or I have the doubt if I have the focus where it should be, but everytime I see the images on my monitor they blow me away! So I'm learning to live with that. What I'm trying to say it's that you might need to carry a laptop with you too.

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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    I'm not trying to spend your money, but have recently made a switch to MF digital. My main system was an Ebony 4x5 film camera.

    I have presently kept my D700 with 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200mm lenses and discounted a considerably cheaper move to the D3X, having seen MF digital files from both Hasselblad and Phase backs. Have you tried downloading and looking at some of the web RAW files and fiddling with C1Pro/Phocus to see what they look like?

    I have yet to decide whether to retain, some or all of Nikon stuff. Low light and yachting are scenarios where it will be preferable to the MF. The Leica M8 doesn't present such a strong case to keep!

    I note Vieri's comment about camera movements possibly being desirable for you. Having moved from 4x5 Ebony to a Phase 645DF with P45+, there are times when I struggle to frame and control focus as I would wish. Helicon Focus software helps with static subjects, easy to use, but not as elegant as a touch of tilt! That said it enables tricky 3D scenes to be shot that wouldn't be possible on 4x5. I planned from the outset to add a Linhof Techno at a later stage, when funds allow, to re-enable me to work with movements. These have been an integral part of my pictures for the last 9 years. A Phase back is far easier to use with a tech camera than Hasselblad.

    Hasselblad option is to use the HTS, which is not cheap, but is good. With 28mm lens, HTS and H4D it's a big chunk of kit yielding a 42mm lens equivalent which is as wide as you can go. This might be a limitation for you.

  16. #16
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanJohnston View Post
    I am seriously entertaining landscapes with night views of the stars (usually about 30 second exposures at higher ISO to keep star trails to a minimum.

    Anyone doing that kind of landscape work with some of the newer backs and will ISO's required (800 or so) be way too noisey on the MF units?
    Roman,

    I haven't seen any files from any MFDB that would work for this kind of task. The Phase One P+ backs with Kodak sensors have the best reputation for handling long exposures but the latest 6 micron sensor generation have better high ISO capabilities. Jeff reported that the H4D-40 manages to give acceptable files at exposure times up to 4 minutes at base ISO. Maybe 30 seconds at ISO 800 would still be great with this camera.

    One thing to keep in mind is that excellent 35mm lenses can be used at faster f-stops than comparable MF glass. You would probably need at least one stop higher ISO if you want to keep using the same shutter speed. But with the gain in resolution using the same shutter speed the star trails will be more visible on MF because for the same angle of view you're using a longer focal length on smaller pixels. If your stars traveled over two or three 8.4-micron pixels on your Nikon it's going to be maybe five or six 6-micron-pixels on MFD. What was a slight blur before becomes rather obvious with the added resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    The dynamic range of MF files is a big step up from what I'm used to with the D700 and even drum scanned neg film.
    From what I've seen MFDBs have an excellent dynamic range but I've yet to see a file that compares to what is possible with some of the modern color neg stocks when properly drum scanned.

    -Dominique

  17. #17
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Hummm...thanks for all the info!!!

    I think I have jelled on a plan. I will get the D3X for now (in a month or two) and later (in the next year or so) work on getting a MF setup. I think I will need more than I can truly budget for if I go MF this soon. All the extras get kinda spendy. I also don't want to make a decision on what I can JUST afford, but would rather make a decision on a true kit I can grow with like the Phase One P65+ kit and not feel like I am cheaping out just to get into the MF club.

    I do believe that ultimatly I will be served best by having both kits in the end.

    Thanks again for ALL your feedback.

    Roman

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    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    roman,
    since i have both systems (D3x and P65+), i feel compelled to comment---)))
    well 30" x 45" is possible with the D3x (and the best nikkor lenses) but it is nevertheless threshold. in direct comparism to MF prints you will most definitely see the difference in resolution and color transition, on its own the nikon print will look good.
    hard decision.
    peter


    Quote Originally Posted by RomanJohnston View Post
    Hey Bill,

    I understand what your saying. I do have to say there are a few points.

    1. I have seen some Elizabeth Carmel's comments sayng having both is actually quite a well rounded kit.

    2. I do need higher ISO for my low light shooting I intend on exploring. (which hasnt been addressed yet in the post)

    3. I can see room for both with my main camera being whatever MF kit I end up with.

    4. I have actually learned a lot trying to get the most I can from smaller files. It pushes me to learn and what I learn can be applied to larger files as I can afford to purchase them.

    My usual gallery print is 30" x 45" and while I know the MF units will get a lot better detail, I remember an old quote about somone who comments on the sharpness of my picture has told me I have failed in giving them somthing else to talk about...or somthing to that effect.

    So not too sure I would "regret" the purchase, but I do get totally what your saying that MF blows away D3X on resolution. I am sure at 16bit I will see better transitions between subtil colors as well.

    Thanks though for your input!!! Well recieved.

    Roman

  19. #19
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Hey thanks Peter! I push my files pretty darned hard and sucessfully. My clients seem to like my work and buy it up to 40" x 60" and thats just from my 12MP camera.

    I see a slow growth plan as my move forward. D3X next, my shot and printing diciplines seem to serve me fairly well. I know MF is the end game for me....but I also know the path to that will be selling more work to afford it properly and not some discount or limited package.

    I am sure the D3X will give me better prints in the interum, better DR, and better color as I inch forward.

    Thanks to everyone who has answered as all the information helped me decide the path that is in my best interest.

    Slow and steady will seem to win my race.

    Roman

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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Quote Originally Posted by SCHWARZZEIT View Post
    Roman,

    Idynamic range but I've yet to see a file that compares to what is possible with some of the modern color neg stocks when properly drum scanned.

    -Dominique
    I take your point. Of course you are right; modern neg film does have an amazing latitude. The problem with it (for me) is getting in scanned. I'm always disappointed in the results I get from the labs I am able to send my film to for drum scanning. I think if I had a setup myself I could learn to make the most of film and get the files exactly as I want, but as it stands now I have to rely on other people. This is where digital comes into its own.

    Anyway, Good luck with the D3X. I'm sure it will work well for you!

  21. #21
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Thanks Tiv!

    I am sure the D3X will amaze me...and after I have it figured out, I will be totally blown away with the MF gear. The up-comming 1 week with the Hassy HD4 will probably give me fits...wanting the extra IQ. Thinks have a way of working themselves out...we shall see what the future holds.

    Roman

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    One more point: The P40+ and 65+ offer excellent high ISO using their "Sensor +" technology. With it on, ISO 800 is essentially noise-free, 1600 is exceptionally clean and 3200 quite usable. Pushed one stop to 6400 the files exhibit typical high ISO noise, but for many situations that may be the look you're after.

    FWIW,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  23. #23
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Thanks Jack. That definitly is GOOD information. Now the + mode is cropped down...right? But even so used at it's cropped mode should be quite usable compared to 35MM options.

    Roman

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    It's not cropped per say . It is quadrupled down in pixel count. Kind of hard to explain but the crop does not change. Now the P40+ is a cropped sensor obviously to begin with but be it Sensor Plus or not the physical size of the sensor does not change it is the pixel amount that does. and Sensor Plus is extremely good at high ISO. See my test on this
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379

    I completely given up on 35mm needs with sensor plus. My honest opinion just skip the D3X altogether and just go MF be it Phase or the Hassy 40 which is nice at ISO 800 . If you really need a high ISO camera than a D700 for that purpose alone would be best and your doing 40X 60 prints I would not even try with less than a 40 mpx back to be real honest and not only that your doing it for clients and even more reason . I'm a working Pro and I would not even go back to 35mm even if I had too, I would go flip burgers first but I'm a pig at IQ. Sensor Plus is perfect for all the event work and PR gigs I get that don't need 40 mpx and it's a easy switch to go right to 40 mpx.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Full disclosure - I can only chime in here from one side of the aisle. Having only rented medium format gear - hassy in particular...there was no doubt the image quality is there.

    BUT.

    The D3X gives me something i hadn't had before. Fantastic image quality in a pro Nikon body. These two factors alone make it for one hell of a image making combination.

    As for 40x60 prints. In my experience - the D3X with good glass (think new nikon or ZF) is more than enough. But then again...i've had window installations that dwarf 40x60 blown up from 12mp D3 frames.

  26. #26
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Ahhhh...gotcha. Downsampled. That HAS to be really good for the noise then. I have already played with such techniques with my current files and have seen great reductinos in noise...so this is very cool!!!!

    As for my IQ and what I can do with what I have compared with MF....um...how do I say this? I dont want to sound full of myself but I have been able to perform what others think is magic with 12MP. Lots of sleepless nights testing...pushing...really putting in the work to find out how to push files to the limit. I am a working pro as well. I am newer at the business, and consider myself running 2 full time jobs...my day job and then my lifes work with my photography.

    I think my customers agree...and were not talking about onsie twosie prints here and there or selling a few at art fairs. Last week we got confirmation on a $35,000 order that will be fufilled over the next 3-4 months with a lot more to come after that.

    People like what I am doing....and like the quality of my prints as they are. It's me driving and striving further for more....my ethics driving my need to supply my customer with better prints....more detail. They are not complaining....I am.

    I dont mind incremental growth. I do understand that MF will blow me away. I know the D3X is a great interum gap filler to get me more business. I know my prints will benifit from both growth steps. I also know I have to spend my money wisely and stay within my means. Personally I have deicded I need both the D3X and the MF options. I will be using the D3X as a springboard into MF...I do not want to be in a situation where I am using EVERYTHING from this order to put me in a MF rig with limited accessorys/lenses and have nothing left to invest back in my business in other ways. This is why I am doing this incrementally. I want my business to succede. It is in a great growth path (which from what I hear is unsusal for landscape photographers in this over populated arena).

    Never feel I do not value your info or that I am trying to be argumentitive...I just figure if you know more about me...how I think...my processes...the better we can communicate.

    Thanks to EVERYONE for the input you have given...I have found my path based on your great information.

    Roman

  27. #27
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    LOL..I just got it! (like a whack on the side of the head)

    Ya'll are a buncha MF junkies....and you just want to infect another innocent bystander!

    (I dont blame you...with just the few files I have played with. It is amazing...crack like if you ask me...lol)

    Roman

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Roman couple other things to consider as well Hassy and Phase have dedicated software to squeeze the very last drop out of those files. This is sensor level adjustments on noise, IQ , tonal range the whole nine yards do NOT overlook this part of it. In many ways your only as good as your software will output your files.

    And yes we are all on crack. Junkies is a kind word for us. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  29. #29
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Thanks Guy...duly noted!!! Conversion is very important...and if they have ways to maximize my return....I will absolutly use it.

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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Coming from Nikon and using Lightroom, Aperture and Nikon Capure NX, I can tell you that dedicated software really makes the difference, specially with color with nikon files. You completely forget about lightroom profiles, colorcheker passport etc etc. Phocus is a really powerful and simple tool to squeeze the very last drop out of those files as Guy said. I don't know if you have phocus installed, but you can download it from hasselblad website (you just need to make a free account). I'm not a landscape photographer, but I could try to photograph stars tonight with my H4D-40 + 35-90mm with ISO 100 and 800 and pass you a couple RAW files so you could try them on Phocus...

  31. #31
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    That is VERY kind of you Aldo.....

    I would be inclined to take you up on that offer.

    Roman

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Roman just take your time and if you can try these different systems out than the better you will feel writing a very large check out. Plenty of good dealers here to help with that also.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  33. #33
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanJohnston View Post
    Ahhhh...gotcha. Downsampled.
    Not really, rather "binned." Binning take a quadrangle of 4 existing pixels -- so a Red, two Green and one Blue pixel, and combines their values into one single "true-color" pixel. Thus you get very clean, accurate color at high ISO. The crop is identical, but the total pixel count is 1/4th the the total sensor.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Full Disclosure: as stated in my signature I am the Head Tech at a Phase One dealer.

    Roman, I set up a quick shot using a P30+ on a Hasselblad Body with a wide prime (35mm) while I was packing to go to Ohio for the weekend.
    P30+ ISO100-2min
    P30+ ISO200-1min
    P30+ ISO400-30sec
    P30+ ISO800-15sec

    I am about to leave for the airport so I will try to get the raw files uploaded for you while at the airport, but no promises.

    I think you'll be doing yourself a grave disservice if you invest in a system without testing it specifically for your needs. Each system has it's own strengths and weaknesses. For instance I strongly suspect you'd be very disappointed with the P65+ if you wanted to use it very often at night. At ISO800 for 30 seconds the P65+ performs poorly. The P65+ is, generally speaking, produces the best raw file of any single-shot digital back and performs extremely well at ISO1600 (with 3200 being usable depending on your usage/needs) but it does not perform well for long exposures when combined with high ISO. This sort of thing is why it's critical that you test your potential investment in the situations you'll actually use it in.

    At a technical level, the maximum long exposure for any given camera system is not the same at each ISO. For instance a P65+ can exposure cleanly for around a minute (temperature dependent) at ISO50 or ISO100, but at ISO200 I wouldn't go past 40 seconds.

    With the P30+ and P45+ the maximum exposure is around an hour (temperature dependent) at ISO50/100 - plenty of headroom when using ISO200/400 to do long exposures.

    If you continue to do research, and then do your own testing, I think you will find the P30+ and P45+ are widely regarded, and live up to, the claim of the kings of long exposure.

    ISO800 with a D3X is also a file you will very much want to look at before you make any decisions.

    I'm sure there are many people here interested in your results if you continue to research and especially if you do your own testing. We'd be happy to provide you a P30+ for free in-person or on a cheap rental (which could be applied towards a purchase). We have a demo P30+ for sale at $8500 with warranty and dealer support.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Not really, rather "binned." Binning take a quadrangle of 4 existing pixels -- so a Red, two Green and one Blue pixel, and combines their values into one single "true-color" pixel. Thus you get very clean, accurate color at high ISO. The crop is identical, but the total pixel count is 1/4th the the total sensor.

    Cheers,
    Binning generally achieves noise reduction which is a 1-stop equivalent better than simply downsizing. This pre-raw-file binning (or binning-on-chip) technology was co-developed by DALSA and Phase One and Phase One owns the patent on it.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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  36. #36
    Member RomanJohnston's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    I understand binning....even better. Thanks for the update Jack.

    Doug. If any thing I am a researcher. It might be a while, but you can bet I will take you up on the demo offer as I get closer to purchasing a MF system. I will import your info to my outlook for future contacts. MF info is pretty scarce though these days...much harder to find than normal 35MM. But with the prices dropping I am betting the web will become more and more populated with relevant information.

    More than likely research will narrow it down to 2 brands and will test based on what I find. I have really liked the phase one stuff from what I have heard about it. I have kind of not looked fondly at Hassy due to the closed system, but then they have some pretty cool tools like the T/S adaptor that is designed for their system, but then I can use Horsman equipment with Phase one backs.

    I truly have a LOT to learn. I need to find the widest and best lenses too...and that alone might make all the diffrence as lenses can make or break a system...especially when jumping into the next level of quality is what your paying for.

    Thanks for jumping in there and when I get closer...you can look forward to me picking your brain a LOT.

    Roman

  37. #37
    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: Looking at D3X and MF....

    roman,
    you might want to look at

    http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/camera...6/s2part4.html

    where the 37mpx leica S2 is compared -among others- to the D3x. although some frames in the test are poorly focused, it tells you something about the gain in going from 24mpx to 37mpx....not all that much in resolution.
    the D3x is clearly a milestone camera.
    peter

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