The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

[PeterA]

I have checked the site and am not clear about the following:

1. Can I use any 35mm lens and any MF lens with this camera body?
2. If so how do I change the respective mounts to allow for this?
3. Can I use any MF back - and can I change the mount to use any MF back?
4. If so - how do I change the mount?

Ability to do above is interesting and @ price point of 5K represents an interesting addition to the tool kit for a photographer - IF the flexibility is there and IF the pricing for flexibility is reasonable. I like the inbuilt shutter speed flexibility.

However - this camera relies on lens tilt shift ability for technical use - this is its main limitation for technical shooting.

I am also concerned abotu getting accurate alignment and focus between body and digi back and lens mount - some information about tolerances and proper set-up woudl be interesting.


btw - I dont/rarely shoot professionally - as there are far better ways to earn ones living - I shoot for the love of photography as a hobby which makes me an enthusiast and a happy amateur- please let me know if this camera is only for professional use - whatever that means -

if the Hartblei makers can come ot the forum and answer questions above - it woudl be veery good. Thnaks for your enthusiasm.


Thanks
Pete

 

[David Klepacki]

Hi, I enjoy reading your enthusiasm about the HCAM. I happen to agree with the above response in that the 17mm and 24mm lenses are its main attraction, and that those are indeed very special purpose lenses, often considered too wide for many uses.....but ideal for those who really need it.

For myself, I would be more interested to see how the Leica S2 lenses would look with something like the P65+ or perhaps a multishot back, assuming the image circle is large enough. That would really be interesting. If Hartblei could make that happen, then I think that would definitely attract more attention for it.

Having an adapter for Contax 645 lenses does not really introduce anything new for photographers. People with Contax 645 lenses already shoot them with a Contax 645 body. I don't see any benefit to substituting the Contax 645 body with a HCAM in this instance. As most Contax users know, vibration is not really an issue with their body.

 

[Paratom]

....
The Camera is an electronic device using 21st century technolgy offering
further devellopments for all kind of improvements - it can do about
anything that a MF DSLR can do, but without the limitations of the Mirror in
the way. ....
I do have wonderfull high speed tele lenses for Nikon, but do not have them for Hasselblad( as they simply do not exist) ;-))
...

What limitations do you see with the mirror in the way for tele lenses?
I understand that 35mm wide angles SLR-lenses are a compromise design because the distance between film/sensor and lens to be relativly long and therefore require retrofocus design.
But for longer lenses? If you just mean mirror vibration I think I can clap that mirror away much faster than I could slide a back to the side.

For my taste I dont feel that MF lenses like for example a Hassy 110, or a Mamiya 150mm or aZeis 110/2.0 or Xenotar 80 and 180mm draw anything worse (if not better) than my Nikon 85/1.4 or 100/2.0DC.

The Hartblei seems to work fine for you, and wihout only looking at limitation I would normally look which benefits I get from new equipment before spending a lot of money. I do find that not all the benefits written on paper by Hartblei would seem to be benefits in real life.
"Technology of 21th mill." or "higher tolerances than anything else" or "thinking out of the box" are just phrases IMO.

For me the Hartblei is a well prices (technical) camera without movements with a sliding adapter and some adapter to connect 35mm lenses.
You could use Nikon 35mm lenses long time ago with a Sinar M camera.

One thing I am interested in is how precise is a camera where you have an adapter in the front for the lens and an adapter in the back for the digital back? Why would such a camera be more precise than a camera like the Artec which doesnt need any adapters and where each lens would be adjusted exactly fot the Artec system (including infinity)?

 

[H3dtogo]

In front of the lens there is simply a Canon ( or other ) bayonet with electronic contacts. The back simply features a chosen mount, Hasselblad-H in my case. That is fix and cannot be altered by the user. Other lenses fit by using lens adapters, the same way you mount a leica R lens on a canon or nikon etc.
The more i read here the reactions and replies, the more I get depressed ever having bought that camera. At the moment it feels as a complete waste of money. Oh man, i should never have spent that kind a money on such a worthless camera..... But hey, gues what.... in real life I have already met fellow photographers and after seeing me work with the hartbleicam they were as enthousiast as I am. So maybe a forum is not a good place to express one's enthousiasm. This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people, it is a working tool for those who see the given opportunities and as myself love to experiment, create different styles, do things other than most photographers do. Best is to go to a HCAM dealer and find out what is does for yourself.

 

[thomas]

The more i read here the reactions and replies, the more I get depressed ever having bought that camera.

don't get it wrong. It's certainly a very interessting camera. But it's a special camera in which, naturally, just a few photographers are interessted in. Your enthusiasm is fine but only few will share it.

This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people

so you think creativity resp. the expression of creativity depends on the tools you use? I don't think so. Not at all.

 

[H3dtogo]

Hi Thomas, that is not what is written. It only says that A:This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people. It says not B: you need this camera to be creative.
That is an enormous difference ;-))
In other words, I only want to say that it offers, to already creative people, some extra possibilities to use exotic glass. On the other hand, when using a Tilt Adapter that accepts mamiya, hasselblad or Pentax lenses it also becomes a wonderful pack-shot camera. I used a Tilt adapter in combination with a 30mm and also with my 300 and 500mm wich gave rather exotic results. Maybe not that many people love those great ols lenses, special softnesses, dark corners etc but i really do like the use of old fashioned glass. For my normal photography my H3d and Mamiya DF do a great job, with lots of creative posibilities, but i am also very keen on doing things completely different. maybe it is just me and is that wonderfull camera made especially for me. Now i am beginning to feel very special LOL:angel::grin:

 

[Paratom]

I am sure the Hartblei is an interesting new camera which does some things very well and all that for a good price, but I cant see why it would be the new generation super duper do everything camera.

However it doesnt matter in the end because we both can decide ourselves which equipment we do like and which we dont.

In front of the lens there is simply a Canon ( or other ) bayonet with electronic contacts. The back simply features a chosen mount, Hasselblad-H in my case. That is fix and cannot be altered by the user. Other lenses fit by using lens adapters, the same way you mount a leica R lens on a canon or nikon etc.
The more i read here the reactions and replies, the more I get depressed ever having bought that camera. At the moment it feels as a complete waste of money. Oh man, i should never have spent that kind a money on such a worthless camera..... But hey, gues what.... in real life I have already met fellow photographers and after seeing me work with the hartbleicam they were as enthousiast as I am. So maybe a forum is not a good place to express one's enthousiasm. This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people, it is a working tool for those who see the given opportunities and as myself love to experiment, create different styles, do things other than most photographers do. Best is to go to a HCAM dealer and find out what is does for yourself.

 

[thomas]

Hi Thomas, that is not what is written. It only says that A:This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people. It says not B: you need this camera to be creative.

okay, I see. Sorry for misquoting!

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Pete

here we go. Interesting thread.....;-)
OK-maybe there is something that all the scepticals forget about.
The Schneider electronic shutter stops at 1/60 of a second.
the Rollei/Trimble Shutter stops at 1/300 -1/500 sec.
These are the only ones that you can compare,for full usage of digital photography on MF taking cameras, anything else (Copal mech) is manual, non multishot, prone to defects by temperature if not preserviced, do not generate a wakeup signal (HCam does!), we can run all Digibacks tethered etc.etc.

See here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters.html

Nobody knows how long Copal will even make them any longer, the prices have been raised significantly and will further go up.

Here a little article from Alpa about some irritations coming from mech shutter with hasselblad backs
http://www.alpa.ch/glossary/photogr...elblad-imacon-digital-back-with-the-alpa.html

OK enough of shutters - did I say HCam offers chromafree and nonfringing extreme but also moderate wideangles ? On the opposite let Alpa speak for this- see here:
http://www.alpa.ch/en/glossary/photographic-know-how/color-shift-color-cast-lens-cast.html
Superiority of lenses which are unable to deliver undamaged images unusable without electronic corrections ? Who´s kidding here.....;-)))

Sometimes I am joking about our Cam - try to look at our HCam as a big brother to th Panasonic GF1,The Ricoh module system or the Sony Nex.
What we do is not Micro Four thirds, this is Makro four thirds for big boys...

and finally there are more lenses allowing movements on our HCam than any of the existing Schneider and Rodenstock Linos together. Use a Mirex or a Zörk adapter and throw the whole package of existing Zeiss V,Pentax 67,Pentax 645 ,Mamiya645 and.....plenty more at it.

and finally it´s really amazing that people who discuss literally years about future "maybe to come " Schneider or Rodenstock lenses which may offer some more mm of movements suddenly ignore if there are full format P65+s delivering 135 degr,of image angle with movements.

as Spock would say : fascinating - or as Orwell called it "Zwiedenk"....

Greetings from right now Venice on the way to the Shanghai Interphoto where the new technology for the west is made.

Stefan Steib- Hartblei

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
if the Hartblei makers can come ot the forum and answer questions above - it woudl be veery good. Thnaks for your enthusiasm.


Thanks
Pete[/QUOTE]

 

[Paratom]

Yes Stefan,
as mentioned before that it is very interesting for anybody who wants to go really wide to use a 17mm lens on MF.

Is the Nikon 14-24 fully usable on a MF sensor?

I bet you guys have tested many lenses - do you have maybe a liste of recommended lenses which shows the image circle?

I know that it is not hard to get dark corners when I use my Nikon 24mm PCE on my 35mm sensor - so I wonder how much T/S capability would be left on a MF sensor.

If one is more interested in the 35/40mm range (like me) - which would be the recommended shift lens for your new cam and how much T/S would it allow?
I read that you get 10mm on a 35mm sensor with the Hartblei 40mm IF lens which seems to be a MF lens-but that would barely allow any shift on a MF sensor?

I do own a tech camera right now but if your Hartblei can do the same like my Artec with 40mm Rodenstock than it could be worth the switch and save me some money.

Thanks for some answers - I asked critical questions before in this thread (not because I would see the Hartblei cam as an interesting thing but more because I felt the description has been very much in one direction. A balanced description mentioning the capabilities but also the limits would be very helpful) - but I am still interested in this new product.

If you talk about using all kind of MF lenses with a Zörk Adapter- how much T/S do you really get? How usable are the corners?

Regards, Thomas

 

[H3dtogo]

Hello Thomas, untill now i have not tested any nikon TS lens yet, but I did test the Canon 24mm as can be seen above. I am pretty happy with the result, certainly when printed on my epson. The canon 24 is in a total different ballpark then the Nikon 24 ( I always thought after testing the lens when i bought it last year that canon would come out with a Big Sensor camera). The 17mm is a lot less, at least my copy, but there seem to be better 17mm TS lenses on the market. I specially love the use of vintage lenses and only for that purpose already, it is a dreamcam ;-))
I do hope canon will replace it's aged 45mm TSE very soon, or maybe i just have to order the 40mm Hartblei/Zeiss superrotator.

 

[Paratom]

Hello Thomas, untill now i have not tested any nikon TS lens yet, but I did test the Canon 24mm as can be seen above. I am pretty happy with the result, certainly when printed on my epson. The canon 24 is in a total different ballpark then the Nikon 24 ( I always thought after testing the lens when i bought it last year that canon would come out with a Big Sensor camera). The 17mm is a lot less, at least my copy, but there seem to be better 17mm TS lenses on the market. I specially love the use of vintage lenses and only for that purpose already, it is a dreamcam ;-))
I do hope canon will replace it's aged 45mm TSE very soon, or maybe i just have to order the 40mm Hartblei/Zeiss superrotator.

So you have a v-mount and a v to canon adapter or do you have a canon mount?

 

[H3dtogo]

The front mount is Canon, as you need electronic contacts to set the apperture. Canon also accepts nikon mount lenses via an adapter ( ebay or calumet or so). Then i also have a pentaconsix and mamiya to nikon adapter. Works great. Back mount is Hasselblad H as i really love to use multishot backs for art reproduction.

 

[Stefan Steib]

Thomas

the interesting part with the Superrotators is that actually you can shift and tilt more as with a 35mm camera, on the HCam as there is no mirror and mechanics in the way. The "hole" with the Canon EF mount on front is nearly completely empty, only the electronic contacts of the lens are on the bottom.
we also have improved this as we found out that the outer 3 of them are empty spare so we cut them off, leaving a total flat part at the bottom and gaining another 5-6 mm of upward shift.
Depending on the size of your chip, you may use the full 10mm shift downwards, maybe 8 upwards (-2 because of the contacts) and about 5-6 to both sides (all numbers with the 24mm, but the 40mm IF HartbleiZeiss is similar)
And then you still can flatstitch (Hartblei 40 on tripod mount= parallaxfree even on macro!) and can remove the vignette creating an actually virtual larger image circle with 2x10mm movements to all directions.
This is also something nobody else can do (exception: you use a viewcamera but this solution will cost you a multiple of 2x or 3x of our costs)

This is also the answer to one question earlier in the thread, yes we have back movements: as soon as you use our Hartblei superrotators with the clamps the camera moves freely acting as a movable back.

see animated gif on our website

http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm

regards
Stefan

 

[Paratom]

Thanks for the info Stefan.

 

[chiek]

Hi H3dtogo.
Are you Dustbak in LL?

 

[H3dtogo]

No, but he is a friend of mine.

 

[Paratom]

I wanted more T/S capability and thats why I have just replaced my Rodenstock 35 with the 40HR.
Still find the Hartblei interesting so maybe you guys find some time to post some more images made with the Hartblei+Canons and post some more experiences with time.

Thomas

the interesting part with the Superrotators is that actually you can shift and tilt more as with a 35mm camera, on the HCam as there is no mirror and mechanics in the way. The "hole" with the Canon EF mount on front is nearly completely empty, only the electronic contacts of the lens are on the bottom.
we also have improved this as we found out that the outer 3 of them are empty spare so we cut them off, leaving a total flat part at the bottom and gaining another 5-6 mm of upward shift.
Depending on the size of your chip, you may use the full 10mm shift downwards, maybe 8 upwards (-2 because of the contacts) and about 5-6 to both sides (all numbers with the 24mm, but the 40mm IF HartbleiZeiss is similar)
And then you still can flatstitch (Hartblei 40 on tripod mount= parallaxfree even on macro!) and can remove the vignette creating an actually virtual larger image circle with 2x10mm movements to all directions.
This is also something nobody else can do (exception: you use a viewcamera but this solution will cost you a multiple of 2x or 3x of our costs)

This is also the answer to one question earlier in the thread, yes we have back movements: as soon as you use our Hartblei superrotators with the clamps the camera moves freely acting as a movable back.

see animated gif on our website

http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm

regards
Stefan

 

[RomanJohnston]

I have to look STRONGLY into this. I can imagine this with a 40MP back, add the 14-24 and the Canon 17MM T/S and the Nikon 24T/S and being very happy if it works as you discribe.

Could save me a ton of money using my current lenses and less expensive 35MM top glass.

Thank you very much for the input.

Roman

 

[H3dtogo]

The nikon 24mm will probably not have that extreme image circle as the canon has. Also, the nikon and the canon need electronics to set aperture, there are manual set adapters to set apertures but it seems easier to use the canon 24 with it extreme large image circle. Dont know about the 14/24 image circle, peobably not very bigger than the 24/36mm frame. ;-((