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Thread: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

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    Exclamation The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    The HCAM B1, also known as the Hartblei camera is for me the camera that changed almost everything, and all in the better way.
    But first some short history.... In the late nineties when MFDB was the only proper way to shoot digital on a professional level, there was not that much to chose between when one not only wanted to use the very restricted amount of MF lenses but also wanted to use all sorts of great 35mm gear. There was the KG ThrueWide and the Digiflex1 and 2. All accepting Hasselblad-V digital backs and Nikon lenses ( or all Nikon mount lenses ). From that time on I started using them to achieve a particular style, look in my images. Although they were both +/- 34/36 to 36/36 mm size mounts, they where and still are wonderfull pices of equipment for those wanting to achieve a different look in studio and fine art photography. I still have two Digiflex2 bodies of wich one is hardly used and put up for sale( without succes ;-)) ). But that was then and then there was the HCAM B1!!!
    I have used every camera ever produced, i have had a Rollei SL66 converted to accept Hasselblad CF backs, I have a Kiev88 digital, all sorts of digital cameras, self made contraptions and combinations of bits and pieces available on the marked..... Then, a few days ago the B1 arrived at my studio. I already had been testing pre-production samples thanks to the always helpfull and most knowledgable person I know in the Bavarian highlands: Stefan Steib. After shooting some architecture and industrial stuff back then in spring of this year, I immideately ordered my copy of the B1.
    Now, what is so very special about that camera body you may ask... and the short answer is: almost everything. It is a hand made, relatively heavy but also completely vibration free rock of camera technology unseen and un-precedented. The camera sports a 35mm lens mount (canon as it is the widest in my case) and a digital back mount for any back from Phase, leaf or Hasselblad at your choice. Mine has Hassie-H so I can use all my Ixpress, Phase and H3d backs on it. Power is supplied by the well known Sony Info Lithium-L series batteries( or clones). There are three control panels on the camera, one on the lefthand side for the on off button, sliding back, display illumination and opening the shutter (this one is without display, just buttons). A second one on top of the camera controls the apperture and setings of the Canon TSE lenses. The third and largest control display allows special camera functions and speed settings ( up to 1/4000 of a second, thruly amazing when using high speed lenses such as varius 1,4 tele lenses... but more on that later.
    Here are to conclude part one some images of the HB1.
    Last edited by H3dtogo; 26th June 2010 at 08:17.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    In the second part I will show you my first test shots from yesterday and this morning:
    The building was shot using the 24mm TSE-II from canon at almost full shift, that is just on the last big marking line one the scale ( there are two mm more available but I did not go that far). Images were shot at F11 ( first was a HDR of three images as can be seen in the crop) This one might also be shifted all the way.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    In studio I tried my very old Nikon 85mm 1,4 Ai, wich has dropped to the concrete floor many times( not accepting filters or shades anymore at 2,0 and one of my favorit lenses, the russian 85mm 1,5 fully opened and stopped down 1,5 stops ( see the spinning background)

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Looks cool! I checked on the Hartblei website and couldn't find any info on it - could you please point to any webpage with specs, pricing, etc etc? That would be most appreciated and really helpful: it looks like a great tool indeed

    Thanks in advance!
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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    http://www.hartblei.de/en/index.htm
    This is the hartblei website. I have the latest version, with aperture control for Canon lenses. Just look at the corner details. maybe I even have not got a very good copy of the 24mm. I also have done some 17mm shooting but these results are for tomorrow...

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Now we can use those great old lenses again, shoot 1,4 in studio, have a decent ultra wide by using the remarcable canon 17 and 24mm lenses, use whatever focusses on the extreme bright and easy to focus focussing screen. I know i have many special lenses, all delivering spectacular results on the Horseman Digiflex2 and now even better on the Hartbleicam HCAM B1.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    http://www.hartblei.de/en/index.htm
    This is the hartblei website. I have the latest version, with aperture control for Canon lenses. Just look at the corner details. maybe I even have not got a very good copy of the 24mm. I also have done some 17mm shooting but these results are for tomorrow...
    Thanks! I don't know why, but I got on a completely different site - without any sensible info about anything... Will look into it then, thanks!
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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Vieri,

    Try this: http://www.b3kdigital.com/HCam.html

    It's a Canadian dealer, but has more details for the camera.

    Steve

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Also there was this little review on The LuLa, from December 2009

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    It's this one, right?

    http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm

    Another view on the cam (hope it's kosher to link to another site):

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...blei-cam.shtml

    EDIT: I never saw the answers above before posting...

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    In Belgium we have Pro Spirit as official dealer. Camera costs about 5K euro, a bargain for such a device. The LuLu review was about the Pre-apperture control camera, my findings are about the curent available camera. I will be testing other lenses in the next weeks, have the 30mm Zodiak fish eye already prepared for testing, also some Russian Hartblei lenses will be tested and hopefully I will also get hands on the real new Hartblei Super Rotators with Zeiss glass.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    If someone is really interested, just come over here and we will have a good time playing with the HCAMB1.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    The thing I really get exited about is that this camera, in oposite to just another digital back, wich only gaines a very little bit of high iso and pixels, opens a total new approach to digital photography. Many photographers still are in the stadium they think that only the newest digital H4d-40Mp or Phase DF-60Mp will offer the right oppertunities but let me tell you: no client will see the difference between a proback and a H4d-60Mp when printed. For what concerns images shot with exotic lenses such as Zeiss biotar on a HcamB1 or a super rotator, a 17mm on a 22Mp back: THAT ARE THE VISIBLE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN YOU AS A PHOTOGRAPHER AND THE NEXT EXPENSIVE GIZMO BUYER. ( sorry for shouting but during my workshops, students also tend to underestimate the creative aspect en emphasize the trend-spend-a-lot-of-cash-camera-buy-nonsense. I have never seen a colleage earning more money after upgrading to the next megapixel monster, but have seen many doing so by entering the creative highway.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    According to the replies in this thread there is very little interest in having MF camera that can shoot a 17mm or 24mm shift or tilted, that can use F1,2 lenses, 600mm telephoto lenses, Imagon, Biotar, leica, and so much more. :-((

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    According to the replies in this thread there is very little interest in having MF camera that can shoot a 17mm or 24mm shift or tilted, that can use F1,2 lenses, 600mm telephoto lenses, Imagon, Biotar, leica, and so much more. :-((
    Well, IMHO, though I understand your excitement and while this is probably a very good camera in its own, in reality I can see a few reasons why people might not be as excited as you expected them to be:
    - you posted your thread 5 hours ago, not such a long time even for those excited to express their excitement
    - the camera itself, though interesting:
    -- is very limited in application;
    -- doesn't offer much more to people who already use a technical camera (which is the user base the Hartblei targets); in particular:
    --- offers much less lens/camera movements for those who need them;
    --- is basically a multi-mount 35 mm lens camera (with a limited park of usable 35 mm lenses at that) with a larger sensor on its back;
    so:
    - for technical users, is way undeveloped as far as movements; doesn't let you (yet?) use the fantastic Rodenstock & Schneider glass;
    - for 35 mm users, say a Canon user: compared to using a Canon you lose AF, metering, automations of all sorts, portability, lens range, in order to gain a few Mp;

    This are the reasons that pops to my mind why people might not be that excited about it... Myself, I find it a very interesting experiment and will look into it some more, but I don't see it yet replacing my Phase kit nor my Silvestri kit nor my D3 nor my Leica film kit - all are great for their different uses, and this Hartblei for the moment being doesn't seem ready to replace any of the above systems in my bag. Will keep watching though, where there is innovation there is always something interesting to see and look for

    Just my .02...
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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    --- is basically a multi-mount 35 mm lens camera (with a limited park of usable 35 mm lenses at that) with a larger sensor on its back;
    so:
    Yup. Thanks for that, Vieri.

    I was getting confused.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    But that is indeed just the great thing about it: lots of DSLR lenses from Canon, Zeiss, Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad, Mamiya, etc do simply fit the camera. No way to use a 75mm Biotar on a MF back, no way to get an 17mm Wideangle on a full frame sensor, nor a 24mm fully shifted, nor a 85mm 1,4 Nikon or Zeiss. It is a Vibration free system, speeds up to 1/4000 sec, multishot capability, custum made...... no other camera offers such thing.
    Applications are much more than any other MF set, as no other does have a 17/24/35/40/80/85/120mm tilt shift lens assortment.
    No other camera takes all MF glas, or in general all glas ever produced.
    No Silvestry, Sinar or other TC is built to such tight limits ( the electric sliding back assures that every time you focus and gently press the button, the sensor is at the exact same place.
    I admit, my Sinar P2 and Linhoff 679cc do offer much more movements but at an other working pace, ergonomics, limitaions of all kinds etc. (thats why i am selling my 679cc, I don't get to use it enough to justifie its presence in the studio).
    I have never seen a camera with such unlimited possibilities as this one before.
    But I think the only way is to test drive it yourself. ;-))

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Dear H3dtogo,
    5 hours ago you posted the first in this thread. 2 hours ago I found it. Now, I've had my eyes opened to more possibilities than moving back to 4x6 film, which I have been considering. H's and P's I have seen, but nothing like the Hartblei. I have thoroughly enjoyed the last 2 hours of investigation; Thank You!

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    I think its an interesting camera and you get 17mm which you dont get with other MF tech cameras.
    The price seems ok too.

    Regarding shooting all kind of 35mm-lenses on it (like a 85/1.4 Nikon) do you see many applications for that? And how many would have an image circle large enough?

    I am impressed that those 35mm T/S lenses seem to do a good job even compared to the more expensive Schneider and Rodenstocks. At least I read this somewhere else I think.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Almost all telepphoto lenses do have extreme large IC, some zoomlenses aswell ( such as the Contax 75/300 and many others. The ease of use, the enormous amount of lenses available for use on it and the many unexpected creative possibilities are to me a big plus compared to many other offerings on the marked.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    I find the Hartblei quite interesting but I do not understand several points:
    1) why would a motorized sliding back be more precise than a manually moved one?
    I would expect that motors or cylinders to move the back cant be very strong - so I guess the sliding system itself must not be too tight to allow the motors to move the back - this is why I would wonder how you can achieve this and still have tighter tolerances.
    The other question is-are tighter tolerances of any use. The Artec for example seems to work totally fine.

    2) for use of non T/S longer lenses why would you not want to use a MF DSLR system with a nice viewfinder?

    3) how much T/S capability do you have left when you are using T/S lenses which are designed for 35mm with a larger sensor?

    The main arguments I see for the Hartblei is than can go very wide and relativly "low" cost compared to other tech cameras, but therefore you are very limited regarding T/S lenses - because you do not have any movements in the camera.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Other than the price, what advantages are there in a HCAM compared to the Sinar M?

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    I find the camera very interesting but I have to consider if this new piece of equipment, along with the added cost, will greatly expand the abilities I have with my current equipment.

    I think with all the new platforms, digital backs and lens that have entered the market over the last two years, there is probably a great deal of equipment fatigue among professional photographers. I know that I'm tired of hearing and reading about the "next big thing", and I am a self proclaimed tech junkie.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Other than the price, what advantages are there in a HCAM compared to the Sinar M?
    All lens mounts are possible, all brands of digital back can be mounted in all camera mounts, it takes the 17 and 24mm TSE lenses from canon, a Contax645AF lens adapter with aperture control is in the pipeline, it is still in production and in constant evolution..... feel free to jump over the border and look for your self.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!


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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Another very important advantage of the HB to me is the ability to use really high speeds, not limited to the 1/125 or 1/400 at best with copal shutter( the only mechanical shutter left). I can shift the Canon 24mm about 20mm without any problems. Maybe the Sinar or Alpa offerings seem nicer on paper, nut in reality, day in day out use, they only represent technology and a workflow from a long gome era, even another millenium. I can easely do some food shots with high speed lenses, architecture with the most extreme wide angles available today (I am sure canon and nikon will release others in future), do Fine Art with my Vintage lenses, do extreme telephoto photography and all of this with one camera, without having to reattach my back, spending hours on reconstructing a camera, using silly optical viewfinders that only give an idea of what will be captured. Maybe some of you have also noticed no color shifts, even when shiftinf 12mm with the 24mm, 8 with the 17mm and I can keep on going about the advantages of this new camera in oposite to the other camera's on the marked. When a camera is used as a tool to do a job, the photographer is not interested in Cherywood or Rosewood grips, nor in Time consuming set-up and workflows. it is all about having an universal tool that gives you real advantages over the other offerings.
    A client will not be impressed about the next aluminum frame to attach a lens and back, a pine or cherrywood grip, neither about the fact that some fine art photographer ( rich dentist :-)) ) uses that other camera. At the end of the day the result is what counts. I still have my Cambo Wide DS ( also up for sale with the extremely sharp 47mm, a bargain for one who is looking for such a camera) and used to have the Rm3d, aswell as other Wide camera's. I even had a Sinar original P2 sliding back converted to a Wide camera ( yes, it was the father of the Arctec :-)) ) but all these cameras only serve one specific, extremely limeted cause and in a before the year 2000 like workflow.
    Last edited by H3dtogo; 27th June 2010 at 01:09.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Another 24mm/11 mm shifted F11. Focus was at the red brick building but just look at the crop with buildings a hundred or so meters further. The 24mm is a Canon lens, used allmost fully shifted on a 37/46mm sensor attached to a body that can accept within seconds several other T/S lenses or even long focals to ake detail shots. There also are several Shift adapters that accept Hasselblad, Kiev, Zeiss Jena, Mamiya and Pentax lenses, all of them great optics offering lots of shift capability for almost for free. I often used a 120mm macro on my digiflex, a lens that also works great on the HCAM B1 as do many others.
    Last edited by H3dtogo; 27th June 2010 at 01:27.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    All lens mounts are possible, all brands of digital back can be mounted in all camera mounts, it takes the 17 and 24mm TSE lenses from canon, a Contax645AF lens adapter with aperture control is in the pipeline, it is still in production and in constant evolution..... feel free to jump over the border and look for your self.
    Thanks for the generous offer (I am neither rich nor a dentist ).

    I might take you up on your offer after the summer.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    Another 24mm/11 mm shifted F11. Focus was at the red brick building but just look at the crop with buildings a hundred or so meters further. The 24mm is a Canon lens, used allmost fully shifted on a 37/46mm sensor attached to a body that can accept within seconds several other T/S lenses or even long focals to ake detail shots. There also are several Shift adapters that accept Hasselblad, Kiev, Zeiss Jena, Mamiya and Pentax lenses, all of them great optics offering lots of shift capability for almost for free. I often used a 120mm macro on my digiflex, a lens that also works great on the HCAM B1 as do many others.
    can you post 100% crops, center and corner, with and without shift? thanks, peter

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    can you post 100% crops, center and corner, with and without shift? thanks, peter
    I will have to take pictures for that. I can take some more crops out of that picture but for the moment i do not have such images.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    Another very important advantage of the HB to me is the ability to use really high speeds, not limited to the 1/125 or 1/400 at best with copal shutter( the only mechanical shutter left). I can shift the Canon 24mm about 20mm without any problems. Maybe the Sinar or Alpa offerings seem nicer on paper, nut in reality, day in day out use, they only represent technology and a workflow from a long gome era, even another millenium. I can easely do some food shots with high speed lenses, architecture with the most extreme wide angles available today (I am sure canon and nikon will release others in future), do Fine Art with my Vintage lenses, do extreme telephoto photography and all of this with one camera, without having to reattach my back, spending hours on reconstructing a camera, using silly optical viewfinders that only give an idea of what will be captured. Maybe some of you have also noticed no color shifts, even when shiftinf 12mm with the 24mm, 8 with the 17mm and I can keep on going about the advantages of this new camera in oposite to the other camera's on the marked. When a camera is used as a tool to do a job, the photographer is not interested in Cherywood or Rosewood grips, nor in Time consuming set-up and workflows. it is all about having an universal tool that gives you real advantages over the other offerings.
    A client will not be impressed about the next aluminum frame to attach a lens and back, a pine or cherrywood grip, neither about the fact that some fine art photographer ( rich dentist :-)) ) uses that other camera. At the end of the day the result is what counts. I still have my Cambo Wide DS ( also up for sale with the extremely sharp 47mm, a bargain for one who is looking for such a camera) and used to have the Rm3d, aswell as other Wide camera's. I even had a Sinar original P2 sliding back converted to a Wide camera ( yes, it was the father of the Arctec :-)) ) but all these cameras only serve one specific, extremely limeted cause and in a before the year 2000 like workflow.
    Seems you like the HCAM B1 - allthough I am surprised how limited you judge the other cameras listed.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Lets get real, only 1/125 sec max, no computer guided operation, no multishot, no easy to use range of almost unlimited lenses( in comparison to schneider and Rodenstock offerings), no lit operation buttons,... I really loved my Rm3d and Cambo Wide but they are simply created for only one purpose. Now with my Hartbleicam I have a camera whose possibilities are only limited by my own imagination and creativity. Try both the wide angle shot and the studioshot with only one camera, as one cannot mount those wonderfull Biotars to any MF camera, even with more camera's that would not be possible. The Sinars and Alpas, Arcas and Cambos are all wonderfull pieces of craftmanship, but the Hartblei is the one made to earn money. ;_)))))
    I certainly do not want to let you think i have anything against the other wide camera's but it is just in my (probably limited) experiance that now there is a working tool, that for the first time in many years, offers so many new creative possibilities, that is grounbreaking different from all other cameras on the market. That is why i am so exited about this new camera. I think one has to work with the camera, explore it's almost unlimited possibilities to understand it's real potential. As they seem to be delivered to dealers worlwide at the moment, maybe those interested go look for themselves. Feel free to contact me for more info as i really love this new tool. :-)
    Last edited by H3dtogo; 27th June 2010 at 12:32.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    Lets get real, only 1/125 sec max, no computer guided operation, no multishot, no easy to use range of almost unlimited lenses( in comparison to schneider and Rodenstock offerings), no lit operation buttons,... I really loved my Rm3d and Cambo Wide but they are simply freated for only one purpose. Now with my Hartbleicam I have a camera whose possibilities are only limited by my own imagination and creativity. Try both the wide angle shot and the studioshot with only one camera, as one cannot mount those wonderfull Biotars to any MF camera, even with more camera's that would not be possible. The Sinars and alpas, arcas and Cambos are all wonderfull pieces of craftmanship, but the hartblei is the one made to earn money. ;_)))))
    why 1/125 max?
    compared to a tech camera the Hartblei is quite limited if you want to use tilt shift since you have no movements in the camera and there are only few 35mm T/S lenses with such an image circle.

    If you do not want to use movements for longer lenses why not just use a MF digital SLR? Why use a sliding back which means a massive time between focusing and taking the image meaning its just good for stills?

    And which of those various lenses offer something you could not achieve with a Hassy/Schneider/Zeiss lens on a MF SLR or Rodenstock/Schneider on a tech camera in case you wanted movements?

    How would the Hartblei shoot multishot with a back that could not do multishot on any other camera?

    I still see the Hartblei as a good option if one needs very very wide AND I see it as a good option price wise if one wants a camera with 24 mm T/S for MF-Back. for reasonable money.

    Do you feel the Canon T/S are up to the Rodenstock and Schneider lenses IQ-wise?

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Most Copal shutters only go to 1/125 sec, 1/400 max. The existing solutions like Schneider (fastest 1/60 sec) and
    Rollei(fastest 1/125, and who knows how long this will be built ?)

    The Shorter Rodenstock or Schneider lenses do not really have movements for
    the praised Sinar(or Cambo,Arca whatever) on big MF chips ! The Canon´s on
    the Hcam do !

    The Camera is an electronic device using 21st century technolgy offering
    further devellopments for all kind of improvements - it can do about
    anything that a MF DSLR can do, but without the limitations of the Mirror in
    the way. The old mechanical Cameras represent a line of
    technology that really started in the 19th century- there is no further
    devellopment for mechanics to work with Digital.


    I do have wonderfull high speed tele lenses for Nikon, but do not have them for Hasselblad( as they simply do not exist) ;-))
    Maybe I am one of the few photographers that first sees oppertunities when discovering a new tool instead of trying to find reasons why not to buy one. That is why there are so many canon, nikon and hassie mamiya photographers fishing in the same "client pool". I like to jump out of the box and the Hartblei seems a great tool for that. Why would i want to do other then still live with a technical camera, i never did with my Arca or Cambo ( i did so with my linhof master technika). Some camera's seem to be made by extremely creative camera users for people ( photographers) who see the creative possibilities of a given tool, others are simply made for the bigger mass, to make stock holders and GAS addicts happy :-))).

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    what are the lens options for the Hartblei Cam if your most used focal lengths are 35, 45 and 70 (or 80) mm... with large image circle and sharp to the edges even with large movements (shift)?
    A Canon 17mm and/or 24mm are certainly very decent solutions even with a high res DB but those focal lengths are very special... IMO.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Most Copal shutters go to 1/125? Copal 0 shutters, used in the ALPA Schneider and Rodenstock lenses, go to 1/500: http://www.rtsphoto.com/html/copal2.html

    I guess you could say that most models of Copal shutters go to 1/125, but that's sort of irrelevant. The lenses used on the cameras we're talking about here use shutters that go to 1/500.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Yes you are wright about the Copal, my mistake. I think i am a bit to exited about my new toy. Maybe it is better for me just to play with it and have fun.
    There are several Hartblei lenses that will do a great job, using Zeiss or kiev Glass. A 40/80/120mm from Hartblei in Germany by Stefan Steib and several of Hartblei lenses made in Kiev wich are still on the marked.
    Maybe one can also look at the camera not as a replacement for any given existing camera but just try to explore the enormous potential it has.
    I really like the things i can do with it and hope some others will find out the same thing.
    :sleep006:

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    Most Copal shutters only go to 1/125 sec, 1/400 max. The existing solutions like Schneider (fastest 1/60 sec)
    For the sake of thread posterity lest somebody be confused that what they've read above is fact...

    Copal size 0 shutters, the size most commonly used for LF lenses 150mm and under and most digital specific view lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock, have a top speed of 1/500th. They also synch to flash at this speed.

    Copal size 1 shutters, a medium size common in large format lenses of 180mm and longer, have a top shutter speed of 1/400th.

    Copal size 3 shutters, quite large for the largest LF lenses, have a top speed of 1/125th.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    There are several Hartblei lenses that will do a great job, using Zeiss or kiev Glass. A 40/80/120mm from Hartblei in Germany by Stefan Steib and several of Hartblei lenses made in Kiev wich are still on the marked.
    but I think those lenses do not hold up against their counterparts from Schneider + Rodenstock.
    I'd be certainly extremely interessted in the Hartbleicam if I could mount large format lenses and if the camera would provide movements (on the rear)...
    The way it is designed now (in version 1) makes it IMO more a replacement for a 645 camera if you are only shooting stills ...

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Looks like a very nice technical camera.
    I understand your excitement.

    It's completely irrelevant to the kind of photography I do, but a nicely conceived specialist piece for its specific domain.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    I have checked the site and am not clear about the following:

    1. Can I use any 35mm lens and any MF lens with this camera body?
    2. If so how do I change the respective mounts to allow for this?
    3. Can I use any MF back - and can I change the mount to use any MF back?
    4. If so - how do I change the mount?

    Ability to do above is interesting and @ price point of 5K represents an interesting addition to the tool kit for a photographer - IF the flexibility is there and IF the pricing for flexibility is reasonable. I like the inbuilt shutter speed flexibility.

    However - this camera relies on lens tilt shift ability for technical use - this is its main limitation for technical shooting.

    I am also concerned abotu getting accurate alignment and focus between body and digi back and lens mount - some information about tolerances and proper set-up woudl be interesting.


    btw - I dont/rarely shoot professionally - as there are far better ways to earn ones living - I shoot for the love of photography as a hobby which makes me an enthusiast and a happy amateur- please let me know if this camera is only for professional use - whatever that means -

    if the Hartblei makers can come ot the forum and answer questions above - it woudl be veery good. Thnaks for your enthusiasm.


    Thanks
    Pete

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Hi, I enjoy reading your enthusiasm about the HCAM. I happen to agree with the above response in that the 17mm and 24mm lenses are its main attraction, and that those are indeed very special purpose lenses, often considered too wide for many uses.....but ideal for those who really need it.

    For myself, I would be more interested to see how the Leica S2 lenses would look with something like the P65+ or perhaps a multishot back, assuming the image circle is large enough. That would really be interesting. If Hartblei could make that happen, then I think that would definitely attract more attention for it.

    Having an adapter for Contax 645 lenses does not really introduce anything new for photographers. People with Contax 645 lenses already shoot them with a Contax 645 body. I don't see any benefit to substituting the Contax 645 body with a HCAM in this instance. As most Contax users know, vibration is not really an issue with their body.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    ....
    The Camera is an electronic device using 21st century technolgy offering
    further devellopments for all kind of improvements - it can do about
    anything that a MF DSLR can do, but without the limitations of the Mirror in
    the way. ....
    I do have wonderfull high speed tele lenses for Nikon, but do not have them for Hasselblad( as they simply do not exist) ;-))
    ...
    What limitations do you see with the mirror in the way for tele lenses?
    I understand that 35mm wide angles SLR-lenses are a compromise design because the distance between film/sensor and lens to be relativly long and therefore require retrofocus design.
    But for longer lenses? If you just mean mirror vibration I think I can clap that mirror away much faster than I could slide a back to the side.

    For my taste I dont feel that MF lenses like for example a Hassy 110, or a Mamiya 150mm or aZeis 110/2.0 or Xenotar 80 and 180mm draw anything worse (if not better) than my Nikon 85/1.4 or 100/2.0DC.

    The Hartblei seems to work fine for you, and wihout only looking at limitation I would normally look which benefits I get from new equipment before spending a lot of money. I do find that not all the benefits written on paper by Hartblei would seem to be benefits in real life.
    "Technology of 21th mill." or "higher tolerances than anything else" or "thinking out of the box" are just phrases IMO.

    For me the Hartblei is a well prices (technical) camera without movements with a sliding adapter and some adapter to connect 35mm lenses.
    You could use Nikon 35mm lenses long time ago with a Sinar M camera.

    One thing I am interested in is how precise is a camera where you have an adapter in the front for the lens and an adapter in the back for the digital back? Why would such a camera be more precise than a camera like the Artec which doesnt need any adapters and where each lens would be adjusted exactly fot the Artec system (including infinity)?

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    In front of the lens there is simply a Canon ( or other ) bayonet with electronic contacts. The back simply features a chosen mount, Hasselblad-H in my case. That is fix and cannot be altered by the user. Other lenses fit by using lens adapters, the same way you mount a leica R lens on a canon or nikon etc.
    The more i read here the reactions and replies, the more I get depressed ever having bought that camera. At the moment it feels as a complete waste of money. Oh man, i should never have spent that kind a money on such a worthless camera..... But hey, gues what.... in real life I have already met fellow photographers and after seeing me work with the hartbleicam they were as enthousiast as I am. So maybe a forum is not a good place to express one's enthousiasm. This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people, it is a working tool for those who see the given opportunities and as myself love to experiment, create different styles, do things other than most photographers do. Best is to go to a HCAM dealer and find out what is does for yourself.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    The more i read here the reactions and replies, the more I get depressed ever having bought that camera.
    don't get it wrong. It's certainly a very interessting camera. But it's a special camera in which, naturally, just a few photographers are interessted in. Your enthusiasm is fine but only few will share it.

    This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people
    so you think creativity resp. the expression of creativity depends on the tools you use? I don't think so. Not at all.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Hi Thomas, that is not what is written. It only says that A:This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people. It says not B: you need this camera to be creative.
    That is an enormous difference ;-))
    In other words, I only want to say that it offers, to already creative people, some extra possibilities to use exotic glass. On the other hand, when using a Tilt Adapter that accepts mamiya, hasselblad or Pentax lenses it also becomes a wonderful pack-shot camera. I used a Tilt adapter in combination with a 30mm and also with my 300 and 500mm wich gave rather exotic results. Maybe not that many people love those great ols lenses, special softnesses, dark corners etc but i really do like the use of old fashioned glass. For my normal photography my H3d and Mamiya DF do a great job, with lots of creative posibilities, but i am also very keen on doing things completely different. maybe it is just me and is that wonderfull camera made especially for me. Now i am beginning to feel very special LOL
    Last edited by H3dtogo; 28th June 2010 at 02:44.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    I am sure the Hartblei is an interesting new camera which does some things very well and all that for a good price, but I cant see why it would be the new generation super duper do everything camera.

    However it doesnt matter in the end because we both can decide ourselves which equipment we do like and which we dont.

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    In front of the lens there is simply a Canon ( or other ) bayonet with electronic contacts. The back simply features a chosen mount, Hasselblad-H in my case. That is fix and cannot be altered by the user. Other lenses fit by using lens adapters, the same way you mount a leica R lens on a canon or nikon etc.
    The more i read here the reactions and replies, the more I get depressed ever having bought that camera. At the moment it feels as a complete waste of money. Oh man, i should never have spent that kind a money on such a worthless camera..... But hey, gues what.... in real life I have already met fellow photographers and after seeing me work with the hartbleicam they were as enthousiast as I am. So maybe a forum is not a good place to express one's enthousiasm. This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people, it is a working tool for those who see the given opportunities and as myself love to experiment, create different styles, do things other than most photographers do. Best is to go to a HCAM dealer and find out what is does for yourself.

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    Hi Thomas, that is not what is written. It only says that A:This camera simply is not the standard tool for non creative people. It says not B: you need this camera to be creative.
    okay, I see. Sorry for misquoting!

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Hi Pete

    here we go. Interesting thread.....;-)
    OK-maybe there is something that all the scepticals forget about.
    The Schneider electronic shutter stops at 1/60 of a second.
    the Rollei/Trimble Shutter stops at 1/300 -1/500 sec.
    These are the only ones that you can compare,for full usage of digital photography on MF taking cameras, anything else (Copal mech) is manual, non multishot, prone to defects by temperature if not preserviced, do not generate a wakeup signal (HCam does!), we can run all Digibacks tethered etc.etc.

    See here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters.html

    Nobody knows how long Copal will even make them any longer, the prices have been raised significantly and will further go up.

    Here a little article from Alpa about some irritations coming from mech shutter with hasselblad backs
    http://www.alpa.ch/glossary/photogra...-the-alpa.html

    OK enough of shutters - did I say HCam offers chromafree and nonfringing extreme but also moderate wideangles ? On the opposite let Alpa speak for this- see here:
    http://www.alpa.ch/en/glossary/photo...lens-cast.html
    Superiority of lenses which are unable to deliver undamaged images unusable without electronic corrections ? Who´s kidding here.....;-)))

    Sometimes I am joking about our Cam - try to look at our HCam as a big brother to th Panasonic GF1,The Ricoh module system or the Sony Nex.
    What we do is not Micro Four thirds, this is Makro four thirds for big boys...

    and finally there are more lenses allowing movements on our HCam than any of the existing Schneider and Rodenstock Linos together. Use a Mirex or a Zörk adapter and throw the whole package of existing Zeiss V,Pentax 67,Pentax 645 ,Mamiya645 and.....plenty more at it.

    and finally it´s really amazing that people who discuss literally years about future "maybe to come " Schneider or Rodenstock lenses which may offer some more mm of movements suddenly ignore if there are full format P65+s delivering 135 degr,of image angle with movements.

    as Spock would say : fascinating - or as Orwell called it "Zwiedenk"....

    Greetings from right now Venice on the way to the Shanghai Interphoto where the new technology for the west is made.

    Stefan Steib- Hartblei

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    if the Hartblei makers can come ot the forum and answer questions above - it woudl be veery good. Thnaks for your enthusiasm.


    Thanks
    Pete[/QUOTE]

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    Re: The HCAM B1, the worktool for the future!

    Yes Stefan,
    as mentioned before that it is very interesting for anybody who wants to go really wide to use a 17mm lens on MF.

    Is the Nikon 14-24 fully usable on a MF sensor?

    I bet you guys have tested many lenses - do you have maybe a liste of recommended lenses which shows the image circle?

    I know that it is not hard to get dark corners when I use my Nikon 24mm PCE on my 35mm sensor - so I wonder how much T/S capability would be left on a MF sensor.

    If one is more interested in the 35/40mm range (like me) - which would be the recommended shift lens for your new cam and how much T/S would it allow?
    I read that you get 10mm on a 35mm sensor with the Hartblei 40mm IF lens which seems to be a MF lens-but that would barely allow any shift on a MF sensor?

    I do own a tech camera right now but if your Hartblei can do the same like my Artec with 40mm Rodenstock than it could be worth the switch and save me some money.

    Thanks for some answers - I asked critical questions before in this thread (not because I would see the Hartblei cam as an interesting thing but more because I felt the description has been very much in one direction. A balanced description mentioning the capabilities but also the limits would be very helpful) - but I am still interested in this new product.

    If you talk about using all kind of MF lenses with a Zörk Adapter- how much T/S do you really get? How usable are the corners?

    Regards, Thomas

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