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Thread: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

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    Member VICTOR BT's Avatar
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    Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    following my questions on the forum about MFD system, and my first impression from hasselblad h4d-40... heres my first impression about HY6/Afi.

    from the first few minutes, it was obvious, this is the best camera ever made. yes, i know, not the best for everyone/everything. lets put it this way, whether this camera answer ones needs and taste, it is simply the most amazing.

    the real man's machine, a frontier in design and engineering, a modern industrial jewel in the hand.
    what a poetic unjustness that only short after its development, its production stops because of business mess etc. poetic - because it is obvious that some one was sitting there (in germany and in a way in israel too) with one clear thing in their mind - to do what they know best and to refine it further, without much compromises and full of vision. u just feel how it was made when u have it in the hand.

    some little stuff after this poetry...
    - built like no other camera, quality that is especially out of scale considering that this is a modern digital machine (things like alpa/linhof are always super built but they are purely mechanical instruments).
    indeed, in spectacular way, it is the refined version of rollei 6008.
    - auto-focusing is fast (afd lenses, 50 and 80), but based on first impression, i think hasselblad gives more confidence, both in general and for "true-focus" function of course. from the other hand, unlike hasselblad, the hy6 is a amazing (best!) for manual focusing, surely with weist level finder (for which my eye-correction was exchanged) and equally good should have been the 45-finder, but there was no eye-correction for me, but from a few snap looks with glasses on, it seems that no issues at all.
    - the new lenses (afd) are slightly different than the original 6008, but it takes a short to get used to the feel it gives while focusing manually. no issues at all, actually sometimes even nicer as they feel a bit lighter and more responsive, compared to smoother but more solid classic ones.
    - the rotating sensor is so cool. better than anything for camera orientation. also, if one decides to use it with monopod, the camera will probably be even less bulky than mamiya/hasselbald with rotating devices. moving sensor seems so positive and smooth (mechanically, just like the whole camera). the way the lines on the screen were drawn/painted for horizonatal/vertical crop of the sensor are very good, but i think simple and well visible lines would be even better, especially if a 6x6 film back is also in the game.
    - the grip and its little monitor is amazing, it shows all the information in any condition, includes histogram (small one, but well informative). everything is easily viewable in any case. the camera, while heavier than others feels super balanced in the hand with this grip. i think a day or two with it and the camera will be more balanced for handheld photography than any other camera. also, it is amazing how a 6x6 has no vibration. of course there is a mirror-lock conveniently placed for the thumb on the grip, but i think for practical use, mirror is no issue even at 1/60 even 1/30 when needed.

    in my perspective, hy6 and h4d are very close, both are amazing, their image quality is in the same league too.
    of course there is an issue of hasslebald with its consensus in mark-place, and hy6 with its production stopped, but i ignore those issues at the moment, cause i dont really care about marketing position (even if the camera is great anyway), and for hy6 there is a plausible solution basically (at least for those who really want it).

    hasselblad is probably the peak of hi-end digital system (integration etc). rollei hy6 / leaf afi is the frontier in design and engineering - a contemporary industrial JEWEL of photographic instruments. and with leaf and supreme lenses it is equally top in IQ too of course.
    hasselbald gives additional flexibility by giving a a little bit of handeling (and iso) similar to 35mm format too. but hy6 is surely superior in controlled situation, and it is great for relaxed spontaneous work too.

    actually, it is not about choosing between equally great cameras. more likely, it is about revealing the true character - a conformist making wise choices or an eccentric lad following passion :-)
    Last edited by VICTOR BT; 11th July 2010 at 05:27. Reason: typos

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    The three areas where Hy6 beats H series blad bodies are: WLF finder, rotating back and mirror dampening. Later this year - the fourth area will be the provision of a full frame film back - making full use of the image circle of both Schneider and Zeiss Rollie mount lenses - I wont say that they are better than HC and HCD blad lenses - just different drawing..so for me 4 good reasons to keep the Hy6/Sinar75LV system (nothing wrong with Leaf backs btw)

    Hasselblad of course has their own competitive advantages - a great viewfinder, fantastic software corrections for lenses and a full range of focal lengths - with great auto focus - and that is before the advantages of the latest H4D true focus.

    So hard to choose between the two - I kept both - trade in value for H3D11-39 with body and 80mm is now between 10-12K - too low to sell.

    A great pity PhaseOne was shut out of Hy6/Afi bodies originally as good as the PhaMiya body is - I think the other two are better cameras. Mamiya is fortunate to have Phase One as their digi back...Phase backs with their software ( which I think has the edge on Hasselblad for everything except lens crrections) are excellent value propositions.

    Good Luck with choosing between two.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The three areas where Hy6 beats H series blad bodies are: WLF finder, rotating back and mirror dampening. Later this year - the fourth area will be the provision of a full frame film back - making full use of the image circle of both Schneider and Zeiss Rollie mount lenses - I wont say that they are better than HC and HCD blad lenses - just different drawing..so for me 4 good reasons to keep the Hy6/Sinar75LV system (nothing wrong with Leaf backs btw)

    Hasselblad of course has their own competitive advantages - a great viewfinder, fantastic software corrections for lenses and a full range of focal lengths - with great auto focus - and that is before the advantages of the latest H4D true focus.

    So hard to choose between the two - I kept both - trade in value for H3D11-39 with body and 80mm is now between 10-12K - too low to sell.

    A great pity PhaseOne was shut out of Hy6/Afi bodies originally as good as the PhaMiya body is - I think the other two are better cameras. Mamiya is fortunate to have Phase One as their digi back...Phase backs with their software ( which I think has the edge on Hasselblad for everything except lens crrections) are excellent value propositions.

    Good Luck with choosing between two.

    I don't know that I feel Phase One's lens corrections take a back seat to Hasselblad's lens corrections. The lens corrections in Phocus work. Period. But they have a limited tool set and are either on or off.

    The lens corrections in Capture One cover many more lenses, offer manual control of the correction, are savable to be applied later, offer more options, for instance, negative vignetting, vignetting on crops, edge sharpening masks, and purple fringing correction, and are very effective (see example).

    I suppose this could be a plus for the Leaf, although AFi lenses are not (currently) represented in the Capture One Lens Correction Tool Tab. This doesn't mean that you could not still use the tools manually.

    While the Phase One camera has occupied a backseat to the Hasselblad H camera system, I wonder if a year or two from now that will still be the assessment. Phase One has made great strides in the past 2 years, releasing an updated body and some 5 or 6 lenses, including 3 Leaf Shutter lenses. Their pace indicates more advancement.

    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Victor, thanks for posting your impressions of the Hy6. Like Peter I've been using this system since it was introduced and am still quite happy with it. It's got it's quirks as well as it's strengths but I suspect other systems do too. On occasion I like to shoot with different camera platforms (Hassy and Contax) and the readily changeable adapter plates allow this to be done easily and quickly. How unfortunate that this system was virtually stillborn due to the timing of it's introduction.

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Steve good to hear that the Mamiya body is going to be improved over time so that it can match the quality of the backs, software and lenses - that would be great news for Mamiya / Phase users.

    For me the switching cost between Hasselblad 645 and Mamiya never added up primarily because of sunk costs in lenses - I actually dont see much difference between the systems - I am more familiar with Phocus in MF use than C1 because Phocus works as much as I want any raw processor to work - none of these MF processors can replace Photoshop and a bunch of plugins for finished work - as you would well understand or imageprint for printing.

    As for Hy6 - those of use 'stuck' with dead systems - take some consolation fom the fact that they are supported by Sinar - which was apparently dead - but as you probaly know by now - isnt quite dead and is releasing new stuff all the time - who knows whats coming next hmm? -

    Some of us still like shooting film and when you have a collection of dead lenses like Zeiss and Schneiders in 6x6 it is nice to be able to shoot them in full frame film or transparency- just for the fun of it especially B&W when you can soup it up yourself and still get a look that digi still quite can't deliver.

    anyway - I ddint mean to cause you or anyone else any angst regardign Phase One anything - a careful read of what i wrote made no mention of any deficiencies for Phase One in any area did it- I mean you were the one that put words in my mouth yes?

    but since you brought it up - I am glad you have informed everyoen who reads - that capture one's software is a better option than Phocus etc etc etc..

    Kind regards
    Pete

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Actually Peter I rarely use Photoshop. I do almost everything in C1. It's more powerful than many give it credit for but also you need to know the program very well which obviously I do but the color editor alone is worth it's weight in gold. But lets' be real honest working with any raw converter takes a lot of time put into it to draw the best from it. Any of the good programs just simply take time invested in it. Just like PS it could take years to actually master that program.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    I am glad you get all you need from C1 Guy - I dont have the same feeling towards Phocus or Expose - then again - i dont expect to see one prgramme do everything I need either. Fortunately I have spent a few years climbing teh PS lerning curve.!

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Error - Double Post
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Steve good to hear that the Mamiya body is going to be improved over time so that it can match the quality of the backs, software and lenses - that would be great news for Mamiya / Phase users.

    For me the switching cost between Hasselblad 645 and Mamiya never added up primarily because of sunk costs in lenses - I actually dont see much difference between the systems - I am more familiar with Phocus in MF use than C1 because Phocus works as much as I want any raw processor to work - none of these MF processors can replace Photoshop and a bunch of plugins for finished work - as you would well understand or imageprint for printing.

    As for Hy6 - those of use 'stuck' with dead systems - take some consolation fom the fact that they are supported by Sinar - which was apparently dead - but as you probaly know by now - isnt quite dead and is releasing new stuff all the time - who knows whats coming next hmm? -

    Some of us still like shooting film and when you have a collection of dead lenses like Zeiss and Schneiders in 6x6 it is nice to be able to shoot them in full frame film or transparency- just for the fun of it especially B&W when you can soup it up yourself and still get a look that digi still quite can't deliver.

    anyway - I ddint mean to cause you or anyone else any angst regardign Phase One anything - a careful read of what i wrote made no mention of any deficiencies for Phase One in any area did it- I mean you were the one that put words in my mouth yes?

    but since you brought it up - I am glad you have informed everyoen who reads - that capture one's software is a better option than Phocus etc etc etc..

    Kind regards
    Pete

    Hi Pete:

    Not sure if you're referring to me, but I've never, ever said anything negative about "dead" systems. I consider the camera that someone chooses to be a very subjective choice in all situations, regardless of whether the camera is dead or alive. What matters is whether the camera makes you come alive. I have many Contax customers, and a number of AFi and Hy6 customers who I still look after. No "stuck with dead camera" stigma here.

    No angst felt over your post and I did not put words into your mouth. I'm not trying to prove C1 is a better option than Phocus - most users already have their mind made up there, and you did state that you felt Capture One was a better option than Phocus other than the Lens Corrections. I agree, but I was only offering a different perspective on the Lens Corrections topic. I feel that Capture One (particularly in comparison to Phocus) is not known for it's strength with Lens Corrections, but it is actually quite impressive and I would prefer the Lens Correction tools in Capture One to Phocus. And to bring it all back - though the AFi lenses are not represented in the C1 Lens Correction profiles, you can manually adjust those lenses and so the Leaf Afi would provide that option with Capture One.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    No worries on my part Steve. As I said Capture One is a great piece of software - and a compelling reason to use Phase One backs and anyone who owns and uses C1 as well as Phocus and expose - will now that C1 is feature for feature a superior piece of software.

    The 'dead' issue is a tongue in cheek reference to past statements made by various people on this forum regardign Sinar/Hy6 etc.disappointing to Sinar owners and users and misleading sicne teh camera system is still being sold and serviced - new.

    For me photography is about fun - and sometimes - type on a page - can be misinterpreted so please accept my apologies if I hgave caused you any angst.

    I will have to check out the len correction capabilities of C1 - maybe of some use with regards to a Sinar file once processed into DNG via expose ?

    Cheers
    Pete

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I will have to check out the len correction capabilities of C1 - maybe of some use with regards to a Sinar file once processed into DNG via expose ?
    Cheers
    Pete
    No such thing as distortion in the Sinar files Peter... you should know that

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    No worries on my part Steve. As I said Capture One is a great piece of software - and a compelling reason to use Phase One backs and anyone who owns and uses C1 as well as Phocus and expose - will now that C1 is feature for feature a superior piece of software.

    The 'dead' issue is a tongue in cheek reference to past statements made by various people on this forum regardign Sinar/Hy6 etc.disappointing to Sinar owners and users and misleading sicne teh camera system is still being sold and serviced - new.

    For me photography is about fun - and sometimes - type on a page - can be misinterpreted so please accept my apologies if I hgave caused you any angst.

    I will have to check out the len correction capabilities of C1 - maybe of some use with regards to a Sinar file once processed into DNG via expose ?

    Cheers
    Pete

    Ummm....possibly. Gosh, the benefits of an open system.

    Yes, rumors of demise spread quickly and often inaccurately as you'll see if you scroll down a bit through this thread:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=44661

    As a former Sinar employee, I certainly value the notion of a world in which Sinar exists and thrives and wish them the best.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    has anyone ever used the leaf version with one of the newer backs on it?
    the afi II 10, or whatever the latest one is/was caled looked very promising.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    has anyone ever used the leaf version with one of the newer backs on it?
    the afi II 10, or whatever the latest one is/was caled looked very promising.
    Naturally I did...anything in particular that you'd like to know about the AFi-II 10?
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    My feeling is that the most powerful image software on the planet is Photoshop ... with Lightroom beginning to nip at its heels for second position. This opinion is based on a more over-all production POV. A truly great designer/Art Director once told me that "PS is such a deep program that I will get good at it in a couple of years, but it will take a lifetime to master it." After all the years I've been using it, I now agree with him completely.

    The proprietary RAW processors will continue to have a significant edge over both PS and LR in color rendering and specific system corrections for obvious reasons.

    The day that major proprietary software includes direct access to PS while maintaining its library or catalog integrity (Like LR now does) will be a milestone of integrated photographic production IMHO.

    The day that Adobe unleashes its considerable assets toward color and system refinements, is the day I will delete all other programs from my computer.

    As it stands, I could live without C1 or Phocus, but would be dead in the water without PS ... and LR is fast getting to the same "must have" status.

    -Marc

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I will have to check out the len correction capabilities of C1 - maybe of some use with regards to a Sinar file once processed into DNG via expose ?
    no... C1 lens corrections won't work with generic DNG files. Only with supported RAW files.

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    well thanks Thomas
    I guess C1 is a great program for 'supported' raw formats then...

    Marc - I have been getting up to speed with Aperture 3 because it supports Hasselblad files and M9 files ...

    does Lightroom handle these ? have you compared LR to Aperture 3? ( I have no view)

    and yes I agree with what you say about PS ..totally - and then you add integration with the other Adobe software - in Design/Ilustrator etc ..

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    Member VICTOR BT's Avatar
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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    yes, i would also like some kind of overall software solution:
    super raw converter like phocus/capture1 + library management like lightroom + photoshop finishing.
    i agree, lightroom gets close, but even from the initial impression from phocus+h4d, it was clear that lightroom has long way both from the side of phocus and from the side of photoshop (and im not basing my photography on photoshop manipulation, just some basic "finishing" stuff).

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    david and peter, thanks...
    what are the quircks of the camera/system in your experience ?

    steve,
    i will be looking into the capture-one software, as this is considered one of the bests, if not the best.
    with all my emotional attitude to hy6/afi + amazing lenses on it etc, it is still digital leaf back that creates the photograph (unless i use it as 6x6 which i would be glad to do as well). this means, in order to give a real match to hasselablad impressive performance, it will need an equally good software to take care on DIGITAL issues.

    just to mention it here... the great thing about hasselbad testing was that it was the first time that i felt good about digital issues (like all those digital problems - color+moirse etc).. i never liked digital, not only it does not have the depth of film, but in addition it always exhibited those typical annoying digital-chip problems. in short, whether it is hasslblad or leaf, i dont want to be bothered with those digital-chip issues. i dont need anutomation, but software that overcomes the technological limitations and brings to me an image without issues is a serious advantage. so i hope capture-one manages it with great results and ease of use.
    Last edited by VICTOR BT; 14th July 2010 at 13:29.

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by VICTOR BT View Post
    david and peter, thanks...
    what are the quircks of the camera/system in your experience ?
    A few that come to mind are:

    It is much to easy to inadvertently move the switches on the left side of the camera, e.g. exposure mode. These should have required the pressing of a button to release them.

    The messages that pop up on the rear LCD are colored yellow (or green) and impossible to read.

    The alternate AF button is in an awkward position on the bottom left side of the camera... especially if you have a pocket wizard or other transmitter plugged into the hot shoe. IMO, an alternate AF button should be activated with the thumb of the right hand. Requiring the use of the left hand which is holding the camera is not a good solution.

    Not sure if this next one has been addressed in firmware but the last time I upgraded my firmware the hot shoe became non-functional. I tried this on two different bodies so it wasn't a camera issue. Reinstallation of the older firmware did not resolve this. I haven't upgraded the firmware since having that problem so maybe some of the above issues have been addressed. I need my hot shoe

    With the e75LV back images are written to internal storage first then over to the CF card (if that's the method of storage selected). This allows for better buffer response but the writing of the images takes a long time even with fast CF cards.

    The menu system is a bit awkward as there are two menu systems. Not a big deal if you use the camera every day but I sometimes forget which settings are where when I haven't used it in a bit.

    There's probably a few others I missed and none of these is a deal killer. I've learned to work around them but many seem to me to be easy fixes that just never got implemented.

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Naturally I did...anything in particular that you'd like to know about the AFi-II 10?
    yes yair,
    i wanted to hear some comments on how the camera body handles, how good the autofocus is, if there are any known issues with the camera (the same as the sinar hy6 issues below?), if the camera is still being sold (the body and back, not just the back), which af lenses are available, which prisms are available for the body, what the components cost, and who would i contact if something was to go wrong with the body (phaseone?) and if there are trade in options.

    thanks, kipling
    Last edited by kipling; 15th July 2010 at 07:57.

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    Re: Rolleiflex HY6 / Lead Afi - first impression

    There are a couple of ways to get into the Hy6 camera system:

    1) through Sinar, which I believe is still actively marketing their camera, mostly from stock.

    2) get the body from DHW (from their stock) and find a Leaf or Sinar back on your own.

    Having done the latter, I can tell you that the camera was sent with current firmware upgrades. It also matched up to a Leaf AFI 7 II back without any issues whatsoever.

    I don't use AF, but focus confirmation with older manual lenses is just lovely. Right on.
    Last edited by Geoff; 15th July 2010 at 08:54. Reason: grammar

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