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Lloyd Chambers S2 Review

robmac

Well-known member
In a very small nutshell:

1. Interface & control-centric design choices by Solms
2. CA and other aspects of lens performance vs. claims of lens perfection by Solms
3. AF performance (in terms of ability to lock on objects, indicated focus point vs reality, back focusing)

I won't go any further as I don't want to replicate his work here. He is a Leica user with an M9 and R glass on Nikon & Canon (actually helped hook him up with his 90AAR) and while I don't always agree with his conclusions, is one of the most objective 'call it like it is' (from his perspective), thorough and 'real life use' (vs brickwalls and test charts) reviewers out there. He also does comparos of the S2 vs the D3X in terms of perceived IQ.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Lloyd is a good friend of the forum and Jack and me. I have not read the review yet but from Robs update seems like he is catching most of the issues. Not surprised
 

NotXorc

New member
Has anyone noticed that an S2 system is the grand prize in the Red Bull Illume (http://www.redbullillume.com/) photo competition?

This is a contest to, "showcase the globe’s very best action and adventure sports images" (italics mine). What were they thinking? Although you can argue the S2 would be better than other MF/LF systems, it hardly seems like the tool of choice for sports photography.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Yeah, some of the more 'blinders-on-full Captain' type faithful are going risk some heads exploding reading the review.

The choice of Red Bull price is, well, interesting. Valuable in terms of $$ but not exactly appropriate given the style of photography in question.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Has anyone noticed that an S2 system is the grand prize in the Red Bull Illume (http://www.redbullillume.com/) photo competition?

This is a contest to, "showcase the globe’s very best action and adventure sports images" (italics mine). What were they thinking? Although you can argue the S2 would be better than other MF/LF systems, it hardly seems like the tool of choice for sports photography.
Note the following graphics on that website:


Just saying.

Sports encompasses a LOT of styles of shooting. Some requires incredible AF and high speed motor drives with long buffers. Some require MF (locking on a known point and waiting for one shot. In the later case the higher resolution, incredible sharpness/detail, color, and dynamic range of the S2 or any other medium format system would be a welcome improvement to the final captured image. In the former it would plainly be the wrong (or "not best") choice.

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stephengilbert

Active member
I don't know whether Lloyd's idea of a readers' comments page is a good one. Perhaps his readers are less crazed than the average, but still, it is a Leica.
 

ddanois

Member
Thank God this came out today! I was about to send mine off for yet another service check. Glad to see that it's not just me.

I've been having the same experience with my S2 and couldn't get past the point of blaming the bad shots on user error. I've sent my kit back to Leica in Germany for evaluation and it came back as having been fully tested, calibrated and cleaned. Same results!

I did notice that the service sheet indicated that the electronics had been replaced in my body but there hasn't been any improvement.

I agree with the review...when you get the shot in focus, what you get is beautiful and razor sharp. However, 8 to 9 shots out of 10 are slightly to significantly out of focus when using AF.

Giving serious thought to selling the system to someone with lower expectations.
 

Mike M

New member
Thank God this came out today! I was about to send mine off for yet another service check. Glad to see that it's not just me.

I've been having the same experience with my S2 and couldn't get past the point of blaming the bad shots on user error. I've sent my kit back to Leica in Germany for evaluation and it came back as having been fully tested, calibrated and cleaned. Same results!

I did notice that the service sheet indicated that the electronics had been replaced in my body but there hasn't been any improvement.

I agree with the review...when you get the shot in focus, what you get is beautiful and razor sharp. However, 8 to 9 shots out of 10 are slightly to significantly out of focus when using AF.

Giving serious thought to selling the system to someone with lower expectations.
OK, what I'm about to say doesn't go over well in forums. But it's perfectly acceptable within the studios and photographers that I've known to say this

AF is a guide and it should never be relied upon no matter what system a person is using. Photographers that are really in control of focal planes mostly rely on MF.

Yes, sports photographers and photojournalists may rely on AF. But, they're not exactly known for expert craftsmanship either. AF is becoming a crutch. I've never seen worse focus than since the invention of AF. For example, I just cruised through a book of sports illustrated swimsuit pictures from the library and almost every shot was tech;nically misplaced in terms of focus. No doubt the photographers were relying on nikon or canon to make their decisions for them. Hey, But the girls still looked great :thumbup:

The S2 only has one focus point probably because that's all many serious professionals really care about. They mostly just use AF as a guide, and then will probably override the AF and dial in exact focus of focal planes with MF

The S2 has one of the best viewfinders in the industry and the lenses were designed for smooth MF. So there really are no excuses to solely rely on AF except incompetence or laziness on the part of the photographer. If it's really a big deal to a person then he's probably in the wrong system. The camera is fine.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
OK, what I'm about to say doesn't go over well in forums. But it's perfectly acceptable within the studios and photographers that I've known to say this

AF is a guide and it should never be relied upon no matter what system a person is using. Photographers that are really in control of focal planes mostly rely on MF.

Yes, sports photographers and photojournalists may rely on AF. But, they're not exactly known for expert craftsmanship either. AF is becoming a crutch. I've never seen worse focus than since the invention of AF. For example, I just cruised through a book of sports illustrated swimsuit pictures from the library and almost every shot was tech;nically misplaced in terms of focus. No doubt the photographers were relying on nikon or canon to make their decisions for them. Hey, But the girls still looked great :thumbup:

The S2 only has one focus point probably because that's all many serious professionals really care about. They mostly just use AF as a guide, and then will probably override the AF and dial in exact focus of focal planes with MF

The S2 has one of the best viewfinders in the industry and the lenses were designed for smooth MF. So there really are no excuses to solely rely on AF except incompetence or laziness on the part of the photographer. If it's really a big deal to a person then he's probably in the wrong system. The camera is fine.
I sold a Canon 7d because focus wasnt reliable, and my Hy6 focus is also not reliable but the AF of my d700 and also of the D3 and d3x I had before is more precise than I would achieve with manual focus.

So IMO there are AF systems which work very precise.
 

VICTOR BT

Member
i have not had an opportunity to play with S2 yet, so cannot comment about the camera handling.
but since im testing MFD currently, one thing i can say in general:
i do not use auto focus at all, but somehow i paid concidirable attention while testing the new cameras (hy6/afi and h4d). interestingly, i dont care too much about AF on hy6/afi, since the manual focus is so natural there. from the other hand, manual focus on h4d is not as natural, but the AF was surprisingly good and from the first impression - a trustable one.
if the manual focus on S2 is great (why not if lenses and viewfinder are like leica should be) then great, but still, i would expect that on camera like S2, the AF should work very well too. but then i think, that in practice, if there is not some kind of solution, like the amazing h4d with true-focus to match AF with composition, then, in most cases the photographer should fine-tune with manual focus anyway. so, even if the S2 AF was super good, it is still less practical because of one point limitation.
i think hasselblad really hit the point here with true focus and good af performance - i mean in real handling.
 

tjv

Active member
One person praises the menu system and interface, another thinks it's a deal breaker. One person think AF is significantly more accurate than system X or Y, another finds it horrible. Most people agree of CA, however.

To be honest, at this price and pixel level detail, I'd be shocked if the reviews weren't polarized. One should really just go out and test the system, any system, himself if he wants to form an opinion based on his own requirements. I'm hoping to try the S2 soon and I'm sure my technique will end up being tested just as much as the camera.
 
Thank God this came out today! I was about to send mine off for yet another service check. Glad to see that it's not just me.

I've been having the same experience with my S2 and couldn't get past the point of blaming the bad shots on user error. I've sent my kit back to Leica in Germany for evaluation and it came back as having been fully tested, calibrated and cleaned. Same results!

I did notice that the service sheet indicated that the electronics had been replaced in my body but there hasn't been any improvement.

I agree with the review...when you get the shot in focus, what you get is beautiful and razor sharp. However, 8 to 9 shots out of 10 are slightly to significantly out of focus when using AF.

Giving serious thought to selling the system to someone with lower expectations.
I would be very frustrated if 8 to 9 shots out of 10 are out of focus - and that is being polite. I have much better success with my S2. In fact, the few out of focus shots (point of best focus not where intended) can usually be attributed to body sway. I find the autofocus of my S2 to be very accurate. I found that I much prefer to have the autofocus triggered from the rear button rather than the shutter button.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I'm beginning to think this camera is taking a beating that it doesn't quite deserve.

I didn't have an issue with the AF other than it was slow when using the shutter button ... it seemed fine once we switched it to the rear thumb button ... which I prefer anyway. Perhaps there is some criteria of measure that I'm missing? No matter what camera, using center focus while recomposing is always a problem with fast apertures.

The idea that true professionals only use manual focus is odd to say the least. If you're shooting a moving target, wide open, manual focus is a nightmare. Not all "professional" subjects are laying on a shooting table being shot at f/8 or 11, using strobes.

I have two H cameras ... one in the studio locked down on a giant tripod that has a split diagonal micro-prism screen ... I've never once used AF on that camera. The other is a H4D/40 which I've never manually focused ... the True-Focus/Focus-Recompose AF is a God sent that should be in every camera made IMO.

I didn't have the S2 camera in hand long enough to truly evaluate the interface. I've used a herd of different cameras and no two interface were the same ...you learn it and get as fast at it as possible. Maybe the layout would get frustrating, I can't say since I did use it long enough, nor use under the gun while shooting for money.

The S2 is a beautiful camera, in hand and at the eye. Build quality looks and feels like a Leica. It lacks the software solutions of other systems, but I think people will work through those issues eventually ... it isn't that far off the mark as it is.

Wish I had one ... not as a replacement for my existing H kit, but for what it is on its own. Unfortunately, at those prices it just isn't going to happen.

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
I'm beginning to think this camera is taking a beating that it doesn't quite deserve.
-Marc
I'm inclined to agree. Spent the day down at Dale labs with David playing around with the S2 and a couple of lenses and comparing it to one of the new Leaf backs that a friend brought down. The LCD is so much better than my Sinar (or the one on the Leaf back) that they're not even in the same ballpark. Viewfinder is extremely bright with those fast lenses and manual focusing with the Leica lenses is a dream. As good as with my best Rollei glass. It's got it's shortcomings for sure (no WLF or right angle finder is a big one for me) but it's also got a lot of really nice features.
 
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