MF digital newbies, so what have you learned

[malmac]

Hi

I am not yet a MFD owner but that is likely to change fairly soon. Have been looking at MFD for about 18 months and this forum, Hasselblad forum and Luminous Landscapes have all been useful sources of information.

However it was not until this week that I had a serious opportunity to take some images with both the H4D 40 and 50 and with a P45+.

First impressions for those of you who have not as yet had this opportunity.

The H4D camera is a joy to hold in the hand. The view through the viewfinder was splendid and the controls with maybe the exception of the mirror up button readily accessible. I must addmit that I ruined most of my shots by holding onto the tripod, for fear of the camera coming to grief. The end result was a degree of transferred camera shake - not visibible on the review screen but visible on the computer monitor. I found the 1/800 shutter speed limiting in the bright Australian sunshine without using a ND filter.

The Phase One camera did hark back to my Canon 50D on steroids, but it worked well and I had learned my lesson re the tripod, so the images aew really good. One lesson was the size of the central focus - so when photographing a large flowering plant, the focus just ducked around the flowers to the wall behind and the bricks were in perfect focus - should have slipped the lens into manual focus mode.

This coming week we will make a decision -

Thank you to everyone on the forum who have generously shared their experience.


mal

 

[dick]

Hi

I found the 1/800 shutter speed limiting in the bright Australian sunshine without using a ND filter.


mal

What are you doing that needs 1/800th?

Australia was not that bright when I was there in the 1970s!

I am thinking of getting Sinar eShutters, which have a top speed of 1/250th, which is a vast improvement on the ¿1/60th? of the Schneider electronic shutter, but I thought that 1/250th would be adequate for taming Euro sun when using a 50 ISO back.

 

[David Schneider]

Bob,

A small advantage of mf in studio is I can go to higher shutter speed and stop action or slow it down to get a little blur on hands and feet, depending on jump or movement. With dlsr, limited to high end of about 1/160th. Here I went to 1/500th and everything is stopped.

Too much dof and I'll have more background wrinkles, especially since there's more dof in back of subject than in front of them.

Of course, in full res image you can easily read Fruit of the Loom on his shorts. That's not happening with my Canon.
View attachment 41925

 

[fotografz]

This is the David Schneider with a Hasselblad H3D-II/39 ... right? I'll assume it is, if not ignore this post:

RE: shutter delay ... What focus mode are you using and are you using the shutter button to focus/shoot or the rear thumb button? (I assume manual exposure is being used). What drive mode was used?

Also, What amount of mirror delay is set on that camera? If it is still my previous H3D-II/39 it was set for hand-held work in low light, so the mirror delay would make it seem like shutter lag when shooting critically timed action shots.

I agree on the use of strobes as the key light source to gain a bit of DOF and further freeze the action using flash duration rather than shutter speeds. Slightly reduced power from a strobe will further decrease the flash duration to increase the "freeze effect." Check the spec's of your strobes to see what flash duration is possible at what settings. For example, a Profoto D1 500w/s monolight duration ranges from 1/1,000 at full power to 1/2,600 at minimum settings ... any of which is faster than the top shutter-speed of the camera.

If you do try strobes and want to eliminate all ambient, hard-wire the lights to the camera sync port so you can go to a full 1/800th sync. Radio systems tend to have shutter speed limitations depending on which ones are being used. Common PWs top out at 1/500th with leaf-shutters (which I question, feeling it is more like 1/400th or so), and some radios like Micro-Sync are even less.

-Marc

 

[dick]

RE: shutter delay ... What focus mode are you using and are you using the shutter button to focus/shoot or the rear thumb button? (I assume manual exposure is being used). What drive mode was used?

When you ave paid mega-bucks for a high-end MFDSLR, you like to use auto-focus, but it probably would not work here.

Manual pre-focus can make focus hit-and-miss ...or using a small aperture gives you diffraction. Put a mark on the floor and tell the subject that that is where they need to be.

Also, What amount of mirror delay is set on that camera? If it is still my previous H3D-II/39 it was set for hand-held work in low light, so the mirror delay would make it seem like shutter lag when shooting critically timed action shots.

I would use MLU (or a tech camera with electronic shutters) to eliminate mirror-delay, probably with a shutter-beam... and decide what focal length and viewing distance you need before you start... a shutter-beam would help you catch the pose right and get the subject in the frame.

I agree on the use of strobes as the key light source to gain a bit of DOF and further freeze the action using flash duration rather than shutter speeds. Slightly reduced power from a strobe will further decrease the flash duration to increase the "freeze effect." Check the spec's of your strobes to see what flash duration is possible at what settings. For example, a Profoto D1 500w/s monolight duration ranges from 1/1,000 at full power to 1/2,600 at minimum settings ... any of which is faster than the top shutter-speed of the camera.

If you do try strobes and want to eliminate all ambient, hard-wire the lights to the camera sync port so you can go to a full 1/800th sync. Radio systems tend to have shutter speed limitations depending on which ones are being used. Common PWs top out at 1/500th with leaf-shutters (which I question, feeling it is more like 1/400th or so), and some radios like Micro-Sync are even less.

-Marc

This pose should be balanced, without much movement... but for many dance or gymnastic shots a little blur to indicate movement is desirable - I am thinking of using the strobe option (many small flashes in a fraction of a second) on my Metzs for this.

When photographing a ballerina in a classic "T" balance (with one leg horizontal), if the subject is a child who cannot hold the pose, a shutter-beam would be ideal, as you can easily set it to fire when the leg is horizontal... I have shutter-beams, but last time I had to do this I did not have a remotely-trigger-able digital camera.

(My wife has a ballet school, and I do occasionally have to produce photographs of ballerinas in standard poses to accompany applications for admission to ballet school... she also teaches gymnastics.)

 

[Vincent Goetz]

Interesting thread. I have had my P40+ for less than a week and find myself learning so much every day...coming from Nikon D200 and D300, and LR3 and CS5 to C1 is a bigger leap than I anticipated. That and having old eyes so I need the autofocus as much as possible. DOF was a surprise to me, but just means that these cameras eat light all day long. So I will be buying lights for what I do, and that will be another learning curve. That said, the learning curve of digital and printing was a tad awesome in the beginning, and I know the quality of my work is improving and I am convinced that MF will take it to another level. Headed to Death Valley (an annual pilgrimage) to shoot things I have shot over the past years and then to Yosemite where I actually lived for five years (shooting for the NPS). I am aiming to try to replicate some of my favorite images in MF, and assume that I will learn a lot trying to do so.

One thing that needs to be said. Finding this site came after I made the commitment to go to MF. It is a pleasure to come visit and learn from what is posted here. And very much appreciated....

 

[GrahamWelland]

May update:

What have I learned? Do not read or listen to the Phase One IQ experiences and reviews from Jack or Guy ... at least unless you're already independently wealthy or in receipt of a trust fund :ROTFL:

 

[akk2]

Most medium format cameras are not for people with small hands.

 

[Vincent Goetz]

Graham, you nailed it!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

May update:

What have I learned? Do not read or listen to the Phase One IQ experiences and reviews from Jack or Guy ... at least unless you're already independently wealthy or in receipt of a trust fund :ROTFL:

What I learned don't take my own advice without proper ski mask attire. LOL

 

[wentbackward]

Hi Everyone! My first post here. I thought I may have something useful to share. I have shot film in LF/MF for over 20 years (35mm for 30 odd years). In my pocket/bag everyday is an M9. I use Nikon gear too. I only own one zoom lens. I've been up to my neck in the sea with a D700. These systems are tough, fast, value for money and versatile, huge choice of focal length, high ISO etc. My 3 year old can take lovely pictures with a D700!! Small format is brilliant at what it does. But to get excellent to best quality out of any setup, the amount of effort is practically identical in S or M format. All can produce excellent large prints in terms of detail if enough care is taken, but of course going up in format will improve things.

#1 is that MF is all about quality and to achieve that requires effort, study, practice. Be patient, it's worth it. It took me 3 days and about 200 shots over 5 sessions to get to grips with a 300mm Nikon lens. It took about 7 days and about 300 shots to get good results from the 645DF with two lenses (bearing in mind I shoot MF film already!!). It has taken me almost a year to understand a Leica 50lux and it's many tricks! There are still thousands of situations in which I would not know what to do with the DF for maximum results, it's going to take a few more months of regular usage to get a significant body of experience with this camera. Learning a new film can take many months.

#2 is that incredible tonal rendition is possible. 16 bits per pixel and large photosites seem to make a great deal of difference. B&W images are gorgeous. There is detail (data) in mid to high tones that I'd never seen before in digital. It really feels like film and incredibly tolerant in the highlights. Small format tends to blow the red channel too quickly and it's really easy to see posterisation on skin highlights and this is why I've never left film. I am totally knocked over by the tonality.

#3 Lens/Look. There's a look to using MF (and more so on LF) that is natural and pleasing. The DM33 full frame captures that look.

#4 Yeah lots of MPixels are obviously a good thing. But this is quite a limited feature unless you do #1. For me #2 and #3 are the most important benefits of MF.

#5 On digital MF. DoF is not just a consideration, it's the WAR ZONE of PERFECTION.

#6 Good Light is more important than anything else to achieving quality. In MF/LF, light is critical.

#7 High ISO (200/400/800 on a DM33) can still achieve #2 and #3 if you have #6! But don't expect the same #4 Nik Define works wonders with TIFs that have no sharpening or noise control btw.

#8 My need for long exposures may mean spending more $$ on a Phase One back , My need for ultimate tonality of large 16 bit photosites may mean keeping the DM33 (actually I ended up here on GetDPI as I'm trying to figure this one out).

#9 The detail of MF allows quite a lot of liberties to be taken with perspective correction in post processing. Reducing one major benefit of LF (of course seeing the final image at capture time and Scheimflug can only be done with movements).

#10 No one right bag has been mentioned already.

#11 You'll be happier once you just accept it is better to spend more on photography than on a car.

 

[pxlamalgm8r]

First post here and I'll just start off by saying that the posts on color shift and other general topics kept me from throwing my back into the ocean.

I debated for a long time about jumping into the MF world of digital. Who am I? I am an advanced amateur photographer with no professional experience. I like abstract, landscape and architectural photography. I love film and the experience of developing and printing with chemicals, but hate the trial and error that comes with it. My MF favorite was the Hassey 501; black with chrome. I really wanted to find a way to combine old school with high tech.

Digital backs have always looked clunky and awkward and very 1st generation (fact or fiction I don't know, but that was my perception). With the introduction of the CFV-39 and CFV-50 from Hasselblad I knew it was the right time to jump in.

My expectations going into this were:
1. Seemless integration with my Hasselblad 501
2. Amazing quality images with "out of this world" resolution
3. No physical cords or cumbersome connectors would be needed
4. My work would look better than with 35mm full frame Canon 5D
5. My software would work with it (Lightroom and Photoshop)

Seemless Integration - perfect integration with no issues whatsoever. I removed the camera back from its packaging (CFV50) and snapped it to the back of the Hassey and it looked just like a film back - but with a bright crisp clear display. Weight felt very similar to a film back. Low profile battery was barely noticeable. No cords, no clunky processes, good user interface.

Image quality - Amazing now (horrible at first). In both Lightroom and Phocus they images would come in with this nasty, baby-poop green tint. They looked great on the back's viewer, but very different when imported into Lightroom or Phocus. No picture in the brochure showed images with the green cast to them, no warnings from the manufacturer, so I thought I had a dud of a sensor. But I found out this is quite common. Once I came to that realization, but anxiety of paying the price for a back let up.

Software - here is where it is falling down. Get ready to have new steps added to your workflow. Color casts. lens vignetting and lens corrections are common when pulled right from the card. Phocus software (supplied with the purchase from Hasselblad) is fantastic at handling the color casts, vignetting and lens correction. There are threads here that talk about Scene Correction (this function is your way of creating a custom color cast/vignetting fix). Lightroom is still not ready for what is needed with these back's.

All in - it will take some time to get used to; is not always intuitive; but is a fantastic way to get back to the the joys of MF photography.

 

[Studio B]

Coming from a MF and LF film background I've always been disappointed with the results from my FF DSLR's. When I found an old Leaf Cantare digital back I was excited to start working with my trusty Mamiya RZ67 again.

Some may laugh at the thought of using such old equipment (hey times are tough, it was in my budget) but I'm amazed at the images this thing still produces. There is such depth/"pop" and sharpness of which I've never seen with the smaller sensors in current DSLR's.

Of course the setup is cumbersome and has alot of wires, but for my application in the studio this combo works and works well.

What have I learned? Don't knock older MF digital technology.

Oh and I have the "On Location" setup with 12v power supply, so it is portable. :ROTFL:

 

[ghoonk]

Just chiming in with my 2 cents, as someone who started down the dark path of MF with a Hasselblad 500CM and acquired an RB67 Pro-SD before hitting a RZ67 Pro, and just picked up a AFD II with Aptus 65s MFDB.

a. MF is bad for my bank account (and marriage - wife finds out about my 'acquisitions' and i'll be dead. she can bury me with my cameras though)

b. DOF on MF is insane. I can shoot at f5.6 and still only get the center sharp. Never had this on my D3s

c. MF cameras are heavy. My lightest MF weighs almost as much as my D3s. And that's shooting with film, not an MFDB

d. ISO performance? What ISO performance? I now learn to shoot at ISO50-200, using as small an aperture as is practically possible, in the best light I can find, at shutter speeds of 1/(focal length x 2). A good day out with my MF systems means hitting the streets with my Hassy or RZ67 loaded up with Delta 3200 film. A day for challenges is using Ektachrome E100.

e. I take more time to create my image. No happy snaps. Camp out, meter, wait for the moment, fire. And remember to remove the dark slide. Nice thing about the AFD II + Aptus 65s is that it does kinda of behave like a DSLR, but all 'roided up.

f. MF isn't a replacement for my 35mm. My D3s is still my primary for concerts and motorsports. My film MFs are for street (the Hassy anyway) and landscapes, and my MFDB system is mostly used on street portraits (and I'm trying to get into fashion photography - not enough models hereabouts )

g. Compose, then shoot. On my 35mm systems, it was more shoot-then-crop in too many cases.

h. In good light, at ISO 50-200, my 5 year old AFD II + Aptus 65S MFDB outperforms the Nikon D3x. The color gradations are in a league of its own, and sharpness is breathtaking. In good light.

i. MF systems are heavy and bulky. Finding a bag for the AFD II is a PITA. Not so bad for 'boxy' systems like the Hassy/RB/RZ since almost every component is square or rectangular. Not so for the AFD II.

I still can't figure out whether it's 'safer' to leave the MFDB on the body during transport, or if I should disconnect it and wrap it in 2-3 layers of Domke wrap. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I never really had to worry about film backs.

Oh, and the danger of hanging out in a forum like this is the temptation to sell my RB67, RZ67, F3T, X100, NEX5 and Bessa R3M kits to contribute towards a CFV-39 fund - bet there's some serious topping up to do...

 

[malmac]

Well I am a MFDB newbie

What have I learner - well more truthfully what am I learning about?

Never new what an LCC was - had used a grey card and colour checker but LCC - now that is part of the process.

Had never used Capture One - now we are using it for all our RAW editing and loving it but still very green.

Loving the detail, dynamic range and 16 bit colour - hating the fact that I have to do practical stuff and can't just emerse myself in endless shooting and editing.

Also have learned that what ever camera you have the best fun is taking the pictures - seeing the world, thinking about how to turn an idea or feeling into an image and then following through to a finished product - you don't need MF to enjoy photography, as many people know - but when you get it right with MF the results are beyound words.


Mal

 

[David Schneider]

b. DOF on MF is insane. I can shoot at f5.6 and still only get the center sharp. Never had this on my D3s

One thing I've found helpful is to use my iPhone to check dof (if I have time or to understand and commit to memory some mf dof facts). I use the app "Simple DoF" because you can put in two camera and just swipe your finger across the screen to go from one to the other. Very handy. I'm not sure they have your mf camera, but you'd be close enough with a Hassie model. I have it set for my Canon 5dMK2 and HasselbladH3d2-->22-39-50. Well worth the $3 or whatever it was.

 

[faneuil]

I agreed about the ISO issue until recently.
I lucked into a great upgrade from P45 to P65+ back.
Sensor plus mode on phase backs is a game changer.
I can happily shoot at ISO 800 and get the shots I want.
Low light shooting is possible.
Sure S+ mode is 15mp -- but super sweet 15mp retaining that MF look.
I had my p45 for 2 years and used it for strobe work only. The P65+ opened up huge possibilities and I am having a blast.

Eric

d. ISO performance? What ISO performance? I now learn to shoot at ISO50-200, using as small an aperture as is practically possible, in the best light I can find, at shutter speeds of 1/(focal length x 2). A good day out with my MF systems means hitting the streets with my Hassy or RZ67 loaded up with Delta 3200 film. A day for challenges is using Ektachrome E100.

 

[GrahamWelland]

What you need to be careful of is pixel peeping. MFD has so much information that when you view it at 100%, you are viewing it in conditions no one else will see the image--no matter how large you print. (Unfortunately, I sometimes think the abbreviation for medium-format digital is OCD.)

This was posted in another thread here about MFD but I thought that it summed up a lot of medium format issues and concerns that we have. We worry about pixel peeping artifacts sometimes that you could never actually see in prints. Ditto MFD = OCD when it comes to gear too! (I'm shamelessly guilty here myself!)

 

[supernewtent]

I thought I'd add my thoughts as I jump into MF digital....

Without a doubt I enjoy slow methodical working, and I am so so drawn to the image quality, which truly is intoxicating - especially for my use, landscapes, mostly B&W.

What I have learnt is that this site is a valuable resource with very helpful people who love the format and are prepared to share what they know. This is simply ace.

I have also leant that the more I read the less I seem to know, yet the more I learn! And that I have a very supportive wife

When I have my system I'll post what I've learned about USING MF digital!

 

[Bryan Stephens]

I am just getting into MFD, after shooting MF film for 12 years with both a Hasselblad and prior to that a Mamiya 645, so I am somewhat familiar with those two systems.

I currently shoot Nikon D3s for mainly sports and action, but miss the extreme detail and saturation I was able to get with my MF and am looking to venture back into MF in the digital format. As this is not a small expense, I want to be sure that I do it right the first time.

I have been reading a lot about the various systems out there and how they compare and am overwhelmed. I am looking at three different systems for both studio and also for scenics. I have looked at the H4 system, the PhaseOne and the Leica S2 as I know all three are excellent but I am not sure of the advantages each would provide.

Not sure if this is the right thread on this, but any suggestions would be very welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Bryan