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Thread: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

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    More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Lloyd had posted some interesting new information: http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/index.html

    Most of it is in the subscription site, but there is a nice image illustrating the issue on his blog.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Saw it - so much for 'devoid' of aberrations... 'Once more into the breach' I guess as they used to say.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Saw it - so much for 'devoid' of aberrations... 'Once more into the breach' I guess as they used to say.
    this is very reminiscent of the initial M8 troubles with infrared contamination: leica is again surprised that one of their digital products has a serious IQ defect. and the search for a fix is on only afterwards, instead of having made appropriate design decisions beforehand. last time it was filters on the lenses for use on the M8, this time it will be software. as much as i like leica as a small company with excellent opto-mechanical know-how, one cannot deny a lack of experience in the digital arena. it seems that we pay the early-adopter tax heavily with the S2. i do believe that the S3 will be a wonderful product. leica, we do NEED an upgrade path as usual in the MF world!!!!!
    peter

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Lloyd's test was a bit of a worst case, but no different than anyone here would do if suspicious of a lens/body performance. The results are nasty enough that any high-end CanNikon body/lens combo showing similar results would have various forums inflamed by now.

    Problem is that unlike their very resilient and forgiving/patient M user base, the tolerance with issues in the S2's snack bracket among agnostic pros (who will be the ones that determine if the S Program lives or dies outside the early adopter bubble --and thus IF there is ever any S3) will not be very robust.

    Also, if you're going to tout your gear as faultless and 'devoid' of issues and thus not worth 'wasting..' $$ on software correction, you may want to be sure the self-confidence is backed up by reality.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Wow..the piling on just continues . What a distorted reporting of Lloyd s report. Let me quote a few of lloyd s comments..."there is nothing "wrong" with the Leica Summarit 70mm f2.5 ASPH". I have shared emails with Lloyd on the issue of proprietary software and the S2.

    Let me share a few observations from my emails with lloyd..his comments : (1) agreed Leica s claim of a perfect lens is overstated. (2) the Leica 70mm is equal or better than any lens he has used (3)the 70mm exhibits no lateral chromatic aberrations ..the issue is Axis Chromatic aberrations (4) the 70mm summarit is better than any M lens available (5) the issue of ACA is overstated as it is common in every lens he has tested except for two F4 specialty lenses. It should be expected in a fast lens like the summarit .

    He is not addressing the value of proprietary software . I would love to see a test of the Phase and HB systems as Lloyd has done it . Take a fast lens and show that you can eliminate the ACA with the software.

    Lets be realistic ..Leica isn t going to develop a proprietary software product. This does not mean that they will never have a good to excellent raw conversion. I am pretty happy with the M9 file conversions in either C1 or LR3(neither proprietary) and to my eye they are pretty close(and both are pretty great). I do consider this an important issue but not because the ACA corrections aren t perfect.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    In the interest of disclosure, I am a consumer of photographic equipment. Not a dealer, not a designer, not an engineer.

    This thread began when a lens designer decided to point out some possibly less-than-favorable conclusions regarding a rival lensmaker's product - in this case, Leica. I don't think this scenario reflects positively on the poster, and is unlikely to lead to productive dialogue. Leica definitely shouldn't get a free pass, but the discussion would feel more frank if interested parties weren't the ones leading out the conversation.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Wow..the piling on just continues . What a distorted reporting of Lloyd s report. Let me quote a few of lloyd s comments..."there is nothing "wrong" with the Leica Summarit 70mm f2.5 ASPH". I have shared emails with Lloyd on the issue of proprietary software and the S2.

    Let me share a few observations from my emails with lloyd..his comments : (1) agreed Leica s claim of a perfect lens is overstated. (2) the Leica 70mm is equal or better than any lens he has used (3)the 70mm exhibits no lateral chromatic aberrations ..the issue is Axis Chromatic aberrations (4) the 70mm summarit is better than any M lens available (5) the issue of ACA is overstated as it is common in every lens he has tested except for two F4 specialty lenses. It should be expected in a fast lens like the summarit .

    He is not addressing the value of proprietary software . I would love to see a test of the Phase and HB systems as Lloyd has done it . Take a fast lens and show that you can eliminate the ACA with the software.

    Lets be realistic ..Leica isn t going to develop a proprietary software product. This does not mean that they will never have a good to excellent raw conversion. I am pretty happy with the M9 file conversions in either C1 or LR3(neither proprietary) and to my eye they are pretty close(and both are pretty great). I do consider this an important issue but not because the ACA corrections aren t perfect.

    i am not surprised that typical M-users are not unhappy with the CA performance of the S 70mm lens. some of the fast M-lenses themselves are very prone to CA, like the 21mm and 24mm LUXes. clearly the top nikons show much less CA (like the 24mm f1.4), but this is most likely due to the AA filter infront of the nikon CMOS sensors. in the final analysis i am very impressed by the HC lenses, which show -in PHOCUS- much less CA than the leicas.
    i claim the LR is a burden.
    peter

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Roger, I think the issue is Leica in fact seems to think that no dedicated software is needed.

    Either way how good the lenses are - they all need (or can take) additional software optimizing.
    Even Schneider provides a so called "digital center filter" (upcoming Photoshop plugin) to correct light falloff. Either way how good the plugin is - at least they offer something.
    Alpa provides the "Alpa Lens Corrector" to correct distortion for Rodenstock and Digitar lenses.
    What? These top notch large format lenses show distortion??? Yes, they do - and the manufacturers do not negate it.

    The S2 shows moire, purple fringing and CA. So what? Nothing particularily wrong with it (and it doesn't make the 70mm a bad lens!).
    But they should offer something to correct it… actually very simple.

    I wouldn't be happy with LR3 or C1 for the M9… I've seen quite some images that show color cast (wide angles).
    Not Leicas fault… that's how sensors work today.
    But Leica should feel responsible to offer something for accurate results. IMHO they should provide a LCC tool for the M9.

    To adress your question: C1 corrects all CAs and purple fringing with my Contax lenses even in situations that are extremely prone to show abberations (heavy backlight etc.). Except with the 2.0/80 at f2.0 as the color fringing can be a bit too "glowy" wide open under extreme conditions.
    OTOH I do not find the moire correction very good in C1. However they provide something that is doable (requires further Photoshoph work though… IMO) - they do not say that the problem is non-existent.

    So… Leica's fault is not in what they offer (the 70mm)… it's in what they do not offer…

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Peter

    I am likewise not surprised by your comments but I can assure I am anything but a typical M user. (insulting again as expected).

    You have a decent track record in picking up on any and all complaints about the S2 performance . My comments above were primarily quotes from lloyd . I would suggest that anyone really interested read his Lloyd s report and start with the conclusion.

    Why not do the test with your Hasselblad s to show how lenses that are f2.5 or faster handle ACA (since I believe Lloyd was clear on the fact that this is an issue with faster designs) . It looked like a simple test just a ball of aluminum foil. If you feel so strongly that the HB lenses have much less CA or that the software takes it out..where are the tests . But I believe Lloyd s point was that fast lenses like the 2.5 summarit should be expected to have ACA and that its not reasonable to compare them to a 3.5 lens.

    Still waiting to see any of your tests ..haven t you owned the S2 now twice ?

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by NotXorc View Post
    This thread began when a lens designer decided to point out some possibly less-than-favorable conclusions regarding a rival lensmaker's product - in this case, Leica.
    Hi There
    Can you explain that a bit more fully - I'm confused

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    Can you explain that a bit more fully - I'm confused
    Jono, I am advocating a bit more disclosure. The discussion started when a poster with a vested interest failed to openly disclose that he designs lenses which are competitors to the Leica system. Not trying to ostracize the poster or discussions which are unfavorable to Lecia.

    After Lloyd's review, I feel like I know the S2 gestalt as well as possible without some field time with the instrument. Like any product it has some room for improvement, but if anything, I'm more impressed with the optical system than before. Hope that helps!

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by NotXorc View Post
    Jono, I am advocating a bit more disclosure. The discussion started when a poster with a vested interest failed to openly disclose that he designs lenses which are competitors to the Leica system. Not trying to ostracize the poster or discussions which are unfavorable to Lecia.

    After Lloyd's review, I feel like I know the S2 gestalt as well as possible without some field time with the instrument. Like any product it has some room for improvement, but if anything, I'm more impressed with the optical system than before. Hope that helps!
    Thank you - that seems pretty clear!
    IMHO There is an unfortunate side effect to pay sites in that the remarks can be reported i a pretty lop-sided way, and unless you pay you can't really check it out.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    "The discussion started when a poster with a vested interest failed to openly disclose that he designs lenses which are competitors to the Leica system."

    Isn't this irrelevant? The original post was a link to someone else's test. It didn't disparage Leica or its lenses. It is all but certain that someone would have posted that link sooner or later. Would that have changed anything?

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "The discussion started when a poster with a vested interest failed to openly disclose that he designs lenses which are competitors to the Leica system."

    Isn't this irrelevant? The original post was a link to someone else's test. It didn't disparage Leica or its lenses. It is all but certain that someone would have posted that link sooner or later. Would that have changed anything?
    One thing is for sure - any discussion of the S2 around here always ends in tears!

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Isn't this irrelevant? The original post was a link to someone else's test. It didn't disparage Leica or its lenses. It is all but certain that someone would have posted that link sooner or later. Would that have changed anything?
    True; it probably is irrelevant. Just my frustration about getting sucked into yet another thread about the S2.
    Over and . . . . . . . out.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    While the OP is the designer of the Coastal Optics 60 Macro (drool), it in no way shape or form competes with any S lens. It's solely used by Lloyd as one example of a very well corrected lens. Trust me, had the Leica been CA-free you can be certain any number of folks would happily have posted the link. It really doesn't matter (as was said earlier) who put the link up, it only matters how objective the tester was -in this case very.

    The issue isn't beating on the S2 for }#% and giggles, or that an S2 lens shows CA. The issue some have, self included, is that Leica takes great pains to take childish public digs at their well-established competitors (jabs you don't see them take in turn) in the sector they JUST entered (after how many years out of the DSLR game?) about how their new lenses are peerless, 'devoid of ___', etc., with no need to 'lower' themselves to software correction when the truth plainly says otherwise. Good, yes. Great maybe, yes. Peerless/devoid of issue and thus not needing any 'wasted' $$ in post-capture correction? Nope.

    If you're going to brag loudly about your, uh, relative 'manhood' vs your teammates/fans, the locker room evidence had better back it up....

    Want to show your products ace the competition? Market of course, but cut the childish/unprofessional digs at the Swedes & Danes and let your product carry it's own bragging rights. Let the sales numbers, RAW image evidence and buyer testimonials say it for you. If your right, the market will make it self-evident. Show first, brag later, or pay the price in credibility and be ready to cowboy-up to take the critique accordingly.

    Manufacturer's can brag all they want about their gear, but the rubber hits the road at the buyer's wallets. If the S2 'formula' (tech, lenses, form factor, market position, etc., etc) is the end-all-be-all Solms positions it as (they really do go that step too far sometimes) and many feel it is or could be, it will quickly become evident if theory is reality or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by NotXorc View Post
    Jono, I am advocating a bit more disclosure. The discussion started when a poster with a vested interest failed to openly disclose that he designs lenses which are competitors to the Leica system. Not trying to ostracize the poster or discussions which are unfavorable to Lecia.

    After Lloyd's review, I feel like I know the S2 gestalt as well as possible without some field time with the instrument. Like any product it has some room for improvement, but if anything, I'm more impressed with the optical system than before. Hope that helps!
    Last edited by robmac; 26th July 2010 at 14:25.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Rob

    It doesn t take much convincing for most forum participants to believe that Leica tends to become quite arrogant when discussing their lenses. But that has little to do with Lloyd s testing unless the intent was to pull out the ACA issue and stick it in someones face. To do so and to leave out the positive findings and Lloyd s conclusion that the Leica glass is nothing short of great..if not perfect.....seems ingenuous.

    IMHO the only thing wrong with the S2 glass is that its not available.

    This is of course not true of many other aspects of the S2 offering which may make having great design and great glass less relevant.

    Of course but what would I know I am only a typical M user .

    Roger

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Hey Roger,

    If folks would actually read Lloyd's (excellent and well worthwhile) reviews vs. just xth-hand snippets from them, it would be obvious he likes a lot of aspects about the S2, including (or especially) the resolving power and construction of the the glass (as you'd expect from a modern Leica lens). That said he also doesn't shy away from showing the warts. I don't agree with all of Lloyd's conclusions on any given lens/body, but that doesn't take way from the pains he goes to show be as fair and 'real life' as possible.

    I view Peter's views on the S2 as a former owner no different than an owner who thought it walked on water and posted those views whenever he felt like it. Hell, the more varied owner feedback I could see, the more comfortable I'd be that it's actually going to succeed in the market, and thus spawn an S3, etc., as it would mean it's getting into more and more studio safes/owner bags (*).

    Cheers

    Rob

    (*) Before a reader of this post is tempted to pull that tired ".... too busy shooting with it to talk about it on the web" chestnut out of the hat, stop and think first...
    Last edited by robmac; 26th July 2010 at 16:04.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Peter

    I am likewise not surprised by your comments but I can assure I am anything but a typical M user. (insulting again as expected).

    You have a decent track record in picking up on any and all complaints about the S2 performance . My comments above were primarily quotes from lloyd . I would suggest that anyone really interested read his Lloyd s report and start with the conclusion.

    Why not do the test with your Hasselblad s to show how lenses that are f2.5 or faster handle ACA (since I believe Lloyd was clear on the fact that this is an issue with faster designs) . It looked like a simple test just a ball of aluminum foil. If you feel so strongly that the HB lenses have much less CA or that the software takes it out..where are the tests . But I believe Lloyd s point was that fast lenses like the 2.5 summarit should be expected to have ACA and that its not reasonable to compare them to a 3.5 lens.

    Still waiting to see any of your tests ..haven t you owned the S2 now twice ?
    roger,
    sorry, but i did not intend to say that you are a typical M user....you got that all wrong. i wanted to point out that leica has a track record in producing lens/sensor design with CA problems and that their customers have consistently ignored this issue (see threads over in the M9 forum about the 24mm LUX etc).
    i have posted shots here done with the HC 100mm f2.2 which shows CA wide open when developed in PHOCUS but the issue goes away at f3.8-f4. this is not the case with the 70mm Summarit + LR 3 combo.
    my main criticism refers to leica seeing issues too late and to their (and their fanboys) arrogance implying perfection of their optical designs.
    other than that i do like the S2 and we took it along on the trip to israel now to check it in real life situations.
    peter

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Peter

    My issue with your post and several others ..is that (1)its not a balanced view of anything(thats my opinion) (2) its taken out of context to the extent that its different from the reviewers conclusions. (this is a fact).

    The post was about Lloyd s review and you selectively extracted some of his tests to support the same arguments you have been making for months.

    (1)Leica is arrogant (and it transcends to the Leica Fan Boys).

    (2) The S2 glass isn t perfect.

    (3) The available software provides little if any support for lens aberrations.

    But you left out the part about Lloyd saying ....there is nothing wrong with the lens , he has never seen anything better and doubts that anyone can make a better lens and on balance he thinks Leica got the lenses right.

    I apologize for repeating myself .

    Roger




    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    roger,
    sorry, but i did not intend to say that you are a typical M user....you got that all wrong. i wanted to point out that leica has a track record in producing lens/sensor design with CA problems and that their customers have consistently ignored this issue (see threads over in the M9 forum about the 24mm LUX etc).
    i have posted shots here done with the HC 100mm f2.2 which shows CA wide open when developed in PHOCUS but the issue goes away at f3.8-f4. this is not the case with the 70mm Summarit + LR 3 combo.
    my main criticism refers to leica seeing issues too late and to their (and their fanboys) arrogance implying perfection of their optical designs.
    other than that i do like the S2 and we took it along on the trip to israel now to check it in real life situations.
    peter

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Roger your forgetting one important item , the lens is no better at the end of the processing chain than the Phase 80D and most likely the Hassy 80 . It's the delivered item that counts. Besides all that twice or more the price, so the head scratching begins and without the software that helps it eliminate the CA and other aberrations than you start having a rash on your head. I always get it down to what makes sense in the end. The S2 is a beauty but it's only skin deep.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by NotXorc View Post
    Jono, I am advocating a bit more disclosure. The discussion started when a poster with a vested interest failed to openly disclose that he designs lenses which are competitors to the Leica system. Not trying to ostracize the poster or discussions which are unfavorable to Lecia.

    After Lloyd's review, I feel like I know the S2 gestalt as well as possible without some field time with the instrument. Like any product it has some room for improvement, but if anything, I'm more impressed with the optical system than before. Hope that helps!
    Yes, I design lenses. But the vast majority of them will never be seen by the public, and the handful that will are hardly competitors to Leica. I'm about as much competition to Leica as Leica is competition to all other photographic companies combined.

    The thing that interests me about Lloyd's recent studies is they suggest that purple fringing seems to be mainly due to longitunal color in the deep violet, and has nothing to do with "sensor blooming" or microlenses etc. Knowledge is a good thing, and incorrect myths are a bad thing, in my view.

    I found out about Lloyd's CA study early because he had asked me a couple of questions. Honestly, I only posted a link to it because I knew that readers here were interested in the topic. In the future I will be less naive about the likelihood of hostility.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Frankly there should be zero hostility here and everyone knows it. Not sure why we continue to see it on Leica S2 threads. People seem to not accept once again Leica is not perfect nor is anyone else for that matter but certainly stands out on Leica products. Maybe that says something
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Roger your forgetting one important item , the lens is no better at the end of the processing chain than the Phase 80D and most likely the Hassy 80 . It's the delivered item that counts. Besides all that twice or more the price, so the head scratching begins and without the software that helps it eliminate the CA and other aberrations than you start having a rash on your head. I always get it down to what makes sense in the end. The S2 is a beauty but it's only skin deep.
    Guy

    I am not forgetting a thing. My issue is simple and you just changed the subject . Lloyd did a completely independent test and gave his opinion. He was looking at the files . Before he did the test I made him completely aware of all the issues regarding the use of proprietary software.

    Several posters just took the negative findings and pulled them out of context . Reporting on the CA without balancing this with his thoughts on the overall quality of the glass or his conclusions.

    If you just read the comments you would think his POV in the review was that the Leica glass sucked. If the poster says I disagree with Lloyd and don t think he considered the full image chain(OK difference of opinion is healthy) but when they say did you see the terrible problem with CA reported by LLoyd ....and then slam Leica for a full paragraph. I don t think that right and it kills the value of open discussion .

    What is frustrating is that absolutely nothing can be discussed about the S2 on this forum without hearing the same line of thinking. Do I really need to repeat it again?

    Consider that photographers have different requirements ,different budgets , different preferences and different skills. They might have the $$$ to buy MF but like the handling and size of a D3X. They might be on a budget and this is betting the bank to get that one special system. The might have shoots that can never be replicated or they might be able to simply switch to different gear. Point is you can learn from different perspectives ..but only if you allow them to be heard.

    It frustrating to hear my friends start to say ..you can t talk about the S2 on this forum.

    I would appreciate it if we could just let this drop here. This thread is ruined and I apologize to everyone that contributed. I think it was time to call out the slamming of the S2 in each and every post. Plenty of great insights get lost this way..but I didn t feel I should just let lloyd s report get distorted to such an extent.

    Guy if you feel obligated to have the last word please respond to my issue of distorted reporting ..its the only thing at issue. The rest is just opinion differences on the s2 and don t need to be repeated.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    It frustrating to hear my friends start to say ..you can t talk about the S2 on this forum.
    Well, you can't . . . at least, of course, you can, but even before it was released it was impossible to have a discussion which didn't end up boiling down to a criticism of Leica's arrogance, and the lack of software, together with the overrated lenses, and of course the fanboys (my do I dislike that expression!).

    I don't think anyone is to blame . . . . it just seems that cool rational S2 discussion is not compatible with GETdpi, odd, as almost all other rational discussions are fine.

    I guess we just have to live with it.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Guy

    I am not forgetting a thing. My issue is simple and you just changed the subject . Lloyd did a completely independent test and gave his opinion. He was looking at the files . Before he did the test I made him completely aware of all the issues regarding the use of proprietary software.

    Several posters just took the negative findings and pulled them out of context . Reporting on the CA without balancing this with his thoughts on the overall quality of the glass or his conclusions.

    If you just read the comments you would think his POV in the review was that the Leica glass sucked. If the poster says I disagree with Lloyd and don t think he considered the full image chain(OK difference of opinion is healthy) but when they say did you see the terrible problem with CA reported by LLoyd ....and then slam Leica for a full paragraph. I don t think that right and it kills the value of open discussion .

    What is frustrating is that absolutely nothing can be discussed about the S2 on this forum without hearing the same line of thinking. Do I really need to repeat it again?

    Consider that photographers have different requirements ,different budgets , different preferences and different skills. They might have the $$$ to buy MF but like the handling and size of a D3X. They might be on a budget and this is betting the bank to get that one special system. The might have shoots that can never be replicated or they might be able to simply switch to different gear. Point is you can learn from different perspectives ..but only if you allow them to be heard.

    It frustrating to hear my friends start to say ..you can t talk about the S2 on this forum.

    I would appreciate it if we could just let this drop here. This thread is ruined and I apologize to everyone that contributed. I think it was time to call out the slamming of the S2 in each and every post. Plenty of great insights get lost this way..but I didn t feel I should just let lloyd s report get distorted to such an extent.

    Guy if you feel obligated to have the last word please respond to my issue of distorted reporting ..its the only thing at issue. The rest is just opinion differences on the s2 and don t need to be repeated.
    Roger I do not need the last word in the slightest but i will point out that every review, every discussion comes down to some real basic issues, here is another case of just tacking them on. Is there something new here that has not been said before in some way shape or form. You seem to take exception to everything negative said about the S2, that is your choice but guys like Peter that actually bought the thing TWICE is the guy that you keep hammering on. I find that pretty damn funny.

    I honestly have nothing to say on this subject AT ALL. I will never buy it and that is a fact unless something radical happens for the better. I will not respond to Lloyds review as professional courtesy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Jono,

    With all respect, (edit) ah, forget it ...

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Roger I do not need the last word in the slightest but i will point out that every review, every discussion comes down to some real basic issues, here is another case of just tacking them on. Is there something new here that has not been said before in some way shape or form. You seem to take exception to everything negative said about the S2, that is your choice but guys like Peter that actually bought the thing TWICE is the guy that you keep hammering on. I find that pretty damn funny.

    I honestly have nothing to say on this subject AT ALL. I will never buy it and that is a fact unless something radical happens for the better. I will not respond to Lloyds review as professional courtesy


    But you don t respond to the issue that I raised several times. Peter has taken other peoples test reports out of context and presented misleading information on two occasions. He distorted lloyd s findings as he did the test reports from German magazine on the LUF. Those are facts .

    Rather than respond to the distortions (reporting out of context) you go back to attacking the complainer(me ).

    If you expect an open dialogue you can not allow material misrepresentations stand. You never once even gave lip service to the whole point of my complaint.

    I am done .

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Jono,

    With all respect, (edit) ah, forget it ...


    Perhaps I should've done that too

    Having said that, you did leave the with all respect bit (which, of course, means just the opposite)
    Last edited by jonoslack; 27th July 2010 at 11:51.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Me too . Okay back to work in NY
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    roger,
    i never referred to lloyd's tests. i did not read it and, honestly, i am not interested in reading further S2 tests. i referred to my own experience with the camera.
    peter


    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Peter

    My issue with your post and several others ..is that (1)its not a balanced view of anything(thats my opinion) (2) its taken out of context to the extent that its different from the reviewers conclusions. (this is a fact).

    The post was about Lloyd s review and you selectively extracted some of his tests to support the same arguments you have been making for months.

    (1)Leica is arrogant (and it transcends to the Leica Fan Boys).

    (2) The S2 glass isn t perfect.

    (3) The available software provides little if any support for lens aberrations.

    But you left out the part about Lloyd saying ....there is nothing wrong with the lens , he has never seen anything better and doubts that anyone can make a better lens and on balance he thinks Leica got the lenses right.

    I apologize for repeating myself .

    Roger

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Peter has taken other peoples test reports out of context
    Peter quoted "robmac" ...
    Besides - as a (multiple) Leica user - he is totally entitled to his opinion.
    Too - even if we all agree that the S2 is the best camera ever made and the lenses are from another planet... the damn thing exhibits color artifacts (as all the damn digital things do). And the manufacturer leaves the problem to the customers.

    edit: Peter was ahead of me...

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Jono,

    Read into it what you will, but when I mean without respect, there's never any doubt about it whatsoever.

    General

    I would hazard to guess that unlike almost all other forums, this is one whose members have, in all likelihood, spent good $$ on and enjoyed at LEAST one Leica product over the years, self included. While ownership of a Leica product past/present obviously isn't required to have an opinion, that ownership experience in this pool of users is almost certainly created a forum base where the most balanced opinions, strident or tame, leaning one way or the other, on the S2 and Leica as a firm are going to come from.

    As for myself or Peter focusing on a negative aspect of Lloyds review, such is our perogative as we found his latest testing results interesting. No different than had we highlighted a glowingly positive aspect of same in our/my opening comments. If my "Once more into the breach" comment in my initial post is causing any angst, it was referring to the fact that this test would spark yet more debate - NO reference to any issue with the M8/9, etc.

    No one should feel they need to, nor should they re-create Lloyd's or anyone's else's review in it's entirety here. Folks wishing to read it from beginning to end with all it's praises and criticisms know where to find it.
    Last edited by robmac; 27th July 2010 at 13:32.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Peter you have my apology. I assumed incorrectly that you were referencing the Diglloyd test as evidence supporting your findings. If not then it was my mistake.

    Thomas
    In no way did I challenge his opinion on the S2 and ,of course, to make a forum work you have to accept that photographers will come from different perspectives. That was never the point .

    On balance Lloyd did NOT find the color artifacts to be a issue of enough significance to label the lenses as unacceptable. He does a pretty good job IMHO of giving you enough facts to make your own conclusions. His conclusions I posted but in summary he was very impressed by the Leica lenses.

    I spoke with the OP today . He is the lens designer for Coastal Optics ..I would say that he is IMHO as knowledgeable as they come in the design of lenses that correct for all forms of aberrations . It was his opinion that the aberrations present in the S2 lenses are inherent in the design of fast lens with a large coverage area and that they can not be corrected in software beyond desaturation. (so Leica would not have a solution with proprietary software if I understood him correctly).

    It would be quite useful if someone with a Phase or HB would run Lloyd s test (looks pretty easy) and then show how the "magicware" removes the CA. LLoyd ran the tests on the 24lux and the Noct .95 and used Capture One and it had no impact(zero change) and both lenses were about the same as the 70 summarit.

    This in no way makes the leica glass unsuitable unless full elimination of CA is just critical for your application. The newest M glass 21/24/50 have at least this much ACA and I can t find a way to properly correct it. I would be a lot more interested in hearing about how photographers are correcting for it with the M9 . This is a pretty popular camera and not many people bitch about the 50 noctilux .

    I think repeating POV s however valid day in day out on every thread about the S2 is beyond tiresome and discourages people that would like to overcome issues with the S2 or at least understand them correctly. This is similar to the Leica user forum when a person reports a problem ..you get 25 posts that there cameras are working perfect ..so you must be a moron or at least an exception. No one wants to contribute after three paragraphs of ranting about how FU leica is.

    I can only wonder as Guy said why someone would buy a S2 twice within a few months and then report almost daily why he finds it lacking . No balance ..like with a M9 ..you accept the limitations to gain the benefits ..just the negatives. But I don t want to misquote someone or read something into a post that wasn t intended.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    As for Peter or I focusing on a negative aspect of Lloyds review, such is our perogative. No different than has we highlighted a positive aspecy of same - im our/my opening comments. We should not feel we need to nor should we re-create his review here. Folks wishing read it fr beginning to end know where to find it.
    Rob - you missed my point, which was simply that any discussion about the S2 here degenerates into a fight. (Maybe I put it badly, but Tell me that it ain't true)

    . . . and later that any remark which begins with with respect means exactly the opposite. (tell me that it ain't true)

    I know Peter slightly, and i understand his opinions about the S2 (both good and bad). (I was going to say I respect them too ).

    I don't have a personal opinion on the S2 or lenses, and I don't have a vested interest as I'm not planning on buying any MF camera.

    But I do think that there is some issue about selective quoting from something that others must pay for . . . call me pernickety if you will (but I'm sure you'll do it with respect )

    Worth saying Rob that i do respect you, and this is intended to be good natured!

    all the best
    Last edited by jonoslack; 27th July 2010 at 13:32. Reason: Just to say

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Rob

    I apologized to Peter because he quoted you and hadn t read the review. It is obvious that you did read the review and understood Lloyd s POV on the subject. But thats not what you presented ..you did nothing less than take his quotes out of context and leave the reader with a totally different viewpoint. You do not have the right to selectively edit as you did with your post. I am disappointed that you believe you have the prerogative to do so. That s my POV of course but its shared by at least a few people.

    This forum needs a time out on the Leica S2 bashing ....you are loosing the contributions of some excellent members.

    Now I am done (thought I owed Peter an apology) . This is my last post on the MF forum.

    Roger


    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Jono,

    Read into it what you will, but when I mean without respect, there'd be no doubt about it whatsoever ;>

    I would hazard to guess that unlike almost all other forums, this is one whose members have, in all likelihood, owned and enjoyed at LEAST one Leica product over the years, self included. While ownership of a Leica product over the years isn't required to have an opinion, that ownership experience in this pool of users is almost certainly created a forum base where the most balanced opinions on the S2 and Leica as a firm are going to come from.

    As for Peter or I focusing on a negative aspect of Lloyds review, such is our perogative as we found his latest testing results interesting, neither of us were. No different than had we highlighted a positive aspecy of same - im our/my opening comments. We should not feel we need to nor should we re-create his review here. Folks wishing read it fr beginning to end know where to find it.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    No worries

    As for 'respect', yes, it can be a form of insult, but I prefer the more direct less obtuse approach :>

    I have no issues with debate as long as people don't take it personally - it's just a bloody camera and non are perfect by any means.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    As for 'respect', yes, it can be a form of insult, but I prefer the more direct less obtuse approach :>
    I have no issues with debate as long as people don't take it personally
    Then you shouldn't use cliches which everybody understands to be meant to be insulting . . . . or at least.... of course you can use them, not a big issue, but don't expect people to understand that you are the exception to the rule and don't mean it as an insult.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Roger,

    It's my turn now I guess. If that's what yourself and some other's views as to my intent in giving my comments on Lloyd's test, it is mistaken, but so be it. Not much I can nor care to try and do about it. My intent was clear and simple with no desire to misrepresent anything - I'd seen the review and was not impressed by the level of CA shown from lenses supposedly 'devoid' of issues sans software.

    Jono - Once more when I mean WAR, I mean WAR. Others are free to (mis)use it as they see fit. I'm not going to insult someone, especially via verbal slight of hand, over their opinion.

    Personally this thread with 'disappointment', etc., has hit a new low, so as far as the S2, I'm out. Enough is enough.
    Last edited by robmac; 27th July 2010 at 14:22.

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    Jono - Once more when I mean WAR, I mean WAR.
    Gotcha Rob - sorry to be so silly . . . and when you SAY war - you don't mean anything at all - Right?

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    That was an interesting choice of acronym when you think of it - lets revise it to W.A.R

    Take care

    R

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    That was an interesting choice of acronym when you think of it - lets revise it to W.A.R

    Take care

    R
    Ahhh! Women Against Rape
    or possibly:
    Woolmead Avenue Residents association

    I think that's definitely a place to stop

    Its bedtime here - have a nice evening.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More on longitudinal color in the 70/2.5 S2 lens

    Well we do know at least one thing here at GetDPI... And that is that Leica consumer loyalism is eons above that of any other manufacturer's.

    And to be fair, I think the S2 can certainly be discussed intelligently here -- it just isn't going to get the holy grail supply of get out of jail free cards it gets elsewhere.

    Sorry, but I'm not going to sit idly by and be insulted because folks here tell it like they see it.

    Folks, it's a damn camera! An inanimate object, a tool, a toy or even a piece of jewelry to some. It has plusses and minuses just like every system. If you can live with them, great. If you can't then that's fine too. Either way, you remain free to discuss them as long as do so politely!

    Now, if you want to "enjoy" the MF forum, I suggest you grab a beverage and peruse the MF images thread.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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