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Thread: HD4-40 or S2

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    HD4-40 or S2

    I am ready to jump into the inferno and purchase a medium format camera system. I have looked at 3 major systems: Mamiya-Phase, Hasselblad and the Leica S2. I have narrowed it down to the S2 and the H4-40. In favor of the Leica is the form factor and the potential for the lenses. In favor of the H4-40 is that Hasselblad is in its fourth generation. I am curious how the lenses are. In both cases I have dealt with smaller format lenses of both companies: Leica M lenses and xPan lenses. I am going to use the camera for panoramic images and some portrait images.

    Any comments for pros and cons of each system. Thanks for your help in advance, and I have really enjoyed and learned from this forum

    Scott

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    I think nobody can really give you the right advice which one is the best for you. Finally only you can make the desicion. Apart from the technical data, there is a personal feeling if you like to make pictures with one or the other MF cam.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    What I can say is that initially I also went for the Leica S2 especially so for the way the body fils, more like what I am accustom to for many years with 35mm bodies, and also for the Lecia lenses, but at the end I ruled out the S2 and now choosing from the Phase-Mamyia, Leaf Mamyia and H4D system, but for me was a matter of resolution as I'm looking at the 60MP range.

    The way the S2 vs any other format fills in your hands is day and night, so this is also very important factor to take consideration of.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Hasselblad together with the Phocus software is phenomenal. Tethering works seamlessly and is very quick. The digital apo correction of Phocus corrects geometry, aberrations and vignetting to produce a result that equals or supercedes Leicas optics. Hasselblad is cheaper and produces fantastic high iso results with the h4d-40. The Leica has a very bad iso reputation, noise gets bad really fast above 160 base iso. Leica is a new system that might or might not survice. The MF market is a tough place with a lot of concentration dynamics in the last years. In the worst case the S2 might be discontinued if not many people jump onto the system and then you have spent a lot of money on a system with no development. Hasselblad uses a modular system which enables you to use a technical camera which in turn lets you use great wide angles lenses that are really superior and that let you stitch to produce huge panos rivalling finest large format prints. There's a healthy second-hand market for Hasselblad glass on ebay etc. whereas a Leica Lens alone costs a fortune. Professionals using the Leica complain about the long file transmission times and lack of workflow solution. If you want to upgrade it is not clear whether you can trade-in your syste - which I doubt, since it is the whole camera - whereas hasselblad and phase have extensive promotions and trade-up programs all the time to keep their customers in the system. So investment security is in the stars.

    The Leica on the other hand has great optics with a heavy price and compact weather sealed body. The bokeh is nice. And it has a red dot.

    If money isn't a constraint, and you don't care about a good tethering workflow or a technical camera, can live with the many uncertainties of the market or the future of the S line, and are more a casual enthusiast, the leica maybe a great choice.

    If you want a proven system for a lot cheaper entry point with a good software that makes the results shine, than you should get the Hassy.

    I have to say that I ordered a H4D-60 and own a M9. In my view the S2 was too expensive for what one gets and I wasn't sure about the future of the system. If I had enough money, I'd get both systems, as it can be nice to have such a form factor.

    Regards

    Paul

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    The digital apo correction of Phocus corrects geometry, aberrations and vignetting to produce a result that equals or supercedes Leicas optics.
    are there any side by side comparisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Hasselblad uses a modular system which enables you to use a technical camera which in turn lets you use great wide angles lenses that are really superior and that let you stitch to produce huge panos rivalling finest large format prints.
    basically, yes. But this does not apply to the H4D40 as the sensor has micro lenses... so this back is not really appropriate for use on a tech camera... especially not with wide angles.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    are there any side by side comparisions?

    basically, yes. But this does not apply to the H4D40 as the sensor has micro lenses... so this back is not really appropriate for use on a tech camera... especially not with wide angles.
    Yes, here:

    http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Has...dortbestimmung

    It's in German but you may be able to translate it with bablefish or something.

    It concludes to say that the Hassy wins in combination with its Phocus software over the S2.

    With regard to the technical camera: Yes you're right, you won't be able to get a one-shot FOV like you can get with a 60mp back. And it's not as good in terms of color cast than a microlenses-free sensor.

    But Captureintegrations clearly showed that the Dalsa Sensor of the P40+ - which I gather is almost the same in the H4D-40 - is still quite useable with a technical camera, albeit the presence of the microlenses:

    http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

    You just have to create your whiteshot and then use Phocus to remove the color casts. In addition to that, if you stitch the sensor size in itself isn't that of a problem anymore ...

    But that's not the point. Leica has good lenses, I love the Summilux 50 1.4 for example, it is a wonderful lens and possibly the best 35mm lens out there. But in the medium format world, I'm not so sure if it matters that much when you pit this against advanced software corrections ... you pay a lot for the brand ...

    Regards
    Paul

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    You can see direct comparisons between the S2 lens and the Phocus corrected lens at about 1/3rd in to the article. You can clearly see that the Hassy has a slight edge even. A bit more below you can see the aberrations corrections etc.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    The P40+ does NOT have micro lenses. Tech cam friendly
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    From my own hands on testing experience your two finalists are very different systems. They may both be MF but there's more about them that's different than similar. If you shoot and handle both I think you'll find a clear preference for one over the other. Not sure that would be the case if you had narrowed it down to, say, the P40+ and the H4D40.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    I wanted to love the Leica S2, but I just simply didn't, cause I prefer to have a Canon 1D IV and a 60MP MF body,and for this I dumped the Leica S2, it just seats in the middle, and now just need to make up my mind with Hassy H4D or Phase ONe DF body w/ P1 + or Leaf DB.

    But I'm sure will still provide for a great system for many, just not for me.

    Mind you I really Love the Leica Glass, and we have a pre-order of the new Leica Cine Lenses set, to use with Red Epic-X cameras, but the Leica S2 just didn't do it for me, yet I really love the S2 series Glass, simply stunning and pricy too

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Well, we had similar discussions and comparisons already very often.

    What I can say as a H user, that the H lenses are not at all second to Leica. You have to consider the IQ as a combination of SW and glass and in the case of H with Phocus (as also in the case of Phase lenses with C1 Pro) both brands rock!

    In the case of the S system the lenses rock for sure (I just belief this as I am a Leica M shooter but do not know the S lenses myself too deep) but the SW - LR3 - obviously does not rock and could be significantly improved for the S2 and their lenses.

    So end of the day you pay a premium today for the S system without getting the premium. If this is worth the money to spend for a better form factor in body etc is an individual decision. I would say that in 1 or 2 years from now, if Leica continues to do their homework and bring the complete S system lens lineup together with an S2 and with really Leica optimized SW, then the S System might be the choice. Not today!

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    The only way to know what you'd be most comfortable shooting is to actually hire / test both products. As soon as I picked up the S2, I liked it. I'd feel much more comfortable shooting it all day for the type of work I do compared to an H body. Sure it's expensive, but form factor is very important. How important, and what it's worth, is up to the individual.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Hasselblad is the clear winner if vesatility matters. The S2 is a niche product. Th H4D series is a fourth generation camera system designed to be a flexible professional tool with exceptional image quality. In my view it really is that simple.

    Quentin
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Yes, here:

    http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Has...dortbestimmung

    It's in German but you may be able to translate it with bablefish or something.

    It concludes to say that the Hassy wins in combination with its Phocus software over the S2.
    true ... I remember that test (no translation required... I am German ). I am finding it a bit misleading as the S2 shots were taken some weeks before the H shots and obviously the light is a bit different.
    However I don't want to state the results wouldn't be the same in a direct side by side comparision... who knows.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Hasselblad is the clear winner if vesatility matters. The S2 is a niche product. Th H4D series is a fourth generation camera system designed to be a flexible professional tool with exceptional image quality. In my view it really is that simple.

    Quentin
    Depends on what tasks you want to put the camera to, does it not? I'm not arguing the H4D isn't better suited to studio and tech cam work (obviously,) or that it isn't a mature and exceptional camera system, but if you want to shoot hand held, or in the field in varied weather conditions, the S2 has some advantages. I'm not a Leica apologist by any means, just think the OP should spend time with each system, working as he normally would, to get an idea of how each feels and performs in areas important to him.

    What I can say for certain is the H4D-40 seems like great value on paper compared to the S2. And the system is complete, now.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Depends on what tasks you want to put the camera to, does it not? I'm not arguing the H4D isn't better suited to studio and tech cam work (obviously,) or that it isn't a mature and exceptional camera system, but if you want to shoot hand held, or in the field in varied weather conditions, the S2 has some advantages. I'm not a Leica apologist by any means, just think the OP should spend time with each system, working as he normally would, to get an idea of how each feels and performs in areas important to him.

    What I can say for certain is the H4D-40 seems like great value on paper compared to the S2. And the system is complete, now.
    Exactly, which is why I said its a niche product. It's niche is as a weather sealed medium format camera that handles like a 35mm camera so it is at an advantge used hand held or in bad weather conditions. The H4D is not a niche product, but a general purpose product that is good at everything, but is not specialised in just one or two areas.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Folks I can shoot a Phase DF handheld all day long so those comments about the s2 are really overstated on handheld. Depends on what style you like and are more comfortable
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    It really boils down to ones own needs, shooting style, and personal preference. I tried the Phase One, Hassy, and Leica offerings at the time and ended up deciding the S2 was right for ME. Others that have done the same thing come to different conclusions. However, those conclusions are also often driven by price. With the great trade-up offers both Phase and Hassy have had in recent months it is very difficult to get the math to work out so one can afford to change brands and go for the Leica S2. If you are new to digital MF (not eligble for trade-up offers) then the math is different. When I bought the S2 it was about a $2,400 more than similar competitive products (price difference may be different now). I was willing to pay the premium to get the S2 ergonomics. For some, like Guy, it isn't worth it, but for me it was.

    I am very happy with my choice. I expect others that choose something different than the S2 will be just as happy - provided they do their homework and know what they are getting suits them.

    This is no magic camera that is and does everything. There are compromises in each of the available digital MF systems. The only correct choice is picking the camera that best suits you.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    I want to thank all of you who have responded to my inquiry. Thank you for taking the time. You have given me some issues that I need to resolve in my head. The most important is how am I going to use the camera. When I finish that soul searching question, I can make my decision.

    Scott

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Tansey View Post
    I want to thank all of you who have responded to my inquiry. Thank you for taking the time. You have given me some issues that I need to resolve in my head. The most important is how am I going to use the camera. When I finish that soul searching question, I can make my decision.

    Scott
    I was in same your situation about 2 years ago, then about 1 year ago i saw all those 3 options [Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica S2], for no reason i dumped that S2 and just kept Hassy and P1, in fact i liked that p1 and Hassy have more mp een it is not a big story these days sometimes, but my head and eyes were on either Hasselblad or Phase One long time before they lunched that S2, but our local dealer gave me an offer on H3DII-39 that i will never dream about it and i went with it in no time, i am so happy with it and that handholding issue was never a problem for me, because i got used to shoot with Canon 1-series with 70-200/300f2.8IS which are heavy so far, and i tested that Hasselblad in the store and i saw it not that heavy and not a problem for me, even when i tested S2 and Phase One DF in NY last year during that Photo Plus, i never had a problem of handholding any camera, so weight for me is not a big deal and i don't make it a big issue to make my decision, i have Mamiya RZ and Hasselblad 501CM, that RZ is so heavy that i hate it, but i really love to use this camera no matter how the weight is, even i use it on my old Manfrotto 190XPROB, later i will buy plates from the film hassy and mamiya to use on my Gitzo tripods, now if i was given the three options now i will go definitely with either Hasselblad or Phase with respect for Leica, i may choose that Leica S2 over Hasselblad 500 series or Mamiya RZ, even i will choose it over the ZD or Mamiya 33 [DM33] or LEAF 28mp.
    Tareq

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    It is somewhat difficult to project what you may or may not do with a camera system ... especially if you have no history with a MFD system. Today it may be one thing, tomorrow another.

    If you are starting from scratch, add up what the system will cost ... including consideration of buying mint used lenses for the Mamiya or Hasselblad.

    You may find that a 3 or 4 lens S2 system will price out at the level of a Hasselblad H4D/50 kit with 3 or 4 lenses, NOT a H4D/40. Perhaps keep it apples to apples when comparing pricing.

    IMO, (and direct experience) the H4D/40 is designed for faster work and a bit lower light photography. The exclusive True Focus/Focus Re-compose is an especially favorable feature for spontaneous photography and selective focus portraits with lenses like the 100/2.2. I also use the 40 to shoot weddings and environmental portraits. I use the H-Tilt/Shift (HTS/1.5) adapter to make panoramic images ... where the Phocus software automatically corrects for any color shift effect the micro lenses may have.

    Like Guy, I do not find shooting with a Mamiya or Hasselblad H for long periods to be an issue, any more than lugging around a Pro 35mm DSLR.
    A hand strap does wonders in either case.

    -Marc

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    hasselblad or mamiya unless you need the leica weathersealing. i did not compare the S2 and the H 40mpx system but (maybe slightly unfair) the S2 and the H3DII50 and the H hasselblad hardware-software combo convincingly wins in the IQ department. mind you, i am not unhappy with the S2 but the leica system is -overall speaking- not yet on the level of the MF contenders, except ergonomics-wise. the S system is a luxury to have but it has limited utility factor. somewhat like the luis vuitton of MF---))))
    IMHO only....
    peter

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    hasselblad or mamiya unless you need the leica weathersealing. i did not compare the S2 and the H 40mpx system but (maybe slightly unfair) the S2 and the H3DII50 and the H hasselblad hardware-software combo convincingly wins in the IQ department. mind you, i am not unhappy with the S2 but the leica system is -overall speaking- not yet on the level of the MF contenders, except ergonomics-wise. the S system is a luxury to have but it has limited utility factor. somewhat like the luis vuitton of MF---))))
    IMHO only....
    peter
    I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusions. I've had some extensive hands on time with the S2 and think it compares quite favorably with the other MF contenders... at least in IQ.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusions. I've had some extensive hands on time with the S2 and think it compares quite favorably with the other MF contenders... at least in IQ.
    I'd tend to agree to some degree re: IQ. The S2 very much compares favorably when the shooting conditions are ideal ... as in "as good as" or maybe slightly better than, other solutions in a similar sensor size, meg count.

    Please forgive the rather long summation and conclusions to follow ... but they were formed by being informed and vigilant to all sides of the discussion.

    IMO, IQ is partly cool and analytical objective science, ... and partly subjective opinion regarding the "look" any given MFD system delivers.

    Except for a few niggles that have yet to be addressed fully by firmware/software, (or some ingenious user solution), the relatively young S2 is hard to fault technically... mostly due to the lenses I think.

    Subjectively, I'm still not convinced of the look produced by the S2. This opinion was formed by trying the camera in great light and not so great light ... and religiously looking at any S2 image I can find. I continue to stalk this camera because on paper it fits much of my current needs to a T.

    Of course, where the science "is what it is", my subjectivity about the "look" is subject to change. So, I keep an open mind as the S2 gets into more hands of photographers with different aesthetic approaches. Time will tell.

    However, for many photographers, practical considerations cannot be jettisoned willy-nilly in favor of subjective passion alone. This practical aspect is also cool and analytical, even if it does incite passionate discourse when comparative pronouncements are made.

    IMO, these cameras are professional level solutions, even if in the hands of those who do not make their living from photography. As such, they are publicly subject to scrutiny as professional solutions.

    Generally, system completeness and flexibility are no small matters for those in need of MFD solutions. That will come for the S2, but in a bit more limited manner. Perhaps other 3rd party add-ons will solve this eventually. Maybe, maybe not. This is not a need for everyone, but true for more photographers than one would guess, including those who don't think they need it only to discover growth is limited as they explore MFD.

    One simply cannot overlook pricing. Even setting aside trade upgrade promos, system pricing places the S2 in a different category of MFD comparison. My trek in this area was simple ... I priced out the whole S2 system and support ... then, without factoring in what I already owned, I searched for what I could get with that amount of money.

    Even if I purchased from scratch, a new H4D/40 with extended support, 3 or 4 lenses, PLUS a certified pre-owned 39 meg Multishot came in roughly the same price as a 3 or 4 lens S2 system with support ... lower if you factor in that I can get used HC lenses and can't for the S2 ... yet.

    So, to me, any trade promo argument was a moot point in a straight price comparison. In fact, I did not use any trade promo when altering my H system.

    This provides me with enormous flexibility with a 2 camera kit: speed and lower light capability with the H4D/40 including the highly practical True Focus feature ... and Multi-Shot IQ that rivals the best digital solutions at any price for my studio applications ... including use of the MS back on various other cameras I already own. The Multishot is still no slouch even in single shot mode, and provides a back-up to the H4D/40 should the need ever occur.

    I remain open to S2 advancements and do not shut it out as a possible solution. Needs change, photographic explorations change, abilities of cameras change.

    -Marc

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusions. I've had some extensive hands on time with the S2 and think it compares quite favorably with the other MF contenders... at least in IQ.
    this judgement shows your patience in dealing with CA in LR3.
    peter

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    Wow Marc,

    elegantly put, and I think we stand in the exact same place as far were our hearths are for the Leica S2, fortunately for me Money is no issue, as I have been awaiting several months to do this, and ready for it financialy now, so I don't put the Price differences amongst systems in to play at all.

    However it remains extremely important the factor that while the Leica S2 system has incredible Optics, the system it self has yet to impress, and on my first rather short test I wasn't sold, now I look to re-test the system along side the Leaf Aptus II 10, which both provide with what I love as far as 3:2 ratio and closer to my 2:1 and 16:9 framing I use in Cinema.

    But as I look forward to get my MF system, I completely agree with you on all points, and I say this al the time even in Motion capture with the various arguments of Red One MX with Epic-X and ALexa from Arri etc. every one's opinion of perfect lighting and perfect Skin tone as well as color, contrast, and so on, varies, I for one have ben told that I have particular taste fro strong contrast and over saturated scenes, to each its own.

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    As has been so well and repeatedly said above, this is highly personal decision. Both camera systems are thoroughly competent and, to my way of thinking and personal experience, the importance of how comfortable you are with the ergonomics and the way each fits your specific needs can not be overstated. I do remain confused by all of the negative comments regarding the S2s' lenses and the problem of CA; I have recently spent several days shooting with an S2 and am convinced that they have the "best" lenses among those which I have had experience with which, in combination with the superb mirror dampening of the body, yielded some of the finest images I have ever shot using a reflex system. I saw no CA with the lenses that I used despite my diligent best efforts and found the rendition to be extremely pleasing and amazingly sharp
    Be careful and thorough in your evaluation, purchasing mistakes are very hard to correct in this arena and extremely expensive...Good Luck!!!

    Douglas Benson

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    Re: HD4-40 or S2

    There is a new review in the german photographie magazine H4D-40 vs. Leica S2:

    http://translate.google.ch/translate...033%26rub%3D14

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