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Thread: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

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    Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Thanks. You have to love high-speed.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    It looks like a sync cable from the back to the lens, i.e. shooting in C mode, using the lens shutter.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    It looks like a sync cable from the back to the lens, i.e. shooting in C mode, using the lens shutter.
    Exactly. Any back will do that. It's simple sync mode. Reduces the 200 series to be the same as a 500 series camera.

    Sorry, still does not demonstrate an untethered back working on a 200 series camera as a focal plane shutter camera with FE lenses.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    1. The lens is the 200 series lens with double blue strips

    2. The cable is link to the body and not to the lens.

    3. The mode was not set to C but to shutter speed above the C

    Observe again!
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    My apologies; part of the tripod head looked like the cable connection to the lens, but it does look like the cable is connected to the camera's flash socket (the digital back section is very brief): does that mean it only works at flash sync speed (1/90 s.) or slower?

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    My apologies; part of the tripod head looked like the cable connection to the lens, but it does look like the cable is connected to the camera's flash socket (the digital back section is very brief): does that mean it only works at flash sync speed (1/90 s.) or slower?
    Arjuna,
    Your question is a good one and this is the part where further clarification is needed. I tried my 205 FCC on the eMotion back a few years ago but cannot remember the speed I was using. My impression at the time was that it can sync to higher than 1/90s but I am not absolute. However, this issue will soon be answered once David gets his adapter.

    -Son
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    1. The lens is the 200 series lens with double blue strips

    2. The cable is link to the body and not to the lens.

    3. The mode was not set to C but to shutter speed above the C

    Observe again!
    Right you are Son ... good eye! I did frame grabs and lightened the images. What appears to be a cord hanging from the lens is actually a chair leg in the background.

    So, we wait for David's report with fingers crossed.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Right you are Son ... good eye! I did frame grabs and lightened the images. What appears to be a cord hanging from the lens is actually a chair leg in the background.

    So, we wait for David's report with fingers crossed.
    Marc,
    I am like you love the Hasselblad 200 series system and so far only Sinar back is willing to give me the extra option to use on the 200 series body even if the outcome is only 1/90s max shutter speed which I hope not from what I remember. The Sinar back will also allow other camera systems to be mounted on so the flexibility is what I like. Today I am still using the Hasselblad CFV 16 meg DB for both the 500 and 200 series without any cable sync requirement.

    Regards,
    Son
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    Marc,
    I am like you love the Hasselblad 200 series system and so far only Sinar back is willing to give me the extra option to use on the 200 series body even if the outcome is only 1/90s max shutter speed which I hope not from what I remember. The Sinar back will also allow other camera systems to be mounted on so the flexibility is what I like. Today I am still using the Hasselblad CFV 16 meg DB for both the 500 and 200 series without any cable sync requirement.

    Regards,
    Son
    You know Son, despite all the goings on about all these other big dollar digital back$, you just cannot discount the CFV. Darned thing is just fantastic ... the images are stellar, and the whole experience is just plain fun. While everyone is yaking about this back and that back, with wallets growing thinner and thinner, guys like John and his CFV are at the naval yard making eye popping photographs ...

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    You know Son, despite all the goings on about all these other big dollar digital back$, you just cannot discount the CFV. Darned thing is just fantastic ... the images are stellar, and the whole experience is just plain fun. While everyone is yaking about this back and that back, with wallets growing thinner and thinner, guys like John and his CFV are at the naval yard making eye popping photographs ...
    yes, makes me almost regret selling my 2000FCM eight years ago )))

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    thanks to what info marc has made available and son's timely deal, I have been having fun with that hassey set, always did like the sq format. took some shots in a very dark spot...needed about 1sec at f2 and iso 100. couldn't remember how to get the shutter into b and stop down... also found out how a 110 keeps you back. anyone know a good wide?

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    thanks to what info marc has made available and son's timely deal, I have been having fun with that hassey set, always did like the sq format. took some shots in a very dark spot...needed about 1sec at f2 and iso 100. couldn't remember how to get the shutter into b and stop down... also found out how a 110 keeps you back. anyone know a good wide?
    Yes, the 45/2.8 Contax!

    or the 40mm HB

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    Marc,
    I am like you love the Hasselblad 200 series system and so far only Sinar back is willing to give me the extra option to use on the 200 series body even if the outcome is only 1/90s max shutter speed which I hope not from what I remember. The Sinar back will also allow other camera systems to be mounted on so the flexibility is what I like. Today I am still using the Hasselblad CFV 16 meg DB for both the 500 and 200 series without any cable sync requirement.

    Regards,
    Son
    Me too Son

    Woody

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    thanks to what info marc has made available and son's timely deal, I have been having fun with that hassey set, always did like the sq format. took some shots in a very dark spot...needed about 1sec at f2 and iso 100. couldn't remember how to get the shutter into b and stop down... also found out how a 110 keeps you back. anyone know a good wide?
    On the 200 camera the speedy 50/2.8 is excellent ... but for the widest and bestists with the CFV, the 40mm f/4 CFE IF is the last word in wide angle excellence. Just set the aperture ring to the F mark and use it on the 200 camera.

    OR there is the incomparible SWC with it's 38mm ... which the CFV also works on (that's what that metal L bracket battery holder that came with the CFV is for.)

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    this 40? are there a couple of versions?
    http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/Produ...&GBC=&GCC=&KW=

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    this 40? are there a couple of versions?
    http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/Produ...&GBC=&GCC=&KW=
    That one is fine. It is the CFE version which is the one I use. The best IQ is the IF version which costs an additional arm ... over and above the arm-and-leg that the CFE one costs

    Using a CFV, I'm not sure how much you gain since the image area is cropped 1.5X on a 200 and 500 camera.

    I think Woody has the 40 IF version, so maybe he could better enlighten us.

    I want to get the 40 IF because I also use V lenses on my full frame 645 H3D-II/39, and edge sharpness does count there more than with the CFV.

    If you go for a CFE, contact me and I'll sell you my mint one ... then hunt down a IF version for myself.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    marc; yours sounds good
    [email protected]

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    marc; yours sounds good
    [email protected]
    I'll get to you via e-mail as soon as I can locate a 40 IF John.

    BTW, your stuff is really cool. You should submit a few of the best pieces to Hasselblad to be on their web site ... Planet V. They are soliciting input and photos taken with the CFV.

    I have a few things on there also ... and an interview about the CFV under "Word."

    http://www.hasselblad.com/planet-v/w...-williams.aspx

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    thanks marc

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That one is fine. It is the CFE version which is the one I use. The best IQ is the IF version which costs an additional arm ... over and above the arm-and-leg that the CFE one costs

    Using a CFV, I'm not sure how much you gain since the image area is cropped 1.5X on a 200 and 500 camera.

    I think Woody has the 40 IF version, so maybe he could better enlighten us.

    I want to get the 40 IF because I also use V lenses on my full frame 645 H3D-II/39, and edge sharpness does count there more than with the CFV.

    If you go for a CFE, contact me and I'll sell you my mint one ... then hunt down a IF version for myself.
    I just received my 40 IF but have not yet had a chance to use it as I have been on vacation in Pennsylvania and did not take my MF rig. However I will be taking some shots to post. Unfortunately I have only the CFE 16 MPx back so I won't be stressing the resolution limits of the lens. I paid the extra bucks for the IF in anticipation of a higher pixel density back sometime in the future. I haven't shot with the CFE version and don't have access to one so I can't do any comparisons.

    Woody

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Marc,
    Yes it was Jim and his Navy Yard shots that made me repurchased the CFV back again. I am not sure I should be glad with his beautiful works. The images were taken from a different perspective than we normally see and I congratulate Jim. I really like the square format from this sensor and the Zeiss glass renders beautiful skin tone.

    Woody,
    I just want to let you know that I am so happy to see you traded the Leica 2.8/15 for your newly acquired Hasselblad 40 mm CFE IF. Both of these lens are rare items but the CFE IF has so much to give you especially with bigger sensor becoming more available as we move forward to the future. On the other hand for me it was the Leica 2.8/15 that led me to cut the first mirror in 2005 and now it's the regular thing to do.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Hi jlm,

    Yes there are several versions of the Zeiss 40mm.

    Distagon T* 40/4 C
    Distagon T* 40/4 CF
    Distagon T* 40/4 CFE FLE
    Distagon T* 40/4 CFE IF

    The IF has an incredible MTF (very good image quality) but does suffer from high distortion. It's markedly different from its predecessor the FLE in IQ (and in price). I have the IF, so let me know if there are any questions I can answer for you about it.

    Best regards,
    Brad

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    AlaBill
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Brad...

    When you say the 40 CFE IF is "markedly different" would you please describe what you think the difference is? I have my eye on this lens but the price difference between th IF and others is substantial.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Hey Woody, send me your 40 IF and I'll run a bench test of it against my 40 CFE using the 39 meg back ...

    My dealer and I just ran controlled test of my new Rodenstock APO 120 Digital Macro on the Rollei Xact because I thought it wasn't as sharp as it should be. I was right, so it's being replaced. My Rodenstock 90 beat it hands down, which just shouldn't be.

    He said if I had been using a 16 or 22 meg back I may never have noticed.

    Here's the 90mm test shot ... Image 1: full shot; image 2: 130% crop of the focus point which was the "!" mark inside the black circle... which you can hardly see in the full shot.)
    Last edited by fotografz; 23rd July 2008 at 02:27.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaBill View Post
    Brad...

    When you say the 40 CFE IF is "markedly different" would you please describe what you think the difference is? I have my eye on this lens but the price difference between th IF and others is substantial.
    The price difference is substantial--it's a good question.

    Objectively, what's 'markedly different'? The lenses themselves, for starters. The 40/4 CF and 40/4 CFE FLE have the same optical formula, MTF curves, etc. The CFE FLE has better internal baffling, electronic databus capability, new mechanical construction and a third ring to adjust the floating elements. The CFE IF has these improvements over the CF as well, minus the third ring. Instead the IF has a mechanism which automatically drives the floating elements in concert with the focus distance (optimized not just for three particular distances like the FLE, but continually throughout the focusing range). Perhaps most importantly of all, a completely new optical formula:

    Attachment 4169

    Secondly, the MTF curves also tell an interesting story. These MTF charts are measured at infinity and there is quite a difference, particularly with the high frequency (detail rendition) curve. (Speculation: As one focuses closer, one would expect to see the IF distance itself further due to its improved floating element design.) Of note to me is that the IF has significantly flatter MTF curves, but slightly more astigmatism.

    Attachment 4170

    One final objective difference (this time in favor of the FLE) is the distortion. The IF's distortion is huge. There's no other way to say it. It's double that of the previous design. You won't be able to tell if you're shooting the great outdoors, but anything requiring a straight line will be a problem. It *can* be corrected in post, but if you don't/won't/can't do such things to your images, the amount of distortion this lens produces could be a deal-breaker in and of itself.

    Attachment 4171

    On the subjective side, I do think the lens is incredible. Worth the extra cash? It depends on your individual needs, of course. The FLE is no slouch. But just to tempt you a bit, here's what Kornelius J. Mueller (Fleischer), of Carl Zeiss at the time, had to say about the IF version:

    "Within Zeiss, I was the driving head behind coming up with an improved 40 mm lens for the SLR viewfinder (even though I like the Biogon 38 very much). Compared to the previous 40 FLE, I wanted significantly more sharpness at infinity for landscape and "citiyscape" shooters, sharpness on the level of the 50 FLE - at least. I wanted to get rid of the FLE mechanics with its confusing two focus rings. I wanted a single one. And I wanted it to operate smoothly, similar to the great focusing mechanism in the Tele-Superachromat 350, which I consinder the best focusing mechanism anywhere in the photo industry. On top of that I wanted a good offering for professionals who use digital backs and enjoy the Makro-Planar 120 for their commercial photography, but needed something significantly shorter in focal length. All of this has materialised in the new Distagon 4/40 IF - the first super wide angle lens for the SLR which can sucessfully challenge the Biogon 38.

    If you have the opportunity to use it with your best tripod on landscapes with very fine detail at a far horizon, the result will stunn
    [sic] you."

    I use it for exactly this purpose, and have to concur.

    I hope that helps your choice, AlaBill,
    -Brad

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    "Yes it was Jim and his Navy Yard shots that made me repurchased the CFV back again."

    he, he!

  28. #28
    AlaBill
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Brad...

    Thanks a whole bunch for your effort to show the differences. The statement by Kornelius J. Mueller (Fleischer) tells the story.

    Now I'll have to make a pocketbook decision...

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Brad,
    That was a very extensive answer! One note on my part, if you look at the distortion profile you will see that the CFE has a wing pattern which makes it more difficult to correct versus the CFE IF where the distortion is more easier to manage.

    Best Regards,
    son
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Thanks, guys.

    Giving good information that people can use to make good decisions is important--especially these days where everyone can post an opinion somewhere--when searching for something, it can be really confusing and difficult to find good, reliable information.

    I'm glad this was helpful.

    Best regards,
    Brad

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    Marc,
    I am like you love the Hasselblad 200 series system and so far only Sinar back is willing to give me the extra option to use on the 200 series body even if the outcome is only 1/90s max shutter speed which I hope not from what I remember. The Sinar back will also allow other camera systems to be mounted on so the flexibility is what I like. Today I am still using the Hasselblad CFV 16 meg DB for both the 500 and 200 series without any cable sync requirement.

    Regards,
    Son
    I have the answer at long last.

    The 200 series camera can be used with any back sporting a V mount and that provides a sync port. The 200 series camera sync port is connected to the back's "in" sync port (like shown in Son's video).

    However, the 200 series cameras only provide sync speeds to 1/90th. So the camera is relegated to 1/90th or less, and according to Hasselblad even that is "iffy" since the timing requirement is "loose." (whatever that means.)

    The only back that works with full access to all of the 202, 203 or 205 focal plane shutter speeds to 1/2000th is the Hasselblad CFV and CFV-II ... but only after modification of the camera in Sweden. This involves exchange of the main electronic circuitry in order to provide a sync signal via the interface contacts. The byproduct of this is that the automatic communication between the e type film backs is permanately disabled and ISOs have to be manually inputed like when using a A type film back.

    The 200 series cameras CAN be used with C type lenses without modification. In this case, the sync cord is connected from the Zeiss leaf shutter lens sync port to the digital back's "in" sync port, and all shutter speeds to 1/500th can be used. The only advantage of this over a 500 series camera is use of the internal 200 series meter ... so TTL metered work with a waist level finder is then possible.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Marc et al,
    You can also modify the 200 series camera to take the CFV digital back in the US as well. Below is the information:

    Best Regards,
    -Son

    TO: HASSELBLAD USA (1.973.227.7320)
    ATTENTION: CAMERA SERVICE CENTER
    333 NEW ROAD, SUITE No. 5
    PARSIPPANY, NJ 07054

    When you call speak to Mary-Ann or John for assistance. They are among the best folks to help you.
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    Marc et al,
    You can also modify the 200 series camera to take the CFV digital back in the US as well. Below is the information:

    Best Regards,
    -Son

    TO: HASSELBLAD USA (1.973.227.7320)
    ATTENTION: CAMERA SERVICE CENTER
    333 NEW ROAD, SUITE No. 5
    PARSIPPANY, NJ 07054

    When you call speak to Mary-Ann or John for assistance. They are among the best folks to help you.
    I think they just send it on to Sweden Son.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think they just send it on to Sweden Son.
    hi Marc,
    they told me that they can do it for me and the turn around is extremely quick. In the past they were not able to do it and have to send it to Sweden but now they are trained to do the procedure. I am sure you were the first one to have the 200 series camera converted.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Last edited by PSon; 15th May 2008 at 12:05.
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    hi Marc,
    they told me that they can do it for me and the turn around is extremely quick. In the past they were not able to do it and have to send it to Sweden but now they are trained to do the procedure. I am sure you were the first one to have the 200 series camera converted.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Thanks Son, I'll give it a try.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    Marc,
    Yes it was Jim and his Navy Yard shots that made me repurchased the CFV back again. I am not sure I should be glad with his beautiful works. The images were taken from a different perspective than we normally see and I congratulate Jim. I really like the square format from this sensor and the Zeiss glass renders beautiful skin tone.

    Woody,
    I just want to let you know that I am so happy to see you traded the Leica 2.8/15 for your newly acquired Hasselblad 40 mm CFE IF. Both of these lens are rare items but the CFE IF has so much to give you especially with bigger sensor becoming more available as we move forward to the future. On the other hand for me it was the Leica 2.8/15 that led me to cut the first mirror in 2005 and now it's the regular thing to do.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Son

    I remember it well as i was one of the early adopters of your adapters for the Contax to Canon systems. I still have the 100-300 (mint in box), 85 1.2 50 Jahre anniversary, etc. Without your wonderful adapters these lenses would still be coupled to the RTS III which I will probably never sell, Phenomenal body for these spectacular lenses.

    Now that your school days are over and you will now need to get back to real business I expect to see adapters that are absolutely state of the art!

    Best my friend

    Woody

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Son

    I remember it well as i was one of the early adopters of your adapters for the Contax to Canon systems. I still have the 100-300 (mint in box), 85 1.2 50 Jahre anniversary, etc. Without your wonderful adapters these lenses would still be coupled to the RTS III which I will probably never sell, Phenomenal body for these spectacular lenses.

    Now that your school days are over and you will now need to get back to real business I expect to see adapters that are absolutely state of the art!

    Best my friend

    Woody

    hi Woody,
    We all go back a long way for the things you mentioned and today Tom also sent me a link to the Fred Miranda Forums, where he gave me a feedback for buying his Canon 17-35mm lens which we still use the lens to this day. I believe in problem, solution, progress and achievement and having forums like this one always bring great supports. Furthermore, every time we enter into a new system, there are issues needed to iron out and thus making reliable adapters is one of the solutions. Thus, I make adapters to extend the flexibility of the systems of interest, which often used by similar folks like yourself. Recently I tried to get the adapters for my Hasselblad lens to the Mamiya 645 AFD and the Nikon D3 but no reliable adapters were available. Thus, I am making these two types of adapters and in 3 weeks it will be available. These adapters will be very precise with the highest quality and at much lower price than the one you bought recently for your Hasselblad lens to the Nikon D3. I only make 20 adapters for the Mamiya and the Nikon D3.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Last edited by PSon; 15th May 2008 at 18:22.
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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    hi Woody,
    We all go back a long way for the things you mentioned and today Tom also sent me a link to the Fred Miranda Forums, where he gave me a feedback for buying his Canon 17-35mm lens which we still use the lens to this day. I believe in problem, solution, progress and achievement and having forums like this one always bring great supports. Furthermore, every time we enter into a new system, there are issues needed to iron out and thus making reliable adapters is one of the solutions. Thus, I make adapters to extend the flexibility of the systems of interest, which often used by similar folks like yourself. Recently I tried to get the adapters for my Hasselblad lens to the Mamiya 645 AFD and the Nikon D3 but no reliable adapters were available. Thus, I am making these two types of adapters and in 3 weeks it will be available. These adapters will be very precise with the highest quality and at much lower price than the one you bought recently for your Hasselblad lens to the Nikon D3. I only make 20 adapters for the Mamiya and the Nikon D3.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Son

    Sign me up for one of each.

    Woody

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Son,

    Mamiya offers a Hasselblad to M645 AFD adapter. Have you given this a try?

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    marc:
    I'm ready for the 40; almost backed off a pier today getting far enough back with the 110
    jm

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    John, instead of a Zeiss 40IF, I get to buy a new driveway ... Darn real world ... LOL!

    So my 40 will have stay a CFE version for awhile.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    John, instead of a Zeiss 40IF, I get to buy a new driveway ... Darn real world ... LOL!

    So my 40 will have stay a CFE version for awhile.
    Does that mean you'll be putting the old driveway up for sale on the Buy/Sell forum, and do we get to see some of those great product shots of it?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Does that mean you'll be putting the old driveway up for sale on the Buy/Sell forum, and do we get to see some of those great product shots of it?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
    Just a resurface which is less than 1/2 the price of a totally new driveway ... but exactly the price of the 40 IF almost to the penny ...

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    Re: Hasselblad 205FCC + Sinar eMotion

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Just a resurface which is less than 1/2 the price of a totally new driveway ... but exactly the price of the 40 IF almost to the penny ...
    Well at least you'll have a black point reference!! LOL

    Woody

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