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Thread: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Oops, sorry wanted to put a ? mark after coming, but slipped out and can't correct the title

    Okay,

    as I prepare for my Global Journey of Image capture, both in Still and Motion, I'm gathering all the gear that I will take along, so movie cameras I have them coming, and they do stills too.. the Red Epic-X cameras that is

    Now for stills I have the Canon 1D IV with a good amount of "L" Glass, and also gathering quite an impressive amount of Profoto Flash systems, so what is missing is a really BAD A$#@^@^^SS MF camera System.

    As I look at the Leica S2 (already ruled out, sorry Leica) and the Hassy H4D series, and the Phase One/DF combination with the P1+ series DB as well as the Phase One/DF combination with Leaf Aptus II systems, all I keep hearing is:

    "Ketch don't spend 50k on a system now, we are only 3 Months away from PHOTOKINA, and this IS A PHOTOKINA YEAR"

    So what does this mean? Is it something coming in the MF world that should make me wait and or fill stupid about investing in anew system before Photokina?

    What's your take?

    Anything you know or have heard of?

    Besides, don't some dealers take full responsibility of their sales and offer upgrade paths?
    Last edited by KETCH ROSSI; 26th July 2010 at 19:19.

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Are there any rumors or news about SCHNEIDER and RODENSTOCK new digital lenses with bigger image circles than the current series ? ? ?

    Jürgen

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Ketch,

    Phase One is offering protection against something new coming out at Photokina after you've bought a current product now. See this thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17698

    Steve

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Thanks Steve,

    I did read and reply to that thread but I guess I read it too fast, but concern still remains for the Hasselblad, since it also seems that has been taking for ever for the H4D 60 to become available, and imply wanted to make sure I don't spend this kinda of money to be outdated in 3 months, mostly just simply because I really want the best money can buy for my photographic journey and business.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    Thanks Steve,

    I did read and reply to that thread but I guess I read it too fast, but concern still remains for the Hasselblad, since it also seems that has been taking for ever for the H4D 60 to become available, and imply wanted to make sure I don't spend this kinda of money to be outdated in 3 months, mostly just simply because I really want the best money can buy for my photographic journey and business.
    Hey Ketch
    Welcome back Email me if you need anything.
    FYI it has taken Hasselblad ages to get the 60 out and IMO that was due to working with Dalsa chips when they have a long history (and knowledge of) Kodak sensors.
    Nick-T

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    This is obviously coming from a biased source but I think Phase One's Photokina Guarantee is very strong. It's not rocket science. They know Photokina is coming - you know Photokina is coming and they don't want sales to stop. Therefore they are offering this guarantee to say that if you want to invest now you can do so without hesitation. If something new/bigger/better comes out you'll have the option to upgrade to it (if it makes sense) or not.

    A big advantage of this offer is that you'll have a camera immediately (or within a week or two depending on what you're buying and if it's in stock in your country or has to be shipped from DK). Whatever hardware is announced by the major companies at Photokina is VERY unlikely (based on all historical precedence) to be available to ship that day. The P65+ was announced last Photokina to ship by the end of the year (four months after photokina) and they really only started shipping in large quantities two months after that. Items like the LS lenses for the Mamiya system and the H4D-60 took significantly longer to begin shipping.

    Also there are always a large volume of orders the week of Photokina so if you decide to wait and then opt to buy a 65+ the supply of that back is very likely to be back ordered almost immediately.

    So really the Guarantee is pretty strong incentive to buy now. You are protected.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Also Dave Gallagher and I will be at Photokina Live Blogging all the developments of Leaf, Mamiya, Phase One, Cambo, Schneider, Canon, LaCie, Eizo and the other brands we sell. So stay tuned. I really believe we will give the very best coverage available from anyone for the medium format market.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Thanks Nick and Doug,

    definitely don't wish to wait till Photokina to buy, s I will be returning to Italy in November, if not earlier, and start shooting away CityScapes, so I like to have some learning time and play time with the System I buy before end.

    What I'm now looking to do is get the opportunity to demo out all three systems, H4D 60 , Phase One DF/P65+ and Phase ONe DF/Leaf Aptus II 10 so that I can really make an informed decision, since I will be shooting so much, and literally mapping out almost every town and surely every city in Italy for one of the largest Independent Galleris, if not the largest, in which 50% of all proceeds will go to Charity causes, my point, I need to make absolutely sure that I choose the right System for me, and that I choose not only what fils good in my hands, but what really will offer at the end of the day the best Image quality and largest Prints possible with just simply put, the most stunning detail ever seen.

    I don't know any of this systems, even so I played a little few months back with one of the systems Steve at Capture INtegration sold me, and didn't work out, this was the older Mamyia body, and a none + Phase One DB, now things have change very much, with the new body form both manufacturers, SL lenses, etc. so I really look forward to demo each unit and make my purchase.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Let's see here. Hmmmm . . . Looking at my crystal ball, from Hasselblad I see a . . . . H4D-60.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    He he, was't the H4D 60 from last year?

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Well, you just never know. Absolutely no one knew about the H4D/40 until is was suddenly here ... or if they knew they kept it pretty darned quiet.

    Personally, my hope is for more than just another ultra expensive goose in megapixels.

    IMPROVE THE LCD, better ISO performance, faster capture, even better AF, IMPROVE THE LCD, Wi-Fi transport of preview images, some additional speciality lenses to make the systems more versatile, IMPROVE THE LCD.

    There is a boatload of improvements I would wish for before another jump in megabytes.

    Oh, and while you are at it, improve the LCD

    -Marc

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    I heard that Hasselblad might renew the HC 50mm lens and eventually the HC 120 Macro. Well rumor only, but since the HC 50 is on my list i will wait for
    photokina.
    Regards,
    Ralf.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by rmueller View Post
    I heard that Hasselblad might renew the HC 50mm lens and eventually the HC 120 Macro. Well rumor only, but since the HC 50 is on my list i will wait for
    photokina.
    Regards,
    Ralf.
    Where did you "hear" that?

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    Talking Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Where did you "hear" that?
    Maybe he has another magic crystal ball
    Tareq

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, you just never know. Absolutely no one knew about the H4D/40 until is was suddenly here ... or if they knew they kept it pretty darned quiet.

    Personally, my hope is for more than just another ultra expensive goose in megapixels.

    IMPROVE THE LCD, better ISO performance, faster capture, even better AF, IMPROVE THE LCD, Wi-Fi transport of preview images, some additional speciality lenses to make the systems more versatile, IMPROVE THE LCD.

    There is a boatload of improvements I would wish for before another jump in megabytes.

    Oh, and while you are at it, improve the LCD

    -Marc

    Marc,

    I think that you forgot one of the most important futures to have a serious need of upgrade.. THE LCD

    I agree with you on all points, I sure don't need more then 60MP, but I have really hard time liking the LCD displays on the H4D as well as on all P+ DB, while I just love the LCD on the Leaf Aptus II.

    As far s WiFi capture goes I'm absolutely with you, as I come to love this on the use of filming with Red which utilized an H263 compression, and fortunately will have a new state of the art WiFi module for my Epic-X cameras, but as the Leaf allows for viewing on the iPhone and iPad, is that not WiFi, or what is it?


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    Super Duper
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Jeeze, how could I have forgot that Ketch ... improve the LCDs on these $20K + cameras so they are as good as a $800. Canon or Nikon.

    Don't be so sure about the Leaf screen BTW. Bigger doesn't mean better. None of them are worth a tinker's damn in sunlight.

    Maybe there is a technical issue related to speed or something. It is such an obvious issue that it makes me think there is some reason.

    The new H4D/60 has a double res LCD, but recent users haven't commented on it that I know of.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    He he..

    Yeah it was my understanding that the LCD res on the H4D 60 was better, haven't play with it as of yet, while the gays from Phase One are strongly providing for opportiunities to test out the gear, I have not heard from Hasselblad as of yet for the chance to demo the units.

    Even so David has already contacted me via PM, I'm awaiting the opportunity to Demo it along side the Phase One DF / P1 P65+ and Phase One DF / Leaf Aptus II 10.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Jeeze, how could I have forgot that Ketch ... improve the LCDs on these $20K + cameras so they are as good as a $800. Canon or Nikon.

    Don't be so sure about the Leaf screen BTW. Bigger doesn't mean better. None of them are worth a tinker's damn in sunlight.

    Maybe there is a technical issue related to speed or something. It is such an obvious issue that it makes me think there is some reason.

    The new H4D/60 has a double res LCD, but recent users haven't commented on it that I know of.

    -Marc
    Marc,

    Agreed. We had a customer in the store on Monday who brought his Aptus-II 8 and size doesn't necessarily equal clarity (or viewability in sunlight). Side-by-side with the S2, the difference was striking and that is even before we stated zooming and scrolling around images....

    The S2 screen has 460K pixels, same as the "double res" screen on the H4D60. From experience it is perfectly viewable outdoors and the review speed is just about instantaneous, so it can certainly be done on a technical level.

    Check out this short video we produced to go over the image playback features on the S2. Make sure to change the video resolution to 1080p. You can get a feel for both the screen quality and the review/zoom speed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gITS-bJLTtk

    David
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    Marc,

    I think that you forgot one of the most important futures to have a serious need of upgrade.. THE LCD

    I agree with you on all points, I sure don't need more then 60MP, but I have really hard time liking the LCD displays on the H4D as well as on all P+ DB, while I just love the LCD on the Leaf Aptus II.

    As far s WiFi capture goes I'm absolutely with you, as I come to love this on the use of filming with Red which utilized an H263 compression, and fortunately will have a new state of the art WiFi module for my Epic-X cameras, but as the Leaf allows for viewing on the iPhone and iPad, is that not WiFi, or what is it?
    Ketch,

    My understanding of the Leaf functionality with iPhone/iPad is that it only works if the camera is physically tethered to a computer running Leaf Capture. The iPhone/iPad apps picks up images from the host computer that have been transferred to it.

    Yesterday, we tried an EyeFi X2 Pro SD card in one of our S2 bodies and it did in fact transfer images into a hot fold and came up in LR3. Slow as molasses with 75MB DNG files, but it did work. Another option we tried was to write the DNG file to the CF card and a full-res (but compressed) JPG to the SD card. Since the SD card was the EyeFi, it transferred just the JPG to the computer. Still much slower than a hard-wired connection, but it did work faster this way.

    Leica has plans for a WiFi module which will replace the left-side strap lug and use a strap as an antennae for addition signal strength. I hope to get more details on this at Photokina when I speak to the product managers.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Nice video on the S2 functions David, adn thanks for the iPad functionality info as well.

    I love the Leica S2 and love even more the S2 series lenses, just a joule, but this time around I passed on that particular system do to needs and applications, so I kept the 1D IV, and now trying to make a decision amongst the 60MPM big boys, or at the lowest the 50MO range, but just don't really want to go to the 40MP margin, unless off course I was to literally try out the H4D High ISO and fail in love with it, but this will then leave a problem with image size for extra large prints, main reason for which I look to purchase a 60MP range MF system.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    Nice video on the S2 functions David, adn thanks for the iPad functionality info as well.

    I love the Leica S2 and love even more the S2 series lenses, just a joule, but this time around I passed on that particular system do to needs and applications, so I kept the 1D IV, and now trying to make a decision amongst the 60MPM big boys, or at the lowest the 50MO range, but just don't really want to go to the 40MP margin, unless off course I was to literally try out the H4D High ISO and fail in love with it, but this will then leave a problem with image size for extra large prints, main reason for which I look to purchase a 60MP range MF system.
    What size prints are you looking to make? You can make very very nice prints up to 40x60 or 50x70 (inches) from 40MP. And these are "stick your nose in the print" maxes. For further viewing distance, you could certainly go larger.

    Just my 2c.

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    My understanding of the Leaf functionality with iPhone/iPad is that it only works if the camera is physically tethered to a computer running Leaf Capture. The iPhone/iPad apps picks up images from the host computer that have been transferred to it.
    You don't need a camera to use the iPad/ iPhone app but you do need a Mac for this, that processes and sends previews to the iPad.
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    Nice video on the S2 functions David, adn thanks for the iPad functionality info as well.
    Incidentally, we made a whole series of these videos covering each menu quadrant (camera, image, setup, playback), as well as how to set and access custom functions, how to change shooting modes and a 360 deg overview of the physical features of the camera. You can check them out on our YouTube channel at:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/dalephotoanddigital

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Where did you "hear" that?
    HB rep at the H4D-40 introductory tour in Europe.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    I think we can expect an improved screen/form factor from Phase, for all existing backs for sure. Possibly a couple of new sensors, though I'm positive the P65+ one will continue in some way.

    What I would really like is a 21st century body to go with these amazing sensors - I'm tired of using a 1980's body design on a 2010 cutting edge back! It needs a body properly integrated with the back, multi AF, weatherproof, quieter, etc.

    Would also love Phase to respond to the S2 with a ZD2, which put their great sensors in an updated ZD body! perchance to dream...

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Marc,

    Agreed. We had a customer in the store on Monday who brought his Aptus-II 8 and size doesn't necessarily equal clarity (or viewability in sunlight). Side-by-side with the S2, the difference was striking and that is even before we stated zooming and scrolling around images....

    The S2 screen has 460K pixels, same as the "double res" screen on the H4D60. From experience it is perfectly viewable outdoors and the review speed is just about instantaneous, so it can certainly be done on a technical level.

    Check out this short video we produced to go over the image playback features on the S2. Make sure to change the video resolution to 1080p. You can get a feel for both the screen quality and the review/zoom speed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gITS-bJLTtk

    David
    That's true, I remember that the S2 screen was much more accurate than my H cameras ... much more like a 35mm DSLR.
    One could actually use the S2 LCD to gauge exposure to some degree.

    I still don't get why other more established backs haven't done this ... it is such an important part of modern mobile photography ... don't care about it in studio when tethered, but shooting on the fly is a whole other matter.

    -Marc

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That's true, I remember that the S2 screen was much more accurate than my H cameras ... much more like a 35mm DSLR.
    One could actually use the S2 LCD to gauge exposure to some degree.

    I still don't get why other more established backs haven't done this ... it is such an important part of modern mobile photography ... don't care about it in studio when tethered, but shooting on the fly is a whole other matter.

    -Marc
    Fully agree!

    It is a shame what Hasselblad does with their LCDs - even in their latest cameras!

    It is almost unacceptable how Phase does in this respect!!! And PLEASE - do not come back with the passive cooling argument!

    Hope they manage to integrate top DSLR LCDs asap in their products.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    PHOTOKINA will not only show HASSELBLAD gear .

    For some guys this seems to be the only digital MF world .
    But it is definately NOT .

    Jürgen

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    Talking Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    PHOTOKINA will not only show HASSELBLAD gear .

    For some guys this seems to be the only digital MF world .
    But it is definately NOT .

    Jürgen
    Yes, but in this section people are interesting in MF only [or mostly] so they will not give those smaller sensors more interests.
    Tareq

  30. #30
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Ketch,

    Yesterday, we tried an EyeFi X2 Pro SD card in one of our S2 bodies and it did in fact transfer images into a hot fold and came up in LR3.

    David
    David,

    Just a small caution when dealing with WiFi / LR combination. In one of our shops we do Old Time Photos for the tourists. Last summer I picked up a WiFi transmitter for the Canon we were using, transferring back to a hot folder in LR. At first, I thought it worked pretty well, then one day LR crashes in the middle of a shoot and I lose my catalog. Then, a few days later, another crash, another lost catalog. After about the sixth crash (I'm a slow learner) I removed the WiFi transmitter and crushed it under my boot heel.

    I suspect what was happening was LR would attempt to import a file from the hot folder that was only partially transferred by the WiFi.

    You'll want to have an up-to-date catalog backup when experimenting with WiFi transfers to LR.

    Thanks,

    Bob

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    PHOTOKINA will not only show HASSELBLAD gear .

    For some guys this seems to be the only digital MF world .
    But it is definately NOT .

    Jürgen
    That's the truth - there is certainly more to the digital MF world than just Hasselblad

    I'm most interested in Alpa and would hope to see some youtube videos of their booth at Photokina. I also wouldn't mind if Optechs Digital or somebody somewhere did a demonstration video of the XY

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    PHOTOKINA will not only show HASSELBLAD gear .

    For some guys this seems to be the only digital MF world .
    But it is definately NOT .

    Jürgen
    Where did that comment come from Jurgen?

    Who said it was only about Hasselblad? I can't find it anywhere.

    As far as I'm concerned, I'd also be interested in anything new from Schneider or Rodenstock for my Xact-2.

    But if one owns a Phase One or a Hasselblad H then the interest lies there as far as more helpful accessories or improvements.

    -Marc

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Where did that comment come from Jurgen?

    Who said it was only about Hasselblad? I can't find it anywhere.

    As far as I'm concerned, I'd also be interested in anything new from Schneider or Rodenstock for my Xact-2.

    But if one owns a Phase One or a Hasselblad H then the interest lies there as far as more helpful accessories or improvements.

    -Marc
    Marc

    That comment came out of my head and it shall not be understood as a reproach .
    I was thinking of wonderful gear from SINAR , ARCASWISS , ALPA , CAMBO and others , as well as the extremely good lenses from SCHNEIDER and RODENSTOCK .

    I am sure , we can expect new digital lenses with bigger images circles and the resolution for the 6micron pixel sensors .

    Jürgen

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    What size prints are you looking to make? You can make very very nice prints up to 40x60 or 50x70 (inches) from 40MP. And these are "stick your nose in the print" maxes. For further viewing distance, you could certainly go larger.

    Just my 2c.

    David
    This system is to shoot for Art Gallery material were prints will go as big as 120x80 and 240x120 for the panoramic, but this could be stitched.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    This system is to shoot for Art Gallery material were prints will go as big as 120x80 and 240x120 for the panoramic, but this could be stitched.
    inch or cm?

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    inch or cm?
    He he, nice one, since I'm Italian could go both ways so I should have specified, but since I'm in a English Forum, I did mean Inches.

    Some of the Panoramic shots as well as some of the CityScapes shots and the Cathedrals will be Stunningly Huge and full of detail.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    since I'm Italian could go both ways
    that's why I was asking :-)
    okay, 2 meters on the short side is big... you won't necessarily need 60mp but it definitely won't hurt to have more resolution to start with.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    This system is to shoot for Art Gallery material were prints will go as big as 120x80 and 240x120 for the panoramic, but this could be stitched.
    Ketch,

    With these print sizes (120" x 80"), a 60.5 MP image will result in a print resolution of 75 PPI vs. 62.5 PPI for the S2 at 37.5 MP. I'm curious how significant a 12.5 PPI linear resolution advantage will be vs. other ergonomic differences.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Ketch,

    With these print sizes (120" x 80"), a 60.5 MP image will result in a print resolution of 75 PPI vs. 62.5 PPI for the S2 at 37.5 MP. I'm curious how significant a 12.5 PPI linear resolution advantage will be vs. other ergonomic differences.
    David
    Yeaasss David, a panoramic image will flatter the S2 in comparisons like this because of its elongated 3:2 format, combined with the drastic cropping of all other 4:3 formats, even far higher resolution ones like the P65+.

    fact is for that sort of work, he would be best off getting an Alpa Max or Cambo or Arca with a digital back, and large circle lens, thus stitching two (or more) 645's together, and getting incredible quality - close to the ideal 180dpi or higher... a horizontal two stitch would be just the job for panoramas. Probably best of all would a Seitz 6x17, dedicated digital panoramic camera:
    http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/seitz-d3.shtml

    I'm more interested in knowing where you can get a exhibition quality 80x120" print made without a joint seam or two down the middle. All the XL inkjet machines capable of doing that size in one piece are solvent printers onto vinyl or canvas, (quality paper tops out at 64" wide) so very high resolution will be rendered somewhat pointless by their greatly reduced resolution. Makes it all somewhat moot, don't you think?
    Last edited by narikin; 29th July 2010 at 07:10.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    that's why I was asking :-)
    okay, 2 meters on the short side is big... you won't necessarily need 60mp but it definitely won't hurt to have more resolution to start with.
    Yeah it is big,

    the largest prints will be from Stitched pics. BUt this is why I think that the bigger Sensor (no Crop Factor) and the higher MP count can should make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Ketch,

    With these print sizes (120" x 80"), a 60.5 MP image will result in a print resolution of 75 PPI vs. 62.5 PPI for the S2 at 37.5 MP. I'm curious how significant a 12.5 PPI linear resolution advantage will be vs. other ergonomic differences.

    David
    David,

    there is a big difference, believe it or not, from a 60MP to a 37/40 MP sensor, and it will show, obviously the way the files are handle will matter just as much.

    Possibly I have been showed the Leica S2 under the wrong circumstances and have not seen the full potential of this Camera, possibly.

    BUt for me to re-consider going with the S2, I will need tests and reassurance of its capabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Yeaasss David, a panoramic image will flatter the S2 in comparisons like this because of its elongated 3:2 format, combined with the drastic cropping of all other 4:3 formats, even far higher resolution ones like the P65+.

    fact is for that sort of work, he would be best off getting an Alpa Max or Cambo or Arca with a digital back, and large circle lens, thus stitching two (or more) 645's together, and getting incredible quality - close to the ideal 180dpi or higher... a horizontal two stitch would be just the job for panoramas. Probably best of all would a Seitz 6x17, dedicated digital panoramic camera:
    http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/seitz-d3.shtml

    I'm more interested in knowing where you can get a exhibition quality 80x120" print made without a joint seam or two down the middle. All the XL inkjet machines capable of doing that size in one piece are solvent printers onto vinyl or canvas, (quality paper tops out at 64" wide) so very high resolution will be rendered somewhat pointless by their greatly reduced resolution. Makes it all somewhat moot, don't you think?
    Yeah Tech cameras are completely out of the question, I just don't want to have 5 camera systems, 4 is more then in off, he he.

    Paper prints that size and larger are in deed the result of seamless stitching of the two sheets of paper, resolution will go as high as 300dpi and as low as 75dpi for some super large Bill Board like Prints.

    Again most of the super large prints will come from the result of stitched shots, and they will be printed in multiple paper banners.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF? get a good pano head, set the camera vertically and away you go. DX3, 1Ds2, or even just a 5D2. Photoshop will even automate it for you and life is good!

    If, despite what you say, you really DO want another system, then sure, use MF to accomplish the exact same thing. With distant landscape panos, Tech cameras with LLS (Lens Locked Stitch) ability are not required, I'd agree.

    As for the print: I have never seen a 2 part print that I couldn't easily spot the joint on, and believe me I've seen a lot. The best were Richard Misrachs, where the clever mounter had hidden the seam in a particular detail, like a fence or building line. Most others - like Gursky or Struths were glaringly obvious. Personally I'd stick with 60" wide paper till someone comes up with a pigment ink machine at 72/80" and paper to match.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF?
    my reading was that the 120x80 prints will come from single shots...? just the larger ones from stitching...

    As for the print: I have never seen a 2 part print that I couldn't easily spot the joint on, and believe me I've seen a lot. The best were Richard Misrachs, where the clever mounter had hidden the seam in a particular detail, like a fence or building line. Most others - like Gursky or Struths were glaringly obvious.
    but it's only us photographer iditos that look that close at the print. because we are interessted to see how it was made. if you go 3 steps back you won't see the seam. another story are Gursky's two-folded formula 1 prints... in which even the Diasec was stitched. That was infact a bit disappointing as it distracts from the image... you simply can't "walk into" the scene... there is a certain inevitable distance.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    I'm more interested in knowing where you can get a exhibition quality 80x120" print made without a joint seam or two down the middle. All the XL inkjet machines capable of doing that size in one piece are solvent printers onto vinyl or canvas, (quality paper tops out at 64" wide) so very high resolution will be rendered somewhat pointless by their greatly reduced resolution. Makes it all somewhat moot, don't you think?
    Not the OP, but you are so right!
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF? get a good pano head, set the camera vertically and away you go. DX3, 1Ds2, or even just a 5D2. Photoshop will even automate it for you and life is good!

    If, despite what you say, you really DO want another system, then sure, use MF to accomplish the exact same thing. With distant landscape panos, Tech cameras with LLS (Lens Locked Stitch) ability are not required, I'd agree.
    1) Quality is more than resolution
    Meaningful resolution (actual resolved subject detail) is only one aspect of image quality. Measurable differences like DR, color fidelity (especially in shadows), file flexibility, micro contrast, and less measurable differences like lens draw, "look" "3Dness" "tactileness" etc are very different between a FF dSLR and a MF system.

    2) Workflow
    "Photoshop will even automate it for you" is a gross exaggeration. Any workflow involving stitching is a significantly tedious one compared to single-frame workflows especially as the frame count rises. If you don't mind sitting in front of a computer (I'm not making fun here - it varies from one person to the next - I spend a lot of time in front of computers and don't mind as much as a lot of more traditional shooters) then stitching is pretty strait forward and has gotten a LOT easier (and better) in the last several years with newer generations of software. But it is still nowhere near as easy as single frame shooting or "stitching"/blending on a tech camera.

    3) Don't underestimate to resolution of high-end backs
    Although dSLRs are coming up in resolution they are still pretty low compared to higher end digital backs and with the AA filter and often glass which is not as sharp per pixel as a good MF lens, dSLRs resolve less detail per pixel than digital backs. Also the overlap you need for stitching is 15-20% of the frame width and height. Finally any stitching by rotation requires you crop into the final composite frame (for long lens stitching it's a small crop, for wide angles it can be a very large crop). Accordingly a 22mp dSLR will need to shoot can take anywhere between 4 and 8 frames to match the final subject detail of a single frame from a P65+, and many many frames to match a simple 2-frame P65+ stitch. Even then you're looking at a higher-resolution version of the dSLR file quality.

    4) Annoyances of stitching
    In addition shooting several or many frames poses it's own problems of changing light, subject motion (e.g. blowing branches on a group of willow trees, herds of animals, clouds etc). These problems are not insurmountable, but can often be very annoying, especially for stitching more than 2 or 3 frames.

    ----

    You can twist all these numbers a little either direction (I can only base my numbers off my own testing and use) but it's easy to underestimate the post-processing work of a workflow centered around multi-frame dSLR stitching if your goal is very high quality large prints. It's also a less tactile and direct way of interacting with your camera when shooting - this may not bother some people, but I want my actual experience shooting in the field to be fun and enjoyable, not just "productive"; single-frame and LLS-stitching feel to me (very subjective) more fun and multi-frame dSLR stitching feels like work to me.

    Almost all of my shooting at the getDPI workshops I've attended have been on tech cameras with 2, 3, or 4 frame lens-locked stitching. There just isn't anything else like it. Amazing quality - tactile and enjoyable shooting experience (AFTER the first several hours getting familiar with the camera and shooting process - the first several hours are a real PITA).
    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...on-panoramics/
    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...ical-stitches/

    Just my two (biased but as honest as I know how) cents.

    We very often have the feedback from new MF shooters that "this beats the @^*# out of stitching".

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 29th July 2010 at 08:52.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    My current feeling is that none of the Medium Format companies is strong enough to give us a real surprise with either cameras or digital backs.
    It is all a slow, slow and expensive, expensive way up.
    That is why I hope Sony or any other company that is good and powerful enough for a break up will do something crazy, like picking up the Contax cameras, supply it with an image stabilised digital back, let Zeiss design some great PC lenses.
    All that what we have already in 135. Is it really that difficult and costly?

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    This system is to shoot for Art Gallery material were prints will go as big as 120x80 and 240x120 for the panoramic, but this could be stitched.
    Jesus wept, these aren't fine art prints, they're wallpaper. What is this obsession in the USA with BIG? Big country, big autos, big wimmen, big prints.

    Never mind the quality, feel the width.

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF? get a good pano head, set the camera vertically and away you go. DX3, 1Ds2, or even just a 5D2. Photoshop will even automate it for you and life is good!

    If, despite what you say, you really DO want another system, then sure, use MF to accomplish the exact same thing. With distant landscape panos, Tech cameras with LLS (Lens Locked Stitch) ability are not required, I'd agree.

    As for the print: I have never seen a 2 part print that I couldn't easily spot the joint on, and believe me I've seen a lot. The best were Richard Misrachs, where the clever mounter had hidden the seam in a particular detail, like a fence or building line. Most others - like Gursky or Struths were glaringly obvious. Personally I'd stick with 60" wide paper till someone comes up with a pigment ink machine at 72/80" and paper to match.
    Well I think Doug nail it, but yes, after shooting for over twenty years with 35mm, I know now that my 1D IV will be sued only for certain needs, but rarely for Print work of any size above 13x19.

    Detail coming form MF files, is just so far away form anything I ever got out of 35mm is not even worth comparing.

    As far as stitching, I know is very tedious work, and the larger the files the less stitching I'll have to do.

    Actually placing together multiple Prints, will result with a very thin, I'll say super thin line, which in turn can be hand painted, retouched to further eliminate its visibility, but one you are several feet away., as you have to be when looking at such large prints, That is if you want to see it all, you will not see the seems, unless you leave a NOse print on the glass

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Jesus wept, these aren't fine art prints, they're wallpaper. What is this obsession in the USA with BIG? Big country, big autos, big wimmen, big prints.

    Never mind the quality, feel the width.
    Ha ha, actually this will be in Italy, the reason for this sizes is to present something never done before, as far as bringing to life some of the Breath taking sceneries of my Country with the outmost Detail and dramatic color representation.

    Will it be a success, I don't know, but I'm counting on

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Jesus wept, these aren't fine art prints, they're wallpaper. What is this obsession in the USA with BIG? Big country, big autos, big wimmen, big prints.

    Never mind the quality, feel the width.
    It is because freedom in this country (the US) translates to greatness, which is lately often confused with great size.
    Just my guess.
    Shakespeare would have said it better, no doubt!

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    Re: *** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Karma View Post
    That is why I hope Sony or any other company that is good and powerful enough for a break up will do something crazy, like picking up the Contax cameras, supply it with an image stabilised digital back, let Zeiss design some great PC lenses.
    All that what we have already in 135. Is it really that difficult and costly?
    Yes.

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