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Thread: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

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    Member markowich's Avatar
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    S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    we took the S2 with the three lenses to israel and did already a full day of shooting with it. yesterday we decided to leave the 70mm lens in the hotel....it was 34 centigrades in jerusalem.
    we headed straight into the old city, which is not a generic MF territory: dark alleys, street photography type shooting, crowds of people etc. the S2 shooting experience was nevertheless reasonably good but certainly we would have been better off with the D3x (horses for courses). focus tracking a moving subject is close to impossible but if you happen to nail focus the result is really nice...see the attached pic and the 100% crop (courtesy andrea baczynski). 320iso is quite usable (some detail lost but still enough there), iso 640 is -for me- emergency only.
    one minor issue: the camera strap provided by leica really rubs and hurts on the skin in hot weather. it is made of cheap material apparently.
    the dilemma for travel photography is that if you take the S gear on a trip you will not have enogh room left to take the D3x/s gear too...
    today off to the west bank with the S2...
    all the gest, peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Looks like M9 territory to me.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Thanks for sharing, Peter. Did you try to get the focus on this man's eye? If so, do you think the D3x would have done better with focus tracking, faster AF, smaller sensor and all?
    Enjoy your trip and the S2.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by peterv View Post
    Thanks for sharing, Peter. Did you try to get the focus on this man's eye? If so, do you think the D3x would have done better with focus tracking, faster AF, smaller sensor and all?
    Enjoy your trip and the S2.
    well, he was not really collaborating too well----))) nevertheless i am happy with this shot.
    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Looks like M9 territory to me.

    -Marc
    yes, i was actually using the M9. also today, but the heat was not kind with it. 5 shots and battery out.....5 shots and battery out.....
    the S2 heated up a lot today but only froze once and we took about 500 shots with it.
    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    nevertheless i am happy with this shot.
    peter
    I can imagine that.
    It conveys some kind of serenity and the subtle colours in the background OOF area are beautiful.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    When you get results like you just posted, it makes it worth shooting MF and risking a lower percentage of keepers.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    dear friends,
    thanks for your comments. attached you find a shot taken with the S2/180mm combo and a 100% crop. the exposure is somewhat off, but i just want to show the resolving power of the combo. the shot was taken handheld, f8, 1/350s. probably even more res is obtained using a tripod. for comparism i am also attaching s shot of the same motif, taken with the M9/90mmCron at the same time taken from the same spot. clearly the focal lengths do not correspond but i think it tells a story.
    btw, what you see is the israeli built wall separating jerusalem from bethlehem. a sad sight.
    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Forget the cameras Peter...how are you enjoying the city? Have you done the night walk on the city Walls yet?
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    yair,
    the city is at the same time the most beautiful and the saddest city in the world. but i hope that its future and the future of the whole region will be bright.
    we are enjoying it very much......wonderful people on both sides of the fence.
    will do the night walk tomorrow.
    all the best, peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    the holocaust memorial, S2, 70mm, f3.4, 1/500s, iso 320. some mild green fringing, easily eliminated in LR3.
    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    the holocaust memorial, S2, 70mm, f3.4, 1/500s, iso 320. some mild green fringing, easily eliminated in LR3.
    peter
    Nice. Subtile rendering of light.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Peter,

    wonderful images and thanks for sharing!

    Now with all your experiences WRT S2 and Nikon (D3X) -

    1) would you say that you could have done all of these shoots satisfyingly also with the Nikon?

    2) would the Nikon not have been more flexible (allow more successful shoots) because of the more flexible zooms etc?

    Thanks

    Peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    the holocaust memorial, S2, 70mm, f3.4, 1/500s, iso 320. some mild green fringing, easily eliminated in LR3.
    peter
    Very nice.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    He's pretty much already stated that in the original post. I think the point of this post to show what can be done if needed, not that the S2 is a better option than A or B? Certainly, people use Phase or H cameras for this type of work too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Peter,

    wonderful images and thanks for sharing!

    Now with all your experiences WRT S2 and Nikon (D3X) -

    1) would you say that you could have done all of these shoots satisfyingly also with the Nikon?

    2) would the Nikon not have been more flexible (allow more successful shoots) because of the more flexible zooms etc?

    Thanks

    Peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Peter,

    wonderful images and thanks for sharing!

    Now with all your experiences WRT S2 and Nikon (D3X) -

    1) would you say that you could have done all of these shoots satisfyingly also with the Nikon?

    2) would the Nikon not have been more flexible (allow more successful shoots) because of the more flexible zooms etc?

    Thanks

    Peter
    peter,
    very difficult questions....but obviously the right ones. with andrea we talked about it at length over dinner. she is definitly a photographic hardliner, typically arguing that ALPA/P65+ would have gotten her the best shot which she could blow up to 2m length. so for her the keeper rate is not an issue, it is the ONE shot...anyway, she is not terribly impressed with the S2 (although in my humble view her production on this trip is very good). i think the issue is that it is easy to get fooled into believing that you are holding a nikon but the S2 AF is like H3D and dynamic range is certainly less than the D3x. all in all, i think that if you want consistently great shots, have moving targets, changing light and do not want to print larger than 1m lenght than the D3x is a no brainer. if you are after the ONE shot then MF is a contender and the S2 is certainly top in that spectrum. here i am talking about travel photography only, studio, architecture etc are different ball parks.
    seems that it will be D3x for andrea next month on our trip to india and, of course, M9 for the less discerning family member---)))
    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    peter,
    very difficult questions....but obviously the right ones. with andrea we talked about it at length over dinner. she is definitly a photographic hardliner, typically arguing that ALPA/P65+ would have gotten her the best shot which she could blow up to 2m length. so for her the keeper rate is not an issue, it is the ONE shot...anyway, she is not terribly impressed with the S2 (although in my humble view her production on this trip is very good). i think the issue is that it is easy to get fooled into believing that you are holding a nikon but the S2 AF is like H3D and dynamic range is certainly less than the D3x. all in all, i think that if you want consistently great shots, have moving targets, changing light and do not want to print larger than 1m lenght than the D3x is a no brainer. if you are after the ONE shot then MF is a contender and the S2 is certainly top in that spectrum. here i am talking about travel photography only, studio, architecture etc are different ball parks.
    seems that it will be D3x for andrea next month on our trip to india and, of course, M9 for the less discerning family member---)))
    peter
    Peter,

    thanks for your opinion! Interesting to see anyway how the S System really delivers in the field. Think it is not bad.

    Also interesting will be, how close the next generation high end DSLRs will come to the S2 in terms of IQ and if the difference will almost disappear. If one takes price of equipment into account then this is already pretty obvious today - at least for me.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    He's pretty much already stated that in the original post. I think the point of this post to show what can be done if needed, not that the S2 is a better option than A or B? Certainly, people use Phase or H cameras for this type of work too.
    For me it is rather not the question how close the S2 is to top models of Phase and Hasselblad - because in my opinion IQ wise the S System has to improve to reach this quality (SW included of course), but more how close high end DSLRs are coming to the S2.

    Interesting to see that Peter mentions a D3X already is same level if not printing larger than 1m. Now we can discuss about 0.8m or 1.2m, matter of fact is that I could upres successfully to almost double the size in PS without anybody noticing - maybe only in a direct comparison. So I expect the next generation of DSLRs - like a D4X - to be already same level as the S2 IQ wise, but given the huge sortiment of Nikkor lenses better AF and IS to just be the better solution.

    CLear is also that if you really want THE SHOT, then nothing will top a tech cam and dedicated lenses (Schneider, Rodenstock) in combination with a high res digital back.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    "...and dynamic range is certainly less than the D3x."

    Really?

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    CLear is also that if you really want THE SHOT, then nothing will top a tech cam and dedicated lenses (Schneider, Rodenstock) in combination with a high res digital back.
    True, unless you are working in the field and focusing your tech camera by guesstimate. Then, I would rather have a Phase or Hassy camera with accurate autofocus.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    All these systems can deliver - it always boils down to workflow preferences and idiosyncratic personal preference. Leica has always made stuff that looks good and feels good in the hand - and I for one have always been prepared to pay for this.

    However @ 40 megapixels we arent talking easy handholdability or with that fat glass fast autofocus - so yes maybe it is easier to use than the typical MF camera in snapshot mode - but you dont need 40 megapixels for snapshots.

    At the right price point though - I'd be happy to be in an S2 instead of a MF camera and lens system - because neither replace a tech camera. The problem for me is that the S2 is no where near the price point which makes its positives a compelling value proposition.

    If I had one - I am sure I'd use it MORE than my current systems for general walk around stuff - because it is easier to hold and use. But I have other systems - and the price point for an S2 doesnt make me want to switch ANY of my systems for one - thats the rub.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "...and dynamic range is certainly less than the D3x."

    Really?
    Actually this comment does not surprise me. Going back to our review of the s2 we found the S2 clipped the highlights and shadows much sooner than the P 40 plus. Now we did not take it any further in tests on DR but that is what we noticed in c1 and LR. Obviously you can squeeze more out of both system through good raw processing as well. Now the D3x I never tested but we all have read about it in forums how good it is.anyway not scientific on our part but it was what we noticed and we where very accurate on the shooting side of the test.
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually this comment does not surprise me. Going back to our review of the s2 we found the S2 clipped the highlights and shadows much sooner than the P 40 plus. Now we did not take it any further in tests on DR but that is what we noticed in c1 and LR. Obviously you can squeeze more out of both system through good raw processing as well. Now the D3x I never tested but we all have read about it in forums how good it is.anyway not scientific on our part but it was what we noticed and we where very accurate on the shooting side of the test.
    Well, it surprises me for sure, and doesn't match up at all with the tests I did using the S2 in South Florida's harsh noon lighting ... we shot the S2 side-by-side against a Canon 1DsMKIII and L lenses, and the S2 held DR much better than the Canon did. In fact, my buddy with the Canon has since joined the ranks of MFD shooters because of that experience. That is also not a scientific test, just an observation.

    I know the Nikon D3X very well having used it heavily for wedding photography with the newer nano coated lenses. It's a nice camera, but no S2 in terms of IQ or DR. The D3X was also the hardest camera I've ever used in terms of post processing labor. This is one of the reasons I switched to Sony, which is one of the easiest cameras to achieve optimal results in post.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, it surprises me for sure, and doesn't match up at all with the tests I did using the S2 in South Florida's harsh noon lighting ... we shot the S2 side-by-side against a Canon 1DsMKIII and L lenses, and the S2 held DR much better than the Canon did. In fact, my buddy with the Canon has since joined the ranks of MFD shooters because of that experience. That is also not a scientific test, just an observation.

    I know the Nikon D3X very well having used it heavily for wedding photography with the newer nano coated lenses. It's a nice camera, but no S2 in terms of IQ or DR. The D3X was also the hardest camera I've ever used in terms of post processing labor. This is one of the reasons I switched to Sony, which is one of the easiest cameras to achieve optimal results in post.

    -Marc
    You keep saying that Marc (the last part), but there are some people with an opposite experience -not shooting weddings though.
    Which SW did you use with the D3X?

    As said prior, i for one was extremely surprised to see that C1, which was best with D700/D3 files, did not yield satisfying output for the D3X raws in most cases... and that both NX2 and the recent LR/ACR updates sometimes were a better choice.

    That said, DR performance on the D3X is certainly extremely good.
    Just shy of the latest MFDB bodies. Quite easier to use, though.



    .
    Last edited by Corlan F.; 3rd August 2010 at 00:03.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    For me it is rather not the question how close the S2 is to top models of Phase and Hasselblad - because in my opinion IQ wise the S System has to improve to reach this quality (SW included of course), but more how close high end DSLRs are coming to the S2.

    Interesting to see that Peter mentions a D3X already is same level if not printing larger than 1m. Now we can discuss about 0.8m or 1.2m, matter of fact is that I could upres successfully to almost double the size in PS without anybody noticing - maybe only in a direct comparison. So I expect the next generation of DSLRs - like a D4X - to be already same level as the S2 IQ wise, but given the huge sortiment of Nikkor lenses better AF and IS to just be the better solution.

    CLear is also that if you really want THE SHOT, then nothing will top a tech cam and dedicated lenses (Schneider, Rodenstock) in combination with a high res digital back.
    Just curious, since when is it just about megapixels? The S2 sensor is much larger than a 35mm DSLR can ever be (and still remain a 35mm DSLR).

    I've used all current high meg 35mm DSLRs extensively: Canon 1DsMKIII, Nikon D3X, Sony A900, all with the best glass they offer ... no contest ... IQ from my old H3D-II/31 beat them all without working up a sweat ... let alone a more current 40 meg MFD rig. The difference between 24 meg and 31 meg would be negligible if confined to a 35mm frame ... factor in the difference in MFD sensor size and it is a whole other matter.

    For sure the axiom "horses for courses" remains true ... certain applications call for a huge range of lenses, high ISOs, faster AF, and in some cases IS/VR/SSS stabilization.

    However, that other old axiom also holds true: "Size matters".

    I always think in terms of a flip side to upres'ing using a fractal based program ... with large sensor cameras one can crop a full res file extensively with far less consequences than a 35mm DSLR. In my work this happens far more frequently than upres'ing. When it does come to upsizing I'd much rather be working with 40meg from a larger sensor than 30 or 35 meg from a smaller sensor (which deosn't even exist yet).

    So, I seriously doubt any 35mm DSLR will overcome sensor size anytime soon. The question is ... do you need it? In my case, I prefer it and given the choice of weapons (setting aside cost), I'd choose the S2 over any 35mm DSLR now or in the near future ... and do it in a NY heart beat

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    we took the S2 with the three lenses to israel and did already a full day of shooting with it. yesterday we decided to leave the 70mm lens in the hotel....it was 34 centigrades in jerusalem.
    we headed straight into the old city, which is not a generic MF territory: dark alleys, street photography type shooting, crowds of people etc. the S2 shooting experience was nevertheless reasonably good but certainly we would have been better off with the D3x (horses for courses). focus tracking a moving subject is close to impossible but if you happen to nail focus the result is really nice...see the attached pic and the 100% crop (courtesy andrea baczynski). 320iso is quite usable (some detail lost but still enough there), iso 640 is -for me- emergency only.
    one minor issue: the camera strap provided by leica really rubs and hurts on the skin in hot weather. it is made of cheap material apparently.
    the dilemma for travel photography is that if you take the S gear on a trip you will not have enogh room left to take the D3x/s gear too...
    today off to the west bank with the S2...
    all the gest, peter
    It was actually 36 degrees that day, I'm also in Jerusalem at the moment and enjoying having AC!

    Have to be honest, that 100% crop looks less sharp than my 5D can do with a prime..
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 3rd August 2010 at 00:20.
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, it surprises me for sure, and doesn't match up at all with the tests I did using the S2 in South Florida's harsh noon lighting ... we shot the S2 side-by-side against a Canon 1DsMKIII and L lenses, and the S2 held DR much better than the Canon did.
    Marc,

    My .02: The Canon was not in the same league as the S2 DR-wise, but as Guy said, we found the S2 definitely clipped highlights and shadows where the P40+ and P65+ did not -- at the time of our test, we guestimated about 1/4 stop on each end. We had several frames taken in early morning back-light of an old church. On the histos, we could see a bit of remaining head and foot room on the Phase files when the S2 clipped the tips at both ends.

    The D3X is a different story. It has some proprietary internal highlight compression (and probably some shadow expansion as well) that seems to work quite well, giving it a total output DR similar to the MFDB's -- similar, but not identical in the way it appears. It's hard to put my finger on to explain, but if you can get a bright light D3X raw to look at, you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Maybe David Kipper can send you one -- David?

    PS: As I think you know, lack of DR is also one of the main reasons I sold my Canons.
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Marc,

    My .02: The Canon was not in the same league as the S2 DR-wise, but as Guy said, we found the S2 definitely clipped highlights and shadows where the P40+ and P65+ did not -- at the time of our test, we guestimated about 1/3 stop on each end. We had several frames taken in early morning back-light of an old church. On the histos, we could see a bit of remaining head and foot room on the Phase files when the S2 clipped the tips at both ends.

    The D3X is a different story. It has some proprietary internal highlight compression (and probably some shadow expansion as well) that seems to work quite well, giving it a total output DR similar to the MFDB's -- similar, but not identical in the way it appears. It's hard to put my finger on to explain, but if you can get a bright light D3X raw to look at, you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Maybe David Kipper can send you one -- David?

    PS: As I think you know, lack of DR is also one of the main reasons I sold my Canons.
    Thanks Jack, I don't need a "bright light" D3X RAW shot ... I have 5,000+ of them on my wedding HD.

    I agree regarding the Canon 1DsMKIII DR verse the Nikon D3X ... also one of the reasons I moved away from Canon.

    As I said, the D3X is a nice camera, but when faced with 500 shots featuring a pure white dress with intricate white bead work or subtile embroidery , and a back tux of various materials, I didn't like the highlight compression (and shadow expansion?) decisions being made by the camera ... in far to many cases it flattened the contrast to much which led to more post work than I was willing to spend.

    In fact, because of the laborious post experience I came to hate the Nikon no matter what settings I tried or which post program I used (if I had to use the snail like work-flow of NX I'd still be processing weddings from last year The Sony may or may not use internal compression, but the files right out of the camera beat the crap out of the D3X for my application with zero DR issues ... so I dumped the Nikon and never looked back. Less expensive too.

    So, I'll take your word for it that the S2 DR isn't what it should be ... and that the P40+ and P65+ are better. I know for a fact that the H4D/40 DR is better than any 35mm DSLR I've ever used ... including the D3X and Sony.

    I'll leave it to someone else to discuss the S2, but my limited use delivered nice results in bright light ... I just personally don't like the over-all feel of the files in challenging light, especially with the speed light ... and mostly that was because you can't get the ISO up in concert with dragging the shutter to open up backgrounds ... which I can easily do with the H4D/40 using its clean ISO 800.

    I just shot 75% of a wedding available light with the H4D/40 ... yet another outdoor wedding ceremony at 12:30PM in the open sun and hardly a freaking cloud in the sky. Every single shot is fine ... amazing DR. No fill flash allowed, yet no blown dress, plenty of shadow detail, perfect skin tones. 300 shots in 4.5 hours all in challenging lighting. Post is a breeze.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The Sony may or may not use internal compression, but the files right out of the camera beat the crap out of the D3X for my application with zero DR issues ... so I dumped the Nikon and never looked back. Less expensive too.
    Interesting bold statement.

    It's funny that you keep repeating that endlessly when you actualy dismiss the proprietary sw for "out of the camera".

    Another funny thing: when i was on the edge for a new system last year, reading thoroughly various reviews and in particular your assesment (..."one and only"...) i initially opted for the Sony route. Less expensive for sure, and a unique 135mm prime. Then i looked at a hundred or so of your photos from both cameras, selected my fav on a technical basis, then only looked at the exifs. 8 out of 10 where with the D3X. Then i tested both cameras. And kept the Nikon and never looked back. So, you played an important part in my decision (but again, i don't shoot weddings).

    That said if it'd make any sense business wise i'd love to get a H4D. Unfortunately it doesn't -not in the current economic state.

    Guess that one will become the next "one and only" in very little time?



    Getting back to the S2 DR performance, is it possible that this could evolve with FW updates and maybe profiles in RAW converters?

    It's still a young camera... and not unilike the A900, as of today not really a system per se.

  30. #30
    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    It was actually 36 degrees that day, I'm also in Jerusalem at the moment and enjoying having AC!

    Have to be honest, that 100% crop looks less sharp than my 5D can do with a prime..
    ben,
    this issue could be the minimal depth of field of MF. i guarntee you, the S2 DNG sharpness beats the RAW D3x sharpness ...at the very precise point of focus.

    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks Jack, I don't need a "bright light" D3X RAW shot ... I have 5,000+ of them on my wedding HD.

    I agree regarding the Canon 1DsMKIII DR verse the Nikon D3X ... also one of the reasons I moved away from Canon.

    As I said, the D3X is a nice camera, but when faced with 500 shots featuring a pure white dress with intricate white bead work or subtile embroidery , and a back tux of various materials, I didn't like the highlight compression (and shadow expansion?) decisions being made by the camera ... in far to many cases it flattened the contrast to much which led to more post work than I was willing to spend.

    In fact, because of the laborious post experience I came to hate the Nikon no matter what settings I tried or which post program I used (if I had to use the snail like work-flow of NX I'd still be processing weddings from last year The Sony may or may not use internal compression, but the files right out of the camera beat the crap out of the D3X for my application with zero DR issues ... so I dumped the Nikon and never looked back. Less expensive too.

    So, I'll take your word for it that the S2 DR isn't what it should be ... and that the P40+ and P65+ are better. I know for a fact that the H4D/40 DR is better than any 35mm DSLR I've ever used ... including the D3X and Sony.

    I'll leave it to someone else to discuss the S2, but my limited use delivered nice results in bright light ... I just personally don't like the over-all feel of the files in challenging light, especially with the speed light ... and mostly that was because you can't get the ISO up in concert with dragging the shutter to open up backgrounds ... which I can easily do with the H4D/40 using its clean ISO 800.

    I just shot 75% of a wedding available light with the H4D/40 ... yet another outdoor wedding ceremony at 12:30PM in the open sun and hardly a freaking cloud in the sky. Every single shot is fine ... amazing DR. No fill flash allowed, yet no blown dress, plenty of shadow detail, perfect skin tones. 300 shots in 4.5 hours all in challenging lighting. Post is a breeze.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    -Marc
    marc,
    i stand by my judgement. D3x DR is at least 1/2 stop better than S2. and P65+ DR slightly beats D3x DR.
    my only issue with D3x files is NC2, which is a pain. other than that it gives you very 'neutral' files and laeves PP decisions up to you. if i was a wedding photographer i would hate it but it is great for artists.
    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Corlan F. View Post
    Interesting bold statement.

    It's funny that you keep repeating that endlessly when you actualy dismiss the proprietary sw for "out of the camera".

    Another funny thing: when i was on the edge for a new system last year, reading thoroughly various reviews and in particular your assesment (..."one and only"...) i initially opted for the Sony route. Less expensive for sure, and a unique 135mm prime. Then i looked at a hundred or so of your photos from both cameras, selected my fav on a technical basis, then only looked at the exifs. 8 out of 10 where with the D3X. Then i tested both cameras. And kept the Nikon and never looked back. So, you played an important part in my decision (but again, i don't shoot weddings).

    That said if it'd make any sense business wise i'd love to get a H4D. Unfortunately it doesn't -not in the current economic state.

    Guess that one will become the next "one and only" in very little time?



    Getting back to the S2 DR performance, is it possible that this could evolve with FW updates and maybe profiles in RAW converters?

    It's still a young camera... and not unilike the A900, as of today not really a system per se.
    Well, in the words of Joan Crawford ... "this ain't my first Rodeo."

    Proprietary Nikon software in this case is turtle slow for this application ... an application that I dump wedding images from a 35mm DSLR (now Sony), M9, my assistant's Canon 5D, and at times from the H camera, into one folder organized by time shot. "Horses for courses" is practiced at every wedding shoot.

    Lightroom does the job faster for this application with very little compromises ... and using that, the Sony files take less post work than either the Canon or Nikon. This became crystal clear when shooting both the A900 and D3X at the same weddings, in the same light, while I was thinking of making the transition. A whole season of weddings that way: 20,000+ images. You do catch on to trends while crunching through 20,000+ images at 1,000 a crack

    So yeah, I'll keep saying that because that is what I found ... for me. I will say that the Nikon wasn't bad for B&W conversions which I have said before, even in the Sony forum here.

    Where pray tell did you gain access to 100 of my photos? Even if you did, when was that? At any given time, a portfolio will reflect what I'm using then. In fact, a majority of my current portfolio and website stuff is done with a Hasselblad and Leica with some B&Ws from the Nikon and color from Sony.

    Were it not for weddings I wouldn't even own a 35mm DSLR. For what I do use one for I don't need all the ancillary systems stuff ... I never shoot macro with a 35 mm, never do TS work with a 35mm, never use one in the studio, rarely use super-telephoto (and would rent one if I did).

    How does this relate to the S2 subject? I had dearly hoped it would replace the 35mm DSLR ... and with more improvements, and a few more lenses, it still might.

    -Marc

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks Jack, I don't need a "bright light" D3X RAW shot ... I have 5,000+ of them on my wedding HD.
    DOH!

    And,

    but when faced with 500 shots featuring a pure white dress with intricate white bead work or subtile embroidery , and a back tux of various materials, I didn't like the highlight compression (and shadow expansion?) decisions being made by the camera ... in far to many cases it flattened the contrast to much which led to more post work than I was willing to spend.
    Exactly my experience. It's where I hope the S2 comes to the forefront.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  34. #34
    Subscriber Member Corlan F.'s Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Where pray tell did you gain access to 100 of my photos? Even if you did, when was that? At any given time, a portfolio will reflect what I'm using then. In fact, a majority of my current portfolio and website stuff is done with a Hasselblad and Leica with some B&Ws from the Nikon and color from Sony.
    my answer would be OT, so -> PM


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Were it not for weddings I wouldn't even own a 35mm DSLR. For what I do use one for I don't need all the ancillary systems stuff ... I never shoot macro with a 35 mm, never do TS work with a 35mm, never use one in the studio, rarely use super-telephoto (and would rent one if I did).
    Yeah well, so would i. But for that you really need top MFDB gear (say, PO 40+ / H4D40 or better plus some of the last lenses)... not exactly cheap.

  35. #35
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Corlan F. View Post
    Interesting bold statement.

    It's funny that you keep repeating that endlessly when you actualy dismiss the proprietary sw for "out of the camera".

    Another funny thing: when i was on the edge for a new system last year, reading thoroughly various reviews and in particular your assesment (..."one and only"...) i initially opted for the Sony route. Less expensive for sure, and a unique 135mm prime. Then i looked at a hundred or so of your photos from both cameras, selected my fav on a technical basis, then only looked at the exifs. 8 out of 10 where with the D3X. Then i tested both cameras. And kept the Nikon and never looked back. So, you played an important part in my decision (but again, i don't shoot weddings).

    That said if it'd make any sense business wise i'd love to get a H4D. Unfortunately it doesn't -not in the current economic state.

    Guess that one will become the next "one and only" in very little time?



    Getting back to the S2 DR performance, is it possible that this could evolve with FW updates and maybe profiles in RAW converters?

    It's still a young camera... and not unilike the A900, as of today not really a system per se.
    I made similar experiences with the A900. Switched over from Nikon (D3) to the A900 mainly because of high resolution and attractive price. I was never really happy with what came out of the camera, needed a lot of post processing to come close to the Nikon D3 standards, of course resolution was double.

    Also the very much favored Zeiss lenses (which are actually made by Sony under Zeiss control - whatever that means) never fascinated me. They feel like cheap plastic and the optical qualities are for sure not better than their Nikon counterparts with Nano coating.

    So finally nothing could hold me in the Sony camp (I was the bad guy then in the Sony threads of course ) and I switched back to Nikon some 5 months ago and am a very happy Nikon user again - although only with the D700 because for higher res I use my H3D39.

    I already mentioned on a different thread that tastes are obviously VERY different and that I do not back at all the experiences and positives which Marc made with the A900. Not a bad camera, not a bad system, but IMHO not even close to Nikon.

    Will the S2 improve? Good question, I think maybe, but it will take time and as long Leica fools around with non dedicated post processing SW success is pretty questionable. Also stated very often, had they gone with Phase One (C1 Pro) from the beginning for their S System, things would look TOTALLY different. Many of us raised that concern when it became obvious that they were no longer going with Phase for post processing. Actually this was a knock out criterium during my MF evaluation time for the S System. Well maybe in some years they will reach the same level as Phase or Hasselblad have today because of post processing, but then these 2 will be again further ahead. So actually they will never ever become top IMHO.
    Last edited by ptomsu; 3rd August 2010 at 07:25.

  36. #36
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, in the words of Joan Crawford ... "this ain't my first Rodeo."

    Proprietary Nikon software in this case is turtle slow for this application ... an application that I dump wedding images from a 35mm DSLR (now Sony), M9, my assistant's Canon 5D, and at times from the H camera, into one folder organized by time shot. "Horses for courses" is practiced at every wedding shoot.

    Lightroom does the job faster for this application with very little compromises ... and using that, the Sony files take less post work than either the Canon or Nikon. This became crystal clear when shooting both the A900 and D3X at the same weddings, in the same light, while I was thinking of making the transition. A whole season of weddings that way: 20,000+ images. You do catch on to trends while crunching through 20,000+ images at 1,000 a crack

    So yeah, I'll keep saying that because that is what I found ... for me. I will say that the Nikon wasn't bad for B&W conversions which I have said before, even in the Sony forum here.

    Where pray tell did you gain access to 100 of my photos? Even if you did, when was that? At any given time, a portfolio will reflect what I'm using then. In fact, a majority of my current portfolio and website stuff is done with a Hasselblad and Leica with some B&Ws from the Nikon and color from Sony.

    Were it not for weddings I wouldn't even own a 35mm DSLR. For what I do use one for I don't need all the ancillary systems stuff ... I never shoot macro with a 35 mm, never do TS work with a 35mm, never use one in the studio, rarely use super-telephoto (and would rent one if I did).

    How does this relate to the S2 subject? I had dearly hoped it would replace the 35mm DSLR ... and with more improvements, and a few more lenses, it still might.

    -Marc
    Well, if you use C1 Pro for post processing, then you can do all post in lightening speed - for Nikon as well as for Sony. And what even matters more - with absolutely industry leading results!

    I never would use any Nikon with Nikon's SW nor any Alpha with any Sony SW. Lessons I learned long years ago and still are true!

    Also I never understood why anyone would prefer LR 2 or 3 compared to C1 Pro, all important and necessary post processing can be done easily and perfect in C1 Pro. And if you need more then there is NO WAY around PS. It only can boil down to a matter of taste to prefer LR, but for sure not efficiency and quality.

    Now you can argue I am not a pro, only semi pro, but I can tell you that even as a high end amateur I would ask more from post processing SW as most pros do, as I just have even less time for doing this work. So also this argument would not hit.

  37. #37
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, if you use C1 Pro for post processing, then you can do all post in lightening speed - for Nikon as well as for Sony. And what even matters more - with absolutely industry leading results!

    I never would use any Nikon with Nikon's SW nor any Alpha with any Sony SW. Lessons I learned long years ago and still are true!

    Also I never understood why anyone would prefer LR 2 or 3 compared to C1 Pro, all important and necessary post processing can be done easily and perfect in C1 Pro. And if you need more then there is NO WAY around PS. It only can boil down to a matter of taste to prefer LR, but for sure not efficiency and quality.

    Now you can argue I am not a pro, only semi pro, but I can tell you that even as a high end amateur I would ask more from post processing SW as most pros do, as I just have even less time for doing this work. So also this argument would not hit.
    Lightroom is simply the fastest software on the planet ...and that counts for some applications. With LR3 I do not need PS to do very many images anymore ... the tools in LR have become so comprehensive that there are things you can do there in seconds that take multiple steps in PS and you can't do at all in C1 or Phocus. You just have to use it enough to learn them.

    I have the latest C1 Pro, and it's great when I have leisure time to process. I also use Phocus for more critical work, and of course all the tethered shooting. They are snails compared to LR3, and then require additional steps in PS for many refinements.

    BTW, not one single comment, from one single client, regarding file quality ... including some pretty picky Art Directors.

    Different strokes for different folks

    -Marc

  38. #38
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Marc,

    you start to convince me to look again into LR - this time LR3

    Hmmm - I was a convinced user of LR before I started with a C1 Pro 4.xyz version and I got so used to C1 Pro now. Maybe it is really worth to try LR3.

    Peter

  39. #39
    Subscriber Member Corlan F.'s Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I made similar experiences with the A900. Switched over from Nikon (D3) to the A900 mainly because of high resolution and attractive price. I was never really happy with what came out of the camera, needed a lot of post processing to come close to the Nikon D3 standards, of course resolution was double.

    Also the very much favored Zeiss lenses (which are actually made by Sony under Zeiss control - whatever that means) never fascinated me. They feel like cheap plastic and the optical qualities are for sure not better than their Nikon counterparts with Nano coating.

    So finally nothing could hold me in the Sony camp (I was the bad guy then in the Sony threads of course ) and I switched back to Nikon some 5 months ago and am a very happy Nikon user again - although only with the D700 because for higher res I use my H3D39.

    I already mentioned on a different thread that tastes are obviously VERY different and that I do not back at all the experiences and positives which Marc made with the A900. Not a bad camera, not a bad system, but IMHO not even close to Nikon.

    Will the S2 improve? Good question, I think maybe, but it will take time and as long Leica fools around with non dedicated post processing SW success is pretty questionable. Also stated very often, had they gone with Phase One (C1 Pro) from the beginning for their S System, things would look TOTALLY different. Many of us raised that concern when it became obvious that they were no longer going with Phase for post processing. Actually this was a knock out criterium during my MF evaluation time for the S System. Well maybe in some years they will reach the same level as Phase or Hasselblad have today because of post processing, but then these 2 will be again further ahead. So actually they will never ever become top IMHO.
    Peter, it's interesting that you mention the D700 here because that's exactly the camera i was thinking about when talking about the possible evolution of the S2. The D700 performance has been dramatically improved with the FW update 1.02 esp in terms of colors and AWB (and even high ISO noise and DR IMO but there's a controversy about these last two criterias, some arguing -mainly- that if there was any improvements then Nikon would have communicated on them). Notwithstanding, it proves that a "excellent camera" can be significantly bettered via software revisions.

    Re the PP SW, after comparing in-depth everything out there i was using C1 with the D700 which in most cases was clearly superior to the competitors (except NX2 for some specific files). Couple of things since then:

    1/ to my surprise -and disappointment- C1 was not up to the task with the D3X. Some others with the same findings say, rightfully or not, that it has something to do with some non-commitment on PO side, "not providing the best curves for a potential 22MP commpetitor". Don't know it that's true or not, and don't really care. In the end what counts for us users is that we have to go back to other SW for NEFS, be it NX2 (with a good computer) or thankfully the new versions of ACR/LR which have improved a lot. And the same is true for D3 and D700 files, more and more users are going the LR3 route and results look extremely good. Much better than with LR2 or ACR 5.4-.

    2/ funny thing is that in C1, many users (including myself) report that the best profiles for D700 (and D3) are the one from... D3X. Go figure.

    3/ S2 vs. PO : there's apparently contradicting versions about what happened when at last minute Leica partnered with Adobe instead of C1 as it was originally planned. IIRC there's a whole thread about that issue somewhere on this very board. One didn't to go in bed with a direct competitor, one way or another. MHO is that's a profound mistake on both parts, seeing that it would have benefited everyone involved, including the users. Corporate policies decided otherwise. What's for sure is that there's probably a lot of headroom for improvement on the SW part of the S2, be it working on the FW, or on the RAW PP/curves.

    In the meantime, and until it's a more of a complete system (lenses...), at least for the majority of users, Phase and Hasselblad sure have the upper hand with their latest models and their own great dedicated sw.

  40. #40
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Marc,

    you start to convince me to look again into LR - this time LR3

    Hmmm - I was a convinced user of LR before I started with a C1 Pro 4.xyz version and I got so used to C1 Pro now. Maybe it is really worth to try LR3.

    Peter
    Funny, I never wanted to take up learning LR at all ... it was my good friend Irakly Shandize that hounded me into doing it. Every time I argued that this or that couldn't be done, he'd show me that it could. The man is a wizard at post processing as well as being one of the best photographers I know.

    http://www.shanidze.com/en/index.php

    Hopefully, Adobe and Leica will get things sorted out, and then LR will be a better solution than it now is. It's early in the life of the S2, improvement is sure to come. Time will tell.

    -Marc

  41. #41
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... we shot the S2 side-by-side against a Canon 1DsMKIII and L lenses, and the S2 held DR much better than the Canon did. In fact, my buddy with the Canon has since joined the ranks of MFD shooters because of that experience.
    Tell me about it... after trying out an aptus and a p30+ yesterday for a scant few minutes, the obvious thing that stood out to me was the handling of highlights over any 35mm cam I've ever used. Lovely.

    And I agree on the "look" of how the d3x handles highlights. I was hoping GREATLY some time back that the d3x could be a one-camera solution for me. I'm a minimalist at heart and enjoy using a single system as much as is possible. But looking at images, especially fashion and wedding images with it... the highlight rendering, to me, had a similar appearance to that of the over-zealous use of the highlight recovery slider in LR. They just didn't "sparkle".

    But, man... my canon gear... talk about not happy after shooting the MF stuff yesterday. The highlights are sssooooo nice on the backs. The s2 highlight retention may be a bit less than some of the other backs (i guess?), but it still has a much nicer look than it's 35mm counterparts, IMO.

    And I'll agree that LR, for wedding work, is unparalleled. I don't even dip into PS anymore for volume work unless there is something special that would call for it (perspective correction in post, or some "special effect" I've been asked to use). I still like PS better for fine editing for art-work, but nothing beats LR when it comes to great speed and great quality under one roof.

  42. #42
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    C1 but you knew I would say that. I just did a gig with over 5 thousand shots made and processed all in C1 for a final of about 3200 on deadline each day for a show.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  43. #43
    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    when you nail it.......S2, 70mm Summarit, f2.5, 1/750s.
    no artistic value, just trying things out.
    peter

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    And at f2.5, no less!

  45. #45
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    C1 but you knew I would say that. I just did a gig with over 5 thousand shots made and processed all in C1 for a final of about 3200 on deadline each day for a show.
    I can't wait to get into C1 some more, Guy... but man, they need to add adjustment brushed ala lightroom. If I could paint in some minor exposure, contrast, or clarity adjustments in C1, I'd be tickled pink. I love, on occasion, dropping the exposure of an entire file back about 1/3-2/3 and then painting it back in (a 1/3 exposure boost) on the subject to make them pop almost imperceptibly from the scene. I don't do it often, but in B/W journalistic work, it can really help the storytelling a bunch in situations where the light is a bit too flat.

    Maybe in the next version?

    OK... now I'm getting too OT.

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    I can't wait to get into C1 some more, Guy... but man, they need to add adjustment brushed ala lightroom. If I could paint in some minor exposure, contrast, or clarity adjustments in C1, I'd be tickled pink. I love, on occasion, dropping the exposure of an entire file back about 1/3-2/3 and then painting it back in (a 1/3 exposure boost) on the subject to make them pop almost imperceptibly from the scene. I don't do it often, but in B/W journalistic work, it can really help the storytelling a bunch in situations where the light is a bit too flat.

    Maybe in the next version?

    OK... now I'm getting too OT.
    Shelby,

    I'm right there with you. The Adjustment Brush and Gradient Tool in LR are awesome. I almost never go into PS anymore since so much localized, non-destructive editing can be done in LR (and quickly!). Aperture has similar tools as well.

    Maybe, C1 will get these updates in V6. I don't rule anything out.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  47. #47
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Shelby,

    I'm right there with you. The Adjustment Brush and Gradient Tool in LR are awesome. I almost never go into PS anymore since so much localized, non-destructive editing can be done in LR (and quickly!). Aperture has similar tools as well.

    Maybe, C1 will get these updates in V6. I don't rule anything out.

    David
    Right there with you guys ... this is why LR is so darned fast.

    I use the adjustment brushes all the time ... and what is very cool is that if you lift a specific area you can click on the color adjust box and bring the color back for just that area.

    LR has cut my post time at least in half.

    If Leica matures their LR interface with various profile choices like are available for some of the 35mm DSLRs, I think it'll get better for users.

    -Marc

  48. #48
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If Leica matures their LR interface with various profile choices like are available for some of the 35mm DSLRs, I think it'll get better for users.

    -Marc
    I'm surprised someone already hasn't gotten an S2 and made their own profiles (colorchecker passport or DNG profile editor kinda stuff)... and then really worked sharpening presets and all... and then sold them.

    Everyone's been screaming for a more mature S2/LR relationship.

    Lightroom, at it's heart, is more configurable for color/sharpness than most people give it credit for... it took me a long time to realize this. I think the slider-based interface gives it a bit of a dumbed-down perception for many. It's not the "best" right out of the box, but man, can it be tinkered with.

    I'm betting that it's only a matter of time before the S2 users have more compelling LR configurations.

    Hey... how about some more pics from Jerusalem, Peter?

  49. #49
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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    I'm surprised someone already hasn't gotten an S2 and made their own profiles (colorchecker passport or DNG profile editor kinda stuff)... and then really worked sharpening presets and all... and then sold them.

    Everyone's been screaming for a more mature S2/LR relationship.

    Lightroom, at it's heart, is more configurable for color/sharpness than most people give it credit for... it took me a long time to realize this. I think the slider-based interface gives it a bit of a dumbed-down perception for many. It's not the "best" right out of the box, but man, can it be tinkered with.

    I'm betting that it's only a matter of time before the S2 users have more compelling LR configurations.

    Hey... how about some more pics from Jerusalem, Peter?
    Shelby,

    I've made a LR3 preset for the S2 that I'm pretty happy with. It's slightly aggressive with regards to shadow contrast, color saturation and sharpness... which is my personal preference. Of course, anyone can easily dial back some of my tweaks and then save the modified results as their own preset. I don't sell it - I give it away for free to anyone who wants it. It is designed for lower ISO images (80, 160, 320). I'm currently testing and working on a high ISO preset.

    David's S2 Preset (LR3).lrtemplate

    I've also made a custom camera input ICC color profile for C1 for the S2. This doesn't address any quality of RAW conversion (obviously), just makes the colors much more accurate/pleasing. Also free for anyone that wants it.

    LeicaR8-Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209).icc

    I have a pretty strong feeling that we will be seeing some more specific profiles from Adobe for the S2 very soon.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: S2 in the field: Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    ...And I'll agree that LR, for wedding work, is unparalleled. I don't even dip into PS anymore for volume work unless there is something special that would call for it (perspective correction in post, or some "special effect" I've been asked to use). I still like PS better for fine editing for art-work, but nothing beats LR when it comes to great speed and great quality under one roof.
    Pseudo perspective correction is now available in LR3 via the lens correction section.

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