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Sinar Hy6 first impressions

David K

Workshop Member
Interesting to see two Leaf shooters considering the switch to Hasselblad. Well, someone's got to keep the economy running :) I'm still happy with my Contax kit and am heavily invested in lenses, including the 45-90 zoom which I'm very happy with and is probably my most used lens in studio. If you guys do decide to switch it would be interesting to know the cost. I'm guessing it won't be cheap.
 

kipling

New member
Interesting to see two Leaf shooters considering the switch to Hasselblad. Well, someone's got to keep the economy running :) I'm still happy with my Contax kit and am heavily invested in lenses, including the 45-90 zoom which I'm very happy with and is probably my most used lens in studio. If you guys do decide to switch it would be interesting to know the cost. I'm guessing it won't be cheap.
you guessed right, the switch is very good for the economy : D
for me it depends on what i can get out of my leaf. the trade in policy from hassy doesn't make sense for me. i'm hoping to get a lot more than they are offering me. if i can, i'll probably fly to the states and either buy from steve hendrix or a dealer in nyc. the euro is so strong that i save big time with the exchange + the price difference (if it costs 20,000 euros here it costs 20,000 $ there) so i save double. and that's what makes it worth the change for me.
as for contax, i like the system and the lenses, but i never wanted to pay top dollar for the 35mm and the zoom for a system i knew was withering away. battery consumption is ridiculous, i need at least three bodies because the rent places don't carry them any longer and the components for the body aren't made any more...if one goes down i probably can't get it fixed anytime soon so i need a back up. with hassy it's the other way around. everybody on the planet carries them.
if i can't get a good price for the leaf i'll trade up for an s back and either go with an hy6 (but i have grave doubts about it. i'm not into beta, bleeding edge camera equipment), the new mamiya when it comes out this spring or the hassy.
all i know is the next move i make will be (hopefully) the last. i'd like to find a system that works like my nikon and be done with it.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The total cost for a 39 megapixel back and a new dedicated body as well as the new 28mm from blad is a tad more than I paid for the Aptus 75. After trade in of the Leaf back and my old H1 the changeover becomes less than half of that cost. I have therefore 'lost' about 40% of the money I paid for the Leaf in changeover before depreciation. However 20% of that 'loss' was the GST tax paid on initial purchase.

Since I depreciate the Leaf back over the 18 months in direct proportion to useful life, according to tax rules here in Australia over the period I have owned it - the economic cost of the changeover after tax becomes less than 25% of the original outlay.

My peace of mind into a settled system whose lenses and mounts I already use and own is worth that 'cost' to me.

Furthermore, I have no doubt that Phase One and Leaf and Sinar will come out with magazine articles suggesting that the testing proved without a doubt that their backs are better than Hasselblad on this and that measure.

Not one of these competing manufacturers offers a complete integrated system that works. Everyone of these manufacturers is cobbling together a makeshift system and/or clunky software. -:)

Thus ends my care for further investigation into MFDB systems and my patient waiting for vapourware ...
 

David K

Workshop Member
Kip,
Thanks for sharing your thinking on this. Don't know what your schedule for coming to the states is but Steve Hendrix is doing a Southeast tour next week (wish he was coming to Florida) where you can compare the Hasselblad H3DII, the Leaf AFi7 and the Sinar Hy6. BTW, I can't believe the cost differential between buying locally and buying in the states... it's staggering.
 

kipling

New member
Kip,
Thanks for sharing your thinking on this. Don't know what your schedule for coming to the states is but Steve Hendrix is doing a Southeast tour next week (wish he was coming to Florida) where you can compare the Hasselblad H3DII, the Leaf AFi7 and the Sinar Hy6. BTW, I can't believe the cost differential between buying locally and buying in the states... it's staggering.
it would be great if someone could actually report on the three after using them. i'll be testing (the middle of january at the earliest as i've been informed) the h3d II 31 with the 50-110mm and the leaf afi6 wih the a65s back and a schneider 60-140mm varigon (just the lens costs €4,600 = $6,725!!!). but in the end with the leaf upgrade it's less expensive to go the afi route here. i'm going to use the a65s on an h2 as well and if i don't see a really good argument for either of the new systems i'll just go that route and be done with it for another couple of years.
what i don't understand is why a trade in to get into another system is so much less interesting than a trade up. seems like these companies would be fighting tooth and nail to get the few idiots willing to spend this kind of cash on their side.
 

robsteve

Subscriber
However 20% of that 'loss' was the GST tax paid on initial purchase....
Peter:

In Canada, if you trade an item in on another, you only pay the GST on the difference. Also, if you are a business, the GST can be deducted from your GST return/remittance. I though it would be similar in other countries with consumption taxes.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Rob that is correct. btw there is a lot of sophistry in my bean counter response -after the fact justfication of buying what is in fact a folly. Oh well teh markets have been kind to this hedge hog this year - fso why not. -:)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well, I did report the same basic findings after a demonstration of the Leaf AFi in my studio. However, I also did do a controlled shoot. After we did the demo with the AFi and the rep left, I shot the same set up with my H3D/39. Long story short: that little demo saved me a bundle of cash. No Afi in my future either.

Hasselblad is relentlessly improving the speed and functionality of my H cameras ... 2 firmware/software upgrades in the past 2 months ... and as stated above, have come a hell of a long way in 2 years. More to come really soon. As a total system it's approaching the DSLRs in integrated performance. So much so that I now am considering canceling my order for the $8,000. Canon 1DsMKII and just sticking with a 1DMKIII for fast, super high ISO candid work.

The H3s are my primary money makers. They will continue to do so.

Peter, that scanner is GREAT! I have the 949 which is essentially the same.
It scans so fast that it's scary.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Marc - the scanner is something I have been thinking about for a long time ( as you know). The functionality and speed is pretty good as you say -:) I can now start shooting film again...whilst preserving a digi workflow where it matters. I am afraid I will become a boring forum person though as I dont think I will buying any more camera gear (except for maybe one or two R primes) in the foreseeable future! LOL
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Not boring IF you post some photos Peter. The hub-bub about new gear will die down as these decisions are made. I made mine also, so I've got nothing more to add either ... except using the damned stuff : =)
 

kipling

New member
Well, I did report the same basic findings after a demonstration of the Leaf AFi in my studio. However, I also did do a controlled shoot. After we did the demo with the AFi and the rep left, I shot the same set up with my H3D/39. Long story short: that little demo saved me a bundle of cash. No Afi in my future either.
marc, can you tell me a litle about the dfferences yo experienced in your demo? af speed and accuracy, sharpness & detail (which lens did you use on te afi?),etc?

thanks, kipling
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Sorry Kipling, I just saw your post.

In a nutshell, the Leaf rep shot a simple still life set-up in my studio with their top end Hy6 (AFi-7 w/33 meg Dalsa sensor) with the Schneider 80/2.8AF mounted to my studio stand, and we goofed around with it for awhile. ISO 50 using Profoto Strobes in Plume softbox using a Profoto D-4 generator. All very consistent and repeatable. Before he left, I downloaded those RAW files to a hard drive ... but left the set-up and strobe settings exactly as we shot it.

After he left, I then fired up the Hasselblad H3D/39 and shot the set-up again with H/C 80/2.8, camera on stand without changing anything. I processed both as DNGs and brought them into Adobe Camera RAW as shot, did nothing to them and opened them as 100%, 16 bit tiffs. The H3D shots were actually a tad better exhibiting better control of specular highlights and slightly less CA. The CA was easy to correct in post. In short, not any sort of significant difference, but unfortunately "significant" was exactly what I was looking for.... especially from the lenses.

In fact, the only significant thing I experienced was the AFi pricing : -(

As far as handling, I prefer the H cameras for their versatility as a high resolution tethered studio unit then as a fast DSLR like unit for people and event work.

However, I wasn't looking to replace the H system ... I was after a replacement for my Mamiya RZ Pro-II with an Aptus 75s back that I use in studio.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yes, one lens, one studio set-up ... also shot other random shots to feel the handling and AF which also were not significant IMO ... in fact less than significant for my needs and use.

Like Peter, I really was hoping this was going to be the answer. In my case to replace all the Mamiya RZ and maybe even Hasselblad V gear. I sure the heck am not blindly loyal to anything if something else will give me an edge or provide something visibly better, or in-line with what I subjectively feel is better.

Conversely, I won't bail on a system that's working just fine as is, and isn't surpassed in a significant way ... if that sucker had a 54X54 sensor THAT would be significant and be of great interest. But it doesn't, and what it is isn't worth the financial flogging I'd take to go there to gain absolutely nothing what-so-ever.

Frankly, I was bummed.
 

kipling

New member
Sorry Kipling, I just saw your post.

In a nutshell, the Leaf rep shot a simple still life set-up in my studio with their top end Hy6 (AFi-7 w/33 meg Dalsa sensor) with the Schneider 80/2.8AF mounted to my studio stand, and we goofed around with it for awhile. ISO 50 using Profoto Strobes in Plume softbox using a Profoto D-4 generator. All very consistent and repeatable. Before he left, I downloaded those RAW files to a hard drive ... but left the set-up and strobe settings exactly as we shot it.

After he left, I then fired up the Hasselblad H3D/39 and shot the set-up again with H/C 80/2.8, camera on stand without changing anything. I processed both as DNGs and brought them into Adobe Camera RAW as shot, did nothing to them and opened them as 100%, 16 bit tiffs. The H3D shots were actually a tad better exhibiting better control of specular highlights and slightly less CA. The CA was easy to correct in post. In short, not any sort of significant difference, but unfortunately "significant" was exactly what I was looking for.... especially from the lenses.

In fact, the only significant thing I experienced was the AFi pricing : -(

As far as handling, I prefer the H cameras for their versatility as a high resolution tethered studio unit then as a fast DSLR like unit for people and event work.

However, I wasn't looking to replace the H system ... I was after a replacement for my Mamiya RZ Pro-II with an Aptus 75s back that I use in studio.
thanks for your info marc. i do a lot of location work as well so i was wondering more about the handling, af, speed, size and viewfinder than the file quality. i know the leaf backs perform well as do the hasselblad backs.
i wasn't really expecting any optical improvement over the fuji lenses.
but if you we're interested in a studio setup you probably didn't look at af and handholding...

one other question if you don't mind. you used to use contax as i do now i think. how would you compare the hassy glass and af to the contax? i've handled an h2 a couple of times and like the feel of it and i was also impressed with the viewfinder compared to the cave-like view from the contax.
i'll be renting one next week, but if you could say something about the lenses and the af i'd be interested to hear it.

thanks again. kip
 

fotografz

Well-known member
thanks for your info marc. i do a lot of location work as well so i was wondering more about the handling, af, speed, size and viewfinder than the file quality. i know the leaf backs perform well as do the hasselblad backs.
i wasn't really expecting any optical improvement over the fuji lenses.
but if you we're interested in a studio setup you probably didn't look at af and hand-holding...

one other question if you don't mind. you used to use contax as i do now i think. how would you compare the hassy glass and af to the contax? i've handled an h2 a couple of times and like the feel of it and i was also impressed with the viewfinder compared to the cave-like view from the contax.
i'll be renting one next week, but if you could say something about the lenses and the af i'd be interested to hear it.

thanks again. kip
Actually, I did look at the camera from the perspective of AF and handheld work. I use a V camera that way more than in studio. I found the Hy6 to be lighter weight than its appearance would lead you to believe, and the viewfinder is quite bright ... but this was with a waist level finder as the prism wasn't available for this demo.

Irakly came toward the end of the demo and was almost entirely interested in the camera from a speed, candid people shooting POV. He was also not all that impressed with the lens ... and he owns and shoots Rollei.

Irakly also pointed out that they changed the way the adjustable handle is controlled from the way his Rollei handle works .... where you can move it without stopping the action to press the release like you have to do with the Hy6.

I was disappointed that the back didn't rotate like Rollei has had before, and my RZ does now. You have to remove the back and rotate it to portrait orientation ... which of course you need not do with a 645 like the H camera , Mamiya or your Contax. I do NOT like removing the back while shooting candid or location work... especially fast paced stuff.

The 645s comparison: Note that it may seem I am favoring the H system because I own it and am justifying that decision. Of course that is true, but it was a decision that was informed by owning all three major 645 choices and using them a LOT. I used a Contax 645 for many, many years, and still own a Mamiya 645 AFD-II for use with a Aptus 75s.

The Contax was an incredible camera for its time, and still is a viable choice in some regards. Irakly still uses one with a Kodak ProBack 645C to great ends. If Kyocera had stayed the course and continued development of the C645, who knows what the playing field would be like today.

The HD cameras run circles around the C645 in terms of integrated performance, clarity, functional camera control, flash control, and especially AF speed and accuracy. The power supply is a non issue with the H system with the grip providing power seamlessly to the camera and back. Each iteration of the H system software/firmware brings new user functionality and speed of operation. The more they integrate the system the faster it gets. Except for multiple focus point control, I now find the H camera as easy or easier to use than my Canon 1DMKII.

I had gone into the H system with a preconceived bias for Zeiss glass ... and did not make the leap from Contax 645 to the H until they offered the CF adapter to use my Zeiss V lenses on the H. That prejudice turned out to be unfounded. The characteristics are different to be sure, but the Fuji glass is beautifully made and the characteristics hold their own with the Contax glass ... which differs in degree lens to lens ... as you know, the Contax 120 macro is probably one of the best ever made, and the 80/2 is not only the fastest but one of the finer standard lens made for MF. However, the HC 100/2.2 won me over as my standard lens, and having a 28, 35 and 50mm with DAC software correction is amazing ... further proof of the integrated concept.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
I was disappointed that the back didn't rotate like Rollei has had before, and my RZ does now. You have to remove the back and rotate it to portrait orientation ...
In case you did not know, there is a new adapter coming which will allow simple back rotation. Just be patient.

Or... you can rotate the camera like you have to with its competitors.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
In case you did not know, there is a new adapter coming which will allow simple back rotation. Just be patient.

Or... you can rotate the camera like you have to with its competitors.
Good to know there is a rotation adapter coming. That's a great feature. Where can I find info on that? The Leaf rep said nothing about it when I asked .... which makes me wonder if the AFi will offer it. Also wonder how much that will incrementally add to an already overpriced system given the job it'll have to do?

Rotating the camera isn't an option with waist level finder any more than it is with a Hassselblad V camera. My intent, as clearly stated, is to replace the RZ and V camera which can be used with a waist level finder for lower perspective work.

The advice as to exercising patience is good advice. Wait until other early adopters fund the R&D on this system, and it either survives and the pricing settles, or these incremental add-ons become standard equipment.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
The revolving adapter will be available begin of 2008, most probably by end of January, for the Sinar Hy6.

You can get all prices information from SinarBron Imaging, by contacting Greg King at SBI ([email protected])

best regards,
Thierry

Good to know there is a rotation adapter coming. That's a great feature. Where can I find info on that? The Leaf rep said nothing about it when I asked .... which makes me wonder if the AFi will offer it. Also wonder how much that will incrementally add to an already overpriced system given the job it'll have to do?

The advice as to exercising patience is good advice. Wait until other early adopters fund the R&D on this system, and it either survives and the pricing settles, or these incremental add-ons become standard equipment.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thierry who is a major retailer in the US of Sinar . I am in the southwest part of the country but i travel a lot to NY and will be in LA for 2 weeks in January. I would just like to at least look at the systems. i will also be stopping in at PMA also before Jack and I travel to Moab Utah to do our workshop there, will Sinar be at PMA also.
 
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