Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 80

Thread: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

  1. #1
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    So... Steve Hendrix and I FINALLY met face to face today... after literally years of "MF close calls" on my part.

    I needed to get to Atlanta this week to get one of my trumpets worked on, pick up an item or two at Ikea... and most importantly, finally drop into CI and meet Steve and try out some gear. With all the running around I had to do, I only had about an hour or so in the shop, so we decided against trying multiple camera formats and instead opted on trying multiple backs (plus those other thugs at CI had taken all the newer gear to a workshop in Tampa ). We were stuck with an original AFD so we decided to make the test more about comparisons between two competing MF back typologies... microlenses (p30+) for better high-ISO and full-frame-ish lower ISO optimized backs (Aptus)

    What an illuminating hour! I shot an aptus II-8 and a p30+ with the 80/2.8D in the alley just beside the shop... all natural light. Bright conditions, but we hid in the shade and I augmented the light with a white reflector. Am I seeing corretcly that a "normal" lens doesn't seem to exaggerate noses as much in MF. I would never shoot headshots with a 50 on a 35mm camera.

    Firstly. IMO the original AFD is not a good enough camera for these backs. It works fine, and TBH, the shutter isn't much mushier than my 5dII, lol (but the lag is worse). The big problem is the AF circle is too damned big to be sure of what you're focusing on... consequently, basically all my shots were slightly OoF mostly to the front (tip of the nose). I only shot about 40 frames total... and the spent the rest of the time looking at the files on the computer... Steve was really helpful showing me both LC11 and C1v5.

    On the aptus files... Leaf Capture had a wonderfully "gentle" rendering of the files. The roll-off to highlights was so nice and "filmic" while the skintones were very realistic. The interface, however, seemed far less refined when compared to C1v5. The aptus files in C1 (as opposed to LC) were a bit more contrasty and skintones seemed a bit less refined, but I was really impressed at the similarity in rendering between the files. Neither was "better", per se... but I did prefer the use of secret sauce in LC with the Aptus. The difference was subtle though and proper profiling and tweaking could probably equalize the two renderings to a large extent.

    The p30+ was the big surprise for me. Even though I found the aptus files more "lovely", the files at ISO 200 and above were already becoming noisy. Funny, as a wedding shooter who doesn't mind noise, they did NOT seem overly noisy though. Still, I was on the edge with shutter speeds even wide open which killed some sharpness. But MAN... when I took the p30+ out... it was amazing how clean the files came out at ISO 400/800. Really clean with detail being kept. This also allowed for much higher shutter speeds.

    It was the first time I realized how much more the p30+ might be fitting for the type of work I do (which involves a lot of ambient shooting in "fat light"... broad shade on bright days). Even ISO 200 on the non micro-lens backs seems noisy compared to the p30+. In C1, the files from the p30+ were VERY nice. Again, IMO not as "lovely" as the Aptus files, but every bit as nice... and definitely clean.

    So , in the end, this very short trial of two different takes on MF backs was very illuminating for me. It really helped me realize... BY TRYING THE BACKS OUT IN THE SAME WAY THAT I SHOOT... that the ISO advantages of a p30+ (or similar) is going to outweigh the disadvantage of the slight crop at the sensor. Something I hadn't expected. I have been looking hard at the 22mp backs, but now realize they might not be as fitting for me.

    I'm a student now (again!), I'm waiting for the October announcements to pull the trigger (to see what it does to the prices of current backs), but I can't stress enough now how actually trying these backs out and looking at the files can make a difference. It's worth it.

    Here a quick work up... and know this was very slightly front focused, so the eyes weren't as sharp as they should be... but the color and file quality is SO nice. (would be nicer still if I had LC, but this a RD conversion). I love the look of these files. For the first time in a long time, they just look "right" as opposed to my 35mm stuff. Could they be better, sure, with practice... but boy are the already a TON better right out of the cam.

    Aptus II-8... p30+ to come later:

  2. #2
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    BTW... along the lines of the "do you miss your fast lenses" thread.

    This is an 80/2.8, wide open. Depth of field seems very close to a 50/1.4, wide open (maybe f2-ish), on a 35mm camera... only the rolloff to OoF is so much nicer.

    And the lens was bitingly sharp... wide open... with no "glowiness".

  3. #3
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Too bad a DF body was not around . Huge difference but more Important is you got to give the backs a run. I could have and probably did tell you all you discovered but you do really need to try them out. No question though in my mind for YOU the p30 plus is the one you want. Nice iso right to 800 with very little noise. I honestly had a real tough decision upgrading to the p40 from the p30 plus. Until the P40 plus hit the streets the p30 IMHO was the best general purpose back from phase. Now you may want to dessturate the p30 files very slightly for people . It's a kodak sensor which has more bite than the dalsa sensor . Just some playing can smooth it down a little. Nice thing is the P30 us can be had for great prices from your dealer. Get a DF body though
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  4. #4
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Sorry on iPhone bad typing here
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Nice shot Shelby!

    Three things in favour of the Aptus:

    1. The Aptus-II 8 makes a bigger file so when you're looking at both images at 100% the noise will be more apparent. If you scaled it down to 90MB (roughly the size of the P30+ image) or if you print both at the same given size, I think you will see the noise difference diminishing. I hope this makes sense?

    2. The extra speed (1 fps) of the Aptus might come in handy for weddings

    3. On the DF (if you get one) it'll sync at 1/1,600 which again might be useful sometimes

    HTH

    Yair

  6. #6
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Thanks Yair... all considerations I hadn't thought of yet. Much appreciated.

    But the price, the price...

    (i'm saying the same about the DF body!)

  7. #7
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Thanks Yair... all considerations I hadn't thought of yet. Much appreciated.

    But the price, the price...

    (i'm saying the same about the DF body!)
    Of course the good things come at a price

    You can perhaps look at the Aptus-II 6 (28MP) which is more comparable to the P30+, price wise and size wise and it shares most of the good stuff from the 8?

    Yair

  8. #8
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Nice shot Shelby!

    Three things in favour of the Aptus:

    1. The Aptus-II 8 makes a bigger file so when you're looking at both images at 100% the noise will be more apparent. If you scaled it down to 90MB (roughly the size of the P30+ image) or if you print both at the same given size, I think you will see the noise difference diminishing. I hope this makes sense?

    2. The extra speed (1 fps) of the Aptus might come in handy for weddings

    3. On the DF (if you get one) it'll sync at 1/1,600 which again might be useful sometimes

    HTH

    Yair

    Thanks Yair and just to be fair I was not eliminating the Leaf backs but just referring to the P30+ which I know and owned at one time. I don't speak of systems I have not used before that is a rule i always follow , wish sometimes others would as well. Not related here but you get my drift
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  9. #9
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32° 31' 37.06" N, 111° 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    The P30+ is a sweet back. The P30+ was my first Phase back and while I like the P45+ I upgraded only to work with a technical camera.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  10. #10
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    I wanted Sensor Plus and the Dalsa Sensor but that was a personal choice plus the upgrade path made sense and I am going to get a tech camera at some point
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  11. #11
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    I don't know if/how Leaf backs work into subsequent trade-in opportunities with Phase/Leaf/Mamiya, but that might also be a consideration to check out, particularly since you are about to head down Dante's dangerous medium format digital path... I know there should not be a problem with the P30+ .... (oh great swami sees a P40+ in your future...)

    Definitely whore yourself out anyway possible to get the DF body----that will make any MFDB experience much better!

    ken

  12. #12
    Member dogstarnyc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    nyc-london-nyc
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Spot on Ken....

    And well done Shelby for using your common sense and getting out there and trying kit.... Now you know you know.....
    ....If you know what I mean

    S

    p.s.

    Glad everything is working out for you.. keep rolling..

  13. #13
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I don't know if/how Leaf backs work into subsequent trade-in opportunities with Phase/Leaf/Mamiya, but that might also be a consideration to check out, particularly since you are about to head down Dante's dangerous medium format digital path... I know there should not be a problem with the P30+ .... (oh great swami sees a P40+ in your future...)

    Definitely whore yourself out anyway possible to get the DF body----that will make any MFDB experience much better!

    ken
    Ah... more things to swim around in my head. Ken, you are now the duly appointed Resident MF Gear Enabler. There isn't a thread on this board where I don't see you trying to convince someone to "upgrade", lol.

    And I haven't even bought my FIRST back

    I'm still gonna start with an RZ probably (for price and the slower working method). Hopefully a DF at the new year?

    Steve, thanks for the well wishes. I hope all is well with you and yours.

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Shelby, did you see this thread?

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16789

    Great RZ glass can be had for a song. The only question I would have is whether that back can be also used on the new Phase One 645 camera that you could get later.

    At any rate I think the path you are traveling is the right one ... even if not right now.

    I just shot my first wedding where the 645-MFD was used for a majority of the shots, (with the A900 & 24-70 used mostly as back-up) ... and I couldn't be more pleased. These new cameras handle very well, and once used enough you can get pretty fast with them handheld or on a monopod (with the right head).

    Best of luck.

    -Marc

  15. #15
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Hey Marc,

    As long as I get a ProIID, then the phase back will work on both systems... the older ProII takes a v-mount if used with a phase one back.

    I've actually been thinking, after shooting the 30+ yesterday and seeing the excellent 400 and 800 ISO, about the realities of using it during weddings. It originally hadn't even been part of my thought process, but if the DF is everything everyone makes it out to be... then it should be imminently usable in many of the weddings I shoot.

    You see, here in TN, brides somehow think that getting married outside in mid-summer is a good thing. I swear, in the fall and spring when the weather is nice, they all get married inside. Well... maybe the light in broad shade is fantastic for me in summer, but damn is it HOT.

    I'll take it though!

    That RZ33 is just a proIID with a mamiya rebadged Leaf back... but the discount available right now is nice. I'm probably going to pick up the RZ camera body on the used market and hope to find a used p30+ through CI... or maybe, just maybe, the price will drop a bit in October when the new announcements come out (whatever they happen to be).

    BTW... any monopod/head recommendations. I might start picking that stuff up here soon in anticipation of the back purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Shelby, did you see this thread?

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16789

    Great RZ glass can be had for a song. The only question I would have is whether that back can be also used on the new Phase One 645 camera that you could get later.

    At any rate I think the path you are traveling is the right one ... even if not right now.

    I just shot my first wedding where the 645-MFD was used for a majority of the shots, (with the A900 & 24-70 used mostly as back-up) ... and I couldn't be more pleased. These new cameras handle very well, and once used enough you can get pretty fast with them handheld or on a monopod (with the right head).

    Best of luck.

    -Marc

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Hey Marc,

    As long as I get a ProIID, then the phase back will work on both systems... the older ProII takes a v-mount if used with a phase one back.

    I've actually been thinking, after shooting the 30+ yesterday and seeing the excellent 400 and 800 ISO, about the realities of using it during weddings. It originally hadn't even been part of my thought process, but if the DF is everything everyone makes it out to be... then it should be imminently usable in many of the weddings I shoot.

    You see, here in TN, brides somehow think that getting married outside in mid-summer is a good thing. I swear, in the fall and spring when the weather is nice, they all get married inside. Well... maybe the light in broad shade is fantastic for me in summer, but damn is it HOT.

    I'll take it though!

    That RZ33 is just a proIID with a mamiya rebadged Leaf back... but the discount available right now is nice. I'm probably going to pick up the RZ camera body on the used market and hope to find a used p30+ through CI... or maybe, just maybe, the price will drop a bit in October when the new announcements come out (whatever they happen to be).

    BTW... any monopod/head recommendations. I might start picking that stuff up here soon in anticipation of the back purchase.
    Shelby,

    I think you may be surprised how well one of these 40 meg MFDs work for weddings.

    I hear you about summer weddings LOL! This Sunday I took my H4D/40 because it was an outdoor wedding at noon ... no shade! The Dynamic Range was essential. Man was it HOT.

    Making it easier to shoot MFD weddings: I just got one of the new Think Tank lens bags and was able to shoot most of the wedding with 3 lenses ... 50mm, 100mm, and 210mm ... two in the lens bag, one on camera.

    For kicks, in my back-up bag I also took my 28mm ... and ... ... the little HTS unit to do some Tilt Shift work mostly with the 100mm ... which was an experimental learning experience placing the OOF areas where I wanted them. Super fun for portraits.

    I'm using a carbon fiber Gitzo Monopod ... but the real transformation for fast wedding use was recently getting the Really Right Stuff Heavy Duty Monopod Head with Arca type Quick Release. Can't recommend it enough!

    -Marc

  17. #17
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Daddy, it says we're about 1.3 stop over...I'm gonna change it to 1/60 OK???

    He'll be 3 at the end of this month and is already mastering the Aptus-II/ 645DF controls...

    (here helping me out with testing some firmware stuff)

    yair

  18. #18
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Daddy, it says we're about 1.3 stop over...I'm gonna change it to 1/60 OK???
    I see a new advert from Leaf... "So easy, a 3 year old could shoot with it!"

    Priceless shot... frame it and hang it in your office!

  19. #19
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Daddy, it says we're about 1.3 stop over...I'm gonna change it to 1/60 OK???

    He'll be 3 at the end of this month and is already mastering the Aptus-II/ 645DF controls...
    ....
    ...and you thought saving for college was going to be difficult.

  20. #20
    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Rome, Italy
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Beautiful shot Shelby,

    I'm also in contact with Steve, bough from CI before great service, I will also be testing out the Aptus II 10 and P1 P65+
    on DF bodies, and this friday I'm testing the H4D-40 and 50, no 60 thanks to David, that arranged via Jeff a demo with Matthew.. can't wait!

  21. #21
    tetsrfun
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Really Right Stuff Heavy Duty Monopod Head with Arca type Quick Release.
    *********
    The RRS MH-01 head and lever clamp is a great set up; the only problem is if the long axis of the camera plate is perpendicular to the lens axis.

    Steve

  22. #22
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    ...and you thought saving for college was going to be difficult.
    Especially with all those upgrades you'll talk him into, Ken.

  23. #23
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    I've done all that I can do to help stimulate the economy....now I'm left to spending vicariously through others!

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Daddy, it says we're about 1.3 stop over...I'm gonna change it to 1/60 OK???

    He'll be 3 at the end of this month and is already mastering the Aptus-II/ 645DF controls...

    (here helping me out with testing some firmware stuff)

    yair
    Fantastic post Yair - made me smile.
    Pete

  25. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    51
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Nice shot Shelby, we could have used you for our Tampa event.

    I would be one of those thugs that were using all the new DF bodies, We had 3 DF bodies with Aptus 8 (just amazing) and P40+ and P65+. But you would have really like to see the RZ33. Rotating the back without having to take it off was a pleasure. And not have the extra cables to deal with along the way was also on a different level. I have many people using the RZ with original style RZ adapter and V style back.

    I think it is well worth the extra investment to get the RZD solution so you can invest in a mount that can be interchanged between the DF bodies and the RZD. Rotating that back is so smooth compared to the original design.

    I wanted to make a comment about the 80mm lens shot at 2,8. I have seen a lot of catalog shooters produce stellar, shallow depth of field images with that dreamy out focus confusion with this lens. The new 80mm 2.8 both the Phase One/Mamiya 2.8 and LS, are really great lenses for digital.

    Now put the Phase One 150mm 2.8 lenses and shoot the same shot. Even better. No question the lenses that are designed and being used for these MF camera systems are on a whole different design level that 35mm. I have had many portrait photographers tell me that this is what impressed them most about the look of how their image quality can be changed. Of course add in all the extra shades of color and optical sharpness and you have more to work with and push and pull around during editing.

    Look forward to seeing more images once you start using it full time.



    Sincerely,

    Chris Snipes
    Sales Manager, Florida
    Capture Integration
    http://www.captureintegration.com

    Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More

    404.522.7662 Atlanta
    305.350.9900 Miami
    877.217.9870 National
    813.335.2473 Cell

    Sign up for our Email Newsletter
    Subscribe to our RSS Feed












    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    So... Steve Hendrix and I FINALLY met face to face today... after literally years of "MF close calls" on my part.

    I needed to get to Atlanta this week to get one of my trumpets worked on, pick up an item or two at Ikea... and most importantly, finally drop into CI and meet Steve and try out some gear. With all the running around I had to do, I only had about an hour or so in the shop, so we decided against trying multiple camera formats and instead opted on trying multiple backs (plus those other thugs at CI had taken all the newer gear to a workshop in Tampa ). We were stuck with an original AFD so we decided to make the test more about comparisons between two competing MF back typologies... microlenses (p30+) for better high-ISO and full-frame-ish lower ISO optimized backs (Aptus)

    What an illuminating hour! I shot an aptus II-8 and a p30+ with the 80/2.8D in the alley just beside the shop... all natural light. Bright conditions, but we hid in the shade and I augmented the light with a white reflector. Am I seeing corretcly that a "normal" lens doesn't seem to exaggerate noses as much in MF. I would never shoot headshots with a 50 on a 35mm camera.

    Firstly. IMO the original AFD is not a good enough camera for these backs. It works fine, and TBH, the shutter isn't much mushier than my 5dII, lol (but the lag is worse). The big problem is the AF circle is too damned big to be sure of what you're focusing on... consequently, basically all my shots were slightly OoF mostly to the front (tip of the nose). I only shot about 40 frames total... and the spent the rest of the time looking at the files on the computer... Steve was really helpful showing me both LC11 and C1v5.

    On the aptus files... Leaf Capture had a wonderfully "gentle" rendering of the files. The roll-off to highlights was so nice and "filmic" while the skintones were very realistic. The interface, however, seemed far less refined when compared to C1v5. The aptus files in C1 (as opposed to LC) were a bit more contrasty and skintones seemed a bit less refined, but I was really impressed at the similarity in rendering between the files. Neither was "better", per se... but I did prefer the use of secret sauce in LC with the Aptus. The difference was subtle though and proper profiling and tweaking could probably equalize the two renderings to a large extent.

    The p30+ was the big surprise for me. Even though I found the aptus files more "lovely", the files at ISO 200 and above were already becoming noisy. Funny, as a wedding shooter who doesn't mind noise, they did NOT seem overly noisy though. Still, I was on the edge with shutter speeds even wide open which killed some sharpness. But MAN... when I took the p30+ out... it was amazing how clean the files came out at ISO 400/800. Really clean with detail being kept. This also allowed for much higher shutter speeds.

    It was the first time I realized how much more the p30+ might be fitting for the type of work I do (which involves a lot of ambient shooting in "fat light"... broad shade on bright days). Even ISO 200 on the non micro-lens backs seems noisy compared to the p30+. In C1, the files from the p30+ were VERY nice. Again, IMO not as "lovely" as the Aptus files, but every bit as nice... and definitely clean.

    So , in the end, this very short trial of two different takes on MF backs was very illuminating for me. It really helped me realize... BY TRYING THE BACKS OUT IN THE SAME WAY THAT I SHOOT... that the ISO advantages of a p30+ (or similar) is going to outweigh the disadvantage of the slight crop at the sensor. Something I hadn't expected. I have been looking hard at the 22mp backs, but now realize they might not be as fitting for me.

    I'm a student now (again!), I'm waiting for the October announcements to pull the trigger (to see what it does to the prices of current backs), but I can't stress enough now how actually trying these backs out and looking at the files can make a difference. It's worth it.

    Here a quick work up... and know this was very slightly front focused, so the eyes weren't as sharp as they should be... but the color and file quality is SO nice. (would be nicer still if I had LC, but this a RD conversion). I love the look of these files. For the first time in a long time, they just look "right" as opposed to my 35mm stuff. Could they be better, sure, with practice... but boy are the already a TON better right out of the cam.

    Aptus II-8... p30+ to come later:

  26. #26
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    I would be one of those thugs that were using all the new DF bodies
    I'll make a note of that...

    I wanted to make a comment about the 80mm lens shot at 2,8. I have seen a lot of catalog shooters produce stellar, shallow depth of field images with that dreamy out focus confusion with this lens. The new 80mm 2.8 both the Phase One/Mamiya 2.8 and LS, are really great lenses for digital.

    Now put the Phase One 150mm 2.8 lenses and shoot the same shot. Even better. No question the lenses that are designed and being used for these MF camera systems are on a whole different design level that 35mm. I have had many portrait photographers tell me that this is what impressed them most about the look of how their image quality can be changed. Of course add in all the extra shades of color and optical sharpness and you have more to work with and push and pull around during editing.
    I love shooting faces at around 135mm on 35mm. The 150/2.8 is going to be perfect for me once I can afford it.

    No one replied, but I'd swear there is less perspective distortion on a "normal" lens in MF than on 35mm... say between the Phase 80/2.8 compared to a canon 50/1.4. Noses aren't as pronounced. Faces not so round. I know perspective is a function of subject-to-camera distance... is there something about the fact that I'm shooting an 80mm lens that compresses the perspective characteristics of a "normal" lens on MF as opposed to on the 35mm systems where "normal" is 50mm?

    Or is it just my eyes?

    I am, so far, very impressed with the rendering of the 80/2.8D ... it's not quite as zeiss-like as I prefer, but it's rendering is exponentially more lovely than the canon equivalent. Something about the great acutance in combination with the smoother roll-off to OoF. Really nice. When I was first starting in photography, I was a student and for a long time could only afford a DSLR and a 50mm lens. Shot like that for over a year... and still have some of my best work from that time. I could see a similar period with MF while I build a kit up. Back, camera body, and one or two lenses. Maybe a 35mm, 80mm, and the 150mm.

    Pull out the canon if I have to in order to fill in the gaps... even though I shoot weddings these days with only a 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm primes. I only go longer/wider if I absolutely HAVE to... which rarely happens especially with the ability to crop so heavily these days.

    Look forward to seeing more images once you start using it full time.
    Thanks Chris!

  27. #27
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post

    Or is it just my eyes?
    Neither... You've simply been assimilated

    Seriously, I know what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's focal length distortion per se. However, whatever the reason, a portrait shot with an 80 on MF has a distinctly different look than the same portrait shot on full-frame 35 with a 50. I think it may be more the way the DoF falls off.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  28. #28
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    No one replied, but I'd swear there is less perspective distortion on a "normal" lens in MF than on 35mm... say between the Phase 80/2.8 compared to a canon 50/1.4. Noses aren't as pronounced. Faces not so round. I know perspective is a function of subject-to-camera distance... is there something about the fact that I'm shooting an 80mm lens that compresses the perspective characteristics of a "normal" lens on MF as opposed to on the 35mm systems where "normal" is 50mm?

    Or is it just my eyes?
    The P30+ you tried was a 1.3x crop from full frame 645. So the 80mm is the FF-dSLR equivalent of a 63mm. Or in other words a tad longer than normal

    BTW...
    On a P30+ the "technical normal" lens (diagonal of the format) is 55mm.
    On a FF dSLR the "technical normal" lens (diagonal of the format) is 43mm.

    Add in a change in aspect ratio which can effect your composition and I can easily see where you'd notice a difference in perceived perspective.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
    __________________
    Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
    Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
    National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
    Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
    RSS Feed: Subscribe
    Buy Capture One at 10% off
    Personal Work

  29. #29
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Seriously, I know what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's focal length distortion per se. However, whatever the reason, a portrait shot with an 80 on MF has a distinctly different look than the same portrait shot on full-frame 35 with a 50. I think it may be more the way the DoF falls off.
    There is definitely a different look and when you see a difference which is hard to identify the cause/specifics of the brain searches hard to explain it.

    That's one of the reasons why we end up with a lot of "fuzzy" words like 3D-Ness.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
    __________________
    Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
    Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
    National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
    Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
    RSS Feed: Subscribe
    Buy Capture One at 10% off
    Personal Work

  30. #30
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    There is definitely a different look and when you see a difference which is hard to identify the cause/specifics of the brain searches hard to explain it.

    That's one of the reasons why we end up with a lot of "fuzzy" words like 3D-Ness.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
    __________________
    Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
    Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
    National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
    Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
    RSS Feed: Subscribe
    Buy Capture One at 10% off
    Personal Work
    BEST POST YET

    Why we shoot MF
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  31. #31
    New Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    México
    Posts
    18
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    FOV and Perspective view are 2 complementary terms. I might be completely wrong but moving from ASP-C to FF 35mm to MFD have made me to reanalyze this terms.

    If you are shooting a subject 15 feet away from 3 cameras (ASP-C, FF 35mm and MF) and you are using a 100mm lens and f/4 on each camera:

    1) The perspective view should be the same on the 3 cameras right?
    2) The FOV will be different?
    3) The DOF will be the same right?


    I blame the different sensor sizes, It's like when you have DX 35mm DSLR (1.5 crop factor) and people say "If you want a 50mm lens, the equivalent would be 35mm on DX"... yes the FOV (or angle of view) will be almost the same (44° and 46°) but the perspective view won't.... try to make the same portrait composition and look at their noses!

    I haven't test it, but that should apply to a 50mm on FF 35mm and 80mm on a FF MF like Shelby said... FOV is similar but perspective view is different, right?

    That's why MFD have less DOF because you have to get closer to have the same composition and therefore the DOF decreases...

    well... maybe I'm completely wrong but to find out I'm going to do a quick test and post images...

  32. #32
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by aldo View Post
    well... maybe I'm completely wrong but to find out I'm going to do a quick test and post images...
    Probably the best way to find out!

    What I'm wondering is if FoV and optical magnification are analogues.... that seems as though that would effect subject to camera distance as well. Maybe it has nothing to do with this at all, but given the different sensor sizes, maybe there difference in how the image (scene) has to be "resized" by the lens to cover a given sensor comes into play.

    Wish I had enough know-how about optical design to answer those questions!

    In the end... I like what I see on MF better, so I guess that's REALLY what matters, huh?

  33. #33
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Let's not forget 4/3 may have a lot to do with it as well which is a far better format for head and shoulders type work in my view. I know that can be disputed but I really have grown to love the 4/3 ratio over 3/2 ratio
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  34. #34
    New Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    México
    Posts
    18
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    I made a really quick test, nothing fancy, I just shoot my assistance (sorry, she has a bad hair day ) with a Nikon D700, f/8, ISO 200 (red square) and with a Hasselbald H4D-40, f/8, ISO 200 at 35mm, 50mm and 70mm. Same subject-camera distance.

    I upsampled the nikon images about 148% (so the head size would be the same) and tried to align them accordingly.

    I found that both had the same perspective view... and of course the angle of view is wider with the hasselblad... I also found the DOF to be exactly the same.









    The next couple images are Nikon 50mm f/5.6 and hasselblad 80mm f/5.6 with similar composition. Of course I had to get closer with the hasselblad to get the same framing. I can say that a 80mm on a MF doesn't have the same perspective view or DOF as a 50mm on a FF 35mm DSLR. On the nikon image the head looks a little distorted, so I think shelby was right saying that the look (and perspective view due compression) of the 80mm was different to the 50mm of the 35mm DSLR...

    I shoot the last 2 hand held at 1/250th. That's why the nikon looks a little sharper





    I uploaded the full 40MP jpegs here if you want to look at the details too:

    35mm Nikon+Hasseblad
    35mm Hasseblad
    50mm Nikon+Hasseblad
    50mm Hasseblad
    70mm Nikon+Hasseblad
    70mm Hasseblad
    50mm Nikon + 80mm Hasseblad
    80mm Hasseblad

  35. #35
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    A phase p30+ sample

    First... thanks Aldo for the test. Very helpful indeed!

    Ok... so here's a phase sample from the same shoot as above. I'm hesitant to post it because the lighting conditions had changed pretty drastically (sun to rain) and the only way to attempt "equalize" them was through some heavy post work. A few things noticeable to me

    • 10 less megapixels is evident. Not hugely, but evident, especially in the way hair texture renders.

    • In PS CS3, phase files look horrible, IMO... so I output the phase sample from RAW developer, just like the aptus II-8. The WB on both was eyeballed (Sorry!)... so take that for what it's worth. The phase file was a bit underexposed, but I find it had a bit less DR than the aptus... most noticeable in the hair on top of the head.

    • Even using RD as the converter, the Aptus file is indeed nicer for people. It has a certain rendering of skin that is really, really nice. That said, the p30+ wasn't bad at all... but it was more difficult to get the same look.

    • speaking of same look... know that by the time we put the phase back on the camera, we had gone from bright weather (but shooting in the shade), to rain. So I had shade that was MUCH less "broad". I tried to equalize that somewhat i post, but I'll admit it... the light during the Phase shots just wasn't NEAR as nice (which sucks).

    Ok.. enough talk...



    I love the phase file... but the Aptus file, in my very limited experience, is state of the art when it comes to shooting skin. That said... the phase file was at ISO400 and fairly noise-free while the aptus was a noisy 200. Tradeoffs!!!

  36. #36
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Please understand that these are the first aptus ii-8 and p30+ files I've EVER processed... so making statements based on my post processing (with non-dedicated software!) is something to do at your own risk!

    That said... there are differences...

  37. #37
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    And a neutral phase file

    A "neutral" p30+ file with no real post work except exposure and highlight/shadow adjustments to maximize the histogram... plus a resize and sharpening. WB taken from the third gray patch on the bottom row from the left.


  38. #38
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    I think this is just a result of flatter lighting and post work outside of C1 Pro. Hard to evaluate due to lighting changes and ISO shifts.

    C1 has an amazing ability to control skin tones and color. In C1 I think the differences may be less.

    Shelby, if I recall correctly, you are pretty good at LR3 and like to use it. Have you tried these files there? Like you I tend to do wedding stuff in LR because of the workflow and array of tools. I'd be interested in your observations.

    -Marc

  39. #39
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Yea have to agree Leaf and Phase files will be much better to control in C1. Also you maybe seeing the slight difference between Dalsa and Kodak. My P40+ has nicer skin tones than the Kodak P30+ or maybe better said like more range as the Kodak is more Kodachrome looking. Reason I said maybe desaturate just ever so slightly with the P30+. Also the Leaf in this case is a newer breed of sensor as well which I like these 6 micron sensors better. Seems to have more DR and tonal range over the 6.8. That is not a scientific comment but this Aptus II-8 uses the same P40+ sensor I believe.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  40. #40
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yea have to agree Leaf and Phase files will be much better to control in C1. Also you maybe seeing the slight difference between Dalsa and Kodak. My P40+ has nicer skin tones than the Kodak P30+ or maybe better said like more range as the Kodak is more Kodachrome looking. Reason I said maybe desaturate just ever so slightly with the P30+. Also the Leaf in this case is a newer breed of sensor as well which I like these 6 micron sensors better. Seems to have more DR and tonal range over the 6.8. That is not a scientific comment but this Aptus II-8 uses the same P40+ sensor I believe.

    Yes, the Leaf Aptus II 8 uses the same sensor (minus Sensor Plus technology) as far as I know. There are certainly differences in how skin tones are rendered between the Kodak and Dalsa sensors, not to mention between various raw processing programs. A Leaf Aptus II 8 file, processed in Leaf Capture, produces a wonderful skin rendering. There is most certainly a secret sauce that handles color and density gradations in a very natural (yes it's been termed film-like) and appealing manner, compared to other products.

    Knowing the lay of the land when it comes to some of the rather cryptic under-the-hood color settings in Leaf Capture can also be an advantage.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller

  41. #41
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Yes Steve I have never used Leaf Capture myself but the new Leaf backs can use either C1 or Leaf Capture which is pretty dang nice as they are both fully supported. End of day for me at least is I really like this Dalsa sensor better than anything I have had. When the P40+ first came out as reported on this forum I was not real happy with the color at all but as Phase kept updating C1 with new P40+ profiles and after my third time with it I just had to have it and bought it or maybe I should say i was not sending it back to Dave. LOL

    Jack and I both came from the Kodak 6.8 sensors with the P45+ and P30+ to obviously to the P65 and P40 and we both agree there is a difference in look and we both really like the Dalsa better. Now not to say we don't like the Kodaks it is just different and maybe the best way I can describe it is saturated color and leans to the warm side. Kodachrome

    The Dalsa just seems more neutral. The only real comparison to the Aptus and P40+ really comes down to feature sets. I wanted the sensor plus
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  42. #42
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Honestly I would find a way to get a P40+ first go steal a P25 off someone for cheap and upgrade for maybe only a 14k net purchase. That's a screaming deal. Not sure of Leaf's promotions right now but worth looking at.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  43. #43
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Honestly I would find a way to get a P40+ first go steal a P25 off someone for cheap and upgrade for maybe only a 14k net purchase. That's a screaming deal. Not sure of Leaf's promotions right now but worth looking at.
    Not gonna happen... I'm already gonna be a full time music doctoral student.... with all that entails as far as finances. I'm stretching to get myself set up for a used P30+ purchase (money-wise)... any further is basically an impossibility at this point. I'm also gonna have to come into this game with an RZ, both because I like it and because the DF is so freakin' expensive. I'm only gonna swing it due to some financial wrangling with some school expenses, a gear sell-off, and some unexpected money that's come my way lately... plus it WILL help me earn money while a student... which takes a bit of the sting off the purchase.

    The bundle deals are compelling... as are the upgrade deals... but I'm coming into this a piece at a time as a first time customer. If some miracle happens and I can afford a newer back, so be it... but I'm not banking on it.

    Oh... and my wife is also gonna be in school full-time too and I have three kids.

    Priorities, priorities. (ie, I still haven't ruled out a ZD )

  44. #44
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Honestly I would find a way to get a P40+ first go steal a P25 off someone for cheap and upgrade for maybe only a 14k net purchase. That's a screaming deal. Not sure of Leaf's promotions right now but worth looking at.

    Guy

    Sorry but the pricing you quoted is not accurate. OMG, it's less!

    Upgrade from P25 to P40+ is $9,990.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller

  45. #45
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Yeah... but don't forget the initial $5K for the p25 = $14K

    ouch (for me!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Guy

    Sorry but the pricing you quoted is not accurate. OMG, it's less!

    Upgrade from P25 to P40+ is $9,990.


    Steve Hendrix

  46. #46
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Shelby here's another article that might make you choose part-time school only
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  47. #47
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Yeah... but don't forget the initial $5K for the p25 = $14K

    ouch (for me!)
    Plus, you may want to have a camera to put it on ... and maybe a lens.

    Run Shelby, run.

  48. #48
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Dante is chasing you. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #49
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    ...and I have three kids.
    )
    Better hurry up and get whatever gear you're planning on before they start college

  50. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A Short Learning Experience in MF (p30+ and Aptus II-8)

    I've shot a P30+ only once and very briefly on an older AFDII body. The files were great, very good highlight detail and tonal separation, but I found the colour a bit odd. Like Guy has mentioned, it was a little warm and biased to the red / magenta from memory. I've long lost the files, though. Good luck.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •