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Alpa Photokina Preview

narikin

New member
Anyone who has used Alpa for a few years understands that there are better stitching options out there for non wide lens useage. Alpas are elegant wide angle solutions.

The TC announced above is a great idea for simple stitching in small package - I am a buyer.

OR for wide and for longer than 35mm focal lengths - go arTec - and for really long focal lengths - you dont need a tech camera anyway - use your digi back on one of the 645's with a 150-210/300 etc.on rails around nodal point.

horses for courses.
Agree.

The problem is ALPA aren't sold as wide angle only.
and secondly a normal lens IS a wide lens when you stitch to the left and right of it.
so unless you want superwide stitches, just be sure to check out the mechanical limitations of the ALPA system before investing.
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Thank you Narikin and Peter for your feedback . Good information .

Sounds all very logical and true is : horses for courses .

I experienced the very same "body vignetting issue" with my ARCA SWISS 6x9 . As I can also use that camera as a 4x5 inch camera , a good solution would have been to have a format reduction board , to go from 4x5 inch to 6x9 cm for the rear standard .
Unfortunately that reduction board was designed but never built .
With that reduction board the "body vignetting issue" could have been avoided .
But again , horses for courses , it is of course much easier to shoot with an ALPA than with a monorail camera .

The stitching abilities of an ALPA are sufficient enough for me and my biggest prints . So the STC will be on my (wish) list .

On the other hand I do believe that not only your camera will give you limitations , but also the fact , that you can not shift "endless" . You will reach the limits of the image circle of your lens very soon .
Schneider and Rodenstock are working on digital lenses with bigger image circles but also the angle of the lightrays falling on the sensor will give you very narrow limits . More for WA lenses of course .

My SB lens Rodenstock DIGARON-W 5,6/90mm will arrive today plus the 34mm extension "tube" .
Would you recommend to use that lens with the "extension tube" mounted to the rear of the camera in general ? ? Or for stitching only ? ?

Regards Jürgen
 

narikin

New member
My SB lens Rodenstock DIGARON-W 5,6/90mm will arrive today plus the 34mm extension "tube" .
Would you recommend to use that lens with the "extension tube" mounted to the rear of the camera in general ? ? Or for stitching only ? ?
exactly - the stitching abilities of this lens are much reduced without the 'short barrel' mount, and the 34mm extension spacer.

With these, you will be fine. (in fact it wont work without the extension as it is a short barrel version only). All of this is to get around the problem I describe above.

It would be far better if Alpa redesigned with a bigger body aperture, but they won't, so we are stuck with extension plates on the rear and short barrels lenses on the front to move the camera body aperture up the lens light cone by 34mm, if you want to use any medium lens like a 90mm as a stitched moderate wide angle.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The Sinaron CEF 5.5/90 has an image circle of 140 giving you lateral shift capability of 20mm and vertical shift of 25mm on a 48x36mm chip - this is a non HR lens but plenty sharp. The Sinaron 5.6/135 CEF gives you an image circle of 150 but lateral shift of only 20mm and vertical of 22MM

the new(ish) 4.5/40 HR gives you an image circle of 90mm I dont have the exact shift specs for this.

These indicate that for longer lenses you are really better off with using MF glass on a 645 body - especially given the lesser ( if any) disparity in edge to edge performance.

same can't be said of wides in MF land compared to Rodenstock /Schneider wides - but then again MF wides give you leaf shutters and syncing flexibility at shutter speeds > than 1/500th - accuracy on copal shutter at limits is problematic anyway.

it really is a no brainer to go for an artec or similar for anything longer than 35mm in my book - and then if you have an artec you may as well use the extreme wides from rodenstock anyway as well...

this is suspect is why Alpa are to introduce this nifty new TC with inbuilt lateral movement - small package hand shootable and on tripod shiftable..

of course you already get the same thing with a 12SWA and Max - except the body is larger.

The new 12TC is appealing to me because of its small size - really nifty little travel kit - but certainly no substitute for a camera with inbulit focussing screen and loupe not to mention tilt and shfits..

I dont buy the Alpa argument that you cant build a sliding system which is accurate enough - I am more a buyer of the argument that no one builds any system accurate to perfection - thats why optimal apertures are advertised @ f8-11 anyway ..but thats another story.

put these on tripod and shoot tethered if you want perfect focus.

sorry I got a bit off topic.

but yeah I am a buyer of the new TC when it comes out - sign me up Paul -:)
 

Mike M

New member
The camera system is great....but there are a bunch of things that need to change about it...and if these changes occur...then it will be a totally different camera system altogether.

This type of thinking has gotta be given a name...I'm gonna call it "Michael Reichmann Syndrome" as an homage to his open letter to Leica: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/leica-open-letter.shtml

The M9 is great... but Leica needs to change all of this stuff about it...and if all of these changes occur....then it won't actually be an M anymore
 

micek

Member
The STC with a decentred 47mm XL would provide a very compact outfit providing both lateral shift + 8mm rise, or vice versa...
 
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Optechs Digital

Guest
The STC with a decentred 47mm XL would provide a very compact outfit providing both lateral shift + 8mm rise, or vice versa...
Finally getting some time to catch up on this and other threads.

Micek, Thanks! This is brilliant, I had not yet thought about this possibility with the STC. The 8mm de-centered lenses open up some more possibilities with this camera. Thanks for pointing it out.


Narikin

I am a little bit confused about what you are complaining about here. All of the normal to long Alpa lenses that have large enough image circles to be useful for stitching are all available in the short barrel lens mount. By using the Short barrel lens on the front of the camera and a 34mm spacer on the back of the camera photographers are able to utilize the large image circle that some of these lenses offer to do extraordinary stitches. Wether it be for landscape, copy, close up or scientific work many photographers are happily working with this system and producing stellar results .

By the way the 34mm fixed spacer can be substituted for the 12 degree tilt and swing adapter (also 34mm) for even more creative or precise possibilities. I really don't see too much to complain about with Alpa's approach.

Respectfully,
Paul Slotboom
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Paul any idea on the projected price of say the body only. My interest is up and love to try this thing out
 
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Optechs Digital

Guest
Paul any idea on the projected price of say the body only. My interest is up and love to try this thing out

Hi Guy,

I know what the target price point for the body is but I have given my word to Alpa to keep it confidential until they make the formal announcement for this and other new products. I believe the final prices will be announced at Photokina or shortly afterwards. So only one month to wait!!

Best,
Paul
 

narikin

New member
Paul: what I am seeking to illuminate about stitching with the Alpa system, that is kept somewhat under wraps (have you read this clearly explained elsewhere in honest terms?) is that is has its shortcomings with the narrow body aperture that requires you to use the 34mm spacer, and order short barrel versions of lenses, to get full stitching ability of medium focal length lenses.

oh, and that 34mm spacer is how much - $700 more, $800? - on top of very highly marked up lenses already. So to make up for a design shortfall, we have to spend $750 for an empty spacer box?!

ok - that is a complaint and worth making! Yes it is a good system, (I own 2 bodies) but not one without its compromises and weaknesses. It is worth people knowing of those clearly, and not thinking it is designed by Gods! :)
 
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Optechs Digital

Guest
Paul: what I am seeking to illuminate about stitching with the Alpa system, that is kept somewhat under wraps (have you read this clearly explained elsewhere in honest terms?) is that is has its shortcomings with the narrow body aperture that requires you to use the 34mm spacer, and order short barrel versions of lenses, to get full stitching ability of medium focal length lenses.

oh, and that 34mm spacer is how much - $700 more, $800? - on top of very highly marked up lenses already. So to make up for a design shortfall, we have to spend $750 for an empty spacer box?!

ok - that is a complaint and worth making! Yes it is a good system, (I own 2 bodies) but not one without its compromises and weaknesses. It is worth people knowing of those clearly, and not thinking it is designed by Gods! :)
Thanks for the reply Narikin,

I guess that our opinions differ in that I don't see any of this as a shortcoming or design flaw. I believe Alpa has developed a solution to a situation that occurs on cameras and is not exclusive to Alpa.

The spacer is extra expense, currently a little under $600.00. Not inexpensive but also not $700.00-$800.00 and only one is needed regardless of how many SB lenses one has.

Of course Alpa has compromises and weaknesses as you say, but what in life doesn't? Actually, I can think of a couple Northwest Micro-brews that are perfect with no compromise but that is a topic for a new thread that would require moderator approval...

Do you really want Alpa to design a whole new camera system that would be bigger and heavier with a new lens mount that would be bigger and heavier and would not work with your two existing Alpa bodies, just to fix a problem that in my opinion does not exist?

I will, however, cover this topic in complete straightforward detail and add it to my article on short barrel lenses that is on my site.

Thank you for this good dialogue.
Paul
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Of course Alpa has compromises and weaknesses as you say, but what in life doesn't? Actually, I can think of a couple Northwest Micro-brews that are perfect with no compromise but that is a topic for a new thread that would require moderator approval...
Thank you for this good dialogue.
Paul
Paul

For the non native people in this forum , can you please let me know , what you mean by : Northwest Micro-brews ? ? ? :)

BTW , all cameras have compromises and weaknesses . Even those fully electronic brands , who claim to be the best cameras in the world . Hahaha
I can very well live with the ALPA System , I love it and I am very much looking forward to learn about the new things coming up at PHOTOKINA .
Especially the STC and the precision sharpening devices .
I only regret , that I did not come across the ALPA earlier .

Jürgen
 
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Optechs Digital

Guest
Paul

For the non native people in this forum , can you please let me know , what you mean by : Northwest Micro-brews ? ? ? :)

BTW , all cameras have compromises and weaknesses . Even those fully electronic brands , who claim to be the best cameras in the world . Hahaha
I can very well live with the ALPA System , I love it and I am very much looking forward to learn about the new things coming up at PHOTOKINA .
Especially the STC and the precision sharpening devices .
I only regret , that I did not come across the ALPA earlier .

Jürgen
Hello Jurgen,

Northwest Micro Brew = BEER!!

Micro Brew just means a small brewery that produces relatively small quantity.

Northwest means that it is made in corner of the world in the great state of Washington.

I heard that the Germans know a little bit about beer too. ;)

I heard a rumor that Alpa is also producing a new line of beer. They promise that after you have a few it will swing, tilt and shift you, cause massive distortion and you will probably need some stitching at the end of the night. :bugeyes:

Have a great weekend,
Paul
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Thank you Paul and Steve for the nice explanation .
Hopefully Micro-brew does not mean Micro-drink .

I wanted to test my new SB 5,6/90 Digaron-W by tomorrow but we have rain , rain and rain again .

I wish you a nice weekend .

Regards Jürgen
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I wanted to test my new SB 5,6/90 Digaron-W by tomorrow but we have rain , rain and rain again .
Jurgen,

Funny enough I just got one of these yesterday and all it's done is rain here too! :ROTFL:

Btw, I see that Alpa actually has a listing of the new items at their site:
http://www.alpa.ch/en/news/2010/alpa-photokina2010-news.html?year=&num=

I find it kind of ironic that such a basic system now includes an iPod/iPhone holder :D I've been using the Viewfinder Pro iPhone app myself recently and it's excellent. It also makes for handy reference checks too, for example:
 
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narikin

New member
I wanted to test my new SB 5,6/90 Digaron-W by tomorrow but we have rain , rain and rain again .
my current obsession is with the Digaron-S line:

- amazing resolution by F5.6!
- 15 lens elements!
- F4.0!
- extremely low chromatic aberrations on the 60 and 100mm!

Unfortunately the price also needs a large "!" when its on an Alpa mount.

Don't get so obsessed with stitching that you forget a lens you can walk and take pictures without a tripod...
 
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jotloob

Subscriber Member
Jurgen,

Funny enough I just got one of these yesterday and all it's done is rain here too! :ROTFL:

Btw, I see that Alpa actually has a listing of the new items at their site:
http://www.alpa.ch/en/news/2010/alpa-photokina2010-news.html?year=&num=

I find it kind of ironic that such a basic system now includes an iPod/iPhone holder :D I've been using the Viewfinder Pro iPhone app myself recently and it's excellent. It also makes for handy reference checks too, for example:
Yesterday I have installed the VIEWFINDER PRO on my iPHONE .
It is a quite a nice tool , but i do not understand the wide angle adapter feature .
My expectations are , that the viewfinder pro serves me as a kind of pocket viewfinder and that I can easily decide , which of my lenses is the one I should mount . Fine , if no wide angle adapter factor is turned on
But if I use the wide angle factor for the DIGARON 28mm , for example , the frame for the 90 is now much smaller , but I now see the frame for the 28 mm lens . Now , what frame is true ? ? ?
Somehow , I do not understand the different frame sizes . I know , the frames are reduced by the factor , but am confused , which frame size is the correct one .
Sorry , I am unable to explain better , but still hope for an answer .
 
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