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Old "Newbie" Starting MF Research

David Schneider

New member
Short history is I've used C330, RB67, and especially Bronica erts and 6 lenses before I went 100% digital in 1998 or 99 with Kodak 520 ($12,500 at the time) and did youth sports and equestrian events for a few years. Last 8 years I've owned small portrait studio, about 150 seniors, families, an occasional wedding. I understand the shallow dof, and small sensor effects if not full frame, but, man, this mf digital is pretty confusing stuff, especially if on a budget.

I'd say in 6 months to a year I'd like to bring MF into the studio. I've missed that MF experience. I understand the swordsman is more important than the sword, but I have clients that have the same or better camera gear than my Canons.

Frankly, business is not exactly booming. Have to do more volume to have the same net while expenses keep increasing. I did get some nuggets of info from the Short Course thread (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18463). I'm not prepared to go for my lungs. ROI won't be great and this is partly for me and not just the bottom line.

So looking for mf that's at home on camera stand, but can jump on tripod and go outside the studio for outdoor senior work 2-5 times a day during senior season or go off to family session at their home or a park. Tethered won't work, cf cards seem best

OK, what I see is the Pentax 645D has promise, but no one, including Pentax, has any idea of when it will be available in the US. Specs seem fine for my use (although I don't know how to compare it's 14 bit to others 16 bit). Price point is in my ball park. Hassy H3DII-31 at $10K plus a couple of lenses (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/617782-REG/Hasselblad_70380560.html#reviews) seems like it would also work, especially since it might have higher ISO capabilities. I have no idea what good choices would be in the used market.

Any suggestions, reasons why one system might be better than another, comments, etc. are greatly appreciated.
 

symbolphoto

New member
I just recently went the H3DII-31 route. I'm very happy with my decision. You'll find that their lenses sell used about half of retail. Which makes things affordable.

From start to finish it's a great system using Phocus software. We shoot tethered a bit and it's been just perfect. (Macbook Pro) The camera feels good in our hands, it shoots well, the quality of the files, especially after running through Phocus is just perfection.

I really don't have a thing to complain about the system... all MF have flaws or characteristics, but Hasselblad's are rather easy to live with. That's my take at least.

If you use lights a lot, it'll be really handy to have the leaf shutter as opposed to the focal plane shutter, we can sync at 1/800th with strobes outdoors which gives an awesome look to some photos.

I have a few photos taken with mixed in here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
There a quite a few good used H3DII deals around at the moment. Writing as an H4D system user, I share the enthusiasm of symbolphoto for the Hassy system - ease of use, file quality, etc. A better bet than the untried and unavailable Pentax 645 in my view. You can't go wrong with the Hasselblad particulary if you can pick up a decent once used (or stretch to a new H4D-40 deal perhaps).

Quentin
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Short history is I've used C330, RB67, and especially Bronica erts and 6 lenses before I went 100% digital in 1998 or 99 with Kodak 520 ($12,500 at the time) and did youth sports and equestrian events for a few years. Last 8 years I've owned small portrait studio, about 150 seniors, families, an occasional wedding. I understand the shallow dof, and small sensor effects if not full frame, but, man, this mf digital is pretty confusing stuff, especially if on a budget.

I'd say in 6 months to a year I'd like to bring MF into the studio. I've missed that MF experience. I understand the swordsman is more important than the sword, but I have clients that have the same or better camera gear than my Canons.

Frankly, business is not exactly booming. Have to do more volume to have the same net while expenses keep increasing. I did get some nuggets of info from the Short Course thread (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18463). I'm not prepared to go for my lungs. ROI won't be great and this is partly for me and not just the bottom line.

So looking for mf that's at home on camera stand, but can jump on tripod and go outside the studio for outdoor senior work 2-5 times a day during senior season or go off to family session at their home or a park. Tethered won't work, cf cards seem best

OK, what I see is the Pentax 645D has promise, but no one, including Pentax, has any idea of when it will be available in the US. Specs seem fine for my use (although I don't know how to compare it's 14 bit to others 16 bit). Price point is in my ball park. Hassy H3DII-31 at $10K plus a couple of lenses (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/617782-REG/Hasselblad_70380560.html#reviews) seems like it would also work, especially since it might have higher ISO capabilities. I have no idea what good choices would be in the used market.

Any suggestions, reasons why one system might be better than another, comments, etc. are greatly appreciated.

Hi David:

By the description from your post, there is no question that for a $10K and below budget, the products you should consider would only be medium format models that utilize micro lenses. The micro lenses amplify the sensitivity by 2 - 3 stops from typical medium format digital backs. There are only 3 such products that would typically be found at $10K or below:

*H3D/H3DII-31
*P30/30+ & whatever camera you like (Phase/Mamiya 645, H1/H2, Contax, etc)
*P21/21+ & whatever camera you like (Phase/Mamiya 645, H1/H2, Contax, etc)

These products will give you some of that medium format renaissance feel, while still being versatile enough to shoot in variable lighting scenarios. It's a very simple formula when deciding whether you need to restrict yourself to these products (for your budget). Simply ask yourself the question - "Do I need/want to shoot at ISO 400 frequently?" If the answer is yes, then what I stated above will hold true.

If you follow this forum, you'll see there are many options available. I think it these products and how they compare. It's a big investment for you, you want it to be the right one, the one that fits you like a glove, not like a mitten.


Steve Hendrix
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Understand the ROI comment in spades David.

IMO, the best solution for the money right now is the H3D-II/31. Good deal new if they still have any, and even better used, if you can find a low use one.

I had this camera prior to the H4D/40 and can attest to its performance and versatility as a portrait and people camera (my application is weddings and engagement sessions as well as environmental portrait sessions). I especially like the HC/100/2.2 lens for people work. My preference is for a leaf shutter camera where all lenses offer high sync speeds because I do a lot of outdoor portraits using aux. lighting. Plus, I like using a waist level finder for some stuff.

But available light is also excellent, and ISO 800 or even 1600 is quite good especially since the improvements in both Phocus and Lightroom3 software.

The first 5 images shown here were done with the H3D-II/31:


http://www.fotografz.com/portrait-portfolio.html

-Marc
 

symbolphoto

New member
I agree with Marc entirely. He gave me some tips too ;)

I plan in the next year or so, if there is an enticing deal, to upgrade to the H4D-40. I'll be attending the FocusPoint here in Boston this week, so i'll finally have a chance to play with the H4D.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Also try the Phase system out the P30+ is basically the same sensor as the HD/31 but offers a different system. Not trying to sell either one but as always recommended by everyone try these things out before making any purchase. Never know what you like functionally, ergo's and software until you get your hands on them.
 

David Schneider

New member
I had four senior sessions yesterday. I went outside for a brief time on all them and in each case I bumped the ISO up to 320-400. As the days grow shorter, I'll probably be bumping it up to 800 in late afternoon. So ability to use higher ISO is a factor as is a camera system that's reasonably nibble.

For the newbie mf purchaser, lack of higher ISO is a major disappointment. The marketplace seems to be fueled by people like myself moving up to (or back to) mf and getting in at the "lower" price points, and those upgrading. So to this newbie, lack of good performance at 800-1200 ISO levels is a weakness. Obviously, not a problem in studio as have plenty of strobe power, although it is a factor when doing some family sessions on locations as will need to bring more strobes along in some form. And I do help a friend out with weddings a few times a year, but I guess just stay with 35mm style dslr for that work.
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Hi David:

By the description from your post, there is no question that for a $10K and below budget, the products you should consider would only be medium format models that utilize micro lenses. The micro lenses amplify the sensitivity by 2 - 3 stops from typical medium format digital backs. There are only 3 such products that would typically be found at $10K or below:

*H3D/H3DII-31
*P30/30+ & whatever camera you like (Phase/Mamiya 645, H1/H2, Contax, etc)
*P21/21+ & whatever camera you like (Phase/Mamiya 645, H1/H2, Contax, etc)

These products will give you some of that medium format renaissance feel, while still being versatile enough to shoot in variable lighting scenarios. It's a very simple formula when deciding whether you need to restrict yourself to these products (for your budget). Simply ask yourself the question - "Do I need/want to shoot at ISO 400 frequently?" If the answer is yes, then what I stated above will hold true.

If you follow this forum, you'll see there are many options available. I think it these products and how they compare. It's a big investment for you, you want it to be the right one, the one that fits you like a glove, not like a mitten.


Steve Hendrix
+1

Staying behind the leading edge by a couple-three years will get you good value, and you'll be significantly surprised at the quality out there. The need to keep an eye on the ISO is very important, probably a threshold in the decision process.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
P30+ and H31 are pretty darn good at ISO 800. But this takes some care as you want to be on the money with exposure and not be underexposed at all. Not sure on Phocus but in C1 the noise control is very good and need to find the right formula as well on the high ISO. I used ISO 800 a lot on the P30+ with great results.

I should add I think Phocus improved the high ISO to 800 but David can touch on that more effectively
 

David Schneider

New member
+1

Staying behind the leading edge by a couple-three years will get you good value, and you'll be significantly surprised at the quality out there. The need to keep an eye on the ISO is very important, probably a threshold in the decision process.
That's true. My first digital camera cost $12,500 and it dropped in price by $3,000 about 45 days after I bought it. Not making that mistake again. If I wasn't paying for part of an upcoming wedding I probably would have taken a chance on H3DII-31 with two lenses and some goodies on eBay that went for $8,700.

If the Pentax 645 ever shows up, it might be interesting to see it's higher ISO capabilities. Having dual card slots, longer life battery, good dust minimizing system and higher ISO are things newbies like me appreciate. On the other hand, looks like it's shutter life is 50,000 which is low compared to 35mm dlsr's (and I couldn't find info on estimated shutter life of H3dII-31 to know if that's good or bad compared to other mf bodies).
 

symbolphoto

New member
If I wasn't paying for part of an upcoming wedding I probably would have taken a chance on H3DII-31 with two lenses and some goodies on eBay that went for $8,700.
I'm paying for an upcoming wedding AND got the H3DII-31. I was in the dog house for a couple of days but things seem to have subsided.

Hey, you only live once. And hopefully only get married once. :ROTFL:

I'm sure the Pentax will be a great camera, but it's lacking certain features such as 16 bit processing and Leaf shutters for high sync speeds. That was a no-go for me.
 

David Schneider

New member
Hey, you only live once.
That's one of the reason's I plan to go mf again. I miss that feeling and want it back. Not sure it will do much for my business, but if it makes me feel good, that's better than a shrink or hookers. lol. Still, the wedding had to come first and my good friends at the IRS are having some words with me. Seems my former payroll company didn't forward them my withholding and now payroll company is bankrupt. And the good friends want their money.
 

symbolphoto

New member
That's one of the reason's I plan to go mf again. I miss that feeling and want it back. Not sure it will do much for my business, but if it makes me feel good, that's better than a shrink or hookers. lol. Still, the wedding had to come first and my good friends at the IRS are having some words with me. Seems my former payroll company didn't forward them my withholding and now payroll company is bankrupt. And the good friends want their money.
I hate the good friends. Well it can be a selling point to some customers, so you may want to use it for some stuff.
 

David Schneider

New member
I hate the good friends. Well it can be a selling point to some customers, so you may want to use it for some stuff.
You have that exactly right and that's what I plan to do. While I still believe it's the swordsman and not the sword, might as well brag about the sword. Professionals are having an increasingly difficult time differentiating themselves from those who produce sub-professional level images so a blurb that the camera I use can't be purchased at Best Buy will be there in marketing and in telephone conversations with clients. I've been to social gatherings and some who owns some kind of Canon Rebel say, "hey, we have the same camera" just because my camera says Canon on it.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have a complete Phase system and a Rebel system. They each have there place on my gigs. Just a FYI nothing can touch my Phase system and my clients know that. It pays HUGE dividends to educate your clients. They love my 40 mpx. LOL
 

symbolphoto

New member
I find that one of the best ways to differentiate yourself to your clients, especially portrait/wedding clients with this gear is to explain retouching. If you offer it.

If i have a larger canvas to start with, it allows me to retouch and keep texture and keep things looking natural. Nothing worse than a retouch which incorporates straight up blurring to hide blemishes.

MF allows one to start with a larger canvas and be able to retouch with less destruction in localized areas.

That's my take at least. And it's one i truly believe in. It's not a gimmick. We oftentimes deal with clients which require heavy retouching and this resolution gives me the room to make simple or drastic retouching.

.02
 

David Schneider

New member
I have a complete Phase system and a Rebel system. They each have there place on my gigs. Just a FYI nothing can touch my Phase system and my clients know that. It pays HUGE dividends to educate your clients. They love my 40 mpx. LOL
Guy,

If your clients are art directors and graphics people, it's a bit easier to educate them. If you clients are families, parents of high school seniors, weddings, etc., it's a constant marketing effort.

Agree on second system for appropriate market/occasion.
 

David Schneider

New member
I find that one of the best ways to differentiate yourself to your clients, especially portrait/wedding clients with this gear is to explain retouching. If you offer it.
My thought is for those kind of clients it's easier for them to under the comparison between apples and apples rather than apples to oranges. Easier for them to compare cameras to cameras rather than cameras to retouching. My experience is a clear, easy to understand marketing message is most effective. However, if your client workflow is to have a face to face consultation before portrait session or wedding there's time for the retouching benefit of mf. And that conversation does set you up as an expert in advance photography and clients like that. In those situations, it's an idea I'll have to remember.

For my seniors, it's a telephone conversation at time they book session and they are generally sold or they wouldn't call. For family portraits your message might work, but it's still easier for them to relate a small format to a small print and a larger format to a larger print.

As for retouching, it's something we stress, have a bit of a reputation for, and it's a profit center as there's a separate charge for every senior we photograph.
 
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