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Thread: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Well got back late last night and processed these on the plane, yes i had a crowd of folks over my shoulder watching me process and of course it was like being at a workshop teaching folks how to do this stuff. Loved it. LOL

    Anyway I actually did pretty good on the laptop so some details these are all shot with the P30 plus Phase back. Shot at ISO 400 no flash at all , all natural light but I was on a on a tripod for everyone of these. These shots are the result of Jack and i hiring 2 models for the workshop for the attendees to shoot . What you don't see is obviously 10 folks blasting away shooting along with me. From M8, D300 , D3, Mamiya ZD all capturing this teaching event we put on. I gave a lighting seminar before we started and just imagine teaching lighting without lights. LOL It actually went extremely well with regards to fill and main and such . But obviously a lighting workshop needs to be done. Anyway let's chat about the P30 plus. This bad boy is something else . Later on i will show you at ISO 1600 there is not a damn thing to sneeze at with regards to noise. If processed in the newer C1 version 4 the images are as clean as any D3 or 1dsMKII or III version at ISO 1600 . Yes folks this one took me for a surprise and as you see ISO 400 is just outstanding. I really like this back and been actually torn on it between the P25 plus but i am going with the P25 plus for the simple tilt/shift issue with backs and micro prism. Besides i am buying a Horseman SWD II with 35mm digitar also in my package with Capture Intergration. I only shot the P25 non plus but even ISO 400 looked good i AM expecting a ISO 400 to look like these with the Plus series. So my guess is I should be just fine. Also the P30 plus is a crop sensor which honestly even without the mask in camera i did not even notice it.

    Anyway let me post a few images from it and later when i wake up i will get into some noise stuff with this back.I should mention in LR the noise was really good but C1 is really fine tuned to these backs and the files looked much better in regard to noise without smearing at the default levels. Again very impressed here. One other thing that COMPLETELY impressed me with the Phase backs is they just freaking work. There simple to use and not one glitch I ran into all week and this was with all three different backs. I even used the same card at one point and no issues. I can't talk about this enough because the last thing I needed when shooting this series was a screw up and screwing around with the camera back deal. I am a shooter not a engineer and I just want to shoot.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    One more before I unpack everything
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    I just love this shot with the folks in the background walking up the street. It was getting late and the light was falling pretty fast , I missed focus a touch but image is first. One thing about MF is it needs LIGHT. LOL

    This is the main reason I want a great ISO 400 because you really lose 2 stops over 35mm in DOF. This was the 150 3.4 lens at 5.6 but I may get the new 150mm 2.8 later on after I recover from this LARGE check I have to write. But I am serious I always loved MF and it is nice to get back to my roots
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    These street scenes are in between traffic. So this was a very fast shoot for everyone which is excellent training for them.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Guy when we were looking through these in SJ. The one with the workers coming up the street was my favorite.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    I have to find that one Terry. Did anyone take a shot of the whole street scene I wonder . Love to show that to the forum it would be a pretty fun shot to see.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Would be interesting to see some RAW files, Guy, especially at ISO 800 and 1600

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I have to find that one Terry. Did anyone take a shot of the whole street scene I wonder . Love to show that to the forum it would be a pretty fun shot to see.
    I'm talking about the one you just posted with the models in the street and the women in uniform looking at what is going on.

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    Subscriber Member KurtKamka's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Guy, on your deliberations between the P25+ and P30+ backs, do you have any thoughts about the size of the sensor? I can see where it'd be an interesting decision. The P25+ has the bigger pixels ... but, if the noise works out to be almost as good as the P30+, the P25+ might be the better choice.

    Also, were these hand-held?

    Kurt

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Kurt I was on a tripod. You make a excellent point and my thoughts are the P25 plus has better DR than both the P45 and P30 it is slight but it holds the highlights better. Now the P25 Plus was not with us so hard to truly say but I hope to get it late this week. But my thinking is if I can squeeze a great ISO 400 than I am really happy and ISO 800 even comes close to the P30 Plus at 1600 than i scored big. The P30 plus has a 1 stop advantage so if it is great at 1600 for the P30 plus than my thinking is the P25 plus at the top end should match it at it's highest ISO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Kurt my other thoughts are this, a P25 plus and a D3 maybe the winning combo. That damn D3 at the real high ISO is something else and a great way to maximize almost any shoot. I am heading down this road myself. I do lot's of events so the D3 would be perfect and the MF will do everything else. It's a tough call between these two backs but I don't always know were life leads so having that Horseman to use as a stitch camera and shift camera is very appealing to me and main reason to go P25 plus. Now it is a 22 mpx back so you have to be happy with the resolution but these files have a load of uprezing in them so i am not worried for a second it can do BIG. But seriously if anyone wants a Phase back you better like C1 because you will get the most out of it using C1 with the lens corrections and the way Phase tunes there software for there backs.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Here Terry I think you meant this one. I need to get offline too and see my family and unpack . Check in later folks. Need to make up for missing my wife's 50th BD. BTW this is straight from the camera in ACR. NO WB
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Would be interesting to see some RAW files, Guy, especially at ISO 800 and 1600
    Yes i will do that tomorrow and post a series on noise also
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Guy, besides the strong C1 tie-in with the phase back, what difference are you seeing in files between the P25 and P30+ and those you've taken previously with the ZD back?

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    There all very similar. The ZD I found the details in the highlights were not as good as the Phase and maybe a touch more detail in the Phase but speed and functionality go to Phase although the Zd is nothing to sneeze at the higher ISO is just not there like the Phase but for the money a damn good back and that made this upgrade path tougher . I am really buying higher ISO and functionality and a more complete systems setup. I can't emphasize the relationship between camera, back and software enough. You need a working system in total.
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Guy, on your deliberations between the P25+ and P30+ backs, do you have any thoughts about the size of the sensor? I can see where it'd be an interesting decision. The P25+ has the bigger pixels ... but, if the noise works out to be almost as good as the P30+, the P25+ might be the better choice.

    Also, were these hand-held?

    Kurt

    Go to the Phase site and look at the crop factors and aspect ratios on the backs . i like the FF more on the P25 compared to the aspect ration of the P30 but this is presonal choice
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Guy et al,

    Do you feel that the ZD is still a good point of entry (to MF digital) if one is weighing a Canon 1Ds3 purchase? Prior to a few months ago I was just planning to get the 1Ds3, but after having shot it I find the image upgrade to be insufficient. In my case, I expect that I'll end up with something like the P45+ because I like large prints – and I do zero commercial, fashion, or event work.

    So now that you've compared the various backs, and if one was prepared to spend just 10K or so for now (excluding additional lenses), how do you feel about the ZD back on, say, the new 645 AFD III? Or do you recommend skipping the ZD back going with a used back of another breed for the use I've described?

    (Sorry if this is sort off topic. I thought it sort of fit in, but I'd be happy to post the question elsewhere if you'd prefer.)

    Thanks, Dale

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Honestly just going to MF will beat any DSLR out there and the ZD certainly will do that no question. The old saying bigger is better still holds true. The ZD is slow though and have to deal with that but it is a good back. i would expect to see more of the ZD in the future as a upgraded unit too. There certainly is a place in the market for it but if you want large than the 39 mpx backs are something else. The P45 plus did have more micro detail than the 25 and 30 it was there for sure. But it's beyond entry point as far as money. Big expense but I think 22mpx are really nice from all the players and I know I can get nice big prints from them. After awhile you start choking your machine too, 16 bit P45 file is 228 mgs. LOL

    P30 is about 180
    P25 is 128

    So your already in big. I see the 1DSMKIII not much better than what it replaced , it's there but you start adding it all up with Canon than think MF and the Mamiya with lenses it is pretty darn close.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    I'd like to underscore the importance of higher ISO shooting that Guy mentioned above. At the risk of repeating what's already been said, the DOF on MF is really shallow... even at f/5.6 it's pretty easy to miss the point of focus. I've found that f/11 is where I like to shoot and at ISO 100 you can forget hand-held shots (at least I can forget them). The rule of thumb that many of us use when shooting 35mm, i.e. shooting at 1/focal length of the lens does not apply to MF. You can double that (at least) so if you're shooting a 110 mm lens you're going to want that shutter speed at 1/250th for hand-held. A good, clean ISO 400 file makes a world of difference in what and how you can shoot.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    I agree David i would not be buying anything unless ISO 400 was very clean, sometimes you just need it and rather no be caught with my pants down as they say. For studio work a different story altogether or if you have a lot a light which these backs scream feed me. For a shooter like me that does a lot of different work I find this real important. Landscape shooters most likely will never get the ISO off of 50 so depends on what you do.
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Guy, thank you. Your conclusion is what is bubbling to the surface for me too.

    In my case, I have Canon gear, so the 1Ds3 is cheapest, but it doesn't get me much. The P45+ (and even the next lower tier) are too much expense for me right now. And when I say "I like large prints" I'm only talking about looking for good results at 24x36" to 30x40", not huge.

    For now, 22MP will be the entry point for me. I just need to weigh the ZD against something used by one of the other makers. Mamiya is really doing something great in my opinion, to be giving access to MF to those of us who can't or won't drop $30K or $40K into it yet. That said, I guess one should consider the upgrade paths of each maker as well, if the long-term goal will include a higher model back in their line later.

    Thank you.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    I will post some files tomorrow for everyone to process these . I think from my point of view 22mpx backs are the perfect balance between over the DSLR and still at a great value versus performance price. Just be careful of used . In Aptus you will want the S models and Phase you really want the Plus series for that extra ISO stop
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Thanks for adding this, David. It makes sense and is important to keep in mind.

    Sorry to have missed it at first. We're all cross-posting it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I'd like to underscore the importance of higher ISO shooting that Guy mentioned above. At the risk of repeating what's already been said, the DOF on MF is really shallow... even at f/5.6 it's pretty easy to miss the point of focus. I've found that f/11 is where I like to shoot and at ISO 100 you can forget hand-held shots (at least I can forget them). The rule of thumb that many of us use when shooting 35mm, i.e. shooting at 1/focal length of the lens does not apply to MF. You can double that (at least) so if you're shooting a 110 mm lens you're going to want that shutter speed at 1/250th for hand-held. A good, clean ISO 400 file makes a world of difference in what and how you can shoot.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Just to give you a slight idea of the resolving power and sharpness of this back , the P25 S is in the same league here and the 45 will even do better. The bad news is i am better than a brick wall for any of these detail tests. my wrinkles are far better than any wall test. LOL

    Full image
    Unsharpened
    Sharpened slightly
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Guy,

    Many of us are becoming "certified resolution test targets" with each passing year (or is that month?)

    This looks great right out of the camera. It must be so nice to work without a strong AA filter. How do you feel the ZD compares to this? I know that you said it slips on the highlights a bit, but do find a huge difference in details of images which are not pushing the DR to the max?

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    I didn't shoot Guy with the ZD, but here's a statue I shot with it. 55 AF lens, so not the best, but an idea:
    Jack
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Thanks, Jack. Is this sharpened or straight from the camera? It looks rather good, but a tough one for peepin'.

    I don't expect the ZD back to give the performance of the P1 or other, more expensive backs. Just trying to gauge if one should skip the ZD and step up, even if it means needing to wait a bit. I'll try to get somewhere where I can shoot the ZD on an AFD II and then the same scene with a P1 or other make, so that only the back is the variable. Guess I'll need to head down to the Bay Area...

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    How long have the Phase + backs been on the market? I'm curious as to whether anything new that could potentially be introduced at Photokina might impact used prices of the backs going into fall.

    Kurt

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    It's a great question Kurt and something I thought about also. There will always be something new. My bet you may see a ZD back before anyone else since there sort of due for a update. As far as detail and such between the 22 mpx backs , i would say there so close it is not something to stress over . There all the 9 micron style from what i know between them. The Plus on the Phase i believe is relatively new. Chris or Lance from CI maybe able to help here and explain there backs better than i can.
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    There is some noticeable texture / grain pattern in the sky of Jack's statue closeup at ISO 200.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    How long have the Phase + backs been on the market? I'm curious as to whether anything new that could potentially be introduced at Photokina might impact used prices of the backs going into fall.

    Kurt
    Kurt,

    The P+ series have been out for about a year now, but you can still get some great deals on the non P+ backs. I'd be glad to talk to you about the P+ or non P+ Phase One backs.

    I wish I had a crystal ball or a good idea of what was being released at Photokina this year, but I don't. Guy is correct that there will always be something new, but you can't go wrong with a new or used Phase One back.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    There is some noticeable texture / grain pattern in the sky of Jack's statue closeup at ISO 200.
    I noticed the same thing and wondered if was a compression issue since there seemed to be plenty of light otherwise. Having 'peeped some of the other ZD files, many of them were quite clean.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Thanks, Jack. Is this sharpened or straight from the camera? It looks rather good, but a tough one for peepin'.

    I don't expect the ZD back to give the performance of the P1 or other, more expensive backs. Just trying to gauge if one should skip the ZD and step up, even if it means needing to wait a bit. I'll try to get somewhere where I can shoot the ZD on an AFD II and then the same scene with a P1 or other make, so that only the back is the variable. Guess I'll need to head down to the Bay Area...
    That has a light sharpening pass, but I posted an unsharpened crop below. I was using ISO 200 because I was hand-holding, and the thing we all learned is how much a tripod helps with MF detail -- it's the main reason Guy wants clean ISO 400. I did not run any NR and for my uses I can live with that level of noise. On the ZD, ISO 50 AND 100 are very clean, 200 is what you see, and 400 is pretty noisy.

    Here is the same area, no sharpening, just as it comes off the camera out of ACR:
    Jack
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Thank you, Jack.

    All of this information is very helpful to those of us (at least me) who haven't spent time with these cameras/backs.

    I can fully understand Guy's need for the higher ISO capabilities. I'll be wrestling with whether I can afford (or justify) starting out with a back which is better at higher ISOs, or if I should just get my feet wet with a less expensive solution.

    Thanks for all this help, guys.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Since I don't do a lot of studio work, I'm most interested in the high ISO capability of the P30+. I'd want to use it handheld as the mother of all walkarounds and for events etc., with minimal if any flash. (I like to do things differently than most ... it's a swimming upstream thing.)

    Guy, whenever you are able to dig one out, I'm dying to see what ISO 800 and 1600 look like on the P30+.

    All of your comments have been great.

    Kurt

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Here is a detail crop of another image to help show detail from the ZD, a 4 second tripod exposure, f11, ISO 50 and it was drizzling when I took this...

    The full image:


    The detail crop:
    Jack
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  37. #37
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Since I don't do a lot of studio work, I'm most interested in the high ISO capability of the P30+. I'd want to use it handheld as the mother of all walkarounds and for events etc., with minimal if any flash. (I like to do things differently than most ... it's a swimming upstream thing.)

    Guy, whenever you are able to dig one out, I'm dying to see what ISO 800 and 1600 look like on the P30+.

    All of your comments have been great.

    Kurt
    Will be on it tomorrow, have to get ready for my wife's 50th BD dinner
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Will be on it tomorrow, have to get ready for my wife's 50th BD dinner

    No problem, Guy. I'm certain that all of us here wish Mrs. Guy a happy birthday.

    Kurt

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Sorry, Jack.
    I'm not picking on your ZD, always calling it as I see it.
    The noise under the rocks at 1, 4 & 9 o' clock is not good, especially at ISO 50.

  40. #40
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    As a person who didnt think too much about light intensity when shooting 35mm digi, I find myself now thinking as much about how much light as well as quality of light when using my MFD backs. Not enough light is a totally different issue to quality of light.

    In the end, one has to use a tripod if the quality of light playing on a scene (ala jack's shot above) makes a shot worthwhile even though intensity of light is lacking. SO you get your tripod out , think about the compromises that have to be made between extreme shadows in the nooks and crannies versus beautiful dancing highlights off glistening wet leaves and make a long exposure at low ISO.

    For this reason, I don't get too excited about so called high ISO in MFD backs..the less light you feed these backs the less impressive the image IQ.

    [ btw - as an aside - the ONLY difference between a Leaf 75 and a 75s (that I know of ) is shooting speed - again a 35mm land preoccupation.. Telling people who may be interested in image quality that "you dont' want" a non s back from Leaf - and I hear this a lot - makes me scratch my head. I must have missed something not related to image IQ when happily using the non 's' version. ]

    A high ISO MFD back which shoots multiple frames per second is an answer to a problem that doesn't exist ..for anyone except a fashion shooter ..and then the difference between a frame every .8 seconds versus 9 frames a second..is a LOT bigger than .8 versus 1.4 frames a second... LOL

    just my thoughts .

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    For the portrait photographer as well, the difference between waiting 1.1 seconds or 1.5 seconds for the ready beep is an eternity.

  42. #42
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    For this reason, I don't get too excited about so called high ISO in MFD backs..the less light you feed these backs the less impressive the image IQ.
    Have you seen this thread? http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683

    I just compared the noise with an ISO 800 sample from a Canon 40D available on dpreview.com. The Sinar back is better if anything.

    Also, bear in mind when comparing noise that you should downsample the higher resolution back down to the resolution of the other back because downsampling actually helps to remove noise, so by the time you compare a 10MP image from a Canon with a downsampled image from the MFDB, the MFDB will probably be well ahead. (I just tried it and there was no comparison). No longer is high ISO such an achilles heel of the MFDB. Of course it would always be nice to see further improvements.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Well I would describe the difference between .8 of a second and 9 frames a second even more of an eternity !!..LOL do teh math..Mind you, on 'portrait' photography, I must shoot differently, as the LAST thing I care about is frame speed..

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    For the portrait photographer as well, the difference between waiting 1.1 seconds or 1.5 seconds for the ready beep is an eternity.
    Yes I read that thread thanks Graham, it didnt change my mind at all - and if anything reinforced my thinking about ISO and IQ. Mind you I am not familiar with the IQ of a Canon 40D - so maybe I need to do some catch-up research - I am grateful my Hasselblad shots dont LOOK like the canon ger I sold off! LOL

    i think we all have to recognize the limitations of internet based pixel peeping - how 100% crops translate to real world printing and presenting is an interesting subject all is own.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Mind you, on 'portrait' photography, I must shoot differently, as the LAST thing I care about is frame speed..
    We all work differently.
    My point is the digital back has to be ready when the photographer WANTS to press the shutter release.
    I'm not advocating 50 captures per minute, but sometimes that's necessary depending on the subject and circumstances.

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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    sure - buy what works !


    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    We all work differently.
    My point is the digital back has to be ready when the photographer wants to press the shutter release.
    I'm not advocating 50 captures per minute, but sometimes that's necessary depending on the subject and circumstances.

  46. #46
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Jack,
    Am I seeing red and green chroma blobs in the hair behind the ears on your statue sample crop? Or did I just have too much wine with dinner?
    Eric

  47. #47
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Well here is some noise shots the first series is at C1 defaults on noise. Which is Luminance at 25 and Color at 43 . This first series is at 1600 , I am still playing around to find the happy spot and they do have some noise but with a slight adjustment in noise they come up very clean and for 1600 I think pretty darn good without smearing. The adjusted noise is at Luminance 43 and color at 67. Now my settings maybe too much too little but they look pretty good to me

    First the straight 1600 FF than a crop
    Than next two with noise adjustment
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  48. #48
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Same thing but this time at ISO 800

    First the straight 800 FF than a crop
    Than next two with noise adjustment
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #49
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    I think ISO 800 is really damn good myself and 1600 maybe done in NN or another noise program could even be better but watching the deep shadows in the back and the door frame it cleans up fairly well indeed. The P 25 did good to ISO 400 but this was not the Plus series which adds another stop to it. So I am expecting ISO 400 on the P25s to be really good. I will test that when I get my back hopefully this week
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase P30 Plus in San Juan

    Now here is another ISO 800 shot no adjustments that is awesome with noise
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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