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Thread: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

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    Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    I'm getting close to trying out the Hy6 and 54. I'd like to hear what people think of this choice.

    I shoot almost exclusively outdoors, landscapes and nature.

    Before I bought my 6008i, I bought a Hasselblad manual, I think a 503. I returned it for the Rollei because I couldn't stand the ergonomics. I think the 6008 is great. For this reason, Hassie's closed system, plus I have 2 Rollei lenses, and a 45 degree prism, I'm prejudiced against Hassie, and so haven't really researched their possibilities.

    If I bought the 54LV by itself the adaptor for the 6008 is about $2500 so I think it makes sense to put that money towards the Hy6.

    Leaf seems out because the screen doesn't do well in outdoor light, and the back is less flexible to use on other cameras.

    It seems like the 54 Lv with 22 pix and 9 micron pixels is great for all but the largest blowups.

    Do you think the Focus Trap on the Hy6, could be fast enough to catch small birds in flight from 3 feet?

    Am I missing something in my thinking?

    I wish the Sinar was black, and better looking.

    Appreciate any help.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Before you buy, make sure you talk to David Kipper on this forum at length. He has one and his experience has not been all roses and lollipops...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    When it comes to things like ergonomics, only you can be the judge. Just try it.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Before you buy, make sure you talk to David Kipper on this forum at length. He has one and his experience has not been all roses and lollipops...
    Unfortunately I have to second this comment.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    thsinar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Jack,

    I think David has an eMotion 75.

    Experiences with a new tool/DB are not often "roses" and "lollipops" at the beginning: there is a learning curve.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Before you buy, make sure you talk to David Kipper on this forum at length. He has one and his experience has not been all roses and lollipops...

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Thierry he has some real issues . You should speak to him offline.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Thanks for the response. I sent a Private Message to David K so I hope to hear what his story is. On the Forum so far he seems to be positive about the Hy6.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Don't confuse positive feelings toward the camera design and glass performance with positive feelings toward the usability of the entire system as a digital capture platform...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    While not about the Hy6, I hated my rollei 6008/p20 when I first got it - had some minor issues - bad focusing screen and the back I bought second hand (from a forum member here) had a mount problem where it would not fit up tightly. The biggest problem was making the shift to a new camera format - or in other words user error. But now I love it, am consistently pleased with the results.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    I've had a number of private messages inquiring about the issues I've had with my Hy6/75LV kit and have asked for a day or so to respond. I'd like to hear back from Thierry and my Sinar rep so that i can provide a complete story. Many, but not all, of the issues are learning curve related.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Sorry to hear about your system's teething problems David. Hope they are all ironed out soon.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Thanks Peter, I am quite certain they will be. I can tell you that I am amazed at the level of concern expressed by the Sinar folks. Emails are circling the globe and phone calls from the very highest levels have been made to my rep to make sure these issues are being addressed. One thing I can tell you for sure is that these folks care and, even though that's the way it should be, it isn't always the case. The power of the internet is simply amazing.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    I have recently purchased a Hy6 as well,however not had a chance to give it a big work-out.
    The main reason for this is that I have send my e-75LV to Sinar for the upgrade.
    (Larger screen and rotating adapter)
    I've also been in contact with David Kippel and I'm looking forward about the current issues.
    Regards,
    Willem.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Take a look at the Contax 645 and a Phase back.

    From what I can see, the Hy6 syetm is expensive, large, cumbersome and provides little advantage over the Contax.

    If you are hell bent on leaf shutters or need synch speeds over 125, by all means pursue.

    If not,

    The Hasselblad is also very expensive, a closed system and has flaky software.

    But hey, just my oppinion after looking at these for some time.

    I cannot comment on handling. However, the files from both seem no better than the Contax,
    the contax glass is great, and the performance of the Phase is as good as any.

    Victor

    PS: OK, you could also go for the Mamiya; but you won't get the glass!

    :-)

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Victor I'm telling ya the Mamiya glass is nothing to sneeze at. LOL Watch the P30 and P25 threads . The New D stuff is really going to be great and i don't have any yet but pretty impressed by the resolving power of the lenses I have have today.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    I'm noy going to disparage the M glass. But many have put their vote on Contax and Hasselblad (which can go on the Mamiya as well)
    However, why not just get the one that comes from Zeiss? no talk, just do.

    Here's a Contax/Phase 'snap
    easy as you please, autofocus, right out of C1 NO processing. just resized to 950 and save in sRGB 8bit jpg

    I got a million of 'em!

    But seriously. I have looked hard, and sure I am sure M can be at times as good (but LL votes still say 'not as good as') so maybe Mamiya needs to play Avis .. Not going to knock it (but the 28mm ain't that good accoeding to some.)

    Here's the 35mm, just really a piece of CAKE to use this. Hell, with the autofocus, and AE this was practically point and shoot I trekked all over france with this sucker. Never even thought about it. Yes it weighs 4lbs-5lbs with the 80/2.0 (YES 2.0!) or the 35mm (used here)

    if you want to capture images, and operate as a photographer, rather than worrying about pre, post and during, get yourself this combo. I habe had for 4 years (and narry a failure, with either, touch wood, 3 backs and 2 cameras and 7 lenses.

    Now, THAT's quality!

    see the pix too. IQ is great (I am not as a photog)

    Victor

    PS: if you want, I'll send you the raw file and you can see for yourself. I use a pair on 30" screens--jeez, at times, even at 'actual size' (about 70" by 50"I at 100 pixwla /inch) feel I could just walk into the sceen!
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:22.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    BTW, this is what does it (except the phase back is actually a bit trimmer!)
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:23.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    and as Michael Reichman says

    "Cheap as borscht!"


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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    As a current owner of a Jenoptik (Sinar) back, I can state with a certainty that they do not only care, they will see David's problems are all resolved. Whatever the cause, be it a hardware problem or a learning curve problem. Sinar only wants satisfied customers, from my own personal experience the past five years I have owned one of their products.

    Now, if it were one of the others I have had the misfortune to own, I would have to say that manufacturer could sure go a long way further in the customer satisfaction department.

    I can also echo Guy's statement about Lance, and the other great folks at Capture Integration. I know personally several people who have bought from them, and have all always been treated most excellently. I'm proud to say that Lance and Dave are both friends of mine.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    "Do you think the Focus Trap on the Hy6, could be fast enough to catch small birds in flight from 3 feet?"

    I think if you are interested in photographing birds in flight at 3 feet, medium format digital (or film) is not the way to go. Do you really need to blow up the photo over 30 inches wide? Because you can get great quality below that size with the current crop of pro digital SLR's...you will also get more depth of field, faster shutters, better autofocus, more lens selection, vastly better ISO performance, and a total system price that is a small fraction of the medium format digital body alone. If you have other plans for the system, then other reasoning applies, but for fast action nature photography, it does not seem like a good choice.

    By the way, I am a 6008AF user, and I wound up deciding to stick with film for medium format and use a D3 for digital. I am very happy with my decision. I am happy to continue doing fine art type work in film, and I don't do enough commercial work to justify a MF digital back, so the D3 is a good solution for me. Had I gone for a medium format back, I probably would have gone for Leaf. As tempting as Sinar is, everyone I have spoken to in the US has steered me away from it for varying reasons, and I think that you have to be pretty brave or pretty rich to put down 15,000+ on a camera system that is not a sure thing. No offense to Thierry -- I do think Sinar has great products, but their support structure in the US is a source of concern for their own dealers, and that simply can't be good. Surely, others have different experiences, but this is what I gathered from speaking to several dealers in the US, and demoing the camera.
    Last edited by Stuart Richardson; 19th May 2008 at 21:28.

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Victor I like buying new stuff - where can I buy a new Contax camera and lens system? Can I use my outstanding HC glass on this new Contax system? or is the Contax system a closed system?

    Pete

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post

    Now, THAT's quality!

    see the pix too. IQ is great (I am not as a photog)
    Victor, for "THAT quality" it looks pretty bright and warm out to be snowing in France...

    ,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  23. #23
    thsinar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Thanks Chuck, to testify that we (Sinar and its distributors) care for our customers.

    David's issues are already taken care of, of course. We never leave a customer alone, even if sometimes the response and addressing the issue isn't as fast as expected.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    As a current owner of a Jenoptik (Sinar) back, I can state with a certainty that they do not only care, they will see David's problems are all resolved. Whatever the cause, be it a hardware problem or a learning curve problem. Sinar only wants satisfied customers, from my own personal experience the past five years I have owned one of their products.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Always glad to support the manufacturers who have supported me Thierry. Now, we just need to get Sinar Bron, Inc. over here up to snuff so that problems such as these get resolved by someone here in the USA, and not have to be helped along from as far away as Thailand. <Grin>. But many thanks for helping my good friend David.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Victor I like buying new stuff - where can I buy a new Contax camera and lens system? Can I use my outstanding HC glass on this new Contax system? or is the Contax system a closed system?

    Pete
    Pete, I know of at least two different places you can actually still buy a new Contax 645 system. And yes, I would imagine with one of Son's adapters you could also use your HC glass on it, believe it or not. The camera is a dead system, no question about it. One that was widely sold, used in every rental department, and is built like a proverbial tank as far as reliability goes. In it's day, it was by far the most flexible system made, with an excellent set of usable glass. And to it's credit, my two are still working now several years later without a hiccup. Those of us who use them today swear by them, and for a reason.

  26. #26
    thsinar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Yes, Chuck, you're right. I am actually in Malaysia, right now!



    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Always glad to support the manufacturers who have supported me Thierry. Now, we just need to get Sinar Bron, Inc. over here up to snuff so that problems such as these get resolved by someone here in the USA, and not have to be helped along from as far away as Thailand. <Grin>. But many thanks for helping my good friend David.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Yes, Chuck, you're right. I am actually in Malaysia, right now!



    Thierry
    Whew, the heat this time of year over there must be miserable. Almost makes Florida seem tolerable Oh, and say hello to Ton Santipong next time you drop buy from me. I still want to get over there one of these days soon. Maybe for my honeymoon when Suzanne and I get married. She has been, I haven't yet, but hear it is one of the most beautiful places in the world. One that is very much on my must see list of places...

  28. #28
    thsinar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    oh, you know Ton?! He is a very good friend of mine. Just have been in touch 2 weks ago. But he is out of BKK most of the time those last months. He is more in the north (Chiang Mai).
    As soon as you've decided to come and visit this place, please contact me: you are welcome at my place anytime, if I'm in town (but that can be organized).

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Whew, the heat this time of year over there must be miserable. Almost makes Florida seem tolerable Oh, and say hello to Ton Santipong next time you drop buy from me. I still want to get over there one of these days soon. Maybe for my honeymoon when Suzanne and I get married. She has been, I haven't yet, but hear it is one of the most beautiful places in the world. One that is very much on my must see list of places...

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    oh, you know Ton?! He is a very good friend of mine. Just have been in touch 2 weks ago. But he is out of BKK most of the time those last months. He is more in the north (Chiang Mai).
    As soon as you've decided to come and visit this place, please contact me: you are welcome at my place anytime, if I'm in town (but that can be organized).

    Thierry
    Ton and I share a passion for beautiful photographic images, MF digital backs, and some of the weird but magical contraptions to capture those images with Over several years. But have yet to actually meet face to face. The online world has blessed me with more photographer friends all over the globe than any one man has a right to have. About half of them I have met in person, the other half still on my agenda to meet one of these days before I die, God willing and the creek don't rise And I will take you up on your offer when we get over there. Likely around December if I am lucky. Thank you for the offer!

  30. #30
    thsinar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    ... Then try to make it before mid of December, since thereafter I am usually in Europe, visiting my family, for Christmas celebration.

    You're welcome and it's my pleasure.

    Thierry

    Addendum: I'll then make sure that Ton is in Bangkok and that we can met all the 3 (4 with your wife!) together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    And I will take you up on your offer when we get over there. Likely around December if I am lucky. Thank you for the offer!

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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Pete, I know of at least two different places you can actually still buy a new Contax 645 system. And yes, I would imagine with one of Son's adapters you could also use your HC glass on it, believe it or not. The camera is a dead system, no question about it. One that was widely sold, used in every rental department, and is built like a proverbial tank as far as reliability goes. In it's day, it was by far the most flexible system made, with an excellent set of usable glass. And to it's credit, my two are still working now several years later without a hiccup. Those of us who use them today swear by them, and for a reason.
    Chuck - I have to admit being a bit tongue in cheek regarding my response to Victor i have just finished using a complete Contax system with a Phase One back for about a month. I have to say that there are many aspects of this camera system which appeal to me - most especially is the relatively quiet shutter! The lenses are a mixed bag in terms of quality - my favourites being the 45mm and the 80.

    It is a great shame teh company is no longer making them - i Must say I have a personal gripe about the battery gobbling capability of this camera though..and autofocus isnt as good as on other ( newer?) systems I am using..

    hmm

    interesting that one can still buy these things new.does that include the lenses and acessories? I would be interested to know

    Thanks
    Pete

  32. #32
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Victor, for "THAT quality" it looks pretty bright and warm out to be snowing in France...

    ,
    You referring to all that nasty noise in the dark upper left area of the crop, or the dandruff you can see in the guy's haiR?


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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Victor I like buying new stuff - where can I buy a new Contax camera and lens system? Can I use my outstanding HC glass on this new Contax system? or is the Contax system a closed system?

    Pete
    Well certainly not to the extent of a new Hasselblad, but as Chuck says, lots of NIB and LNIB.

    As for lenses, yes a mixed bag-but so are all lines. I find the 210mm the least successful, but others use the mutar 1.4x and say it actually improves.

    my take:
    (and I have them all)

    35mm really great all around WA, a little soft in extreme corners at wide open (I then use the 40 CFE IF HB)

    45 nice for speed, very good if uninspiring at times, but only with regard to bokeh. (Again at extrenme)

    55mm good walk around, but heavier than 80 and not as fast. but nice aspect

    80mm superb. Not the fastest, not the sharpest relative to 35mm, but beats any 80mm 2.8 out there, and you get the extra stop!

    120mm manual focus but great Makro and most like better than comparable HB 120 makro

    140mm great for speed and portrait nicer than most think. and relatively fast

    210mm ok; if you need reach and dont peak the corners :-)

    350/4 a fast but heavy )8lbs) use for balast or wildlife on a tripod LOL but would put up against the HB 350 non superachrmat any time (same as HB 350/4 F lens)

    1.4x Mutar really the best and I have both HB mutar. I actually would use it with even a HB lens rather than theirs!

    Then of course, you have ALL HB V lenses, with AE and focus confirmation (ok, at stop down)

    And many great Visoflex Leica lenses (with adapter)

    and several Schneider lenses with HB mount (I have a 300/2 at 16 lbs)

    other accessories always there. And cost a bit, guess why? They are good, and there are a lot of quiet Contax users.

    I find it interesting that, except for the "dead' label the Contax gets nothing but praise.

    However, every other system has hand wringing issues, even HB.

    But then don't get it. we will just wind up bidding against each other for items

    BTW the one rare item is the auto bellows. I just got one in mint for 2300. Really works, auto. But then who needs AF maco? Go figure.

    Batteries are ancient history. SO, if you want quality (and I will answer Jack's questionong of the IQ in my sample as soon as I can figure out what he is talking about! )

    best regards to all

    Victror

    BTW. BUY MAMIYA, please, I need some more C645 stuff and I don't want cpmpetition

  34. #34
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Take a look at the Contax 645 and a Phase back.
    Anyone unsure about platform choice or wants to use multiple systems should consider a back with an adapter system. Phase backs are nice but lack this vital feature. The one trick they have up their sleeve is the very long exposure, but this is a niche feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    From what I can see, the Hy6 syetm is expensive, large, cumbersome and provides little advantage over the Contax.
    The Hy6 looks about the same size as the other players. Why do you think it is large?

    People have universally praised the ergonomics. Why do you call it cumbersome? How long have you used the Hy6?

    It provides many advantages over the Contax. Flash sync up to 1/1000 compared to 1/125, all parts are still available new, larger selection of lenses, built-in colour temp sensor, more viewfinder options, metering is not built into the finder so it works with WLF too, better battery life, focus trapping, focus bracketing, ability to control camera from computer, a tilt-shift lens, integrated light grid projector for AF assistance in low light, 6x6 film option, and the system is still growing.

    Nothing against the Contax at all but there are real differences to consider.

  35. #35
    Member Clawery's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    I just wanted to add the new Phase One 645 AFD which will accept all the new Mamiya D lenses. The focus system has been improved, shutter lag has been lessened, the body is now made of metal and the grip is much.. much better.
    If anyone would like to see one, let me know.

    Chris Lawery
    Sales Manager
    [email protected]
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

    877-217-9870 | National
    404-234-5195 | Cell
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  36. #36
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Take a look at this link on our web site. It will show you some of the new features of the Phase One 645 Camera and some of the cool features.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/ph...phase-one-645/


    Chris Lawery
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  37. #37
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    I bought one Chris just dying to get it in my hands, hopefully soon. Looks really nice from the data sheets Lance sent me. Wiring money today , I'm down with it. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  38. #38
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    You referring to all that nasty noise in the dark upper left area of the crop, or the dandruff you can see in the guy's haiR?

    Just using the same expression you used for Guys shots when you made the comment about it snowing in Arizona in this thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...?t=1581&page=4, post #71. The image you posted above shows similar noise to the one Guy posted...

    ,
    Jack
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  39. #39
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Thanks everyone,

    Great response.

    Victor,

    I've been wrestling with the possibility of the Contax/Phase combo. Wish, like everyone else, they were still being made!

    Stuart,

    Thanks for your reply. I would mostly shoot landscape. The flying bird stuff isn't why I'd get into MFDB, but it might lead me to a focus trap camera if focus trap would help.

    As it is now, for the birds I prefocus on a tripod, and I strongly doubt (I have no experience with this, please tell me if I'm wrong) that any auto focus would be fast enough to catch a a small bird at 3 feet as it flies through the frame. I don't want to blow the images of birds up much past their real life size. The advantage I would get from medium format is the ability to crop heavily, as it is a trick to catch the birds in the frame at all, much less compose them well. I've found that 1/750- 1/1000, which is in the range of the Hy6, is the critical shutter speed to stop the wings. DOF and ISO are critical only as they relate to focus on the bird, but that is a big issue. Need lots of sun. (Not interested in flash.)

    Best,

    Mitchell



    [QUOTE=Stuart Richardson;29114]"Do you think the Focus Trap on the Hy6, could be fast enough to catch small birds in flight from 3 feet?"

    I think if you are interested in photographing birds in flight at 3 feet, medium format digital (or film) is not the way to go. Do you really need to blow up the photo over 30 inches wide? Because you can get great quality below that size with the current crop of pro digital SLR's...you will also get more depth of field, faster shutters, better autofocus, more lens selection, vastly better ISO performance, and a total system price that is a small fraction of the medium format digital body alone. If you have other plans for the system, then other reasoning applies, but for fast action nature photography, it does not seem like a good choice.
    Last edited by Mitchell; 20th May 2008 at 07:15.

  40. #40
    thsinar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Dear Mitchell,

    I have not tested the focus trap on the Hy6 with birds, but I can tell as much: it needs enough light and contrast, for the sensor to detect, and the subject needs to be in the metering field long enough for the sensor to react. If the light is too low, the reaction time ca be up to 100ms, which would probably be impossible to shoot and capture the bird!

    I think that this must be tested in situ.

    I agree that the possibility of a 1/1000th shutter speed is a must for this type of moving subject, as you mention.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post

    Thanks for your reply. I would mostly shoot landscape. The flying bird stuff isn't why I'd get into MFDB, but it might lead me to a focus trap camera if focus trap would help.

    As it is now, for the birds I prefocus on a tripod, and I strongly doubt (I have no experience with this, please tell me if I'm wrong) that any auto focus would be fast enough to catch a a small bird at 3 feet as it flies through the frame. I don't want to blow the images of birds up much past their real life size. The advantage I would get from medium format is the ability to crop heavily, as it is a trick to catch the birds in the frame at all, much less compose them well. I've found that 1/750- 1/1000, which is in the range of the Hy6, is the critical shutter speed to stop the wings. DOF and ISO are critical only as they relate to focus on the bird, but that is a big issue. Need lots of sun. (Not interested in flash.)

    Best,

    Mitchell

  41. #41
    Fred Ragland
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Thanks Chuck, to testify that we (Sinar and its distributors) care for our customers.

    David's issues are already taken care of, of course. We never leave a customer alone, even if sometimes the response and addressing the issue isn't as fast as expected.

    Thierry
    Like several others of us, I'm moving from Canon 1 series to medium format. The learning curve is steep but manageable with the help of experience shared by others such as the members of this panel.

    After carefully studying several threads, including the extensive "H2 or Hy6" discussion, the picture seemed to be coming together well until I saw the comments on David K's experiences in this thread. Then I realized that while there have been many positive comments about particular dealers, no one was commenting about distributor support. If its being said, its being said privately. I'm based in the U.S. and will rely on U.S. suppliers.

    I'm looking forward to seeing David K's comments and the replies from others on the panel.

    Fred

  42. #42
    DavidWM
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Hi Mitchell,
    I have done a lot of flight photography of birds years ago before I became a commercial photographer. I used to use an infared light beam set up and prefocus at the point at which I would calculate the bird to be in after flying through the beam. That position depends on the delay between the trigger being initiated by the bird and moment of exposure. If you use a focus trap instead of a beam, the system will be the same in that there will be some delay between the trigger and the exposure. I expect the trouble with a focus trap may be that you will be required to focus at the point where the trigger is initiated, which will not be where the bird is by the time the exposure occurs. Small birds travel fast. I think the answer will depend on if the Hy6 can use focus trap in a mirror-up mode and the amount of shutter delay when used in that mode. The ability to focus on a small, fast subject would be very demanding. I would be surprised if it worked, maybe if you could manually over-ride the system so that the actual point focus is slightly different to what the camera thinks it is, so after some testing you have more idea of where you want the focus to be. On exposure duration speeds, I found around 1/5000 sec was needed to stop the wings of small birds, so that came from the flash, not the shutter. The fast flash synch of the Hy6 would be great if you decide to use flash. Hope this helps.
    David

    [QUOTE=Mitchell;29226]Thanks everyone,

    As it is now, for the birds I prefocus on a tripod, and I strongly doubt (I have no experience with this, please tell me if I'm wrong) that any auto focus would be fast enough to catch a a small bird at 3 feet as it flies through the frame. I don't want to blow the images of birds up much past their real life size. The advantage I would get from medium format is the ability to crop heavily, as it is a trick to catch the birds in the frame at all, much less compose them well. I've found that 1/750- 1/1000, which is in the range of the Hy6, is the critical shutter speed to stop the wings. DOF and ISO are critical only as they relate to focus on the bird, but that is a big issue. Need lots of sun. (Not interested in flash.)

  43. #43
    thsinar
    Guest

    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Guy,

    I have, spoken with David offline, and his issues are dealt with and most have found their answer, I believe. But I shall let David tell this himself.

    FYI: Michael Ulsaker, Sinar dealer from Ulsaker Studios has been contacting David and gone through the issues, as well as Colin King from SBI, our distributor.

    Nobody is left alone, when needing help, being it a "learning curve" issue or serious issues. I wanted this to be said and known.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thierry he has some real issues . You should speak to him offline.

  44. #44
    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Chuck - I have to admit being a bit tongue in cheek regarding my response to Victor i have just finished using a complete Contax system with a Phase One back for about a month. I have to say that there are many aspects of this camera system which appeal to me - most especially is the relatively quiet shutter! The lenses are a mixed bag in terms of quality - my favourites being the 45mm and the 80.

    It is a great shame teh company is no longer making them - i Must say I have a personal gripe about the battery gobbling capability of this camera though..and autofocus isnt as good as on other ( newer?) systems I am using..

    hmm

    interesting that one can still buy these things new.does that include the lenses and acessories? I would be interested to know

    Thanks
    Pete
    Pete, yep, the new examples have everything in the box just like it was still in production. Amazing when you think about it really. So far at least, there hasn't been a problem with finding gear available though some of the items are in such demand that it has pushed prices up considerably on those.

    I find both the 45 and especially the 80 to be two of my own personal favorites as well. You also want to shoot the 55 and the 140. That 140 is way under rated from my use, and the 55 is just a pure pleasure. But my own number one personal favorite lens on my Contax is the HB 110/f2 FE. Magic, for my type of work. I also really love the HB 50mm f2.8. It's a big tank of a lens, about the size of the Contax 35mm, and really nice. One of the reasons I have stayed with the Contax system is the wide variety of glass that I can use with it.

    Autofocus in my experience is WAY over rated. Sure, it can rapidly get you into the ballpark, when it works instead of just sitting there hunting. But it rarely gets me the exact focus plane I want. Sharp nose and fuzzy eyes are NOT acceptable, as an example. This applies to MF or any other format also. NONE of the AF systems I have used would I ever rely on completely to get me where I want to go, save if I were to shoot everything at f16. Given I am normally shooting wide open or close to it, autofocus is not only worthless to me, it is downright frustrating coming home and seeing that most all the captures are half an inch off my desired focus plane. So I just keep the autofocus set on the rear button with all my cameras, and "do it by hand to get it right." A bit more work, sure, but at least the ones I get I like for the most part. To me, it is kind of like using cruse control on my car. Fine for an interstate, but when performance driving I want nothing to do with it. I am the master of my own fate, I have little tolerance with owning tools that want to think for themselves

  45. #45
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Thierry:

    David is a personal friend of mine and I just want to extend my own personal thank you for your speedy response in assisting him with his issues. In my view, quality support on any MF digital back should be priority one when considering which family of backs to purchase -- as we know, not all companies are the same here... It is great to see your active participation here as well, and I'm sure it instills additional confidence in the support available from Sinar.

    Thanks,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  46. #46
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Guy,

    I have, spoken with David offline, and his issues are dealt with and most have found their answer, I believe. But I shall let David tell this himself.

    FYI: Michael Ulsaker, Sinar dealer from Ulsaker Studios has been contacting David and gone through the issues, as well as Colin King from SBI, our distributor.

    Nobody is left alone, when needing help, being it a "learning curve" issue or serious issues. I wanted this to be said and known.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    This is excellent Thierry and i knew you would jump in with both feet to solve any of his issues. We all want what is best for all companies and all users to be a rewarding and a fruitful experience. My job or should I say my role in photography is to help people be better at what they do and in this spirit I do look at the sales reps and other employee's of these companies and get issues solved and working. I like to be involved and help everyone I can and that is part of the purpose of GetDPI forums. Jack and i want a place that is home to everyone and we are all great dinner guests at the big round table. We like having all the reps here that we can learn from and also help us when needed. Thanks for jumping in. Guy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  47. #47
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Anyone unsure about platform choice or wants to use multiple systems should consider a back with an adapter system. Phase backs are nice but lack this vital feature. The one trick they have up their sleeve is the very long exposure, but this is a niche feature.



    The Hy6 looks about the same size as the other players. Why do you think it is large?

    People have universally praised the ergonomics. Why do you call it cumbersome? How long have you used the Hy6?

    It provides many advantages over the Contax. Flash sync up to 1/1000 compared to 1/125, all parts are still available new, larger selection of lenses, built-in colour temp sensor, more viewfinder options, metering is not built into the finder so it works with WLF too, better battery life, focus trapping, focus bracketing, ability to control camera from computer, a tilt-shift lens, integrated light grid projector for AF assistance in low light, 6x6 film option, and the system is still growing.

    Nothing against the Contax at all but there are real differences to consider.
    Graham as usual, excellent points; however, mostly oriented towards studio vs field work. I do maybe 10% inside shoots, some protrait, some commercial for brochures and shows. All for my company, so I guess it is not professional (only had a few paid engagements) in the 'for money' sense. But many photographers are in the same situation. (I don't want to get into what's professional, but a friend of mine, a professor of math, was one of the best custom furnature makers in the world-he just didnt sell! them. Museum have looked at his stuff.)

    For field work, protability and confidence are key. Handling, physical size, ease of getting the job done. None of what you mentioned matters to me, or many 'field' photographers, and I would see the Hy6 and H3D as tremendous tools for inside work.

    Maybe I shoiuld have pointed that out at the start. I don't know what the poster here has in mind for the camera, and as I said, if studio work (although Irackly and others swear by Contax) I wouldn't see the Contax so strong for them, ONLY because of the SYnch speed (but you know, a little light planning would help, Except for high speed, in which case I want the 1/4,000 ambient light speed, the synch speed I think is WAY overplayed. Sorry but I also think that the whole leaf shutter business is also way overplayed.)

    As I have pointed out a number of times, I am in the position to buy whatever I want. I also got "THAT CLOSE" to the H3DII 31.

    Then I listed nthe things I would get for my $60,000

    higher synch rate (but slower field shiutter speed)
    Faster, maybe, AF
    New lenses, but not clear any better
    New software, yeh, for Mac


    hmmm... that's it

    similar for Hy6 Sinar

    just not worth even getting up to speed. At 65, I dont have any 'toy' value time.

    so, just want others to know what the options are. We are all fans of our tools, but we also should be clear what we use them for (and I hope this post clarifies that)

    That said-The ISO Sinar was impressive
    SOme HB lenses look almost as good as the Contx and HB V
    The Rollie is similar, but what lens is better?

    When I want a REALLY good lens, then I get out of AF retrofocus all together and use the Alpa-with non retro focus lenses. Talk about images so sharp you can cut youself.

    well
    end
    filled too much space here

    regards
    Victor

  48. #48
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Take a look at the Contax 645 and a Phase back.

    From what I can see, the Hy6 syetm is expensive, large, cumbersome and provides little advantage over the Contax.

    If you are hell bent on leaf shutters or need synch speeds over 125, by all means pursue.

    If not,

    The Hasselblad is also very expensive, a closed system and has flaky software.

    But hey, just my oppinion after looking at these for some time.

    I cannot comment on handling. However, the files from both seem no better than the Contax,
    the contax glass is great, and the performance of the Phase is as good as any.

    Victor

    PS: OK, you could also go for the Mamiya; but you won't get the glass!

    :-)
    Victor:

    I have to disagree with you on a couple points.

    First, you have to consider that the Hy6 camera is a 6x6 camera. This doesn't make it cumbersome and large is a relative term. The Contax is a great camera, but it is a 645 camera, the Hy6 is a 6x6. It is natural for the Hy6 to be bigger than the Contax. If size is the prequisite, then perhaps 6x6 format is not the option someone should be looking at. Unless other considerations matter, such as:

    *larger, brighter viewfinder
    *ergonomically adjustable grip
    *the lack of a necessary "wake-up" tap before releasing the shutter
    *advanced features like "focus trap" and more to come
    *flash sync speeds up to 1/1000th of a second
    *access to many of the same lenses the Contax uses and more
    *45 degree finder, in addition to the WLF and 90 degree
    *readily available from the manufacturer in warrantied condition
    *parts and service guaranteed to be readily available for years

    If these other items matter, and size is not the only criteria, then I think anyone should consider the Hy6. Is it expensive? Well, that again is a relative term. It is more expensive than the Contax, but then most products that are still in production tend to be more expensive than products which are no longer in production since you're buying them new instead of used.

    Regarding Hasselblad, again being expensive is a relative term, The only MF camera system that can be had for significantly less than the Hy6/H3D systems is the Contax, which is fine if you don't mind the disadvantages against the Hy6 posted above. Even the new Mamiya AFDIII is no longer a budget camera as the new digital lenses for this product cost as much (and more) than the lenses for the H3D.

    Also, you stated Hasselblad software is "Flaky". Can you please go into more detail here? Generally the term "Flaky" is used to describe a product that is quirky or unstable, and the Hasselblad software, whether it is Flexcolor or even the new Phocus software is anything but. Flexcolor has been one of the most rock solid applications that any of my customers deal with. I know, because I monitor all of the tech support issues. And Flexcolor has been great.

    The H3D is indeed a "closed" system, just like the Canon and Nikon and ...

    All that "closed" means is that should you decide to change, you'll be selling a camera and some lenses in addition to the digital back. It's not like buying a closed system locks you into something where you suddenly have no choice. And you benefit from the advantages of the integration.

    As much as I feel the Hy6 and H3D are great camera systems, remember that Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad all make excellent digital backs for any MF camera - some, like Hasselblad and Sinar, with user changeable camera adapter kits. So, if you're looking for the most versatility possible, a Sinar or Hasselblad on any camera - or camera{s} - you want is an awesome and affordable solution.

    BTW - below are some size comparison images between the cameras (unfortunately didn't have a digital back for the Contax/Mamiya available at the time of shooting).

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

  49. #49
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Graham as usual, excellent points; however, mostly oriented towards studio vs field work.
    Interesting that you see it that way. I usually shot outdoors too I see those all as being helpful to shooters wherever they are working, though some things like computer control are more likely to be indoors. Issues such as better battery life are of MORE relevance to field shooters than studio shooters.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    the synch speed I think is WAY overplayed. Sorry but I also think that the whole leaf shutter business is also way overplayed.)
    If you are using only natural light for landscape photography and the like, then I agree. If you want to shoot people in the sun you will almost certainly need a decent flash sync speed to get good results. I suspect you are mainly interested in landscape photography?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    When I want a REALLY good lens, then I get out of AF retrofocus all together and use the Alpa-with non retro focus lenses. Talk about images so sharp you can cut youself.
    Yes those lenses are fantastic and much more suited to landscape and architecture than people shooting
    Last edited by Graham Mitchell; 20th May 2008 at 11:33.

  50. #50
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/PPR View Post
    Victor:

    I have to disagree with you on a couple points.

    First, you have to consider that the Hy6 camera is a 6x6 camera.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
    I'd like to add my .02 point to this: I am 6'-6" tall, or just a few cm under 2 meters. At my height when shooting typical models, a waist level finder is a *huge* benefit for the lower shooting perspective. BUT, a WL finder on a camera with the back stuck in landscape orientation is essentially useless when shooting models, and definitely more useless than the same camera with a prism finder.

    Hence, a system that offers a WLF where I can also rotate the back to portrait orientation is ideal. Add in good AF and right now I think that limits the playing field to the Hy6. I had shared this thinking with David Kipper as he was deciding which new system to go with, and I think it may have been his main deciding factor for taking the plunge with the Rollei. After shooting with David's camera at our model shoot session in Puerto Rico, I can confirm that combination was essentially a magic UI for me, the total ergo-package of WL composing and portrait orientation just works in that situation.

    As for the size difference between the Rollei 6x6, my Mamiya AFD, the Contax 645 I used to own and the Hassy H's I've rented, the difference is virtually insignificant, essentially a non-issue.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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