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Thread: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Arrow Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    See DPReview
    and, of course: Leaf's announcements: Leaf announced its new 80 Mpx digital back - wow!! I am not sure I am interested personally, being very happy with my P65+, but this is definitely something - and something that will require a lot of computer power, too!

    I thought the forum enjoy the news... some new, great ways to part from some of that hard-earned cash!
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    lenses need to resolve at list 100 cy/mm...

    80 MP @ 800 iso !

    long exposure ?

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Yeah and I just scream out to Steve of capture Integration to get one, before I pull the plug on the H4D60

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    Yeah and I just scream out to Steve of capture Integration to get one, before I pull the plug on the H4D60
    why wait? get the aptus II 10r..has a larger sensor in the landscape mode than the 12..

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    We've posted a 100% JPG compliments of a test done by Leaf and photographer Julian Cornish-Trestrail.

    A single-shot's back's mortal enemy has always been fabric (at least when shot with sharp lenses). Here is an unretouched image using a Rodenstock 90mm showing really impressive sharpness. Do the evaluation yourself.

    Leaf is claiming this as a as-good-or-better than the best multishot solutions. We're anxious to get our hands on it to do our own tests, but this test shoot is extremely promising in that regard.

    A raw file is not possible until a public version of Capture One or Leaf Capture is released with support for the raw files from the Leaf Aptus-II 12.

    Download Leaf Aptus-II 12 full resolution file


    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    lenses need to resolve at list 100 cy/mm...
    NO, this is not an achromatic sensor. It is a color sensor that uses Bayer spectral separation of Red, Blue and Green. So, in general this sensor will require lenses that resolve approximately 70 lp/mm. If it was mono or achromatic, then you would be correct in your estimate of 100 lp/mm.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    why wait? get the aptus II 10r..has a larger sensor in the landscape mode than the 12..
    Yeah the Leaf Aptus II 10R was the original intent, but considering that what really matters most to my work is PRINT SIZE, and that the cropping out of the Horizontal lines is minimum, the 12R will make more sense, but still have to do a test with both to insure we are getting the right cameras, since we need TWO.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    We've posted a 100% JPG compliments of a test done by Leaf and photographer Julian Cornish-Trestrail.

    A single-shot's back's mortal enemy has always been fabric (at least when shot with sharp lenses). Here is an unretouched image using a Rodenstock 90mm showing really impressive sharpness. Do the evaluation yourself.

    Leaf is claiming this as a as-good-or-better than the best multishot solutions. We're anxious to get our hands on it to do our own tests, but this test shoot is extremely promising in that regard.

    A raw file is not possible until a public version of Capture One or Leaf Capture is released with support for the raw files from the Leaf Aptus-II 12.

    Download Leaf Aptus-II 12 full resolution file


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    Doug.. while I wait for Steve to return my email, and see what is cooking up for us, what are delivery dates, and known specials for the 12R and V-Grip, oh and the 120 TS?

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    Yeah and I just scream out to Steve of capture Integration to get one, before I pull the plug on the H4D60
    [QUOTE=dougpetersonci;247058]We've posted a 100% JPG compliments of a test done by Leaf and photographer Julian Cornish-Trestrail.

    A single-shot's back's mortal enemy has always been fabric (at least when shot with sharp lenses). Here is an unretouched image using a Rodenstock 90mm showing really impressive sharpness. Do the evaluation yourself.

    Leaf is claiming this as a as-good-or-better than the best multishot solutions. We're anxious to get our hands on it to do our own tests, but this test shoot is extremely promising in that regard.

    A raw file is not possible until a public version of Capture One or Leaf Capture is released with support for the raw files from the Leaf Aptus-II 12.

    Download Leaf Aptus-II 12 full resolution file


    [font="Arial"]Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    a single capture as good as a multishot.. come-on. maybe a 22mp multishot
    maybe.
    I would have to see that to believe it.

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    [QUOTE=paulmoore;247074]
    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    We've posted a 100% JPG compliments of a test done by Leaf and photographer Julian Cornish-Trestrail.

    A single-shot's back's mortal enemy has always been fabric (at least when shot with sharp lenses). Here is an unretouched image using a Rodenstock 90mm showing really impressive sharpness. Do the evaluation yourself.

    Leaf is claiming this as a as-good-or-better than the best multishot solutions. We're anxious to get our hands on it to do our own tests, but this test shoot is extremely promising in that regard.

    A raw file is not possible until a public version of Capture One or Leaf Capture is released with support for the raw files from the Leaf Aptus-II 12.

    Download Leaf Aptus-II 12 full resolution file


    [font="Arial"]Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    a single capture as good as a multishot.. come-on. maybe a 22mp multishot
    maybe.
    I would have to see that to believe it.
    Hehe, yeah thanks Paul, seen that one, just that Steve is my Guy over at CaptureIntegration

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    I'll repeat my question from another forum here, as it remains unanswered for the moment.

    Will the Aptus II 12R (with the rotating sensor) be available in an AFi mount? If not, then which 6x6 camera is this rotating sensor intended for?

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    I'll repeat my question from another forum here, as it remains unanswered for the moment.

    Will the Aptus II 12R (with the rotating sensor) be available in an AFi mount? If not, then which 6x6 camera is this rotating sensor intended for?
    I would like to know this also.

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    I'll repeat my question from another forum here, as it remains unanswered for the moment.

    Will the Aptus II 12R (with the rotating sensor) be available in an AFi mount? If not, then which 6x6 camera is this rotating sensor intended for?
    The Leaf Aptus II 12 same as the Leaf Aptus II 10 do work on the DF body, not sure about compatibility with the Afi, but IMO it will work on it to.
    Last edited by KETCH ROSSI; 20th September 2010 at 15:36.

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    Member Jeff Turner's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    The Leaf site lists the following cameras as compatible for the Leaf Aptus II 10R:
    Hasselblad V series (not including 200 and 2000 versions)
    Medium format (with adapter): Mamiya RZ67, RZ67 Pro II, RZ Pro IId, RB67, Fuji GX680II, GX680III, Bronica SQA/SQAi
    Compatible view cameras: Alpa, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Horseman, Linhof, Sinar, Toyo, Rollei X-Act2 and others via Leaf Graflok or third-party adapters

    This might be a clue for the II 12R...no DF, No AFi...I understand the dimensional constraints on the DF...the height of the rear camera opening is just not enough for a rotated sensor and would block the ends of the sensor. The lack of AFi compatbility for the II 10R may also suggest that there are no plans to revive the AFi.
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Yeah I guess the Rotating sensor might not go with the DF after all then..

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    why wait? get the aptus II 10r..has a larger sensor in the landscape mode than the 12..
    Actually Paul, the Leaf Aptus II 12 has a smaller sensor in the Horizontal Landscape, but has more resolution even on the Landscape Horizontal field of view then the 10, as its sensor is 10.320 Pixels Horizontally vs. the 9,288 of the Aptus II 10.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by KETCH ROSSI View Post
    Yeah I guess the Rotating sensor might not go with the DF after all then..
    Even if it was technically possible (it isn't), you would get a ~40.3x40.3, 60MP crop on a 645 body, which you can do anyway by using SensorFlex...

    Yair
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    NO, this is not an achromatic sensor. It is a color sensor that uses Bayer spectral separation of Red, Blue and Green. So, in general this sensor will require lenses that resolve approximately 70 lp/mm. If it was mono or achromatic, then you would be correct in your estimate of 100 lp/mm.
    It doesn't work like that. When you talk about the resolving power of a lens there's always a threshold contrast in the MTF of the lens to consider. Even though digital sensors are more sensitive to contrast than most films you'll need more contrast from your lens if you intend to resolve detail close to the sensor's Nyquist frequency. If you test the aerial image of a modern high-end MF lens by projecting a lith lens target through that lens you could see that the actual resolving power of the lens on axis is diffraction limited between f/5.6 and f/8. At the center many 35mm and MF lenses can resolve more than 200 lp/mm. Some Zeiss glass was quoted at 400 lp/mm, diffraction limited at f/4.
    The real challenge in lens design is getting enough contrast towards the edges of the image circle. But 100 lp/mm at 35mm off axis should still be possible.

    With the smaller 5.2 micron sensel pitch of the latest MFD sensor generation you can benefit from a high performance lens design more than with the older 6 micron sensors. Of course you'll also be able to spot flaws in a lens easier. And with the increased system resolution as photographer you'll have a tougher job to make use of it.

    Doug, thanks for the full res jpeg. Impressive quality!

    -Dominique

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Even if it was technically possible (it isn't), you would get a ~40.3x40.3, 60MP crop on a 645 body, which you can do anyway by using SensorFlex...

    Yair
    Hehe, actually really just hit me with Steve's email, I DON'T NEED IT I HAVE THE V-GRIP..

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Even if it was technically possible (it isn't), you would get a ~40.3x40.3, 60MP crop on a 645 body, which you can do anyway by using SensorFlex...

    Yair
    Hehe, actually really just hit me with Steve's email, if I do end up going with the Leaf/DF system instead of the Hasssy H4D 60, I DON'T NEED NO ROTATING SENSOR.. I HAVE THE V-GRIP..

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    as an architect photographer, i'm dreaming of this kind of large file (and can't afford it, my clients need A3 max. anyway... )... but i'm suspicious about the diffraction problem... if you need large DOF, you will face a real problem here !

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    as an architect photographer, i'm dreaming of this kind of large file (and can't afford it, my clients need A3 max. anyway... )... but i'm suspicious about the diffraction problem... if you need large DOF, you will face a real problem here !
    I see a back like this as a super tech/view camera solution over most other applications. Lenses available that outperform anything available to reflex users and full movements to mitigate DOF issues.

    I'd love to see this puppy on my Rollei Xact-II ... which will happen when I win the Lotto next week ...

    -Marc

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    as an architect photographer, i'm dreaming of this kind of large file (and can't afford it, my clients need A3 max. anyway... )... but i'm suspicious about the diffraction problem... if you need large DOF, you will face a real problem here !
    Diffraction is an optical problem that occurs no matter what kind of sensor you use. The only difference is that with a higher res sensor you'll be able to resolve the diffraction pattern better and you'll notice the effect of diffraction at wider f-stops on the pixel level of the file. But when you compare different sensors of various resolution you should compare them at the same print size. Pixel peeping each at native file size won't do.

    -Dominique

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SCHWARZZEIT View Post
    Diffraction is an optical problem that occurs no matter what kind of sensor you use. The only difference is that with a higher res sensor you'll be able to resolve the diffraction pattern better and you'll notice the effect of diffraction at wider f-stops on the pixel level of the file. But when you compare different sensors of various resolution you should compare them at the same print size. Pixel peeping each at native file size won't do.

    -Dominique
    doing so, "from my experience..." visually more pixel density you have, thinner is the DOF !

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    doing so, "from my experience..." visually more pixel density you have, thinner is the DOF !
    You're right. But that's just a visual impression you get when you view a high res print from a close distance. The classic concept of DOF is based on the visual impression at a distance that allows you to have the whole image within your field of view.

    On high res images you have some areas that are still within the classic DOF but less sharp than at the sharpest plane of focus. But you can only see it if you step closer the print or zoom deep into the file. On a lower res image that whole area is equally blurry because the sensor simply cannot resolve any more detail.

    -Dominique

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SCHWARZZEIT View Post
    It doesn't work like that. When you talk about the resolving power of a lens there's always a threshold contrast in the MTF of the lens to consider. Even though digital sensors are more sensitive to contrast than most films you'll need more contrast from your lens if you intend to resolve detail close to the sensor's Nyquist frequency. If you test the aerial image of a modern high-end MF lens by projecting a lith lens target through that lens you could see that the actual resolving power of the lens on axis is diffraction limited between f/5.6 and f/8. At the center many 35mm and MF lenses can resolve more than 200 lp/mm. Some Zeiss glass was quoted at 400 lp/mm, diffraction limited at f/4.
    The real challenge in lens design is getting enough contrast towards the edges of the image circle. But 100 lp/mm at 35mm off axis should still be possible.
    Yes, of course a lens can deliver much more resolution than 100 lp/mm. I was merely pointing out that the effective Nyquist limit of this 80MP sensor is approximately 70 lp/mm, and not 100 lp/mm.

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Yair showed me some first captures of the Aptus II 12 and the resolution is absolutely incredible.
    You will hardly ever see any serious moire with this sensor.
    Even the Phase 80D lens looks extremely good on this sensor edge to edge (stopped down).
    Really promising for anybody looking for high rez.

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Waiting to see what configurations this sensor Phase and leaf will do down the road. You know it is coming question is when.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Sorry all that I don't have too much time to post more as you can imagine this new multi-shot killer keeps me quite busy here in Cologne.

    But perhaps as a small teaser I can post the following 25 sec/ 100 iso/ f9 image I just took from my hotel window

    Ignore the bottom left corner this is the pillow I used as a tripod:-)

    645 DF body with a 45mm D lens;



    And a couple of crops:





    More to come over the coming weeks with hi-res download links etc.

    Yair
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    And one more before I catch a few ZZZs;

    Last weekend from Waterloo Bridge in London. 645DF, 80mm LS lens @ f11. These are two hand-held frames with allot of overlap just to get the South Bank on the Right into the frame. The final stitch is over 15,500 pixel wide



    And some 100% crops





    These buildings are nearly 7km away from where I was...(and it's a standard 80mm...)



    Yair
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Holy Smokes!

    WOWZER!

    -Marc

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    And one more before I catch a few ZZZs;

    Last weekend from Waterloo Bridge in London. 645DF, 80mm LS lens @ f11. These are two hand-held frames with allot of overlap just to get the South Bank on the Right into the frame. The final stitch is over 15,500 pixel wide



    And some 100% crops





    These buildings are nearly 7km away from where I was...(and it's a standard 80mm...)



    Yair

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Speechless

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    WOW. I'm feeling the need to upgrade. LOL

    Thanks Yair keep them coming
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Man, I would like to shoot that with some Digitar or Digaron lenses. My eyes feel scratchy just thinking about it!

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Stunning and simply amazing...!!

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Very Nice Yair, can you post one full frame, no crops at all? Really like to get the grasp of how the Ratio looks on such wide range with over 10,000 Horizontal Pixels.

    As I do love the wider Ratio of the 10, but hope to see the 12 work its way in to my hands

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Must. Resist. Temptation. Must. Stop. Drooling.
    --
    But nice examples, seriously. Thats the kind i always like to see - real life shots, not some lab generated fluff.

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    An interesting question is why Phase have released their newest and top res sensor as a Leaf back rather than Phase One?

    My suspicions would be that there is an upgrade of the Phase package (screen, electronics, controls) on on its way, but not ready yet. Hence the release of the new sensor in the 'old' Leaf packaging. I would expect to see the new 80mp sensor in a new design Phase back next year, maybe in Q2?

    Though this is all conjecture on my part, it is very apparent that the thing everyone has been asking for -a better Phase screen + interface - was not announced.
    Last edited by narikin; 21st September 2010 at 21:35.

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Just buy it already. You know you want it.

    See? That wasn't so hard, now was it?

    Now, slowly and carefully....sell me your 17 or 22 or 5 for cheap.

    Is my Jedi Mind Trick working?

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    I think P1/Leaf wanted to show, that they are even more in front when it comes to the MP race. In addition they know (at least I really hope) that a P85+ has to have more than just 80Mp. We need some real inovations.

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Fair that what is being discussed here and in most places is MP and sensor size since this is first what grab attention of people most. However, there is much more to a sensor than this. Thus, is there for Aptus-II 12 more improvements in image quality and performance suffice for this to be labelled a newer generation sensor than was Aptus-II 8 and 10? --- What specifically?

    How do these compare to the older Aptus 65 & 75 (Aptus-II 6 and 7) and older yet Aptus 22 (Aptus-II 5)?

    Further, how do predeccessor to Aptus-II 12, the Aptus-II 8 and 10 compare to Aptus-II 12?

    Regards
    Anders

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    I would like to know how this 80MP Dalsa sensor compares to the other 645 format Dalsa sensor?

    Exclusivity for the sensor for Phase companies? What does that mean exactly? The last one was also allegedly exclusive (for a certain period) to Phase (Dalsa sensor as used in the P65+).

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    iŽd buy one of these if it gets released for the Hy6/AFi.
    Philipp Derganz Photography
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe View Post
    iŽd buy one of these if it gets released for the Hy6/AFi.
    I'd be tempted to get one too...

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe View Post
    iŽd buy one of these if it gets released for the Hy6/AFi.
    I'm guessing you'll be able to get it any mount you want when it's the Phase branded version. Of course that one is going to cost more because of the additional features...
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I'm guessing you'll be able to get it any mount you want when it's the Phase branded version.
    but not Hy6/AFi... it would be the first Phase One back supporting this mount
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Of course that one is going to cost more because of the additional features...
    additonal features? Sensor Plus, but other than that let's wait and see...
    Currently clearly the Leaf backs offer more features (except for Sensor Plus).

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe View Post
    iŽd buy one of these if it gets released for the Hy6/AFi.
    No chance - I visited Leaf at Photokina today: as it is known today there will NEVER be ANY new back from Leaf for AFI. So latest option is AIF-II 10 (they still have some, so if you want to upgrade) - no chance for more. The guy from Leaf-Germany also was not happy with this situation (and Yair is talking all day to "unhappy" customers - he was busy so I couldn't say hello, maybe tomorrow). They sold a bigger number of AFIs here in Germany...

    Conclusion: they (Phase/Leaf) want us to trash our AFIs and go to Phamyia - I never will do! So let's hope, that Sinar has a future (I will visit them tomorrow)...

    Andreas

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmiddi View Post
    No chance - I visited Leaf at Photokina today: as it is known today there will NEVER be ANY new back from Leaf for AFI. So latest option is AIF-II 10 (they still have some, so if you want to upgrade) - no chance for more. The guy from Leaf-Germany also was not happy with this situation (and Yair is talking all day to "unhappy" customers - he was busy so I couldn't say hello, maybe tomorrow). They sold a bigger number of AFIs here in Germany...

    Conclusion: they (Phase/Leaf) want us to trash our AFIs and go to Phamyia - I never will do! So let's hope, that Sinar has a future (I will visit them tomorrow)...

    Andreas
    What happened to that "open system" philosophy espoused by Phase?

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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    It was Sinar and Rollei together that originally shut Phase out, THAT's what happened to Phase's "open" philosophy... But I'm betting Phase ends up being the adult in this sandbox and offers the next back in Hy6 mount.
    Jack
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    Re: Leaf Aptus-II 12 - 80 Mpx!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It was Sinar and Rollei together that originally shut Phase out, THAT's what happened to Phase's "open" philosophy...
    that's what I've heard, too.
    But I'm betting Phase ends up being the adult in this sandbox and offers the next back in Hy6 mount.
    I think there is too much R&D involved in relation to the potential sale numbers. So I don't think so.
    Leaf does not even support Contax with the new Aptus II 12... (although they will make a Contax mount if demand is high enough, which is in this case easy as they have the interface and the required firmware). And there are certainly much more Contax' around than AFi's/Hy6's ...

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