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Thread: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

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    New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Just saw this news at BJP and didn't recall seeing it posted so, I thought I'd share the link. It talks about Phase's development of a possible new body (DF2), a new Phase back based on the 80MP sensor and its new "Investment Protection" program. Take a read:

    http://www.bjp-online.com/british-jo...-camera-design

    -Marq

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Thanks for this link - indeed very interesting information! This will hopefully start to bring the MF market into movement again and prices down!

    If Phase really brings a newly designed camera (the body - even the DF body is not what I want and expect) then their MF product line will become interesting again for many who still cannot get friend so far (like myself).

    I do hope that they will offer then also great tradi in programs for 3rd party MF systems

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    I love this line right here and I quote

    “That means that anybody that buys a new Phase One digital back from now, will get 90% of that value back within the next 18 months if we release a new Phase One back.”
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    This is pretty darn good folks

    The programme, which functions similarly to a trade-in offer, is available for all Phase One’s products – from digital backs to camera bodies, lenses and software. “If we introduce a new back in January, the customer that has bought our current back between now and January will then have six months to make up his mind whether he wants to buy a new product or not. If he decides to upgrade, we will give him 90% of his old back.”

    A similar offer is also available for Phase One’s camera body, says Håkonsson. “If we come out with a DF2, we’ll give him back 50% of the DF camera price,” he tells BJP. Customers wishing to buy a newly-released lens will also benefit from a 50% cash-back offer if they trade in any lens purchased in the past 18 months.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    This will dispel some rumors that MF is dead

    All-in-all Håkonsson is confident about Phase One’s prospects. “We’re up 50% this year,” he tells BJP. “We take that as a signal that medium format market is getting better.”
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    “That means that anybody that buys a new Phase One digital back from now, will get 90% of that value back within the next 18 months if we release a new Phase One back.”
    This could be a very impressive offering... It also tells me Phase just wants some cash-flow. Good thing for people seeking MFD options.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This will dispel some rumors that MF is dead

    All-in-all Håkonsson is confident about Phase One’s prospects. “We’re up 50% this year,” he tells BJP. “We take that as a signal that medium format market is getting better.”
    Guy,

    I caught that line as well it bodes well for Phase; as companies that can spend on innovation during economic downturns, are better positioned for the turnarounds.

    -Marq

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    I knew about the body but not the program and sales numbers are up. It does look good for Phase and my bet Hassy is looking good also. All good news for the industry
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Will this programme only apply for Phase One or Leaf as well?

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    I don't wish to intrude on a Phase thread, but for the sake of accuracy in the article the following quote...

    The programme is reminiscent of a similar trade-in deal Hasselblad used to offer to its customers. However, Hasselblad discontinued the programme in late 2008 in a bid to lower the price of its integrated medium format systems.

    ...is incorrect as we still very much offer a trade in program for our own products and competitors products.

    Thats all,

    David

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    Senior Member KETCH ROSSI's Avatar
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    I think this is great and it is a Vital program, which will continue to insure MF user with a safer investment on their Pro gear.

    Usually when I buy something I never expected a company to take it back and give me that much credit for it, once I have used and made the money back 10 folds, but I'll take it

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Yeah they HAVE to do something like this in the face of the Pentax 645D, and Hasselhof's discounted MF release.

    the only other answer it to be clearly better/ more featured, and though Phase have probably the best sensor (MP + DR) out there, the rest is not innovative in the least.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    The body will be unique are the rumors I hear
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Yeah they HAVE to do something like this in the face of the Pentax 645D, and Hasselhof's discounted MF release.

    the only other answer it to be clearly better/ more featured, and though Phase have probably the best sensor (MP + DR) out there, the rest is not innovative in the least.
    I have a feeling with the new sensor they may just bite the bullet and completely redesign the back for features we been screaming for BIGGER LCD. There is just no way with the new sensor Phase will not use it. Just look at the P65+ with a offspring of a P40+. Clearly a way to get double mileage out of one sensor build
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I have a feeling with the new sensor they may just bite the bullet and completely redesign the back for features we been screaming for BIGGER LCD.
    I certainly hope so ... the current design is pretty long in the tooth and the LCD is pretty pathetic - small and poor resolution.

    Haven't used a Leaf back but they look pretty good. Maybe they should adapt that design.
    wayne
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The body will be unique are the rumors I hear
    I do hope that it will represent a completely clean break from the existing AFD based platform. A completely new design like the Leica S2 is. The S2 is reputed to have cost $25m in development costs.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    +1
    the AFD just left me cold, not something I wanted to hold and fondle.

  18. #18
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Hello All, this is my first post. I am in the market for a MF camera and I really am hoping that the new Phase body will have somewhat similar form factor as the S2.

    Mr Guy, when you said the body will be unique, can you share with us on the details and the expected launch date?

    Thanks,

    Norman

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    All I got was unique as a answer. I wish i had more data and a timeline. My bet though there will be some kind of upgrade path from the DF which their was one for existing back owners of the AFDIII for 1500 dollars which is a nice deal. ( I should qualify this it was owners that bought back, body and lens kits)

    Bottom line if you read between the lines with all this new insurance packages is Phase wants to keep you as a customer so they will always offer these incentives to upgrade and keep you in the system. Frankly it is a smart thing to do all around. You can sit out a upgrade and wait or move on one. This is how I got my P40+ was through a upgrade path and I will most likely upgrade again. So yes Phase loves folks like me that keep upgrading. No 35mm OEM does anything like this so buying Leaf, Phase and Hassy are more value added user incentives to buy in.

    Norman if you buy today you can pretty much be sure there will be a upgrade path coming.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    I too am a regular upgrader, but will wait this one out. I do want 80Mp, but think it will be in a new Phase back soon enough. That is worth the wait.

    Outside of the 80mp+ sensor with even better DR, I am hoping for:

    - some way to 100% check focus on the back, even if its just a central spot area. i.e. on screen live view, even briefly.
    - which requires a better screen
    - and/or the ability to preview on an external device like iPad (not tethering and process, just view)
    - faster frame rate
    - lighter.
    - integrated power with the (new?) camera so I dont need to carry two power sources & chargers around
    - something genius I hadn't even dreamed of, like EVF connection point.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Outside of the 80mp+ sensor with even better DR, I am hoping for:

    - some way to 100% check focus on the back, even if its just a central spot area. i.e. on screen live view, even briefly.
    - which requires a better screen
    to some degree this is already available on a Leaf back. My feeling is ... if you are used to the LCD on the Leaf... you can actually use it to check focus. Not entirely sure about it, though... would require to actually work with a Leaf for some time.
    Working with a tech camera I actually tend to prefer a Leaf back as it provides some very nice features on the LCD... like movable grid lines (comes in hand when shooting architecture or so) and you can log custom data, for instance lens data, that are available in the metadata of the RAW files afterwards.
    As to tethering in the field I prefer to power the back from the internal battery of the back (it's easier to carry some more batteries for the back than an external power device for the laptop). This is not possible on the Leaf as you have to detach the battery to plug the FW cable. But this is minor to me personally as I actually very rarely tether in the field.
    Last edited by thomas; 30th September 2010 at 02:59.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I do hope that it will represent a completely clean break from the existing AFD based platform. A completely new design like the Leica S2 is. The S2 is reputed to have cost $25m in development costs.
    The S2 development cost 27m EUR (about $40m). Each lens cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-3m each. Leica has about 30 people working on the S system right now. Making a brand new camera system isn't cheap or easy.

    Curious to see what Phase comes up with (and when). Usually Photokina is the place to showcase new products. Perhaps they might show something at PhotoPlus in a few weeks.

    David
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    to some degree this is already available on a Leaf back. My feeling is ... if you are used to the LCD on the Leaf... you can actually use it to check focus. Not entirely sure about it, though... would require to actually work with a Leaf for some time..
    Yes, and 'to some degree' its on the Phase backs too - you can zoom in 3steps to look at a part of the images - but the screen/ resolution is too poor for it to be usable in the real world.

    Compared to the Canon live view focus zoom on their screen, its all a very bad joke.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    The S2 development cost 27m EUR (about $40m). Each lens cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-3m each. Leica has about 30 people working on the S system right now. Making a brand new camera system isn't cheap or easy.

    Curious to see what Phase comes up with (and when). Usually Photokina is the place to showcase new products. Perhaps they might show something at PhotoPlus in a few weeks.

    David
    Development costs of this magnitude are staggering. Even assuming a $10k profit margin per unit at the manufacturer's level (a number I pulled out of the air) it would take 4,000 units to break even. I've got no idea what their worldwide sales per year might be but I think it's safe to say it will take quite a number of years to sell that many units.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Development costs of this magnitude are staggering. Even assuming a $10k profit margin per unit at the manufacturer's level (a number I pulled out of the air) it would take 4,000 units to break even. I've got no idea what their worldwide sales per year might be but I think it's safe to say it will take quite a number of years to sell that many units.
    Interesting comment ... what do you think Leica would do if they are unable to sell enough units to make a profit? Do you see the S2 following the same path as the Afi/Hy6?

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Here's my bit of speculation on the development cost of the S2 ... it's very simple, Leica's committed to the S platform for the long haul. They have a deep pockets owner who has a longer window for earning back his investment. It's a bit of gamble, but if the platform remains viable for 5-10 years, the company probably doesn't need the same type of investment to be placed into an S3 or S4 which won't need to be redesigned from the ground up for each iteration. The turn-around on profit for lenses should be much quicker as their design update window will certainly be much longer than that for the camera.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Interesting comment ... what do you think Leica would do if they are unable to sell enough units to make a profit? Do you see the S2 following the same path as the Afi/Hy6?
    As a current Hy6 owner (and potential S2 buyer) I've asked myself that question many times. I can only assume that decisions at Leica will be based on sound business fundamentals and not emotion. I agree with Kurt's assessment that Leica has made this investment with a long term viewpoint. I do not think they will abandon this platform in the short term... even if sales do not meet their original expectations (and I have no idea what they are or whether that's happening). Also, it seems to me that Jenoptic/Sinar is a very different company than Leica. The Hy6 was never more than a mosquito on an elephant's *** to that company whereas the S2 is clearly one of Leica's flagship products. These are just my thoughts... I'm sure there are others much better qualified to answer this question.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Well I think they are committed to the S system simply because they jumped into a market segment that has little competition in the S style. But than again in the back of ones mind they killed the R because they did not want to go against the N/C/S of the world. What happens if the Pentax takes off , something radical comes and changes the game. They already established the death of the R if the game changes for the S what will they do. More than anything they leave us guessing after the R. You all know there are a lot of R users very unhappy out there. Time will tell obviously and they could flourish here in this segment also. Personally to me it's not ready until 5 more lenses are out on the streets but that is me. Horses for courses but Im also not unhappy with my kit or Hassys either . Only time will tell. Like to see a 50+mpx 5.2 sensor next at a much lower entry fee.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Good points Guy... especially the one about Pentax. If they can deliver the goods at the price point they've targeted then watch out below. I've recently read that sales of luxury goods are booming once again. Apparently the very high end of the market, e.g. super-yachts, etc., is stronger than it's been in a long while. My opinion is that the Leica S2 will appeal to that marketplace.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    All I got was unique as a answer.
    Given the purchase of Leaf, would a version II of an AFI/HY6 save a lot on R&D and qualify as unique?

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    They already established the death of the R if the game changes for the S what will they do. More than anything they leave us guessing after the R. You all know there are a lot of R users very unhappy out there.
    Guy, Good point. Indeed, there is historical precedence set by Leica with regard to their R system, and so there is no reason not to think that someday its S users will face the same situation.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Guy, Good point. Indeed, there is historical precedence set by Leica with regard to their R system, and so there is no reason not to think that someday its S users will face the same situation.
    I unfortunately have to agree to that. I was burned myself heavily with my DMR and a complete set of R glass. And may I say I would still be using these lenses if Leica had brought any reasonable R DSLR solution after the DMR. This was actually what I had expected like many others - and not a completely new system.

    WRT to the S system - I meanwhile really love it and would also love to buy in, but something in my brain keeps saying "wait and see some more time ...." because of the bad treatment I got in my DMR days.

    On the other hand I see also a MFD system as something temporary. The S system - as its current status - it is pretty ok for me. And with 1 or 2 more lenses in the lineup it will be even more appropriate for my needs. I actually think that Leica will at least bring a S3 - maybe PK 2012 or maybe 2013. And so this system would live at least the next 5-6 years for me. Which already is much longer than any other system I owned.

    Well, it is all relative of course And I understand that using the S system as a pro one might think different and opt for longer time. But end of the day, even in this situation, if any MFD system should have payed back itself by far in the timeframe of 3-5 years, otherwise I would consider this as a not so optimal business plan.

    All speculations.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    New Phase Camera Body?

    BUT the ultimate camera body is there: Hy6/AFi!

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by xinchenc View Post
    New Phase Camera Body?

    BUT the ultimate camera body is there: Hy6/AFi!
    While I also like the Hy6/AFi I would not call it the ultimate camera body. For many users it will be too big, bulky and heavy - simply that. Taking one with 2 or 3 Schneider lenses on one of my trips say to New Zealand or Argentinia or other destinations would give me some headache carrying and caring for this system. Even my H3D39 with 2 lenses is getting too bulky almost and this is also one of the main reasons I would really love to shoot on these assignments with the S system.

    So I agree, the Hy6 is perfect for studio work or where you have your assistent with you to help setup and carry, but not for traveling far away destinations.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    I need to post a casting call for a full time assistant/sherpa/model.
    What a great idea LOL
    -bob

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I need to post a casting call for a full time assistant/sherpa/model.
    What a great idea LOL
    -bob
    If the long leg model could be assistant same time then I would be happy as well

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    If the long leg model could be assistant same time then I would be happy as well
    Wanted:
    Female Model Muse Assistant Sherpa. 5 foot 9 inches minimum height.
    Must comfortable posing nude.
    Ability to do a good job at makeup and hair will influence the selection.
    Ability to predict when a new cup of coffee is needed is a desirable trait.
    Stamina, the ability to tolerate hot and cold and a grumpy boss all are valued characteristics.
    Must own a vehicle and extensive wardrobe and tolerate irregular pay.
    Please send picture of vehicle.

    am I asking for too much? You betcha!
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 3rd October 2010 at 10:24.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Guy, Good point. Indeed, there is historical precedence set by Leica with regard to their R system, and so there is no reason not to think that someday its S users will face the same situation.
    especially if you consider the lenses are designed for that specific sensor size.

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    I am reading and reading and I don't read anything about what I would like to see released from a MF manufacturer. Does anyone remember the Mamiya ZD ? It was released in 2005/2006 as far as I know and for me it still is what I would love to have. A MF sensor in a SLR housing. This was possible and was built 5-6 years ago… !!!
    It was obsolete at the time it came out because it was to slow it had an unusable display and anything above ISO 100 was let's say not that good. So no need to buy one in addition to your existing back..
    BUT, even then it could have been updated with a P30/P45 sensor and faster electronics. It had removable AA and IR filters. AND, HEY.. it had that fancy ONE battery solution !!! :-) Carrying it around with the dedicated lenses was/is in fact a lighter and smaller package as a 5DII with the L glass counterparts. Do I need to say more ?

    And now, it's almost 2011. Where do we stand ? Well… we all do know.. Let's see what is to be released in the next time an how it will be sold as a "Revolution".

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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    The S2 development cost 27m EUR (about $40m). Each lens cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-3m each. Leica has about 30 people working on the S system right now. Making a brand new camera system isn't cheap or easy.

    David
    Just a thought:

    if one assumes $50 mil for development of whole system, with lenses, perhaps....

    - manuf costs for the camera and a lens at about $5k (min, assume development work solved all initial prototype issues, its just straight production now)
    - soft costs per camera (distribution, adverts, admin) @ $5k per camera

    You'd have to sell.... 5,000 units to break even.

    This doesn't include anything for extra lens sales, but maybe those profits would go into continuing R&D.

    Any thoughts?

  41. #41
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Just a thought:

    if one assumes $50 mil for development of whole system, with lenses, perhaps....

    - manuf costs for the camera and a lens at about $5k (min, assume development work solved all initial prototype issues, its just straight production now)
    - soft costs per camera (distribution, adverts, admin) @ $5k per camera

    You'd have to sell.... 5,000 units to break even.

    This doesn't include anything for extra lens sales, but maybe those profits would go into continuing R&D.

    Any thoughts?
    I think you have to look at how long a life the S2 will have to utilize the R&D expenditures.

    Items such as Auto Focus, body design, firmware etc will not have to be redone entirely over the lifetime of the product. Incremental engineering to continuously upgrade the product will not be close to 30 people.

    The most serious question in my mind is what it will take to use a newer, higher Mpx sensor. I believe that at least one, if not two, sensor iterations will be required over the lifetime of the product. The competition is moving fast (now at 80 Mpx already!) and Leica will not be able to stand still IMHO. I suspect that new sensors will require new firmware at the least but, again, nothing close to 30 people to implement.

    This is of course speculation on my part. So far i am very very happy with the file quality from the 37Mpx sensor currently in the product. I print a max size of 24x36 and do not usually have to do very large croppings. Those who are printing 40x60 or larger and who do serious cropping may need a much larger number of pixels.

    Just my thoughts. I have no information so treat this as one man's speculation

    woody

  42. #42
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Well Woody you hit the nail on the head with the Leaf back it is a 5.2 micron and it is a new sensor so in time and availability of course for Leica they could jump over to this or another Kodak if made 5.2. Time will tell of course but it looks like they could jump up the mpx . Obviously and we don't know yet will it be worth it, but the newer tech in 5.2 is here now. I can tell you today between Jacks 60 mpx and my 40 mpx it is not earth shattering difference , sure it is there no question but can you actually realize the difference .

    I have a feeling that we will see some radical stuff coming as the economy starts to recover. I think the engineers been sitting in a back room brainstorming all kinds of stuff as this cloud passes. Fingers crossed
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  43. #43
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    Lenses designed for that specific sensor format 45x30mm includes that upgrades will only be possible in therms of resolution by using smaller pixels. Upgrading sensor size is not possible any more.

    Anyway I don't see Leica S2 competing with MF, wich by whatever definition (645,6x6,6x7) it is not. I see it as a propietary and very special system wich defines itself through other aspects like built quality, price and therfore exclusivity. Not for the masses.
    A pro using a S2 can satisfy his clients with pro grade quality files, but Leica cannot satisfy pro shooters at its current stage in many aspects of pro photography. (WA, Tilt, Shift, higher ISO, sensor size etc.)

    Oh Guy, thank you for that new hope. :-) I will immediately google "radical stuff" to see what's going to happen :-)
    No really, I hope that there is something new in the pipeline and my feeling is that you allready know something…

    Peter
    Last edited by 6x7; 4th October 2010 at 11:30.

  44. #44
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New Phase Camera Body, Back and Programs in the Works...

    More pixels same area.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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