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Thread: S2 - current status

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    S2 - current status

    I had the opportunity to try an S2 with a 35 and 70 lens this morning. Did some shooting in RAW, nothing fancy, just playing around and trying to get a bit more used to the camera (as one can get in a few hours).

    I later imported the files in LR3 (my first time of using LR after some years again).

    Here my findings - conclusions:

    1) S2 looks pretty mature in terms of current FW. operation as well as IQ coming out of the camera - just talking about DNG!

    2) The lenses are nice to shoot with, very fast AF, spot on - well it was enough light but anyway - and the whole system works very smooth and fast and safe.

    3) Even longer exposure times could be handheld without any issues (1/8 second and the 70 lens) - pretty impressive for such a MF camera.

    4) The results in LR3 are stunning - PERIOD. LR3 made a huge step forward above LR2. And the colors as well as tones and exposure are spot on! I also looked at the DNGs in C1 Pro and they just do not come close to LR3 - which is understood as there is no right profile for the S2 in C1. But here comes the point, I had the feeling since using LR3 again that it is at least as good as C1 - if not superior - in handling as well as IQ. ANd also RAW support, which lately sucks in C1 (mention Sony NEX3 and 5)!

    5) Overall I was VERY pleased with the S2 in its current incarnation. Much nicer to work with and carry compared to Hassi and Phase and others!

    If I had enough money for this I would immediately jump on it and sell my H3D39 and glass. This system is so much smaller, nicer to work with - YES, it actually works like a Leica and I am used to Leica's Reflex cameras since many years. No other vendor came and comes close to this easy an logical operation in my opinion!

    At least I started thinking hard what I could (will) do to change to the S System. It is not complete so far, but for me the S2 with 2 or 3 lenses (35, 120, 180) would be perfect. And the current IQ getting out of this system is already stunning - and it is "only" 37.5MP!

    Thoughts????

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    Re: S2 - current status

    I got to use one for a week and also really loved it. I only had one lens for that time period so it was a little tougher to get a full experience. I guess I just started to add up the costs of adding the lenses and that gave me pause. I will never say never.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    2 annoying issues for me is that pesky 40,000 for a small 3-lens system and no t/s lens/ adapter in the 90-120mm range..but it is a joy to shoot and I think megapixel-wise enough for me too. As it is, its perfect for my personal work..but that doesn't pay the admission price to this party..

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I had the opportunity to try an S2 with a 35 and 70 lens this morning. Did some shooting in RAW, nothing fancy, just playing around and trying to get a bit more used to the camera (as one can get in a few hours).

    I later imported the files in LR3 (my first time of using LR after some years again).

    Here my findings - conclusions:

    1) S2 looks pretty mature in terms of current FW. operation as well as IQ coming out of the camera - just talking about DNG!

    2) The lenses are nice to shoot with, very fast AF, spot on - well it was enough light but anyway - and the whole system works very smooth and fast and safe.

    3) Even longer exposure times could be handheld without any issues (1/8 second and the 70 lens) - pretty impressive for such a MF camera.

    4) The results in LR3 are stunning - PERIOD. LR3 made a huge step forward above LR2. And the colors as well as tones and exposure are spot on! I also looked at the DNGs in C1 Pro and they just do not come close to LR3 - which is understood as there is no right profile for the S2 in C1. But here comes the point, I had the feeling since using LR3 again that it is at least as good as C1 - if not superior - in handling as well as IQ. ANd also RAW support, which lately sucks in C1 (mention Sony NEX3 and 5)!

    5) Overall I was VERY pleased with the S2 in its current incarnation. Much nicer to work with and carry compared to Hassi and Phase and others!

    If I had enough money for this I would immediately jump on it and sell my H3D39 and glass. This system is so much smaller, nicer to work with - YES, it actually works like a Leica and I am used to Leica's Reflex cameras since many years. No other vendor came and comes close to this easy an logical operation in my opinion!

    At least I started thinking hard what I could (will) do to change to the S System. It is not complete so far, but for me the S2 with 2 or 3 lenses (35, 120, 180) would be perfect. And the current IQ getting out of this system is already stunning - and it is "only" 37.5MP!

    Thoughts????
    Glad you liked using the S2. The new firmware coming out in a few weeks is even better and the 120 Macro is a stunner!

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Thanks Peter it is slowly maturing as i said a year ago it needs to mature but as the system gets fuller it is a nice tool to work with.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: S2 - current status

    Yes, it is maturing indeed - of course it could be a bit faster

    But it starts making me happy with what I see today. If there are some additional lenses available in future like 24 or 30 and the zoom and maybe a longer tele, then this is really very versatile.

    But I think the trick is to keep it relatively small and simple WRT equipment. Thus the 120 would become my standard lens - high speed portrait and light tele as well as macro. And I would choose this one also as my one CS lens.

    Meanwhile I made so many experiences with landscape that I know I can easily survive with 37MP - and man - there will be an S3 with some 55 - 60MP one day if I really need it.

    I do hope that other vendors developing new MF cameras from the ground up think in a similar way as Leica did - maybe the next Phase will be an integrated and smaller solution - yes and I am aware of the drawbacks that you cannot use the sensor on a tech camera then. But on the other side the MANY advantages are at least equally important.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Leica is doing a very nice job with the S2 camera and lenses. The problem is that the new Leaf 80MP back is more attractive to me at less cost than a S2 system. With the 80MP back, you could crop out 50% of its image and still have a larger file with more resolution than the S2. And, even if a future S3 came out with a much smaller pixel size of 5 microns, it would only amount to 54MP.

    IMO, to really see these Leica S lenses differentiate themselves from competitors, they must be used on a much higher resolving sensor ... much higher than what Leica has now.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Yes, it is maturing indeed - of course it could be a bit faster

    But it starts making me happy with what I see today. If there are some additional lenses available in future like 24 or 30 and the zoom and maybe a longer tele, then this is really very versatile.

    But I think the trick is to keep it relatively small and simple WRT equipment. Thus the 120 would become my standard lens - high speed portrait and light tele as well as macro. And I would choose this one also as my one CS lens.

    Meanwhile I made so many experiences with landscape that I know I can easily survive with 37MP - and man - there will be an S3 with some 55 - 60MP one day if I really need it.

    I do hope that other vendors developing new MF cameras from the ground up think in a similar way as Leica did - maybe the next Phase will be an integrated and smaller solution - yes and I am aware of the drawbacks that you cannot use the sensor on a tech camera then. But on the other side the MANY advantages are at least equally important.
    Peter,

    The 24mm f/3.5, 30mm f/2.8 and 30-90mm are the next lenses that will be released, most likely by Spring 2011.

    David
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    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Leica is doing a very nice job with the S2 camera and lenses. The problem is that the new Leaf 80MP back is more attractive to me at less cost than a S2 system. With the 80MP back, you could crop out 50% of its image and still have a larger file with more resolution than the S2. And, even if a future S3 came out with a much smaller pixel size of 5 microns, it would only amount to 54MP.

    IMO, to really see these Leica S lenses differentiate themselves from competitors, they must be used on a much higher resolving sensor ... much higher than what Leica has now.
    Yes maybe the new 5.2 sensor out now for Leaf would be nice in the S2 would bring the MPX up some. Of course that is Dalsa and Leica has always used Kodak sensors. So that would have to change or wait for Kodak in the 5.2.

    Certainly a future idea for them. Myself at this point would just buy a bigger back since i am already in a system
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    maybe the next Phase will be an integrated and smaller solution - yes and I am aware of the drawbacks that you cannot use the sensor on a tech camera then
    Phase would lose the tech camera market then. Unlikely.

    But on the other side the MANY advantages are at least equally important.
    but these advantages (really so many?) are only relevant if you use a SLR camera without exception...

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    Re: S2 - current status

    I am thinking that if the S2 camera does not sell well enough, Leica could still recover their development costs overall by marketing these lenses to either Phase One or Hasselblad systems ... assuming they padded the image circle diameters by the extra 13mm or so.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    I agree David , Leica should have been making lenses for Phase and Hassy all along and forget even putting out a body. They are truly a optics company by heart. The market for Phase and Hassy is huge and they would have done very very well for themselves and important to them actually better said extremely important is their pride which doing lenses would have fulfilled them in those respects.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Well, Guy - but that body is so nice to use . . so why should they have forgotten putting out a body?
    No idea how well it's selling, but at least they're making a profit these days.

    Peter - go for it - you know it makes sense

    I must stop reading these posts as I can't afford this camera!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Are they making a profit from the S2. M9 yes but I think they are ways away on the S2 but regardless. Leica is a optics company and if they only made lenses for Phase and Hassy there barrel of cash would be far bigger than going it on there own and investing tons into R&D into one body and only one mount. Anyway it is the path they chose and good for them but from a investment point of view if they opened up there lens line outside of themselves well I think they would be very very happy with the returns. Zeiss is not a bad example of this. Not that the S2 is not a nice cam but the lenses are limited to one mount. When 3 or 4 mounts would be very profitable.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    I must stop reading these posts as I can't afford this camera!
    Exactly! I cannot afford this camera either which is all the more reason why I cannot afford to stop reading these posts!

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Another recent development that I find positive about the promotion and sales of the S2 is that Leica has begun to step up their game in trying to connect with their audience. Must be a different product/brand team than the M9 because they are doing an excellent job with social media marketing via channels like Facebook, Youtube, twitter, etc. with a variety of postings, video shorts, photos, etc.

    Kurt

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Here are some new fashion impression from the S2 from Leica...

    http://www.s.leica-camera.com/haute-couture/?lang=en

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    Re: S2 - current status

    My 120 Macro arrived yesterday...going through the images today they are stunning!

    kg

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by keithG View Post
    My 120 Macro arrived yesterday...going through the images today they are stunning!

    kg

    so please post a macro shoot....

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    Re: S2 - current status

    That sounds like an excellent lens to have. Can you comment on its size versus the other S lenses you may have? I like the 100-120mm focal length on the S2 ... and it's f2.5. My guess is that this is going to be one of the most popular of the S lenses.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by xpixel View Post
    so please post a macro shoot....
    Will try post you something over the weekend, the images from yesterday are confidential, so unable to post.

    kg

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    That sounds like an excellent lens to have. Can you comment on its size versus the other S lenses you may have? I like the 100-120mm focal length on the S2 ... and it's f2.5. My guess is that this is going to be one of the most popular of the S lenses.
    Size and weight are about on a par with the 180mm going by memory...is larger and more weighty than the 35mm and 70mm which I have.

    I opted for the 120mm over the 180mm as I found that to long for my purposes and I also have the need for macro, even if I did not have the requirement for the macro I would of opted for the 120mm focal length.

    Initial impresions of the out of focus area is very smooth, will try and give you a bit more info on my thoughts after shooting a few more images over the weekend. Hope this helps.

    kg

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by xpixel View Post
    Here are some new fashion impression from the S2 from Leica...

    http://www.s.leica-camera.com/haute-couture/?lang=en
    Nice work. If I get this camera is it safe to assume my photos will be this good too...

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Are they making a profit from the S2. M9 yes but I think they are ways away on the S2 but regardless. Leica is a optics company and if they only made lenses for Phase and Hassy there barrel of cash would be far bigger than going it on there own and investing tons into R&D into one body and only one mount. Anyway it is the path they chose and good for them but from a investment point of view if they opened up there lens line outside of themselves well I think they would be very very happy with the returns. Zeiss is not a bad example of this. Not that the S2 is not a nice cam but the lenses are limited to one mount. When 3 or 4 mounts would be very profitable.
    So - is Zeiss making more money from their Lenses than Leica?
    I really don't know the answer to this, but I do wonder.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: S2 - current status

    I loved the S2 when I tried it. Price of entry aside, it seems to be one of the best MFD camera systems for my work. Weather sealing, beautifully sharp and fast lenses, small (ish) form factor, LR3 native support. The only thing going against it for me on paper is the 3x2 format. Ah, if only I had money. Then I could buy an H kit AND and S2... One can dream.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    So - is Zeiss making more money from their Lenses than Leica?
    I really don't know the answer to this, but I do wonder.
    Well the field is wide open for Leica to make MF lenses for Hassy and Phase. Now Schnieder is making lenses for Phase and I have 2 of them and they are really really nice. I see it as a missed opportunity for Leica. If the S was in three mounts a lot of Hassy and Phase folks would jump on them. Certainly there is a market.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Are the H or M mounts even able to be designed for without going through some kind of special partnership or resorting to reverse engineering? Could me more trouble than it's worth.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Because of the appealing form factor, my original S2 explorations was to consider a replacement for any DSLR system, as well as the lower end of the MFD kit ... leaving tech camera and high meg needs to one big camera (60+ meg. or a Multi-Shot) with key lenses.

    As it was, it couldn't replace the DSLR ... and didn't offer enough in terms of practical resolution at popular print sizes to justify the big lo$$ on existing MFD gear, plus paying a premium for a system that costs as much as a super-high res MFD kit (H/60, P65+, Leaf 80) with a larger sensor and more practical aspect ratio.

    Leica lenses are a definite plus that inspire lust, yet both the major players keep upping their stable of lens ... Schneider LSs for Phase, and lenses like the terrific 35-90, plus recently announced improved 50mm and 120mm from Hassey.

    What is the availability of the S2 regarding system? People keep talking about this lens and that lens ... but any investigations into availability make those exceptions to the rule, and that nothing is readably available except maybe the body and 70mm.

    Leica lust aside ... one has to consider reality of what is actually delivered by this kit verses what the state of-the-art from others may be ... and if one could get a nice 3 lens kit even if one wanted it.

    Marc

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Well obviously they need to make a deal and get licensing for sure. Reverse engineering is not the way to go. Phase right now has partnerships with Mamiya and Schneider for glass. Hassy did use Zeiss for years on the V body. For the H they use Fuji I believe
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 - current status

    it all comes down to lust, doesn't it?

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...Leica lust aside ... one has to consider reality of what is actually delivered by this kit verses what the state of-the-art from others may be ... and if one could get a nice 3 lens kit even if one wanted it...
    That's an easy one. The pleasure of using the wonderful body design. The Leica lenses are a bonus.

    Mark

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    Re: S2 - current status

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Because of the appealing form factor, my original S2 explorations was to consider a replacement for any DSLR system, as well as the lower end of the MFD kit ... leaving tech camera and high meg needs to one big camera (60+ meg. or a Multi-Shot) with key lenses.

    As it was, it couldn't replace the DSLR ... and didn't offer enough in terms of practical resolution at popular print sizes to justify the big lo$$ on existing MFD gear, plus paying a premium for a system that costs as much as a super-high res MFD kit (H/60, P65+, Leaf 80) with a larger sensor and more practical aspect ratio.

    Leica lenses are a definite plus that inspire lust, yet both the major players keep upping their stable of lens ... Schneider LSs for Phase, and lenses like the terrific 35-90, plus recently announced improved 50mm and 120mm from Hassey.

    What is the availability of the S2 regarding system? People keep talking about this lens and that lens ... but any investigations into availability make those exceptions to the rule, and that nothing is readably available except maybe the body and 70mm.

    Leica lust aside ... one has to consider reality of what is actually delivered by this kit verses what the state of-the-art from others may be ... and if one could get a nice 3 lens kit even if one wanted it.

    Marc
    Marc,

    I do fully agree with you! This was also my conclusions a year ago when I jumped into the H System - where I am still a happy camper! Now talking about the new lenses for H I am rather disappointed to find out they have to bring new versions in order to obviously keep up with the new sensor technologies coming - so it is nice to see they are investing, but rather bad to see they have to improve.

    WRT the S system - of course it is not complete today, but it becomes a system which would cover my needs from MFD already today. In my local Leica store in Vienna they have 2 S2's in stock as well as 70 and 35 and will get the 120 till December. And the 180 is available without much delay, so I would say this is not too bad. For my needs the 35 and 120 would do so far and if I could add a 24 and a zoom and maybe a longer tele over the years to come it would be perfect.

    If it comes to tech cameras - if I need one, which I doubt in the moment, then I think it is much better to go with a separate MFDB from either vendor (preferably today Leaf and their new 80MP back for that attractive price) and add tech cam lenses as needed - maybe 1 or 2 - which definitely will outperform anything available from Leica, Schneider, Hasselblad and Phase for their respective system solutions.

    So end of the day it comes down to needs. I meanwhile am confident I cannot replace my D700 an glass with any other system, maybe a future mirror less and smaller solution from any vendor could do. But the S2 would allow me to do all my work I do today with decent MF quality, for a high price but offering unmatched flexibility and portability within that system. This is the appealing factor.

    BUT - of course there is my brain which then tells me how much I would loose if I switch etc. etc. .....

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    Re: S2 - current status

    I must say that I'm impressed, even so my mind is more an more set towards the Leaf Aptus II 12/DF LS system, and Assy H4D 60, I still intend to give the Leica S2 system, a full ride test before final decision is made, and can't wait to bring the Trio in to the Hollywood Studios for the ride of their Life.. the girls are waiting..

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    Re: S2 - current status

    The 120 mm macro lens is now also available... will post hopefully this weekend some impressions...:-)

    So there is now 35, 70, 120 and 180... for the S2...

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    Re: S2 - current status

    The S2 would be way more attractive with a 50mm in the stable but I hear that isn't on the cards any time soon?

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