Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 56

Thread: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

  1. #1
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Due to recent unfortunate events (self inflicted ), I'm now in the market for a new back for my Alpa Max plus, potentially, as a replacement for my D3x if I transition to using my Phase DF as my principal landscape DSLR. Budget for new retail is up to the Aptus II-8 ($15k), or if someone can give me a REALLY good reason why, potentially stretch (with some discomfort) to the Phase One P40+, perhaps bigger & better if I can find a refurb or private deal. Above that and it's into competing with a replacement Range Rover Sport ... and the camera loses at that point. The miserly part of me wants to keep costs reasonable as this is my expensive therapeutic pastime and not a business expense.

    My question is what recommendations do folks have regarding #pixels vs sensor coverage primarily for use on a technical camera?

    My Aptus 65 was 44x33mm and I know that I can obviously move to 40mp at that size via the Aptus II-8 or P40+. (or of course I could just get a Aptus II-6 as a replacement). However, the Aptus II-7 (or 75s etc) have larger coverage in terms of 48x36mm for a slight increase in resolution - I haven't done the math but I suspect merely due to extra real estate at the same pixel size.

    The trade off as I see it with the larger sensor is that I would have a slightly larger image area to compose against on the ground glass with mask, which I would find useful but not compelling, vs higher pixel density at the same imager size. The smaller sensor size does have some advantages in terms of shift/rise coverage and lens sweet spot due to the crop. With the Technical camera I don't feel limited in any way as far as wide coverage is concerned as I'm not typically a super-wide shooter and actually stitching handles this for me.

    What I haven't been able to ascertain is whether the 7.2 micron pixels of the II-7 (or II-6) would be beneficial vs the 6 micron pixels of the II-8/P40+ that provide the resolution boost. In an ideal world I would assume yes, at least based on my previous Nikon DSLR experience where big fat juicy pixels = more sensitivity/cleaner higher ISO support. However, I haven't seen anything to suggest the same is true with the MFDB's.

    With respect to using the back with the DF body and lenses, there would be some advantage with a larger sensor coverage in so far as I'd get less of a crop factor on the Mamiya/Phase glass - the one area where giving up the Nikon full frame for wides is a concern.

    Btw, I never did find any closure in the previous threads about the advantages of the P40+ vs Aptus II-8. I assume Sensor+ pixel binning for higher ISO support would be one (not really relevant for my proposed use) but were there others?

    Thoughts & Fall 2010 perspective on this? Any field experience input would be very welcome in helping me decide (along with obviously my dealer discussions too).

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 2nd October 2010 at 22:10.

  2. #2
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Btw, I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone who is using the Hasselblad backs on the Alpa too. e.g. CFV-39 which also looks like a good choice if I were to switch out the 645DF system which I'm not wedded to.

  3. #3
    svema
    Guest

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Used Hasselblad H3DII-39 and digital back on Sinar p2. Now I use DF with Р65 + including on Sinar p2. If you don't remove from hands by means of chamber DF it is valid to you isn't necessary Р40 +. Р40 + who is necessary for that removes without a support on open diaphragms or on closed but with application of function a sensor control + (10МР). At Phase one colors are pleasant more.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    What I haven't been able to ascertain is whether the 7.2 micron pixels of the II-7 (or II-6) would be beneficial vs the 6 micron pixels of the II-8/P40+ that provide the resolution boost. In an ideal world I would assume yes, at least based on my previous Nikon DSLR experience where big fat juicy pixels = more sensitivity/cleaner higher ISO support. However, I haven't seen anything to suggest the same is true with the MFDB's.
    Have not done and have not seen a direct comparision with the Leaf/Sinar backs (though there is a comparision P40+/P45+/P65+ at Capture Integration. I would assume the newer sensor generation with a smaller pixelpitch is about as clean as the older generation of sensors at base ISO... ?
    The 6micron backs with a smaller sensor offer more resolution relative to the sensor plane for a moderate price (relatively). Then again, to me it's somehow strange to use a "small" sensor on a digital "large format" camera, for many reasons. I'd prefer an Apt.II-7 or P45+ over an Apt.II-8 or P40+ on a tech camera. But that has also to do with my lens choices... and stitching to increase the field of view is not always doable.

  5. #5
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Graham with regards to A-II 7 Vs A-II 8; one of the gains achieved while moving from 7.2 pixels to 6 was that we managed to get more pixels per sq/mm without compromising noise and colour characteristics. If anything there's an actual improvement in both areas.

    The 7 does have a larger sensor which is useful to some in terms of lens coverage
    If your work includes stitching then this might be an advantage as you will have larger overlaps for a give ****, which usually helps tools such as Photomerge.

    Both backs are now fully supported in Capture One including Live View on both the DF and any tech camera as well and LCC, so you get another option in using either Leaf Capture's simple and straight forward workflow or Capture One's advanced image enhancement tools.

    Hope this helps

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  6. #6
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,802
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw, I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone who is using the Hasselblad backs on the Alpa too. e.g. CFV-39 which also looks like a good choice if I were to switch out the 645DF system which I'm not wedded to.
    I use the H3D II 39 back with Alpa TC. Very easy to run but you need to supply power via external battery or imageBank through the 800FW port. Cable tethered to my belt pack becomes transparent and it does not hurt to have 100GB storage while shooting landscapes.

    I think the CFV needed a battery off the bottom which may interfere with some tripod mounts. Perhaps Marc W can comment on this.

    Some find a wakeup cable was necessary...I seem not to need it. Without microlenses the lens cast while present is easily corrected in Phocus. This picture shows the magenta/cyan cast with the 45:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/album....pictureid=1339

    There are a few more pics from the H3D/Alpa/45 Apo Grandagon (Now called Alpa Apo Alpar 45/4.5) here:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/album.php?albumid=166

    Bob

  7. #7
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Couple quick things 6 micron backs are a little faster to shoot on the DF. 6 micron has less moire' and also the Dalsa sensors have less color shift over the Kodak versions of the 6.8 microns. Leaf and Phase have there battery attached to the back so a little easier for tech cams as well. Personally for tech cams I would go leaf or Phase. Also the Phase backs P40/65 no longer need wake up cables but to save battery you can still use them with normal latency.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    45
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    How about long exposure? Are all Dalsa sensors limited to less than 60 seconds, 30 seconds for Leaf, is this correct? The P-45+ can still do an hour or whatever. Perhaps a used P-45+ would be good.

    There does not seem to be much discussion at all about using Leaf for landscape, mostly just studio stuff. I wonder why?

  9. #9
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    I think we can maybe squeeze 2 minutes but it better be cool outside. If i was going with a older back for long exposures than the P45+ is it. Also a P25+ or P30+. They are all rated at 1 hour, Dalsa is not in any flavor. The one downside to Dalsa is time. The P30+ is out so forget about that with microlenses. The one thing with the Kodaks is more color shift when shifting so LCC are going to be needed. I don't know times with Leaf and Hassy products.

    Also the new 6 microns from Hassy/Phase and Leaf is noise will be better at the higher ISO. There are some trade offs but myself i would go for a 6 micron even though limited exposure time
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Marseille, FRANCE
    Posts
    972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    The P45+ offers a lot for the price... long exposure, not bad at 400 iso, large sensor size...

  11. #11
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    The CFV backs fit in standard orientation, (i have used 16 and 39 on a Rollei XAct2 and Horseman SWC) and use their standard bottom mounted battery (a sony videocam battery, available in small and large.) I had no tripod or shift interference.
    Blad does make a very trim offset battery holder for mounting the CFV's on the Blad Superwide.
    needed a synch cable to the lens and as I recall, a dummy wake-up shot.

  12. #12
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    On the upside, I don't think you have a bad choice in front of you --

    My experience in moving from the P45+ to the P65+ was about a one-stop GAIN in usable ISO in normal mode, and then of course with Sensor Plus, a tremendous gain to very usable 1600, which in my case was enough to allow me to sell my entire Canon kit.

    As for choosing between the P45+, P40+ and Aptus 8, you have a conundrum. P45+ allows up to one hour exposures -- they do get noisy after 5 minutes, but are usable. Dalsa has a different, smoother look. 6u definitely shows less moire than 7.2u. Aptus 8 is a bit less expensive than the P40+, but the P40+ adds Sensor Plus...

    I'm not familiar enough with Hassy to comment, but I'm sure there is an attractive choice there as well...

    (PS, the 10 MP of the binned P40+ file may sound a bit anemic, but in reality I would say it is as "usable" as about a 15MP DSLR file for detail, then has better tonality and color.)
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  13. #13
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    The sensor plus files from the p40 are much much better than the 10 mpx. I use it a lot
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #14
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Interesting re. The Sensor+. I guess without the AA filter you feel qualitatively that 10mpx acts like, what 12mpx+ from Canikon DSLRs?

    I plan on keeping my D3s & zooms/macro glass primarily to support true high iso & long glass work for wildlife. That where I'd have a problem giving up my 200-400 & TCs for example, or 14-24 at the wide end. I don't see an alternative there with the DF & glass.

  15. #15
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Graham with regards to A-II 7 Vs A-II 8; one of the gains achieved while moving from 7.2 pixels to 6 was that we managed to get more pixels per sq/mm without compromising noise and colour characteristics. If anything there's an actual improvement in both areas.

    ....

    Hope this helps

    Yair
    Thanks Yair, very useful.

    I note that the II-7 / 75 are based on older generation sensors too. Is that still true or have the later generations adopted new/improved 7.2 sensors too.

    I'm starting to think that the II-8 / P40+ might be where I want to be. With my Alpa I had no problems with 3 images merges with the 33x44 sensor of the 65 and it seemed to work well even with 15mm shifts & 18mm rise too.

    I do like the minimal LCC work needed with these backs too - I assume/hear that the Dalsa chips have the advantage here.

  16. #16
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Yes those two backs the leaf 8 or p40 would be great choices.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  17. #17
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Interesting re. The Sensor+. I guess without the AA filter you feel qualitatively that 10mpx acts like, what 12mpx+ from Canikon DSLRs?
    As I said above, more like 15. More accurately, I feel my 15MP of sensor Plus off the P65+ is BETTER than the 22 off my 1Ds3...

    I do like the minimal LCC work needed with these backs too - I assume/hear that the Dalsa chips have the advantage here.
    Indeed -- the nature of the Dalsa sensor design relative to Kodak keeps the color channels more co-linear as the image AoI gets more tangential...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  18. #18
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    The one area I did find the Aptus somewhat more limited was with the higher ISO support. I never wanted to shoot above ISO 200 with it. The Phase P40+ would be slightly more versatile on the DF it would seem in that respect. For the Alpa there would be little to no difference I suspect since the times I'd want to shoot with higher ISO would likely be limited anyways.

    Thinking about it, I never actually shoot the D3x above 400 either. When I need higher iso than that I normally reach for the D3s anyway.

    Conundrums ...
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 3rd October 2010 at 08:05.

  19. #19
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    You can do full res ISO 400 with no issues with the P40+. Graham take a look at these sensor plus shots. Now you know i own this back and for me to say I have no complaints it means something. I'm pretty damn picky. Obviously bigger LCD but we know that. LOL
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379
    also the s2 review shows a lot of nice P40 with regards to noise test check this out as well
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243

    Now I have recommended this back to several folks and not one of them has come back and said Guy you idiot what are you thinking. LOL

    You obviously could go either way with leaf and Phase but if it was me it would be between these two for a tech cam. The Dalsa sensor( color shift to the plus side) and ease of use for tech cams make these two in my mind really good for tech cams. Your only real limitations is long exposures.

    Plenty of Leaf/Phase dealers around you to help as well. The nice part is they are the same company and share there technology and you can use C1 on both backs with full support.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  20. #20
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Thanks folks. Seems like some deals out there too at the moment as well.

    Guy/Jack - you make some compelling arguments for the P40+, particularly if I shift from my D3x to the DF for more DSLR landscape work. I just need to see what it takes to get me into one in the short term vs one of the Aptus backs. There's no great rush right now but some of the better deals might dry up in a month or two.

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    45
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Speaking of deals, since they are now owned by the same company, does anyone know if there is a cross-platform upgrade possible when going from a Phase back to a Leaf back, or vice versa?

  22. #22
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Yes there is leaf to phase and phase to leaf trade In check with our dealers here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    253
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    guy and all of you with hands-on knowledge of this back, could you comment on the P40+ file shown at

    http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dc...l/045.jpg.html

    it's said to be 13 seconds at iso 100. i have no idea how the jpeg has been produced but what i see here doesn't look very promising if one regularly comes to an exposure time in the range of 15-30 seconds.

    thanks!

    --chris
    Last edited by cly; 3rd October 2010 at 11:42.

  24. #24
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Chris,

    I wouldn't place too much emphasis on that. Way too many folks are processing Phase files with LR or ACR and the results are not optimal. Here's a 30 second exposure from the P65+ processed with C1 at ISO *200*:

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  25. #25
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    The bottom-line you shoot Phase process with C1. I would not use anything but C1 on Phase files. It has the best noise algorithms for there files
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Here's a 30 second exposure from the P65+ processed with C1
    in comparision this example in Sensor Super Plus mode (i.e. at web size) is quite pointless.

    BTW: has anyone ever tested how a full rez capture downsized by 50% compares to the respective image shot in Sensor Plus mode?

  27. #27
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    One other area of consideration could be a Hassey CF back or Sinar back which can be used on ANY MF camera via adapters.

    I paid $15K for a refurb CF/39 Multi-Shot with 2 different user swappable iAdapters (H and Mamiya RZ). It was purchased direct from Hasselblad through my dealer. I also use it on a Rollei Xact-II which was already set up for H backs. The back is powered by a common Sony Lith video cam battery which can be purchased in various sizes for extended shooting.

    I put the CF/MS on a H2F and can use it in single shot when shooting outside, or in MS when tethered to a laptop or tower for still subjects. The results in MS rival much more expensive current backs. Pretty versatile kit.

    Using Phocus I have not experienced color shifts on the H2F even when using the HT/S unit, and my dealer had a simple method of avoiding it when and if it occurs with the tech camera.

    Just an option that seems to fit your budget.

    -Marc

  28. #28
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    in comparision this example in Sensor Super Plus mode (i.e. at web size) is quite pointless.
    What are you referring to? My example is NOT in Sensor Plus mode and neither was the one Chris was asking about... And my example above is at ISO *200* !
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    What are you referring to? My example is NOT in Sensor Plus mode and neither was the one Chris was asking about...
    Chris' example is at 100% pixel size and yours is downsized

  30. #30
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Chris' example is at 100% pixel size and yours is downsized
    Oh, you made it sound like mine was sensor plus. I'll post a 100% crop tomorrow after I find the original file.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    253
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Here's a 30 second exposure from the P65+ processed with C1 at ISO *200*:
    thanks, jack! and it would be great (once more) if you could post a 100% crop.

    i'm asking because, for some reason, it seems to be pretty hard to find example files, showing the result of exposure times between 15 and, say, 30 seconds at base iso and a bit higher up. if you got to document the exhibition architecture with its lights in museums you easily come into this range.

    --chris

  32. #32
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Okay, here you go. Keep in mind the wind was blowing about 50 MPH that morning (seriously, just ask anybody that was there) and even with my tripod relatively low, I got a lot of wind vibration during that 30 seconds of exposure, so these look pretty ugly from a camera motion PoV --- I only use them as long exposure examples.

    You can definitely see noise in the crop, but IMO it's not horrible considering ISO 200, which was my original point for this thread. For this image, NR settings in C1 were 25 L, 48 C, and 30 LE. Profile was P65+ Flash V2, film std, and my standard daylight WB and standard sharpening, and my standard sat boost to +8. Everything else zeroed.



    For thread posterity AND an ISO 50 example, here is a shot taken the same morning about 5 minutes earlier, but pointed toward Power Plant 2 which had the Eastern early AM skylight directly behind it. This shot was 30 seconds at ISO 50 in the same wind, so has the same level of camera vibration and is equally useless as an image for other than this noise example. Also, this one was processed at all my standard settings, which were identical to above except NR is only 15L, 30C and 0 LE. Point is to show how much better long exposure noise is at ISO 50 compared to ISO 200:



    Here's the full frame for the above crop for reference:

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  33. #33
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    I was standing next to Jack thought he was nuts it was so windy. LOL

    He almost attached me to the bottom of the tripod.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  34. #34
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    He almost attached me to the bottom of the tripod.
    Hey, I tried, but you were having none of that!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  35. #35
    SCHWARZZEIT
    Guest

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Okay, here you go. Keep in mind the wind was blowing about 50 MPH that morning (seriously, just ask anybody that was there) and even with my tripod relatively low, I got a lot of wind vibration during that 30 seconds of exposure, so these look pretty ugly from a camera motion PoV --- I only use them as long exposure examples.
    Thanks for the samples, Jack. I think even on the ISO 200 shot the noise levels are still ok and do not totally ruin the image from a noise perspective. Can't detect any noise whatsoever on the ISO 50 sample.

    The one problem however I see with all digital long exposures of light sources is how easy they clip. This is not specific to your samples. And I'm not sure how much of the highlight transitions could be recovered from the RAW, but even the ISO 50 shot seems already severely clipped at 30 seconds. It's just one application where film does so much better.

    Here's a 22.5 minute exposure shot on 8x10" Fuji Pro 160S at f/22 with a Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-N 480mm:



    The shot was taken on 2010-05-28, one day past full moon.

    Here is a crop downsized to 1200 ppi which is a little over 100 MP for the whole image:



    It's part of SXF airport about 7 km in the distance. But I wouldn't take this image as a reference for 8x10" resolution. There are so many things that can degrade image detail during long exposure times. I rather post this sample to show how film captures light over time because haven't seen that sort of tonal quality from any digital camera in long exposure photography.

    -Dominique

  36. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    41
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by SCHWARZZEIT View Post
    Thanks for the samples, Jack. I think even on the ISO 200 shot the noise levels are still ok and do not totally ruin the image from a noise perspective. Can't detect any noise whatsoever on the ISO 50 sample.

    The one problem however I see with all digital long exposures of light sources is how easy they clip. This is not specific to your samples. And I'm not sure how much of the highlight transitions could be recovered from the RAW, but even the ISO 50 shot seems already severely clipped at 30 seconds. It's just one application where film does so much better.

    Here's a 22.5 minute exposure shot on 8x10" Fuji Pro 160S at f/22 with a Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-N 480mm:



    The shot was taken on 2010-05-28, one day past full moon.

    Here is a crop downsized to 1200 ppi which is a little over 100 MP for the whole image:



    It's part of SXF airport about 7 km in the distance. But I wouldn't take this image as a reference for 8x10" resolution. There are so many things that can degrade image detail during long exposure times. I rather post this sample to show how film captures light over time because haven't seen that sort of tonal quality from any digital camera in long exposure photography.

    -Dominique
    wow! This looks incredible, I'm going back to film

    Seriously though, although I love the convenience of digital, this film example does look fantastic!

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    561
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw, I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone who is using the Hasselblad backs on the Alpa too. e.g. CFV-39 which also looks like a good choice if I were to switch out the 645DF system which I'm not wedded to.


    Hi Graham,

    Don't forget the CFV is available as a 50MP unit now.

    Price is 11990, the CFV39 is 9990.

    David

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    253
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    This shot was 30 seconds at ISO 50 in the same wind, so has the same level of camera vibration and is equally useless as an image for other than this noise example.
    thanks a lot, jack! looks much better than the example i referred to earlier.

    --chris

  39. #39
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Hi Graham,

    Don't forget the CFV is available as a 50MP unit now.

    Price is 11990, the CFV39 is 9990.

    David
    Thanks David. Does this require a complicated firing process on a technical cam?

  40. #40
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by SCHWARZZEIT View Post
    Thanks for the samples, Jack.

    Can't detect any noise whatsoever on the ISO 50 sample.

    The one problem however I see with all digital long exposures of light sources is how easy they clip.

    Here's a 22.5 minute exposure shot on 8x10" Fuji Pro 160S
    Hi Dominique,

    Excellent points. First off, the nature of color neg emulsions makes them virtually impossible to totally clip. However, the colors of said lights will shift dramatically toward yellow no matter what their original color is; to the point where Red, Green and even Blue lights will all look the same color yellow. The other issue is noise, and of course film is far friendlier for long exposures than digital is, regardless of sensor. However, reciprocity can significantly reduce ISO, to the point where a 400 ISO film has maybe an effective ISO of 50, while the digital sensor is not similarly affected. Regardless, the effect of noise versus grain does not seem to be neutralized, and film retains its advantage IMHO.

    Bottom line is when anybody tells me they plan to do a lot of long, multi-minute exposures regularly, I always suggest they consider using film instead of digital. Given the prices of "older" MF bodies that shoot film and you can still mount your existing MF glass to, it seems an easy choice --- other than that analog to digital workflow process required after the fact. Regardless, the only reason I hung onto one film back for Mamiya is for dedicated long exposures --
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  41. #41
    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    KEMPTEN / GERMANY
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    116

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Thanks David. Does this require a complicated firing process on a technical cam?
    PHASE and HASSELBLAD backs need a "wake up" signal , when used with a technical camera .
    I use the CFV-39 with my ALPA and have the wake up function button integrated in the left grip of the camera . This is very uesful for hand hold shooting .
    I use the ALPA mostly from the tripod and then use the HASSELBLAD H-SYSTEM "electronic" release cable . That cable plugs into the sync plug of the CFV back . That cables function is simply the very same as the sync cable function you would normally plug into the hub of the lens .
    When the back received the wake up signal , you then release the lens shutter .
    That sounds all a bit complicated , but it is not . When you work from the tripod , you are usually not in a hurry anyway . You get used to the wake up procedure very soon .

    There is a one release button cable available from KAPTURE GROUP and also from ALPA . Both are not cheap but surely interesting for hand hold shooting , when your camera does not have an integrated wake up button .
    Regards . Jrgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Not all Phase backs require the wakeup. P40+ and P65+ can be used with or without a wakeup. The downside is battery life is reduced and noise can be higher depending on how long you've been running the back and temp.

  43. #43
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    I guess that's the trade off with the Dalsa Phase One backs - trigger cable keeps it cool and powered up when needed vs always on but fast triggering from the sync cable. My Aptus had the fan going full time so I assume that's what made the absence of the wake up ok vs heat soak and potential noise.

    Btw, what kind of time are we looking at before the Phase One P40+ or P65+ start to generate noise when left on full time?

    Just trying to figure out whether I need to consider the wake up cable or not ...

    Confession: A good opportunity arose for a new P40+ today so I'll be be living off of Ramen noodles for the next month or so.

  44. #44
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Confession: A good opportunity arose for a new P40+ today so I'll be be living off of Ramen noodles for the next month or so.
    Just for a month or so....sounds like you got a good deal

  45. #45
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Just for a month or so....sounds like you got a good deal
    Let's just say that I've had to sacrifice some precious other stuff, which in an ideal world I'd keep forever, in order to make it more "affordable".

  46. #46
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Graham my wife is heading to the grocery store what flavor Ramen Noodles you like , we will send a care package. LOL

    All kidding aside I'm very happy for you and it was a good choice. I can say that since i went through the same decision process and I am pretty dang happy with one.

    Need any help let me know
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  47. #47
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Graham, congratulations on your new kit !!!! Looking forward to seeing some shots when you get it dialed in.

  48. #48
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Thanks David. I'm really looking forward to it. I have joked about it being an "upgrade opportunity" but actually that's how it's worked out.

  49. #49
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,803
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Graham my wife is heading to the grocery store what flavor Ramen Noodles you like , we will send a care package. LOL

    All kidding aside I'm very happy for you and it was a good choice. I can say that since i went through the same decision process and I am pretty dang happy with one.

    Need any help let me know
    Thanks Guy - I stocked up tonight for the coming months:

  50. #50
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Choosing a back for a Technical Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Thanks Guy - I stocked up tonight for the coming months:
    A spoon full of peanut butter does wonders on hot noodles ... a tip from an art school survivor

    -Marc

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •